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October 21, 2020 12:00 pm
The sons of light are joined by "The Street Apologist" a.k.a. Vocab Malone. Vocab recently debated Mormon apologist Kwaku El on Marlon Wilson's The Gospel Truth YouTube channel. Vocab came on The Outer Brightness Podcast to debrief the debate. You can watch the full debate between Vocab and Kwaku here:
You can connect with Vocab's channel Street Apologist Live here:
As all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life was the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon all of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, outer brightness.
Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son.
We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening. However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus and turn away out of this mess.
Brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's finger that is angry that is angry.
That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist Paul Bunyan. So welcome everyone to the outer brightness podcast.
My name is Matthew and my cohosts Paul Michael and I we started this podcast with the goal of sharing our faith journeys from being active faithful latter-day Saints to joining biblical Christianity.
We were all born and raised as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the Mormon or LDS church. We each found ourselves questioning what we were taught as latter-day Saints and were led to becoming post-latter-day Saints to resign from the church and by God's grace we found faith in Christ outside the LDS church as evangelical or Protestant Christians, we have a love for our eldest friends and family and we would like to share our faith journey with them and our goal is to also show those who may be questioning or re-examining her face in the LDS church that life outside the LDS church, albeit scary at first, can be filled with joy, excitement and freedom in Christ is ultimately through and in Christ alone.
We have found our greatest hope and new life through spiritual rebirth, hence the name of our podcast outer brightness and today we are very blessed to have a special guest of us vocab alone is with us on the podcast saw give a short introduction of him in his work and I will dive into some questions regarding a recent debate that he had with the young latter-day state apologist on the topic of the Athanasian Creed so vocab alone, also known as the street apologist. He is a reformed Christian with a heart for evangelism and experience in defending the Christian faith is also collaborated with other apologist such as Jeff Durbin, Dr. James White, Dr. David Wood and Sam Sharon and has interacted with individuals from various groups such as Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, latter-day Saints, atheists and Black Hebrew Israelites's gain notoriety as a witness for Christ on the streets and through his online presence on his YouTube channel. By teaching the word of God addressing criticisms of the Christian faith and performing as a rap artist vocab is participated in several moderate debates and there's many of them and I couldn't find all them bells much.
A few with several partners such as Lazar think you pronounce it from the Saqqara camp of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement, watched a bit of that is interesting on the topic.
Salvation Omar Kaul and Shawn Essman on the topic of Christianity versus atheism where he teamed up with pastor Jeff Durbin, and most recently as far as I know Mistretta one since then with latter-day St. apologist Craig Ruel on the topic of whether the Athanasian Creed is true with vocab being in the affirmative. I have had one since then old man you're an active guy so who did you debates and son debated the Hebrews light on this question is the multinational church, the fulfillment of national Israel. The affirmative ought to check that out work referenda debate talk for you.
Hebrews light debate platform.
Octal got up tomorrow night can be tomorrow night.
Once you hear this, but I have one Saturday, October 17 like your doctor why you just got stuff lined up for months. So yeah, I really appreciate again for your coming on so you also written a book about Black Hebrew Israelites called Barack Obama versus Black Hebrew Israelites on this, my mental list of things I need to read down the road as I know it. Have you written any other books than that I contributed to a book with Anthony Rogers and some other brothers called our God is try you yellow and white book chapter on all answering the question of if that is the Trinity a European concept or invention get a lot of people saying that they they were dealing with different topics more difficult theology. One was different, but I contributed a chapter to the book lots great. So why mention it as a house for you to channel of nearly or thousand videos on nearly a thousand years over 2 million views 25,000 subscribers you reach quite a large audience with his witnessing an apologetics work so we here at the brightness podcast for credibly grateful to have all Your with us and to take your time out of your day to come with us.
So vocab welcome to the outer brightness podcast.
Thank you very much and sorry about the time difference or confusion. I grew up in Utah. Sounds like he's in Mountain time. You know, so I know it's two hours behind and I realized Arizona's eyes getting on mess everything is we don't change your clock so you yeah for sure if this were six months from now, I would've been fine right because then the clocks would been the same as Utah's, I guess, but I think we change you know will you get the exchange and I think November. Starting in November. Yeah working to be on will be essentially unknown time right saw just a few weeks off man LOL thank you for your patience.
I appreciate it so welcome, so apart from what I mentioned in kind.
In the introduction would like to tell us more about yourself anything you like to share your background where you're from. I came to know and believe in Christ, etc. need anything you like to share. Originally from Columbus, Ohio, Phoenix, Arizona for a while and I was reason really strong Christian environment with great examples and then was in high school, you know, so I got almost similar to what some woman say you know where they do make the testimony of their own, but testimony was different for me so that's really when it's for start to get into apologetics was certainly high school sort of his weight up see if I was can take this thing seriously to make sure is true and so was fantastic and apologetic materials help me in that journey as well as specifically the book of Ecclesiastes sews major components of my really my testimonies were like okay to live is Christ and to die is gain and try to do that ever since. And here we are in 2020. That's great. So so from so you like you said you kinda wanted to make sure that you know crap. Christ is really what she wanted to commit to. And if this is really I think I can see in you what what were trying to show is that Christ is not something that you just such as the title you take on. It's really dedicating your whole life energy putting yourself into what we proclaim sounds like you eat.
That's what you will really were considering right is a relies more more. Do right was an all or nothing proposition with her to go all you wanted to be truth. Otherwise, your spinning your wheels, you know, wasting your time living in Lala land and so apologetics again. Ecclesiastes really most important things in the steps of my journey.
It sounds like what you see in your life or how got what God is called you to his apologetic, specifically so you diving into this topic, you go by the name the street apologist so just curious, how did you get that name is a something you gave yourself or something someone gave to you while it's so it ends up being that, but it's kind of like of the way the Bible answer man supposed to be.
If the Bible answer man show can a graph or before Baltimore hosted it and so I host the street apologist, but I'm not saying on the street apologist.
I think I'm a street apologist, so the ideas are hosting for street apologist and the way I got those names is basically different times when I had chances to have different programs and platforms like usually on traditional radio in the past I would sit around all these names I would end up with more names that I liked that I could utilize the time and street apologist was one I was one of the use, but until YouTube did Nestlé have the chance was to sit near my back pocket and then when it came to the what's called a YouTube show us like finally, street apologist, not as awful like that encapsulated were trying to do. Yeah, yes. I also remember us is re-watching some programs he did on. I think I first saw you when you were on James White's program.
I think you're talking about Black Hebrew Israelites either before or after he was going to debate a bike is Hebrew Israelite and so when I first was introduced to you thousand during my faith transition and he also mentioned something that you're also on some eco-backpack radio is that something that's yeah and so that was the first name of the show and the other names are never going to use the idea backpack radio was sort of a hip-hop vibe backpack and representing not you hiking the mountains but representing kind of the decayed Golan college class state and around spray paint is back pocket on the subway trains on the that the backpack is like a city of Metro. It's a symbol of natural life to me is the idea backpack radio was like apologetics that, city environment, by whatever and that's where the name came from, and that went through multiple iterations. The first version guy knew was Internet radio station. Yet for your times a day. What he wanted to. I said you got an idea decided to get on for a long time so we tried it and then once he was an intern anymore. No more show and then I was part of another thing where funding for radio, dropped into my lap and it went straight to the radio station of about 234 years for the exact amount time but again was on national radio was sort of backpack radio 2.0 with a different staff, there are still was.
And then that ended in and when it came on YouTube. First I call the backpack radio there as well and is funny because that time, there is an association with the backpack.
What you see over that shoulder which was not originally why he called backpack, but that backpack actually is a character in Islamist size me with long stories and animated talking backpack guy just along the way down the Muslims present sources inside the pullout. So then it was like what we are backpack radio so just fit but eventually up Becker grade wasn't as descriptive as needed to be as well. Some of the things my block and so street apologist lie became the name for actually had the tank for the magic backpack is my ring tone for those within the people started getting annoyed by it. So I can enter that off you. It's like a hold of me once went to see exactly what he says but I know it like this. Yeah.
When you hear that, you know, five or six times a day. People like RI already so I went in mixer board like that when you we need to up our production.
I guess you're not allowed to touch it. Matthew, I think somebody else to be in charge of it. Sounds good. Yeah but so you so you start talking on the on and shuffle also live stream, we just talk about how we had an interview with Jackson Washburn previously.
So that's a really if you seen it yet.
I really and when you find the time.
I recommend you watch just because we had a really good interaction with them and I think that's how we can start to have interactions. Christians in Latter Day Saints. I think the debate format is a great format also and then were trying to make a space on YouTube and in the podcast from where we can kind of have in-depth conversations, and make it too aggressive, because sometimes emotions get here they get high and then people get defensive and that we never get anywhere.
