What About Sacraments? Redux: Baptism, Pt. 1 (Articles of Faith Series)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1-9, which calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own.

It comes to us from without, thus, outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. You are listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. I'm Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist. I'm Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist.

I'm Paul Bunyan. Let's get into it. The fourth LDS article of faith states, we believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are, first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. In our previous episode of the Outer Brightness podcast, we each discussed our past experiences as Latter-day Saints related to the necessity of baptism and the sacrament, what most Christians refer to as the Lord's Supper, communion, et cetera, whether differences and viewpoints on the sacraments or ordinances disrupt the unity of the Christian church, and how we now prepare and receive the Lord's Supper and baptism as born-again Christians.

In this episode, we would like to take a closer look at the subject. As full-time missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, during every weekly meeting, at least, for those of us who are young enough to use Preach My Gospel, sorry, Paul, we recited the following. Our purpose is to invite others to come into Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end. We were taught and we taught others that, without question, except for those who passed away before the age of accountability, water baptism and confirmation were absolutely necessary ordinances that everyone must receive from a Latter-day Saint priesthood holder to be eligible to enter the celestial kingdom, the highest of the three degrees of heaven. There were no ifs, ands, or buts. If someone did not receive the restored gospel, which included faith, repentance, water baptism by immersion, and then laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, he or she must receive these ordinances by proxy in the LDS temple.

There was just no getting around it. In previous episodes, we have described our personal journeys out of the LDS church and toward biblical Christianity. In continuing our faith journeys, one topic that was of particular concern to me was what water baptism is, what it signifies, who must receive it, and whether it is still an absolute requirement for eternal life. The same was true for the sacrament. Why do Christians do it?

Do they believe the same things that I did about it? Does God do anything in the sacrament or is it a memorial only? During this episode, we hope to address some of these questions and describe how we have grown in our understanding of Scripture concerning water baptism and the Lord's Supper. We also dive into passages that we often used as LDS missionaries to demonstrate that we must receive baptism in order to be saved and reconsider whether this is still the case. While we three may have differing views on these topics, we recognize that there is room for disagreement based on the teachings of the Word of God. We all recognize this to be an important topic and that baptism and communion are commanded to be observed in Christ's church by the Lord himself. While we may not understand them in the same way, we acknowledge that we are brothers in Christ's church and that we each are seeking to follow him, to be conformed to his image, and that we must be willing to be teachable.

A Christian's journey never ends and we hope that this discussion will be enlightening and help you along our continuing faith journey. Throughout this episode, the words ordinances and sacraments may be used interchangeably depending on our own personal beliefs while recognizing that these terms are not always synonymous. We also recognize that some traditions view a differing number of total sacraments or ordinances, but following the previous episodes titled What About Sacraments or Ordinances, we will be limiting our discussion to the historic Protestant view that the sacraments or ordinances comprise baptism by water and the Lord's Supper. For an extended discussion on this, we recommend listening to these previous episodes. Thanks for joining us, Fireflies. In our previous episodes on the subject of sacraments and ordinances, we discussed our understanding of what non-LDS sacraments ordinances were.

So before getting into specific passages about water baptism and the Lord's Supper, would you like to discuss in general what the sacraments or ordinances are, what they signify, whether they are means of grace, etc., based on your understanding of Scripture? There's a lot to unpack there, but hopefully we can just kind of get our feet wet. Hey, that's a joke. That was okay. Yeah. He's given you a run for being able to prove total depravity. Oh, man.

Yeah, that was bad. I was going to say, well, feet, legs, torso, and head. We've got a full immersion.

Nothing else. I think we'll just sprinkle. We'll just do some sprinkling here. I mean, I won't dog you for it, but all right. So, Michael, how about you go first?

Sure thing. So I believe that the sacraments are primarily symbolic and that the communion is symbolic of Christ's flesh and blood that was shed for us. And that baptism is a symbolism of Christ's death and his resurrection, which we are showing that we are also a part of when we get baptized.

And I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I think for the most part, I want to save a lot of it for later on in the discussion. But, you know, one of the things that you want to just touch on briefly, and I'll get more into it later, is in Romans chapter 4, Paul talks about circumcision and how it was a seal of the righteousness that Abraham had by faith. So it was a seal of righteousness that he already had, and I believe that the sacrament, specifically baptism, acts in the same way. So you would say that it is a sign and seal of our faith in Christ?