So it's kind of over try to do so that's that's what Kendall also we wanted to do is to talk about your debate with quake you because I think a lot of times people are turned off by the debate format that they see the ineluctable and they watch the presidential debate.
For example, they they think about how people were aggressive or how they did browser that right. They focus on stuff like that like the personality of the person rather than focusing on the arguments that are being discussed.
So I thought maybe it would be good to talk with you about the actual issues to Flush them out and maybe if you didn't have a chance to say what you wanted to say during the debate than you could expand that further. So I hope that that's good with you.
So that's our view, we can switch to questions and doubts physically about the debate and the topics related to debate which are given a shot yet so I got a question for you and actually really excited to talk to you tonight. You got a lot of stuff in common.
We will have apologist in our name were both rappers and hope to have a beer like years. One of these days so that is my big life goals will just slowly transition from here to there. Yeah, it's too late there's nothing to transition so if you any comments about the debate in general. How did you prepare for.
How well do you think it went well, you know I won a bunch new books I listen to tons of audio and I had a lot of conversations with my smart friends so I was calling Aaron shuffle off all the time just asking all kinds of crazy questions and Aaron pretty much sure has an answer for everything. A newspaper about everything that's fascinating like he's there's apologist to deal with Mormonism but I don't know how many apologist like understood until he understands more men's serve the cultural elements with the geology better than so many people.
It's fascinating to talk about. Also got some philosophy buddies you know that I called up the stone quake and sometimes I felt try to sort of snow people with sort of BYU lights philosophy objections and I didn't want that to happen and so I went kind of above and beyond in some of those types issues. Got really smart friend Moody son Jane merchant talk to some goods about him.
I even had atheist friend is gone for a PhD with interesting views of matter and material that I called up buddy who used to be Christians and atheists. No trusting.
Contact us today so we had interesting discussions well so that was a big part and I found also the Mormon academic world that was really just fascinating.
So you know stuff. Is it trivial meaning. I'm not doing it just because it's interesting look hobby. However, I'm also super genuine curious and actually interested and fascinated so you know I was reading this book that was on published by Oxford you know and I'm like well house asking Aaron on the computer read this book, you guys pray for the author Carol Gibbons in the book those called wrestling the angel the foundations of Mormon thought cosmos God and humanity.
Huge book massive book published again. Like I said hi Oxford account 2015 so somewhat new he's a Mormon academic and what he does. It's almost like one of these books if you ever read a book that like the history of Christian thought.
It's almost like that for Mormonism now you can have to have some discernment in reading it, but he's an academic so he's honest and clear enough you can kinda see through little parts of spin and it was just an amazing book and I found some other stuff like that. It was just so fascinating that kind of this other background to, dip further into this Mormon intelligentsia class that exist, as well as public public published works effectively doubled part of a trilogy, and in some papers, some BYU papers on things like one really interesting when I read was Mark Mormons probably aren't materialists those various degrees he strongly on a different Mormon metaphysic which she recognized was a minority position. So just kind of all the stuff then listen to a certain amount of saints unscripted and things like that but not a heavy diet of that because that's court for trite know YouTube stuff and wasn't as relevant, but I definitely listen to all the debates I could with quake and specifically and so I just taken that defendant not. I didn't get to get to everything.
I ended up ordering a couple things out and get to really dive into like I wanted to but I enjoyed the prep and it was like interesting, getting back into Mormon thought that I hadn't been as deep in to for a while. So some of the things, and of course you know familiarizing yourself the relevant Bible passages, but I was mornings I was meaning sort of more the abnormal stuff. I guess yeah was specifically the really wish that you have been able to get into during the debate just ran out of time. Yeah, but it wouldn't have really been too much about like the question on the floor, but I thought it would be interesting if we would have a chance to actually talk about the what we know about the Athanasian Creed itself mean so I come. It wasn't written by Athanasius. They was not. It was it's too late to be written by Athanasius and some of the phraseology indefinitely. The thought is decidedly Augustine it's it's almost like Augustine's Trinitarian views, summarized in a nutshell, I brought that up briefly in the debate where I said defending Creed here that's named after an African Christian and who thought is is encapsulating an African Christian stop Augustine. Athanasius that was interesting to see because I'm accusing me of doing European stuff and so it's the Athanasian Creed is sometimes not even considered one of the dominical creeds and it's usually created if the church recites it.
If it's a liturgical or confessional church. They maybe do it once a year on Trinity Sunday. Other than that it's sort of fallen favorites Lafayette favors a little bit long and is a little more like hard edged in the sense versus the apostles Creed was, like him, well to be honest, Mormons can almost sign off on the apostles Creed. If they hold certain intellectual reservations.
The Athanasian Creed is a change in that even then they were trying to basely say let's make it where heretic cannot sign off on this and that's what they did and we don't really know exactly who the author is, we do know the general region appears account of originated and called her some different dates about their different ideas about the exact date but that would've been interesting to get into, but the as an increase interesting at sort of the first Creed I think that if a person and has an unorthodox view, the Trinity, the first one I don't think they can get around and that's why in our pre-debate, discussion, quake you didn't want to debate other Creed because I want to do other creeds or more general creeds. He it was Athanasian Creed. Specifically, he had a problem with like fascinating and I knew the debate would would end up being about the Trinity, but I wanted to do it in a different way. I was so I did appreciate that you know things Mormons tend to do.
They want to pretend that they agree with everything that we say is Christians and others using their language euros are kinda hijacked our words and that Creed is very specific and I can see why he would have a problem with it and want to debate that Creed specifically so yeah I think that is pretty proposed.
Debating a creedal creeds.
He picked that one so really excited to talk to you.
Thanks again for coming on the show. I'm actually just down I 71 from from your hometown of Columbus, Ohio, Northern Kentucky, just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati. I'm not really starting with the people you know the people in Cincinnati do the people in Kentucky throw grenades over the border was that they pull out the pin and throw back nice so I'm not from your originalist grub on the associate I can kinda swap places around. Last I can be used yes.
Oh, and the topic really because they wasn't really specifically about the Trinity per se, although in essence that that's what you and quake you discussed but am interested in, and the fact that the debate in the Athanasian Creed. Nothing is interesting that quake you suggested that that one in particular because it is one that makes it very difficult for Latter Day Saints to to sign on to remember you know what I was driving out of the Latter Day Saints faith for 10 years now and and and my dad was struggling a few years back with questions about you know, can I come out of Mormonism. Can he come out of Mormonism and kinda become a Trinitarian and he was reading to the Athanasian Creed and is very detailed as you know I was comical. Maybe I'll start their but his thoughts on that like it's interesting to also live. The topic was worded right is the Athanasian Creed true is because maybe that's not really a way that the Christian would typically trace a debate topic so was that was that phraseology also suggested by quake you will so I have had a strange itch.
Ever since I been doing with LDS apologetic issues to bring out in the open. The polemical anti-creedal anti-Christian theological nature of the first vision, whichever account you want to choose the counselor official because of the lines creeds are been about an abomination, talking to Mormons in Arizona. I would always get this kind of wire you know where friends with you guys. Why can't you just accept us and we got something different. Some truths we want to show you, you know, when you think you see about our doctor.
A very hurtful you know when I got a lot of you know and I think the be more sincere that I got a lot of and I would say yeah you guys is Dr. notes like it's an abomination.
I just can't. An abomination. Why would you say that you notes and abominably because that's exactly what Joseph Smith said about our beliefs in the first vision what what and some of them would know what to talk about some and didn't even know that that line was in there there creeds are an abomination, so I was fascinated by the Mormon move into kind of general evangelicalism kind of but not really because something about yeah that's having this hard-core political edge in the very foundation of the church, I saw a massive contradiction then with the attitude of can't we hold hands and just learned some truth together to know you came out saying Jesus dinner creeds were in abomination what's so I found a massive disconnect between what Jesus is saying in the first vision and what Mormons are professed in regards Walter just a little bit of truth in the Trident Reformation. He couldn't quite get it together in all the stuff right so I was fascinated by the sounds I was when a debate I want to put the feet to the fire, show Mormons, heater creeds, because they hate it because a double theology. Basically, you know they can be nice. Whatever. But basically you blame it on Joseph, whatever.
But that's what I saw.
So I we said hey I got this debate line.
It was quite cool. You want to do okay with like sure are decreed in abomination I was what I said to me that was directly from the lingo, whatever he's like, well, and I'm looking to the sources in this Quakers response know discrete okay that creeds okay just the Athanasian Creed is like okay is the Athanasian Creed in abomination is unlike he has to answer yes and the mumble talking about. I think it's fascinating that he would even say what these other creeds are kind of okay and even sit at one point when there predebate stuff I can't find too much from Joseph Smith, and other audio sources on of the discrete but I can find more stuff on Athanasian Creed. Unlike I know you try to save them like bro you're making your measuring stick of the creature. True, these Mormon authorities like this part of the problem right is what's the source of your revelation or ultimate authority. So I want to stick abomination because it said abomination and he's like well that's such a harsh word of the animal exactly severed, but he didn't want to have it be in abomination so easy, is it true okay will go with that. But I want to put forth the abomination of the last is a true that's fine as well. I would've still kind of half-and-half is an abomination in stick with the language of what Jesus is telling us about ourselves, supposedly the first vision so that's all avenues. It's like sort of a itch of mine always wanted scratch because I think it's fascinating disconnect in the history and a disconnect against all the church history of the real church that comes prior to the restoration and so that's where that came from then I knew it wouldn't be as tight as I wanted to because I knew would be going all over here to be about whatever whenever, but I still wanted to do for that reason that that is why that is why I think that cognitive distance in those realms is utterly fascinating, like, let me show you how your very foundation of everything you hold to involve you saying our creeds are an abomination in Jesus's site that's on. Try to get there. Thanks for that. That explanation I and I got us every three of us. When Matthew, sent us the link to the debate and and suggestively watch it.
We all kind of question that that phraseology knows and is the Athanasian Creed true were like that's gotta be the Mormon suggesting that phraseology but yeah I listen to debate while I was raking leaves in my backyard.
I have so unidimensional the research that you did and I think you did a fabulous job addressing some of the issues, especially given kinda getting into the mind of someone who's who steeped in Mormon theology what what you did going to talking about eternal law within Mormonism and challenging. That point was exactly what I would do is as next latter-day St. because it's such a big issue for them to say that eternal law precedes God right as quickly try to claim so yeah I do think you did really really good job.
So why, why do you think though that that that creeds like the Athanasian Creed in the history of the Christian faith are so important for Christians today.
Well you I didn't grow up in a creedal or confessional or liturgical church myself so I know when I get got older and could look around the church history and stuff like that, you know, respecting the way that people before us were believers try to hash these things out not just saying it's automatically true or anything over the Athanasian Creed I think you can say that it's the essence is thoroughly biblical. The skill places you could ask about how to interpret a line or something like that, but especially in relationship to the nature of the Godhead is a Mormon would refer to it so the creeds can be helpful.
Obviously there's a cut off line. Basically I put for the Athanasian Creed is the last one is the start getting into what the reformers called Romanesque doctrines and so looking at that saying does this describe God. Does this describe Jesus because the latter part of the credentialed Christology and Christology also that shuts the door on LDS stop as well and the weights hashed out so that's helpful because it's sort of guards and protects the faith once delivered for all the saints. These are no sub servient to Scripture. So we had say this is a standard or something.
We don't mean it in the sense of by which everything else is measured by but it's helpful to say does this accurately reflect biblical teaching on this matter. In adults is a helpful way to approach it and the Athanasian Creed I think does a good job with it's not this it is that you know in relationship to the Trinity, specifically in every possible relationship to hypostatic union and in the and Jesus is in his person work think it's helpful there as well. So you know it's not Creed just because of creatures like that tradition because of tradition, even like that. However saying does this match the consommé kind of summarizes and systematized things and more boiled down form and direct form and so that's why they can be helpful things and good memory aids you know to to help us kind of understandings doctrines the how do Christians think about this and try to see all that and a certain beauty.
I think I think the Athanasian Creed is sort of inherent beauty to is well again it Scripture, but the question is, is a true that's the very beginning of my debate. I briefly said this by briskly said Scriptures. What's true if the creeds essence match Scripture that's all we know it's true or not. This is, I briefly said in beginning with the ideas ultimately resting is a biblical sailor at least for the Christian.
That's what they're saying is biblical, not what did LDS so-and-so say about you know I like that one is reviewing the debate is also listening to you, and I think you can to summarize it pretty well when he said that definition Creed another creeds like if they do they defend and defined the good-isms and protect us from the bad-isms yeah that's what I wanted to like break down the essence of what I was what I was getting an online as well. As again is a good definition like a lot of our listeners are probably not familiar with Nestorianism more Arianism. These are all historical heresies and and controversies over the centuries but yeah I think I think you are really just sum it up really well there.
When you just said yeah it's defending what's right as protecting us from what's wrong because like you said if you're not growing up in a cat in our group by the church. We are catechized or redo these creeds.
It's so simple to hear what the pastor saying and reinterpreted in your mind to think you know there's probably a lot of shadow Aryans or or shadow motorists in the church today. For that reason you question them about the Trinity and they can trip up on themselves they don't really understand what Trinity is so yeah I think it's important necessary for jumping and therefore needed so CI latter-day St. struggle with the creeds because as you noted, vocabulary their founding leader now in the first vision claims that God told them told him that that there abomination.
They also struggle with the idea that these creeds are biblical you know what you kinda just touched on in your last response and inquiry to do that in the debate. In an interesting way. So, in his opening statement.
He began by comparing two methods of determining the nature of God in contrast to determining truth about God from either proof texting from the Bible which complains what Christians do or quote taking a step back and think and what makes sense from the nature of God, going to believe in a nature that doesn't inherently logically makes sense to contribute found and can I actually have a relationship with God in heaven." Do you think the quicker set up false to foster economy, there yeah because you know there, like so you know he's not extended in time and space is invisible. Doesn't look like us, your God, is nothing okay how can I have a relationship with this abstract idea is kind of funny. It's like you know if you have more time to hash this out cyclical. Have you ever seen God the father ever seen God the son every seen the Holy Spirit although I don't know how you viewed seen in Mormon theology since he doesn't have his full body and he's got that spirit body still the primary data joke about like slime or so it's like okay you ever seen him, you have a relationship with them so it's it's it's really strange thing like well here's how God is and he's visible to God's invisible but like we haven't given seen them either. By the way, you know, no man is. You will see God unless he has the priesthood.
I think Artie bestowed upon them right. And yet, Joseph Smith saw a guy without the priesthood. Now I know more in some way to deal with something it's always like, except this time, but yeah, it's sort of saying something and it's also a fallacy of like common appeal to the consequence of something meaning well.
This would mean God is like this and I I don't think you can have a relationship with God like that, or you can think of improperly something like that, or does it make sense to me, which is a different kind of fallacy, which is basically a from personal incredulity so it can't be that with the question is will the Bible teach about the nature of God, and it is logical, you know, it's always been the unaided human reason that says will the Trinity doesn't make sense to me know and it's almost like saying something is distinctly different from my experience of creation.
Since I have experienced that. How can that be.
We deal with that. All throughout the will talk about the characteristics of God. Each are now ready to everything in the what's crazy does everything single one of those attributes or characteristics that we realize so leaving the Trinity aside for second these other things you know each finality being a big one. You realize every single one of us.
Mormon destroys so I can't comprehend God being like this but I can understand this. He's like that is literally pulling God down from the heavens putting the little human body and saying I get that instead of recognizing his uplifted place in stature is crafting God as a cow all over again that Decker shows how I was having a conversation about God's foreknowledge and how perfect foreknowledge is kinda necessary for God to have in order to result in predictive prophecy that would be accurate and I was having a conversation with with several different latter-day Saints recently online and in one of them can appeal to the idea that well because Mormons believe in the preexistence and we internally preexisted with God before being created as is. Mortal humans here on earth. Then God has that that whole eternity in the past with us to understand us and that's why he knows us so much so well that he can predict what will do to your point. That's kind of sale is reasoning from okay a father has to spend time with his children to understand them.
Therefore God is a father in that way right rather than going to the Bible and say what does what what has God revealed to us about his nature so your thoughts specifically on on the way that Quaker characterized inferring God's nature from his revealed word as texting when you think about that. Yeah like it is opening a bottle in which one he almost was like I almost took it as this will okay I just gave us a bunch of Bible but that's not really the way to love God want to do that in this debate. Let's do as others. That's gonna happen. It was, I mean really what is it's basically a ticket on frankly is a plain admission. My conception of God's not really derived from the Bible. I mean, so let's not do that.
Let's do this.
Another way is when I can reckon we would get there from here and so units of problematic that's a problematic thing you know to mean because you end up referring to Joseph Smith's King full of discourse instead and it really just shows yeah LDS thought contradicts the Scripture so I thought he would maybe do some more Bible verses.
Instead, he kind of did like well, Jesus didn't know what was coming back, which is no defense of his view of God. It's almost as like this. I mean, unlike you hear that debate with atheist Muslims laudatory here that that's what Mormonism ultimately is just unbelief. It's unbelief about what God said he is who he said he is and why everything is it's unbelief is just saying it's a it's sort of a complicated version of staffing means would I know Mormons who are faithful don't believe that they would think that that's really what it is like God said that that doesn't make sense to be a big God or a monster.