Correct. Yeah, I would say that it is a sign and seal of our faith in Christ, but it is also a gift that he gives us, and it is a sign and seal of his love for us. So I'd say it kind of goes both ways there.

Okay, awesome. And we look forward to hearing more of your thoughts later in the discussion. So Paul, would you like to go into your opinions on this? Yeah, so, but you're asking what they signify, whether they're means of grace based on our understanding of Scripture. So baptism, I believe it's the act of baptism is an outward sign of an inward change of heart. So God has regenerated the believer and given them a new heart. A change has taken place that moves the sinner from a state of rebellion towards God to a state of love towards God. And that change, in my understanding, precedes faith.

And for that, you know, I'd reference John 6, 46. Baptism itself is symbolic of new birth, of dying, being buried and being raised again with Christ Jesus into new life, according to Romans 6, 3 through 5. But it's also the sign of new covenant believers. And the Lord's Supper, I think, signifies and confers to believers who partake the benefits of Christ's mediation on our behalf. It is a time of reflection on the grace of God offered in the sacrifice of his son. And I'm a real presence guy when it comes to the Lord's Supper. And by that, I mean that I believe that Christ is present in the Lord's Supper spiritually, not corporally.

And I suppose that I'd say that my reading of Scripture and my experience might lead me to call it a time of real communion with my Lord. In terms of whether the sacraments are means of grace, I would say yes. I believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper are means of grace. They're not mere memorials and symbols. God does work through them. And even though they are both memorials and symbols, there is a sense in which they are effectual in the life of the believer. And by that, I mean, God works through them to confirm and strengthen our trust in the Lord. Yeah, that's a great answer. Yeah, I really don't have too much to disagree with you there, Paul.

So, yeah. So the listeners by now should probably know that I'm a particular Baptist, Reformed Baptist, whatever you want to call us. We hold to the, so our church holds to the 1677, 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. And also we have we have the Baptist Catechism that's kind of related to that. So I agree with a lot with what Paul says.

I'm preparing for this episode. I was reading from Bhavik's Reformed Dogmatics and he talks about the various views of baptism and what they signify and whether they're effectual in the giving of the sacrament itself or or whether it's only through faith. And so there's a lot of history behind that. But basically, but basically, yeah, the Reformed view, which would also include my view, is that the sacraments are a sign and seal of the covenant of grace. The covenant of grace being that covenant that God made with man to which included providing a savior, the Lord Jesus, to to pay for the guilt for the debt and the guilt and the negative consequences of the fall and of sin. And so through covenants, God through time has interacted with with mankind and baptism and the Lord's Supper.

They are signs and seals of the covenant of grace so that their signs and that they signify the reality underneath what they signify. So in baptism, we've you've already discussed very beautifully that it represents many things. It represents the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and also the fact that the believer dies unto sin and rises with Christ. This is shown in passages like Romans six, three through four, where Paul says, Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. And so we do see that that union that union with Christ and dying to sin and being raised up with Christ. You also see passages like Titus chapter three.

Sorry, verse four. Paul says, But when the goodness and loving loving kindness of God, our savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us and righteousness, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our savior, so that being justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. And so I think that passage is baptism signifies a cleansing, a washing, you know, we think of water as a cleansing agent, we use it to wash our clothing, we use it to wash our bodies.

And so it's signifying this spiritual in inward cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit. So there's the baptism by water, kind of what John the Baptist taught. And then he said there would be one greater than me who would come after me and he would baptize by fire and the Holy Ghost.

And I think that, and I was listening to R.C. Sproul talk about baptism, and he said that this is something that only the Lord, the Savior Jesus Christ can perform, that it's not something that man can do. And that's why John the Baptist said that he was unworthy to do it.

So this baptism of the Holy Spirit, this inward cleansing, it's something that only God can do. And so there's a lot of signs, a lot of symbolism related to baptism and related to the Lord's Supper. And so we'll talk a lot more about specific passages that relate to baptism.

These are just several that I picked out that I didn't originally pick out for discussion, so I thought that would be good to bring up. But the Reformed view is not that baptism or the Lord's Supper are effectual in and of themselves apart from faith. So they're only effectual unto salvation. Question 96 in the Baptist Catechism, it says, how is the word made effectual to salvation? Sorry, let me skip that.

I meant question 98. So how do baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation? And the answer is baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of his Spirit in them that by faith receive them. So the sacraments are blessed by Christ, they're the work of the Holy Spirit in us, and they are effectual means of salvation to those who receive them. So we believe that you're actually united to the benefits of salvation, namely the person of Christ, his body and blood, and all the redemptive aspects of the plan of salvation, of the covenant of grace. All that is applied to the believer through faith. Hey Matthew, can I jump in here?

Sure. So listening to you talk, I suspect that if there are Latter-day Saints or post-Latter-day Saints listening, they might hear you say this and go, hey, he's saying the same thing we are, right? So what would you say is the difference, right? What's the difference between the position you're espousing with regards to baptism, for example, and baptismal regeneration? All right, great question. So I saved a little excerpt from Bavinck's Reformed Dogmatics that I wanted to bring up.

It's in Volume 4, page 521, if anybody wants to cross-check me. So in here, he talks about all the benefits of baptism, including justification or the forgiveness of sins, regeneration, repentance, the dying away of the old self, the coming to life, fellowship, not only with Christ himself, but also with the church. So all these benefits that he's been talking about in this chapter, Bavinck says this, quote, So essentially, in the LDS view of salvation, kind of what I've talked about in the intro is that the benefits of salvation, being united to Christ, redemption, forgiveness of sins, et cetera, we kind of have these same ideas with Latter-day Saints when we think about baptism and communion or the Lord's Supper, but these are not 100% tied to the sacraments. In other words, you can have these benefits, and you do have these benefits if you have faith in Christ, repentance and faith in Christ, without receiving baptism and the Lord's Supper. These things are signs and seals, so they're sealed in the sense of like, you know, if you write a letter to somebody, kind of like God, he puts a letter in the envelope and he seals it. And so it's not that the letter never changed, the content of the letter is still the same, but when God puts his seal on it, he's saying, okay, I'm confirming that this is mine, that this is legal, this is valid, but it doesn't mean that the content of the letter was incorrect.

It just means that God is confirming to us through these outward sacraments to the believer and to the body of Christ that he will make good on his promise, that his covenant will be kept on his part. So I hope that explains it, and it wasn't too long-winded. Yeah, yeah, it does. And maybe dive in a little bit deeper on this. And Michael, jump in here if you have any thoughts on this. I actually have a question for you guys after you give your thoughts, Paul. Okay, so I was thinking earlier about, you know, my position on regeneration and when it occurs, because I differ somewhat from some theologians within my own tradition, and I do so based on what I think I see in the Bible. And I was thinking earlier, like, would you guys say that within Latter-day Saint theology, that there's a definitive concept of regeneration like there is within Christian theology? I don't think I saw it as a Latter-day Saint, and I just want to get your thoughts on that. I think that Latter-day Saints are all over the map when it comes to this sort of thing. I mean, I'll talk to Latter-day Saints and I'll get all kinds of different answers that, you know, we do the best we can, and then Christ does the rest. And then there's some who say that grace is an enabling power that allows us to become something. And so I just think it just varies depending on what Latter-day Saint you're talking to.

I mean, I don't think there's anything set in the doctrine. I mean, the concept of being born again is there in the Book of Mormon. And so a lot of times I'll see people just say like, oh, yeah, that's baptism.

You know, they'll look at Nicodemus, or not Nicodemus, but John chapter three, where Jesus is talking to Nicodemus. And I think that's where that idea comes from. And I think that's what I've seen most commonly is, you know, you enter into the covenant through baptism, and that's when you are born again. But I don't think I've seen him use like the word regenerated, like you're talking about. Yeah, I don't remember it as a concept being talked about using that particular word. What about you, Matthew?

Yeah, I agree. That was a new term I learned once I kind of was born again and was learning about Christian theology. But I mean, Latter-day Saints do talk a lot about, like Michael said, about being born again or being born of God. I just checked on the LDS website just really quickly. They have something called the Guide to the Scriptures.