God, Joseph Smith says what he really mean by that, and I'm like yeah God is big. Amen. Best line of the sermon. Whatever the discourse God is big. Now he means big in this other way and therefore the very conception is problematical is the physical sleep putting three things and so I don't what you think is going on here. Russian nesting dolls. That's not what we ever met so you look at it and you realize that's because this is under the sun just like Ecclesiastes is refrain. It's this way under the sun and people take that phrase if a wave is, like, living life, as if God didn't exist with this unaided human reason and no intervention and this is how like that. It's like that's what Mormonism is doing away yet. It's based supposedly on a vision. But, you realize this is just a way for Joseph Smith us to put in the mouth of Jesus what he thought that's really what would you end up with so problematic in its very foundation. But I knew that he was up to something like that.
I didn't know be so quick and so crass, so the debate had very little exegesis, kinda because of that that that I think you did a great job about though exiting the Scripture indignant of the word and showing showing it on what God is shown revealed to us about his nature and you really like the porn you just made about how how, and every step.
Mormonism like destroys the tenets of Christianity that even now it extends to the idea of revealed religion right they claim to have additional revelation from God.
And yet if you if you challenge that you know than the may even challenge the idea of revealed religion right in my cube like you were saying with what they could do it right. I can understand it. Therefore, it can't be true.
Rather than looking up at the Scripture and say okay what does God say about his nature, and therefore, what are the implications instead as you said, it's a different form of scoffing so yeah, thanks for your comments is damaging to worship the creator.
Rooms are the worst of the things in the creation written creativeness. They literally tell you they basically tell you they're doing and how we could get knows is committed to that Quaker several times also said that while there's many ways to interpret passages so that's all we have all these thousands of denominations and advocate the logical fallacy, but it's almost like well there's 100 choices. We can't really know much. So which one it is so is just not make a choice at all, or I'll give you my choice, think so.
It's like, well, you know, some even bother the Bible because you know you can just interpreted this way. That way, so was just 9.2.
It's always just talk about what makes sense like this, when I got out of his opening statement.
Yeah, I know mean, can everything be interpreted any old way. You know that really true even with misinterpretations is probably a limit to what they could bear. But that's the case, the first vision to be interpreted any away and that's actually what you see when you get into the literature. A lot of Mormon intellectuals today are less anti-creedal so they have these qualifiers in all these caveats are still certain anti-creedal and when the phrase things, whatever.
But there like maybe I actually I threatened one at the end of the day I put up the iPad and showed it and I can bring it up as publishers. Year by different Mormon author music brashly misunderstood what Joseph Smith was saying about the creeds, so my point is that in a play that game of the Bible play that game with anything Joseph Smith or a general authority said to use to have this problem of interpretation would see that's where the doctor the purpose cutie the word of God comes and you know the main plane things are main point and and when you look at these creeds there. There are so many churches throughout the world that that hold to them, even ones that that would hold to things that we were probably considered to be something that's anti-biblical, but like the Trinity look at the creature guarding the Trinity are just so foundational Christianity, it's not. It's not talking about church government or secondary issues. This is like this like that the basis and when you really study the Bible out in all these issues, yet you can really find it's not just that's what we are all credibly doesn't is that Latter Day Saints is catlike. Well, these are all just made by men are just philosophies of man mingled with Scripture to use a phrase in that letter to Santa yet insist it's just because something it's invented and there's no typical basis for boat when you're really set that aside that some society can say oh I mean sure it was fine it so wanted to talk about the first one the first foundational issues that you brought out in your opening statement about biblical monotheism.
So in your opening statement. He stated that there is only one creator God who is ontologically unique, qualitatively different distinct from creation, not on a continuum with the created order, and a necessary being not a contingent being so that is a lot to unpack, but in general, could you explain a bit more. Why defined biblical monotheism. This way and wiser from points it lies in part for Christians understand hold to this biblical monotheism will part of the reason I did it that way is to head off at the pass him referring to and he didn't really do and I don't think divine counsel theology is way to escape from the conundrum. These can have when it comes to LDS conception of God versus the biblical conception of God. So a lot of LDS folks have missed used Dr. Michael Heiser's work. For example, whether you agree with not different question of how do you properly utilize it, and he spoke on this basically said you guys are misappropriating what I'm saying. And even if you I don't I don't hold to some of this larger supernatural story that is put together by some of the Heiser rights where you got the book of Enoch influencing you know what you think happened and things like that. I don't hold that, but it seems I can understand some of the big picture items what's going on in the big picture item is there is lots of Elohim divine beings that could be godlike but is only one Yahweh. Even that's even Heiser says that's what my point is, instead of just saying there's only one God, which is true but I'm sorta heading off in the past and kind of really drilling down the just the goddess of God. The distinctiveness of God which part of what makes him worthy of worship and so ontologically unique. There is no being like him again even the divine counsel people of the Christian ones, not the wild ones who, whatever, whenever, qualitatively different. You know, because they kind of have a God. And this relates to our sources, not on the continuum with the created order. You know they basically have similar to prosperity theology cats produce cats, dogs produce dogs.
What does God produce that which is 21st of August.
Didn't God make the cats and the dogs to know that for the get in the will of God is creating us in his image were of the God kind just little genome for the little dog Dr. basically prosperity theology and that's kind of really we get going on an LDS story. And so, where the same, or the same kind of God in order to step one and he's a step 32 whatever right and so drawing that out in a way that I is biblical so I think you know I pointed to prove text for some of those points more distinct from creation one in a necessary being not a contingent being now granted that's somewhat philosophical but I'm a tell you again this is this is intentional adding claiming to be the philosopher of the ages, but I wanted to show Quaker if you're going to do this like I've seen him. I felt like try to snow people kind of quasi-philosophical objections if you're gonna do that I'm setting it up already to make it difficult for you and I can go there with you if that's what you're going to try to do so.
I understand everyone. The audience isn't like contingent on what that is understood. Everyone's not going to wasn't really just for that was for other things that are still true and untrusting we were to get everything nonetheless is so course necessary.
No that's basically to me.
I am God said, I exist.
IBI is not a contingent being dependent upon something else was always here therefore dependent upon something else LDS story really is a different story and it's confusing about what's necessary contingent.
I don't I don't that's that was my cross-examination questions had to do trying to draw that out what is necessary contingent. I did just saying those things are from to draw that out with an LDS story. What's what and why and how is ground. The next thing that is after it and all that kind of stuff and was mean for it to be after it is everything eternal in that case, house is not just monism you we can get all that doing that so I do find it in a way that even Heiser rights an audience to go. That's right okay and then also if he tries it will Michael Heiser says I Artie got the God definition you will go back to this on so you I know you can do divine counsel to get away from this so that it happened. That's why that was there partially to just jump in here. Sorry that that's correct. I wouldn't call myself a Heiser, but I do enjoy reading your stuff and I read his stuff, primarily because of you are starting to see Latter Day Saints using since I wanted to really see what he was saying and what I find interesting is that Latter Day Saints will just completely brush aside the fact that he says look Yahweh is species unique. There's like mafic that will then you're missing the whole point of what of what he saying about what the Bible is saying about divine counsel said he did a talk on this and he said the Mormon understanding of my work would literally turn my work upside down right you would like it for the whole point of what he's really saying whether he again, would you agree with not buying to all aspects like but even the smart Mormons amongst them.
I felt like they do that kind of thing a lot with other people's with all kinds of stuff you know, the… No that's it's not what you're trying to do no deification.
You know that no no no no stop. That's not right that's not fair that is not cool guys and I'll see that allow at the early church to you like I can, a time saved ramp. I think it's a quote from Justin Martyr where he refers to Jesus as the second God and I like seeing they believe in two separate gods in psych while I mean you can just pluck out church history, quotes like that because it is funny. It's like they lost the gospel. You know this great apostasy the way you know which is the loss of the authority and the like, look right here with this guy said it's like everything is false and they go digging through church history to find what's true and that's why you're here, Quaker sale August 11. See the closer you are, gets away farther from that nosecone stuff with her using kind of Justin Martyr seems like there's element see where he had. He didn't have a fully biblical understanding of the relationship to the father, son, and it's like yes you're imitating some of this error but I don't. In a way that Justin Martyr would most especially of Justin Martyr because I don't and you did have access to full Canada's indications he did not like. But that is what I'll do.
It's like bro, I know you haven't read these guys on this and if you quote them on this one about this. You know the Saints about Athanasius is like. Do you know Athanasius is not the incarnation like what what is this you know, take away with very disingenuously the whole project among the intelligentsia and the popular guys will they grab these codes of the intelligence you got in there, utilize them in very rarely do they know what's going on, but they it's real abuse of the patristic screen not to be mean, but then again you know it is coming up on Reformation day here so whatever sort like Roman Catholics act like they own early church history, and all the stuff supporting Romanesque ideas when not set the casing of the church fathers are in unison on everything they're doing their own thing a different stuff whatever whatever and that sexy partially with so amazing about these creeds is how they get all the big stuff right in there it is. And that's what they were teaching people getting baptized being new converts and stuff is like all right there we got the big stuff right okay are we go bad. Amen. You know God worked it out with those with those first generations in the first creeds as far as that big stuff that's good, and wanting always are about to Latter Day Saints as a star Michael just one quick read is is you know, a lot of times we think that the type in church history.