And I looked up that topic, born again or born of God, and it defines it as to have the Spirit of the Lord cause a mighty change in a person's heart so that he has no more desire to do evil but rather desires to seek the things of God. And I think the passage that I remember most, I mean, there's the conversion of the, what were their names, the Sons of Ammon or something like that? And Alma the Younger. Was it Sons of Ammon?

I can't even remember anymore. Mosiah. The Sons of Mosiah.

Okay. But Ammon has sons too, right? So, you know.

Yeah, let's just throw everybody's sons in there. And Nephi his sons. No, Ammon was the one that chopped off the arms. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was one of the sons of Mosiah. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew there was a connection there. So I remember, I mean, they had their miraculous kind of like conversion experiences where they were, you know, changed by God from being evil to, you know, good.

But I remember most was Mosiah 3. And I remember on my mission in Brussels, I was reading that passage and how they just all felt this mighty change of heart and they wanted to make a covenant with God. And they just fell to their knees and there's just this outpouring of the Spirit. And I remember reading that and being like, man, I wish I just had this feeling, this born again, you know. I wanted to constantly feel like I never wanted to do evil but only do good. But I just felt so burdened, you know. Like, I never, it's like I never do what's right. I don't have this desire.

If I do, it's only momentary. And I just remember really craving this born again experience. And I think some Latter-day Saints, a lot of times they do associate it with water baptism.

Let's see. There's a passage in here that's referenced. Okay, whosoever believes on my word shall be born of me even of water and of the Spirit. This is Doctrine and Covenants 5 16. So I think there are other passages too that they would point to like John 3 5 which we'll address later. But yeah, I think, I don't think they really go too deep into it, into this idea of regeneration.

Yeah, I was kind of just remembering too, like you triggered this in me, Matthew. But I remember going to the Institute and they were specifically telling everybody like, hey, you know, don't assume that being born again is going to be this huge life-changing experience. Sometimes it's really subtle and then they'd kind of talk about like the different kinds of light, you know, coming into your life. Like sometimes it's like flipping on a light switch where it's real sudden and obvious. And sometimes it's more like the sun slowly coming up over the horizon and you don't really notice it as much.

And I felt, I always felt kind of let down by that because I'm like, I just felt like it was just, I don't know, making an excuse for people who weren't having those kind of experiences, you know, just seemed really lackluster to me. I don't know if you ever heard anybody say stuff like that, but I remember them saying that at Institute. I heard that analogy used in relation to like revelation. You know, there were times when God would give revelation a little bit at a time or in sudden bursts of light, but I'd never really heard about that in terms of conversion experiences.

That's interesting. Yeah, because they would say that, you know, a lot of times if you grew up in the church or something, you know, it wouldn't be as obvious because, you know, it was just given to you, you know, line upon line and precept upon precept. And so there was never just this huge moment of clarity. I mean, for me, it felt like there was a huge moment of clarity. So I felt like I had one of those big born again experiences. But it seemed like a lot of people didn't have that.

So I was kind of surprised. Yes. Is that Messiah three passage that I was really thinking about Matthew and Michael? Because I think I think, Matthew, when we were on with with RFM, he he brought up that passage. Right.

Where? Because that's that's Alma, the elder, right? Is that the call?

I thought it was Benjamin is King Benjamin. Oh, OK. Maybe not. But he brought up. So maybe not as I agree. He brought up the passage where after Alma, right, who was a judge and what did King Noah's court? Right.

Leaves and starts his ministry. Oh, I guess. Oh, yeah. I'm a little older. Yeah.

I'm of the elder. Here's a bit of nice preaching. Right. And by narrative within the Book of Mormon. And he he leaves and runs away from from the wicked priests of Noah and goes to the I think the waters of Mormon.

Right. And starts his ministry. And he he has some some followers. And he says to them, you know, how you have you experienced that mighty change of heart? And if so, do you feel so now?

And if so, what's stopping you from from coming and being baptized? Right. That whole speech that he gives Alma five is that you're saying, Michael?

Yeah, that's that's Alma five. Yeah. So the RFM brought that up almost as if like, you know.

Yes. So there's this mighty change of heart. And Alma asked them, if you felt that, tell me, do you feel so now? And he was talking about it like, see, there's this opportunity to fall away even after you've been regenerated. But, you know, that I guess that would be in the in the LDS scriptures where that kind of that concept of regeneration might be presented. And what I find interesting about that is that it is presented almost in a way where it precedes faith, right? It precedes baptism on the part of those people. So I find it it's kind of striking that that Latter Day Saints are so anti Calvinist and anti, you know, salvation by grace through faith only. So averse to that idea, because it's almost like they at least the Book of Mormon presents that idea in that in that speech within Alma five.

And then to what you were saying, Michael, about, you know, what they taught in an institute and seminary, you know, that if you if you grow up in the church is kind of subtle. I remember when I first was leaving the LDS church, I was on Facebook dialoguing with people. And there was this one Latter Day Saint who really tried to convince me that although I believed that I had had a born again experience that was drawing me out of the LDS church. He was really trying to convince me.

No, no, you don't need to do that. It's not tied to baptism because he was saying I was baptized at eight, but I wasn't born again till I was 17. I remember him telling me. So it's just kind of interesting that that's kind of what you were what you were referring to. Right, Michael, is that it could happen later in life and it doesn't it's not going to necessarily going to be miraculous, but it's not necessarily tied to baptism either. Yeah.

So I was talking to my younger brother about this the other day, actually. And he was saying that he actually believes in imputed righteousness because we've been talking about it a lot. But, you know, he was kind of kind of believes it happens when you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost right after baptism, when you get the laying on of hands. And I was saying, well, what about I mean, you have to have faith first. Right.

So what if you're eight and you don't even reach that spot yet? And so he was saying that according to his understanding, it could happen later in life. It's just because they say receive the Holy Ghost.

And so you've got that invitation and you can do it any time afterwards. So, yeah, that's what I'm saying, though, that I'd never heard that before. But it just seems different when you talk to different Latter Day Saints.

Yeah, for sure. And what's interesting about what you were saying, Michael, is that, you know, Latter Day Saints are anti infant baptism as well. Right.

The Book of Mormon specifically speaks against that in pretty in pretty strong terms. Right. I think it says something like if you didn't think about it, you're you're bound for hell. Right. Yeah. It says you die in the moment that you happen to be thinking that children need baptism.

You're just you're going straight to hell. Right. And yet, you know, I sit here thinking what what's the difference between, you know, age eight as a as kind of an arbitrary age, you know, where they just roll kids through primary and everyone gets baptized at age eight and baptizing an infant. Right. In terms in terms of, you know, whether that eight year old has been regenerated and been given a new heart.

I know that wasn't the case for me. So it's almost like they do almost hold this position of baptismal regeneration, like a kind of you get baptized and it kind of forces you into this new life, even if even if God hasn't been drawing you. Right. It's a very strange kind of when you when you kind of start thinking about the theological details involved, it gets really weird and messy when you try to think through the Mormon conception of things.

Yeah, it is for sure. And I was just I was just thinking about how traumatic it would be if, you know, I mean, you know, they've changed revelations in the past or or policies and said, like, hey, we spoke with a limited understanding. Right. When they reversed the priesthood ban on blacks, for instance. And can you imagine if they got up and said we we spoke with a limited, limited understanding, the age of accountability is nine. You know, that that verse in the Book of Mormon would actually be condemning everybody who who baptized their children at eight.

Yeah, that's interesting. So, yeah, it's just kind of interesting, like they baptize children at eight, kind of with the recognition that and they confirm them and kind of with the recognition that they may not be converted, I guess is the way they might do that. And so it's sort of similar right to the maybe the way that those who who are pedo Baptists view things.

Right. We're we're going to do this this ordinance, the sacrament on this child and and then try to raise them up in the right way and hope that that they become converted at some point in the future. It's and yet they would decry that kind of view.

But that's that's really what they're doing with eight year olds, just not infants. Well, to all two, it's, you know, depending on the pedo Baptist, the Latter Day Saints don't they don't you know, they don't believe in original sin. So they don't think baptism has anything to do with original sin.