The doctrine you know that it was awesome. During the time the apostles and it slowly got worse until the Reformation, but then I think was it who is it, we can hear.
He teaches the church history's cereal. Steve little loss in my PC water might be Godfrey. Maybe, but he was saying it's actually opposite. You know like right up the apostles receipt is huge's sharp in a recession and an understanding know Gnosticism was creeping in at always different heresies Arianism is creeping in the debt there's a Dodge is controversy. There is so much stuff that they had to deal with in the early church and it was gradually over time. When you see them working these issues out and more codified theological language there really start to figure out okay.
How does the human nature of Christ relate to the divine nature of Christ is a two persons is it two natures in one person, which is how it ended up deciding it through the scriptural witness sows and Arianism I quote Christ is created so they may develop the Nicene Creed I can overcome that. So we see throughout time, a goddess, even though there were people he could quote and say here's the here's where he agrees with me on this thing is any agreement on this thing and they might not be biblical but we see God working through time.
Slowly you know, leading them towards truth and granting relight understanding of Scripture.
So I was just mentioned something to do is you overcome your talking about how the just cherry pick things from scholars in early church fathers and I might merely do the same thing with the with the Bible to you know the Bible's only correct as it's translated only true is translated correctly and it's been corrupted and plate impressions true is been taken up and you get to the barber talks about baptism for the dead old man that reversed right there is hundred percent translated correctly in the Institute. Duncan someone for adult Hitler all right yeah like okay you know just you can't. You can choose to use the argument that instance corrupted.
If you can use that I can use that God is spirit. You understand that he is not but you can bring up you I talked to Latter Day Saints a lot more of materiality guy myself so I like to talk about grace and I'll be talking about forensic righteousness and a couple friends broke kind build this foundation in their will be cornered like okay like yeah this is what the Bible seems to be teaching and then their escape hatches well I don't know if I can ever leave like Mormonism and become a Protestant because I can expect the Trinity is a little completely if you see that happen before I happen to be on time and just change the topic to the Trinity and be like, I can trust this hurdle and just delete such a stumbling block for Latter Day Saints is asked why you think that when it is well you know there's certain strands of political thought build into the foundation of the LDS story, discussed know supposedly a dislike for creeds, for example discounting of church history and of course a strong anti-Trinitarian strand and even you know this, going around at the time because he only had the first great awakening weakening, which was more reformed or Calvinistic in his essence. Then later on, you have a strong anti-Calvinist strand within a lot of folk American Christianity Mormonism has all those elements. It's almost like what was happening in certain grassroot level can do it yourself counted denominations in a way, just kind of embraces all those things and so one of them is antitrinitarian is missing be very present with a lot of these groups of the time you know later on you. You minutes later, on the unity skewed with Jehovah's Witnesses and it becomes his main thing because like that's the Greek philosophy and that's part of the corruption and it would destroy their understanding of of of the material universe would destroy their understanding of how many gods there are. You know it's not tritheism for this sphere. It's no monotheism in a Trinitarian understanding so just becomes this big thing, like also, the prize that they hold up of what they call free.
Free agency or agency as well is very very important so sometimes like you see some of them LDS members will will, maybe I could but not that communism cannot visit such a strong thing build on there that's fine. They just Jesus just just get Jesus you know it's it's all good, but you see that kind of stuff really hammered and hard and it's it's somewhat similar in some ways to what you see with Muslims. Maybe I could accept Jesus is dying. For this you know this Trinity.
That's one of the big stumbling blocks. The triune nature of God is a massive stumbling block near the Koran in its in its Scriptures and it's saying do not say three do not say three in the means don't say God to Trinity right did survive did however tell tell anyone it took to take your fertility want to take yourself and your mom is God's no I didn't say that Jesus says to Allah, you know it's antitrinitarian baked into the very fabric of the religion and like this marker. It's as big massive marker of orthodoxy and orthodoxy. Also, sort of.
Are we going to Bauer needed Scripture like this. It's very important, as were biblical Trinitarian's is why we hold to it and so it just shows the kind of the negation of all that, and that's problem problematic you know and it's only because there's other sources of revelation this other ultimate authorities and so this can be rejection of that with a way that shows how unique the Trinity is you.
Everyone says it's like something else, but the other day he noticed no one except except for Orthodox Christians know the small low. It's like everything El Camino everyone is so cool with not cool with it.
It's almost like the Trinity equal salvation, but you notice that, like that's that's one of those things almost always rejected across the board with all false religions including LDS theology is can I bring up to that of every sleigh start talking with a lot of oneness after oneness Pentecostals are just one is not sure exactly register group on Facebook of oneness and when they try to interact with me their whole worldview is just completely different from ours, so that when they even tried interact with me.
They ask questions that are just in completely different categories than what we would use. They say so okay when you talk my Jesus when he says he's God is at the spirit part of Jesus or the physical part of Jesus, you know, it's like they can't wrap their minds around the categories were trying to think and were trying to show them in. Okay this is how are categorizing because the Bible says this you know are not thinking it were not dividing Jesus into God is the spirit part and then the divine pardon in on any like the father is as part and the sun is this part so it's it's come.
Same thing with Latter Day Saints. It's like they don't understand the concept of one being in three persons, because it's so like you said, and this is so baked in a worldview that person equals being so to say three persons that must mean three beings and I think it makes sense in terms of when you're talking to humans because I'm a human being your human being, but and we don't share the same being, so they say well how can God have three persons.
What one being that makes no sense to me and and then also say the Bible doesn't say that. So it's just really hard to get over these these theological hurdles used in all these terminologies are so foreign to them stressing largest almost like the Muslims of the Mormon just can you.
Could you embrace this concept or idea is an overarching principle that God could be different unlike anything else in creation is a possibility could be like that. The Muslims a little more like willing to say yes, there still reject the Trinity, the Mormon it seems to be the answers to snow will and can be like that. No affront alike will of its material.
It's no nothing. You guys are atheists actually sell a lot of the literature, saying Protestants made atheism the most propagated religion in the world because there God is nowhere. At no time and is no think is a nonphysical, so were propagating atheism Meyer creeds was an accusation I saw in the literature is fascinating way to look at it now seems more more more ileus these days. Kind of a willing pressure to Leviticus a yeah we do believe in it a different God, but a number I was trying to defend Mormonism united together. Trinity's totally false and man-made, that is not a make or break it, saying you know Protestants are still Christian United try to say that it's not a is not something that is an essential to Christianity. United try to just leave that under the rug. As I said, I can see that a lot too. And so is it in your opinion, would you say that it is crucial to believe in the Trinity and if so how do we explain that to our LDS friends and family. God must be accepted as he has revealed himself, but sometimes I feel like when you answer these questions.
It's tricky because it's like do many of us have the exact conceptions are right exactly I don't point to ministry on everything but I'm okay when people say the mystery of the Trinity. That's where the LDS apologist see it's a logical and further to say it's a mystery but I think that's okay. In the Bible use the word ministry not specifically relationship the Trinity, but it does speak about God's thoughts.
God, he's different. You know, and so the Trinity is an example that so you know it's very difficult to really understand what were talking about we talk with the gospel without understanding the father the son spirit of the persons involved becomes a pretty messy and so it it really is important because so much of the biblical narrative does not make sense without the Trinitarian understanding and you can't do justice to so much Scripture without an understanding of course either the Trinity you know that that book I mention wrestling Angel is interesting interesting section on the Trinity as well lately. Initially, one part this is from wrestling Angel Ridge report one part of the of this book by by Terrell Bivens. Check this out Mormonism's rupture with traditional Trinitarian thought like Unitarianism represents a rejection of the Nicene solution, but it does so by moving in the direction opposite to Unitarianism instead of reducing the Trinity to one Mormons expanded the unity and Trinity 23 physically distinct, fully individuated persons trace their doctrine of deity dismiss 1820 theophany which you claim to personally. Behold, God himself who peered in a shaft of light and did in reality speak to me.
Mormons, however, may see in this visionary episode more theological illumination than the young Smith did they have a size, for example, a radically new conception of divinity revealed at this time Smith here learned the father and the son are real separate beings with glorified bodies of flesh and bones. Actually, it is difficult to know exactly what Smith concluded about the nature of the Godhead from this experience in one of his very first subsequent references to the vision. The only important. The only important registered with the assurance that quote he had received the remission of sins that Smith did not even reflect immediately on experience. Trinity is evident in his lack of attention to the very question of number when describing his experience. By the way, that's where the spin comes and try to account for the differences in the divisions. Therefore, if you get to know you guys lab to the audience. Just a few sentences left Erickson finest is fascinating the way this is right in his earliest 1832 account. He recorded that the Lord opened the heavens upon me, and I saw the Lord and he spake up to me saying Joseph my son but they said they sins are forgiven, leaving unclear whether his two uses of Lord referred to one personage or two in succession, really.