It's only personal sin. And a lot of so like Catholic teaching and Lutheran teaching, they do believe that baptism does kind of it does undo the negative effects of original sin, but it's not for personal sin. So it's interesting just because they they have different applications of what they think it's actually effectually for conveying within that sacrament itself.

You know what I mean? So so would I guess for a pedo Baptist and maybe it would be viewed sort of like a prevenient grace for that person, right? It does it undoes original sin such that later on.

But even then, they're not pedo Baptists generally are not Armenians, right? So they're going to they're going to still look to God to do the work of drawing that person later in their life to Christ. It gets complicated because, like, for instance, with Lutherans, they do believe that faith is actually a gift that God does give the infant through baptism. And they do actually grant them salvation and regeneration and all those things.

And so it's kind of more like, I think, from what I understand, from what I've read of Lutheran theology, the idea is that they are truly saved the infant. And it's praying that they keep that salvation, that they keep the spirit, that they continue in the faith for pedo Baptists that are reformed, like reformed Presbyterians or Dutch Reformed. It's it's they see it more of in a covenantal way, kind of like circumcision, you know, like, like we like Michael, you said that circumcision, it represented the sign and seal of righteousness of Abraham. And so all his descendants were given circumcision, but not all of them received what the sign signified.

So they received circumcision, but they did not necessarily receive the regeneration and seal of righteousness that Abraham had. So it's something that they give to their children, knowing that they might not actually receive what the sign is pointing to. So with pedo Baptists, Reformed pedo Baptists, they give the sign to their children, hoping and praying that God will work in their heart and save them and give them what the baptism signifies. But many of them recognize and they experience children that are baptized that receive the received baptism as an infant taught in the church. But then they are never saved. And then they they don't lose salvation, but they they just show that they're not part of the the elect or the part of the New Covenant membership, you know, the elect, the elect people of God.

So there's outward members and inward members. And so if you're baptized infant, you're an outward member in the church, in the visible church. But if unless you're saved by the work of Holy Spirit, you're not a member of the inward church or the invisible church. So there's a lot of it with Reformed pedo Baptists. It's a different kind of mentality or different kind of apologetic than like a Lutheran would use for baptizing infants. They believe it's more like it actually does remove original sin.

So you want to do it as early as possible to make sure that the child is saved. And that's kind of like what Augustine St. Augustine, he believed in his his theology, kind of brought to the church. And so that's why it stuck with Roman Catholicism for a long time.

And it still does today. So, yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff you can really get into. And I was and I love talking about this stuff, but I don't want to.

We've gone pretty far afield. And that's that's my fault. But I was trying to raise questions that I think might be in a Latter Day Saint or post Latter Day Saints mind as they listen to us. So. Oh, sure. No, they're great. They're great questions.

I wanted to ask you guys both a question as well, just because I think just to borrow a term from James White that I learned recently, I guess I'd consider myself sort of an imputationist, maybe even a hyper imputationist. Actually, you know, I think that would be an antinomian, actually. So now you're so hyper. Maybe you should just lay off the coffee. You know what?

It was it was Mr. Pibb. OK. Let's not let's not invite him in yet. It's too early. OK. The spirit of carbonated contention. Yeah.

So. So from my understanding, Christ, you know, he didn't just die for us. He lived for us. And, you know, that's why you see like in Matthew Chapter three, when when Christ gets baptized, he says to John the Baptist, you know, suffered to be so now for it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. And so he was doing this to fulfill righteousness, to be righteous on our behalf. So what I understand and I couldn't be wrong and maybe you guys can help me out here, but my understanding is when we believe, like Romans four says over and over again, that Christ's righteousness is accredited to us at faith and when we believe. And so it would include the righteous act of him being baptized as well. I think I actually said that when I was a brand new ex Mormon is that Christ Christ baptism is imputed to us as well. So does that sound like that's way off base to you guys, first of all? So the idea specifically of his baptism or of his entire life of righteousness is imputed to us?

Both. I've thought about the positive righteousness of Christ definitely being imputed to us. I hadn't really thought much specifically about his baptism, but I know that he did so in humility and submission. And so I think in doing so he was obeying the father and that was part of his positive righteousness. So I think that is I think I do think that makes logical sense that that that positive righteousness through that act of obedience is imputed to us.