He's only saying that because those provisions obviously different. The same person, but whatever. In his 1838 retelling and all other first and second hand accounts Smith more clearly indicated that he saw two personages, one of whom spoke to me calling me by name again noticed you. It's not. Let's exegete Scripture or anything like that. I know there's only come paragraph. But honestly, folks, it's clear let's exegete the first vision the second vision the third vision you know the different accounts room Frank let's exegete the Council division and find out what we can glean from that and exegete the king for discourse and exegete. That's what's going on executing and and it's a real real shame, but I found that helpful but also interesting.
You know he keeps, hinting that he gets into a later selling your Quaker when others like them say what were we were when we could be Trinitarian if you consider social Trinitarian and that's not true. Accurately, if this writer if you read on the eastern fathers on the scene of the Gregory's and all those guys. They're not advocating what Mormons are advocating the social Trinitarian solution is not a solution for them either.
But again, they just co-opt the stuff that sounds like good and I like seeing more of the Easter model, not the know that's not what you hope to visit read those guys. It's not what you're saying at all. The differences are so great between East and West that the East can fit inside of it. What Joseph Smith was saying just it's not it's not real so it's disingenuous to act otherwise. But that's what you see lollies apologist doing these days, lease, and I've seen whatever is not too late and I was novice LDS apologist, you just kind of point to Paul at Mars Hill anything.
I found this description to the unknown God whom therefore you ignorantly worship him.
I preached to you and see you know they didn't know what God is like what he says they were still worshiping him ignorantly so you know we all have the same God says he does not dwell in temples made of Hansen Mormons like God lives in houses in these physical ways is living somewhere yeah but I mean you guys are preempted.
Take away my final you know cherry picking the apartment that supported my my beliefs, you know, of course, I never brought up that part we mentioned there really got into it a little context too much to tell her you're a good woman apologist. I was like the best ever came out. I serving the Bible like what is this is taken using boot to the Christians.
This whole time with what on earth is going on the at 1724. The God who made the world and everything in it be by human hands. So what about more apologist best argument I'd say that is you know it doesn't say the word Trinity in the Bible. I'm skating is not the best argument but just a unity ceiling. Okay, the Trinity is not taught expressly in the Bible you if you did point to something just to do a quick remodeling that what you think you go to would be well you know I like the benediction in Corinthians 28 people say on but were all three persons are mentioned in clear there's a coequal aspect to think those are important to mention some of my opening statements so here's these verses you know what you do with these bozos number passages to explore, but it's hard because the kind of gloss over income of good other stuff or ask the question, but if we could sit down and we look at these individual verses and see what they really say what what do they really say because how do you out of how we explain all these verses putting together otherwise we don't have a God who is trying and you know what I mean.
Again, it's the physicality of the Mormon God disallows Trinitarian conception by debt. They are entered antithetical by definition for the kind that fact alone, you know the in nano forced a plurality of God's will as well. I think it is completely impossible and contradictory to the understanding when you've got the father and Jesus, both having physical bodies and as a Dwelling in the heart of man. You know you you have to be. The Holy Ghost is inherently one of these limitations below that different limitations in it just changes the entire gospel down to the very and if you don't accept the Trinitarian position. You know the things that are Quaker who was was talking about.
Like oh there's this law that proceeds godlike gospel path proceeds God and it just really isn't that special. You know we should just be worshiping that other stuff. Instead that's the case, yeah that's with sensing like some is a wonder Mormons really worshiping God. I don't mean we know that something conception of God. But it's like what exactly are they praising their deities. DD, for you know it's it's a sort of strange things and was like God I love you so much for us. Help me get what I want.
I would say that Joseph Smith gets more praise all praise to the man what's what's what's what. It only says all but praise to the man them, which on quickest channel is a video of him singing a song praise to the man, Joseph Smith, the real thanks is normal.
I would think Joseph Smith right now for giving us the revelation that we can become God's that's kind of what it sounds like he gets more praise because I don't really know exactly what Ellie father really deserves much credit for it with any with any with any seriousness of doctrine. I think that my point to their conception of free will or free agency right where where war in heaven was fought to preserve that principle that gift that God was going to give people I think that's what they would, but I think they were probably appointed were really estimating him worthy of worship is that he gives that to humans. Yeah Jesus's plan help save us from the Calvinist devil in him of the cow is working to force the ball to accept the plan of salvation is a perfect statement of 22 I serve a mission in France and Belgium and the song praise to the Man in French is even more explicit. The first the first line is glory to he who saw God the father and that always struck me as even weirder as Ivan as a missionary is like okay praise of the man is a nights push in line, but like glory to him.
It's like that's way over the others of those funny scribe glory to you, Joseph Smith, glory yet stuff stuff so every Re: Re: question eight Michael Africa area.
We are okay alright so so in your rebuttals section of your of the debate. You focus specifically on addressing the definition of the Trinity as compared to the Godhead as believed in LDS church so he also compared how Christians believe that God is the first cause who created time, energy, matter, space, and the laws in our universe. While the traditional obvious view is significant.
A different so we talked a little about this throughout the discussion, but is anything you'd like to add to this concept of of you know the traditional Christian view versus LDS viewing and so why is it so important for LDS to understand these issues. It seems very metaphysical, very philosophical, but why is it important for them to understand all us what you know God's creation and the fact that he is the one who created all these things it really is tied in with the sovereignty God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. How the Mormon God really does though because that stuff is already there and he crested legacy makes the cattle how how to seal the cattle without meaningful way. What about it is of him and how is it that we live and move and have our being. With that kind of conception and a real robust sense doesn't seem that we do. John 13 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life know see the very source of this life was the light of men know I believe I read in their Colossians 1. At some point during the debate, not mistaken he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, and we look at data understand some of the interpretations. This is means preeminent prominent.
For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities seem to take this serious. If you've got God over there got back there this is saying God did all that we know they localize in all this, but it's not taking the language serious anymore.
It sounds like John and Paul thought the same thing about this issue, though, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him and he is before all things and in him all things hold together. How is it that these needed to hold them together if they were already there remain that's unclear how that works exactly how does he have that ability and you go on and look at it like wow that's a common worthy of worship. You know, not just sort of the home decorator God of Mormonism know stuff, messed up its fix it up here for the put this on that shelf and healing home decorator you know he's Bob the builder the tools and analyst stuffs out there. The planks and all that he did what that snaps not get this, rearrange, or God you know who's taking cans of Plato and making it look I got a French riot made that's not enough sand who God is. Someone who is in the Bible is never that way but that's that's the conception of God is just, just trying to say let's go big. Let's see how big an amazing and powerful and utterly epic.
God is let's go big Lucy with the Bible really says let's take it way out there.
That's why it's so great was spent time in this passage is Isaiah conflict when Christians go through and read those very unique passages in Isaiah's want to break out of worship, called it at the end of Romans 11 in the morning just sad in a way for them, and the pride of joy really enjoying their creator there sitting there that can't be right or how can I explain that away or looked localize that that's not really what that means are the most frequent part of what I can be true because what Joseph Smith here. It's so sad just robs their joy. John 1010 the thief came to steal, kill and destroy. In part of the beauty of big creature who actually is improper, relation to God. As you know him and enjoy him for who he is and he could see that and it makes you want to break out in like wow Mormon submittal time polemical against this whole description of God as he reveals himself at the deer being robbed of the beautiful privilege of really worshiping God in his fullness in getting a vision of that you know it's just a tragic tragic thing that God created the heavens and the earth. So with which of the galaxies is not the one that the God of Mormonism organized right which of the wish of the galaxies is the realm of some other God is good, since this really mess you have always been a stargazer and I'm a love like the Skyview out. I'll probably go out afterward on the night and see what I can see you know, pointed up at the sky and look at Venus look at Mars I can.
Thanks. I love doing that. I've always loved doing it and after I left Mormonism. I commented to people you know that it was totally different. I felt like I was really worshiping God for the first time with joy and with love and awe and wonder. You know, because of how great and amazing God is. He created everything is as you quoted invisible visible and invisible, and that that passage destroys the idea that there could be another galaxy or another star supplants that that is rolled over biased by a separate God is present be applied to every God over every locality and it's ridiculous. We know your experience you to share their Paul. It's literally the opposite of what the LDS apologist tells you or your God just like an idea in your head is really nothing that's very impersonal and you know what the actual experience is the opposite of what you being sold. There is a bill of goods know when you strip away all the layers of creation.
You try to throw on top of the creator to make them more like us when you strip that away servicing for me is almost like we pray that the LDS members in an amount Transfiguration experience in the sense you were Jesus or he temporarily unveils who he really is in a way and they see the score and the law that you know will we hope for that for for people we care about her and the LDS organization to be able to see that the actual transcendence of God and doesn't leading like a letter weird space alien which, ironically, the God is a spatially but instead of doing that you like wall and a creature is in all when they when they come see innocence their creator for who he is and it's a beautiful experience is not a bad experience sort of rapturous and away in oh and were created for that, you, you know, it's a kind of the desiring God. The Christian hedonism. I did its delights him to revel in that necklace also saying you know where that is the Mormon ones like God Scout-like and he's like a guy in the neighborhood he just been here longer and always at a house the longest house got a lot of updates itself is guy neighborhood or Chancellor got busy like his own crazy Job is on the street but his keynote like no that's not it is the old earth is his footstool brought him back to what you said earlier to like you said you talked a lot a latter-day St. say say what you so you just want to worship God in heaven yells for that. Like I was going to do that.
You just do that here. You know, etc. so Dante love your good exactly absent.
So some so mundane to them. It sounds like bullring worship God in heaven for a bit but when you really understand how unique God is like. I think that was one thing that really heavy when understood.
You mean there's nothing and no one even close to what God is like, you know it when you have this idea that there's this infinite regression of God's is catlike yes as part of the chain and I hope to become like that someday like when you understand there's nothing and no one like God, and no one has ever done anything like he has is completely unique, like there's nothing else you can witness. You can go know we can go to the Grand Canyon and see anything like that, you can go to the Great Wall of China and see anything like that. He's totally unique and that's just mind blowing like it just it just makes you almost makes you feel small and away you know it's like you're opening up to Brandy world you never even thought of. And it's like you know is latter-day St. hours felt like will. God is just like me so he can relate to me and it seems weird that God is so much different in other than we are.
Why would you want to worship that, but it's like when you understand that you understand it and what is not anything that you are mindful of him in the Son of Man that you care for them. That's where the beauty comes in. You like wow you know it's it's it's like you know you're special like everyone else. You know, the telling God's special know I'm actually special to get the actual Valentine sticker that says you're special not special like everyone else – so Michael just yeah just a quick side just as well with him and Matthew are saying hereto is currently in like Mormons you know, one of the things that are so excited about in the celestial kingdom is not only are they given Bill to become gods, but it would be heaven without our spouses and what it all boils down to, I think, is that you know even though they think that God can relate to them more. Ultimately they're not satisfied with this God that they worship because if they were they wouldn't need these other things in heaven and that's where we stand is we are totally satisfied with God and I don't think they are so I just kinda jumped out to me what you guys were talking, whom have I in heaven but you and Earth has nothing I desire besides you my flesh in my heart may fail but God is my strength but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 7325 to 26. That's simple, that's real men. I'm thinking LDS member can legitimately say that – so thanks like I was a guy was a great point and go Like quote from Psalm 73 beautiful absolutely beautiful. So at several points in the discussion. I would have alluded to that but one of the deepest topics that was covered in with Quicken was the concept of eternal law and material versus the material quicker asserted that if God is a material God does not exist in another videos of his.
He said the other. God is 19 and I were you when you asked him you know what about this this obvious concept of eternal law, you know I was on my yard. My rake over my head going. You got me you got it at that.
That is the challenge to that Mormon claim right if you stated eternal law precedes God than what it what is the I think you asked the question what is the content of that eternal law have an answer for so what will you like to see more on that topic is the problem that we believe that God is a material can have existence without it and will return to demonstrate and that MS is massive problem for LDS conceptions of God. So that's my you know llama cards and they left my presupposition will side where you want to show the nature of unbelieving thought always results in self-defeating statements and here at the bottom root level of everything in the Mormon story of reality massive contradiction and so you got one revelation literally saying the elements are eternal. In the beginning with God." Intelligence was not created or made, neither indeed can be. And then you look at it and it's like okay you don't believe in concepts there just ideas so they're not real. A solid meal sometime describe it, and yet you have this eternal law that has information, content, and it but yet it's physical or is it physical what what is the eternal law because no one can place it there because it's sort of like the playbook by which the gods in the operating by so they're not the ones putting the content of it in the way a Terrell Givens describes eternal laws. He says this is interesting. I think this is for presentation. Mormonism is page 46 of wrestling Angel the process. This process of repentance re-choosing continually self-correcting and reorienting one's life continues until one finds oneself in harmony with God Psalms, Buddhist teacher there by the way, and the eternal laws that undergird the universe so a goal you have is to conform yourself to this eternal law that undergirds the universe itself. Like the bottom axiom of the system, but what is it, how is it, how is it there and where is it.
It's it's it's it's like this idea, but how ideas are mentally come from mine. That's where you get Mormons to embrace weird versions of like emergent is him where the properties are emerging from matter so is that the case is the is is the eternal law emerging from matter that's already there but it sounds like they're saying it's coeternal with matter, they almost up with a weird version of the Trinity. You know the matter that's eternal the intelligences that are eternal and the internal laws of eternal it's it's a very bizarre sad thing because you don't have something bottom. But it would seem like Mormonism view is material physical, but it's not because you eternal law so law that is forever law that's content it has to be placed there by a mind. I mean you could, said Mike.
Laws require lawgivers, how was it just there.
How is it to the Mormons in audience the you're telling us the eternal law is a brute fact of the universe. How is it that the brute fact of the universe, and I don't think there's any satisfactory answer, and I think the eternal law which you can't doesn't have physical doesn't have physical characteristics and you criticize us for having a visible God and yet matter eternal and you seem like you've got them both their it's a contradiction in systems like matters, eternal plus his ideas eternal so really isn't the eternal wall kind of the real God of the system is that really what ultimate the system as it certainly is not God or any given God, eternal laws, ultimate because the gods have to abide by the eternal law you know the use of role dilemma. The idea is that there's these two horns and it's like Noah dealing with morality and the nature of God in it and I think it's destructive towards a polytheistic conceptions of God, but not for Christian monotheism.
That's where we are said to be able to split the horns of the dilemmas at work. Mormonism is like, gladly all fall in one of the horns of the dilemma the moral law limits of his before God and he's adhering to it showing what the whole point of the road limos trying to show he really nothing he really in charge here really set himself up.
He's conforming to something else. That's what's ultimate so massive problems.
Now there is a philosophical class.
You guys know this but Mormon philosophers really bright people and they're trying to put this all together and they can be very good. It's snowing you and I'm not trying to that opening line become like these information dumps and well our philosophy accords with this and that, like reading this paper with a thousand footnotes in a fog death by footnote but it really never actually answers the question in up talking about things a lot and and having a bunch of literature related to it but not actually answering the base bottom line of the question of where she dropped talking about here which is one of the eternal law, how to get there is a physical death sound fiscal but yet everything is material but has eternal material help me out I mean trends to work duties because it was sort of. Later on that I realized I didn't know when I first built with LDS. I didn't know what internal wall.
Then I like coupon only. This is like the most important thing what what what we do here is read nesting from from him on this and in intimacy with you guys a look at this Mormon thought. This is from Terrell Givens, Ian page 44 Mormon thought posits an unconventional cosmos or reconfigured Godhead in a radical human anthropology universe and Mormon thought is eternally existent rather than a product of divine summoning out of nothingness. There's a slam on creation graduate. Neo-dualism is rewritten as two-tiered monism spirit as more refined matter. By the way, I'm just saying I don't know there will understand language, but this is not good sex is like decidedly and biblically singer and laws are themselves as that term though as God the Godhead consists of three separate and distinct deities. Two of them embodied within an embodied Holy Ghost but Mormon thought encompasses a seldom discussed feminine divine as well. Human beings meanwhile come to earth trailing clouds of glory for a pre-mortal state carry with them to see the divinity and aspire to become, through the atonement of Christ for partakers of the divine nature.
I mean, it seems accurate.
One thought, but you realize how decidedly a biblical system is again is why like a Terrell Givens book was looking at it as a sort of intellectual take on trying to synthesize them.
I found it fascinating, as well as the whole thing of the eternal law I like to see more Christians in LDS people explore that really nail them down on it and see what happens there while the question.
The question really becomes. If eternal laws as eternal as God, than why why does God have to follow and what and what will be the outcome if God does not know the book of Mormon, con touches on that when it says you know that they would cease to be God more than what would he be if God cease to be God then would we have nothing.
You have the eternal law would some other intelligence rise up to become God had, how do you know that that the God of Mormonism will never fail to not live up to that eternal law yes Smith said this when he made in 1839 Joseph Smith when he rejected creation and use of this quote anything created cannot be eternal and earth, water, all these had their existence in an elementary state from maternity.
I'm unclear what's happening but they just don't like Gratian asked Nilo I mean Smith talked about the eternal duration of matter.
It's interesting what's crazy is if you look at the Mormon intellectual class. There's basically three views of this and that for the papers comes interesting. I believe the guys that was brown, but is called Mormons probably aren't materialists and he shows that you will have to hold the sum of the old radical materialistic conceptions and there's divergent views and opinions on this and this is such a big worldview issue like this is not the kind of thing Christians can really actually argue about you know really what Mormons can and it's a fascinating little paper looking like little as three different ways to look at this and one of sort of as an accidental Platonism. The other sort of a radical materialism and here's his version.
She views as officer of the right there way that I don't fully understand it has to do with usual utilizing this concept of of Kimberly hoisted the spirit of Christ are the light of Christ, which is almost as unfilled in concept in early Mormon thought is that the light of Christ of the spirit of Christ because number life provided Christ. Yeah, he did did authors paper uses that as sort of the thing that everything is grounded upon, which is not clear though and it's clear that wasn't really fleshed out that way. But it's also he's using up less defined earlier Mormon concept try to get it to the point is, it just shows how there's a lot of problems at the very base of reality with how mortgage of unitary very metaphysic at one quick question for gig on our regular time is one of where were basically almost done to keep you up to later. Anything yet matter and spirit are of equal duration. Both are self existent. They never began to exist. That's partly Pratt saying that I believe it's in his essay called the absurdity of the materialism, but I think is faithfully working out what Smith said looking at matter spirit equal duration.
Both are self existent, so God can be self existent in any real meaning since even though in Christianity is the only thing is of existent. Matter and spirit are, but it's not really God this this interesting point.
I never considered just talking.
He brings all the stuff to the forefront of my head that you know Paul mentioned this earlier, but gave us agency and Mormonism is God and for all eternal but then God gives agencies and that means we didn't have agency which means that law that eternal law did not give it to us.
That means that God was going against the law and it was actually Satan was promoting the law say one thing I wanted to point out to his in the beginning of the debate quickly said that material has to proceed immaterial, because God has to be a physical being, to create spirit or anything else. But then when you go towards any debate or talk about eternal law. He says that the immaterial, the eternal law has to proceed God, which is the material so it's a Concord like my vocabulary. It's like how do you reconcile these two arguments because you saying you have to have a thinker before he can have the thought, but now he sang the thoughts have to always exist prior to the thinker ever come around on the scene, and he's big in his previous debates and criticizing Christianity's conception of God is a mere idea and yet the thought of that sound like you got an idea at jump in all worldview systems at bottom are mental or physical, mental, or material you could say my same insolently like a brain other mean like it's like at bottom. That's when we can talk about God sent the Bible as at bottom. It's mental. You know, disembodied mind. Not that that's all that God is saying that not physical but Mormonism seems like it supports physical but then you look at his other stuff like weight actually that's the contradiction. The very root of it, it's, it's quite amazing.
So that's something I like to see more on this because a lot of people caught Mormons up.
I think on sort of the problem they have the infinite regress of their gods talking to this about this the other day with the twitter handle guy LDS philosophies, twitter handle and he actually said he is talking about one of the moral philosophers and will you and said if we would just let him loose.
He could solve all of these problems I think is kind of joking. These also come serious like this more floss for all of these and I tweeted back first issue, yet he should start with the problem of infinite regress with your God is a layer hill I thought I was enjoying myself, but start there.
That the is the problem you have any like it's been solved and led me to some papers and like these guys are soft easy check Don. We got our infinite regress probably never know nothing. It's it's endemic but it is companies a smart guy does twitter handle guy smart guy, but we all know there's lots of lots of very intelligent, you know, LDS members and stuff like that so they can definitely know speak of these things but yeah I agree were problematic at the root of the system ministers philosophical questions that Christians are still try to do it so it's not the fact that they exist and we can answer them perfectly that necessarily makes LDS theology and correct but it's when you take all of it in its totality and compared to Scripture. That's when you really see the contradictions.
So yeah it's that's I agree with you that that is something that needs to be talked about more and debated more with LDS is showing just the foundations of existence. The foundation of you know what is spirit like you circular talk about this. The light of Christ. That's kind of what they equate with the omnipresent essence of God, they have this public outing omnipresent, but then they say well it's the light of Christ. It's everywhere that gives light to all beings that that holds all the universe together and is so it's kind like they give a title for something that Christians believe to make it makes sense because alike we stopped have God be a man like me but we still need these other things organist squeeze a study of this the light of Christ to fulfill that need. Of that passage you not mean Like patchwork theology. If you want to think about that with well you know it's like the force. The force it binds us and penetrates us and holds the universe together have pretty much yeah yeah so yes is been great. Really appreciate you coming on audio any other final comments are things you want talk about or final message to our latter-day St. listeners are Christian friends may be listening. You know there are a lot of good resources in this area, you know, like all the stuff the McKeever near Johnson. Those guys have done MRM research ministry YouTube channel goblins more still. Most of the tanners. Did you know there's a lot of good stuff, but we've also seen that basically the folks at BYU aren't sleeping so the put not all these papers you know they may have a small cadre people put all his papers all the stuff and some of the neck in a new generation of taking to the Internet style LDS apologists and grabbed popularize version these arguments is sort of the new components in the conversation to discuss in Opelika. Some of these new proofs they'll say they half of the book of Mormon and no geography so these new ones. I don't have really been fully dealt with like some of the old stuff so it's interesting in this century centuries in a manner speaking going on centuries long debate there are new things to discuss, in part, it is because of such changing nature of LDS much like their God, and it's it's really hard for Christians who don't come from LDS background to really go into apologetics. It's like if you really want to be an apologist for Latter Day Saints.
You got diving deep. There's a lot of stuff to learn. 12. The way the James White but it is he thinks it LDS theology is like really not deep in the sense of you know, like one doctrine after an early well there's a lot of breadth LDS theology.
There's a lot of stuff you have to know is a lot of terminology differences so yeah there's there's just so much resources you have to understand you just didn't LDS apologists. Apologetics is changing so much every day like I see LDS using apologetic art arguments. I never would've believed no house like I can call myself a McCarthyite when I was a Latter Day Saints you know Hydro line in the sand.
I said, here's where we are.
Here's her Christianity is were part of the church of the Lamb you're part of the church of the great and volatile church of the devil and I see so much blurring the lines.
Now if I go over all Christian.
I I've never friends who is also for Latter Day Saints you're talking to missionaries of the day.
She said they told there were just another Christian denomination actually used that terminology. So it's it's everything is changing so much so like you said, I agree that we have to we have to keep up-to-date because I didn't even leave the church I long ago I resigned in 2017.
Here are the phone exactly I gotta keep up-to-date. He said a Mormon doctrine believers the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls in Mormon doctrine, page 177 in 1966 edition so yeah that was you back in Matthew as amine or not they are following the internal law. Yeah me and I are leaving got us to follow.
I've even heard people say yeah God could send and he could be removed from heaven feel things like that. I was like what I never wrote about said that stuff as I do sincerely wish we as Christians, we really do need to step up our game and even us. You know like I can get complacent and say all I know enough I lived I was LDS for 20 years, but we really need to keep up-to-date CS agree to suggestion.
So this is where you can plug yourself for any products or doing work and people find on YouTube you have any other platforms or people can find you podcasts or things like that on exciting projects, YouTube.com/vocab alone and then that I had a list of all these debates I was doing, and appear at the end of October 9 (but nowhere went but the last week of October Monongahela quite a few on some different channels and I'll announce one my social media and stuff open it be debate in Hebrews light on so the file to be debating another Hebrews light on the doctrine of the Trinity, leaving another Hebrews light on how to interpret acts 26 were Paul speaks before Agrippa and some other ones were gone to so a lot a lot going on and on.
By the time this heirs I would've already debated Hebrews light on the question of this 400 year prophecy that some of them hold.
So basically over next week's BC do a lot of debates on different YouTube debate when channels try to get in and I can do them forever. Keep on, you know, but is kind of the season debating right now, so they want to keep in touch or watch is debates.
Today's Reno get information from your YouTube channel on that all right if I let her out information there than like on Instagram and Twitter look just at mu, and then this history apologist bozos you be able to get updates and stuff you okay great well I'll be the first to really thank you very much for For staying. I know he kinda said about an hour and 1/2, but it's been almost 2 hours, so we really appreciate the time you set aside to to talk to us tonight. We really enjoyed the conversation. I really enjoyed the debate. I agree with Paul I think is really good. I think it's a good resource. I think Christians should really listen to and I think our latter-day St. friends should listen to it.
Also examine the arguments and really think critically and what was said and compared to what Scripture says something that can be a real blessing. I can really help us to know what God is revealed about himself.
In the end, and how the Athanasian Creed agrees with that.
So thank you again for coming on men. Thank you, thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page. We would appreciate it if you give the page alike. We also have an outer brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others. As we discussed the podcasts past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, etc. you can also send us an email at outer firstname.lastname@example.org. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on Apple podcasts cast box Google podcasts pocket cast pod be specified in stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel and if you like it be shirts to lay hands on the unsubscribe button and confirm it if you like what you hear. Please give us a rating and review where everything listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael.
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