OK. I mean, that's that's just what I was thinking, too. But I think the and I think you guys have kind of answered it already. But just because of the way I think the way my brain is wired, I'm having a hard time crossing the bridge from Christ. Righteousness is imputed to us to another act afterwards regenerates us. Does that make sense? Because I'm like, once you have Christ's righteousness and it happens at faith, then how can you add to that in any way?

Yeah. So I like I said before, I'm not a baptismal regenerationist, so I don't believe that regeneration happens at baptism. I think it temporarily follow or precedes faith that that gift of a new heart has to take place. I think it's part of the drawing of God of a believer to give them the new heart so that they can respond in faith to to the call. Otherwise, they're still in a state of of hating God and being in rebellion to God.

So that new heart has to come temporarily first, I think. And then once that takes place, you know, baptism is an act of faith. It's an act of obedience to Christ because it's a it's a commandment that Christ gave, which we'll get into later. It's a commandment that his disciples give to those that they are making disciples within the New Testament. So it's an act of faith. It's an act of of of obedience.

And it it does. It is a means of grace in that it, as I said before, it confirms and strengthens our trust in Christ as our savior and trust in the in the idea that, as you said, Michael, that his his righteousness is imputed to us. And so, yeah, I'm not a regenerationist when it comes to baptism. I think that happens prior to it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think, too.

What do you think, Matthew? And if you're both on board with that, you're like a hop, skip and a jump away from being reformed. Yeah. But no. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's the reform of the idea that regeneration precedes faith.

Yeah. Because, I mean, you just look at my favorite passages are Colossians two, Ephesians two, Romans eight, where it says you were dead and your trespasses and sin. You know, a dead man can't just, you know, he can't get up and start walking. It talks about how we were raised up with Christ and the we being believers, not everybody, you know, not this idea of, you know, prevenient grace where everybody is, you know, brought to life. It's only those who believe in Christ were brought to life. So, yeah, we can't come to faith without having that change of heart first.

So I think Paul did a great job explaining that. I think where I might differ slightly with you, Michael, is in the idea that baptism is only symbolic, because I do think God is doing a real work there, just as he does a real work in regeneration. It's not a work that saves, but it's a work that confirms the trust of the believer in his Lord or in her Lord. And so I think that there's there's truth in the idea that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. But I think I hold a pretty high view of the sacraments that, you know, I think you can get into. Some believers can get into thinking along the lines of, you know, also there's regeneration and that that precedes faith. And therefore, you know, someone really doesn't need to be baptized. And I think that if you if you go that far, then I think you're outside of the teaching of the New Testament. Well, I'm not even sure you're a Christian right now. And I'm just kidding.

Going full blown, Mr. Pig. Yeah, I'm not talking about you, Michael. I'm just saying if a person if a person goes that far and says, you know, a believer doesn't need to be baptized at all. I don't think you're teaching the New Testament at that point.

Yeah. And I agree with you, by the way. I think the baptism people should be baptized. And I guess because I want to just clarify my position a little bit, too, because I don't have as low of a position of the sacraments as you may think I do. I don't think that it's merely symbolic either.

I just I think that's what I think of when I describe them, I guess. But I guess if I were going to do an analogy, it's kind of like if a man may love a woman and that love is real. But then when when that man marries the woman, it is like it's a sign and seal of that love.

You know, it's a way of saying you are mine. And I think that when when we're baptized and these sacraments, they are a gift from God to us. And it's a sign from him that he loves us and that we are his. And I think that it really can empower us and help us with our sanctification. I think it does make a real change in us as well. I just don't think that it affects, you know, brings salvation about or regeneration. And I would agree with that.

I think I think I see I see a lot online. People will take people who are trying to engage in evangelism or apologetics to Latter Day Saints will take that position almost as a. It's almost like they view it as it has to be a contrary position to a Latter Day Saints saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. So they'll say, well, it's not necessary for salvation.

Therefore, nobody has to do it, really. You know, they take that really contrary position and rather than rather than getting into the nuance of of what the New Testament actually teaches. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's just such a desire, you know, to to show something that is completely, you know, 180 degrees different from Mormonism.

And thing is, Mormonism is not wrong about everything. Right. Right. And that's where I think it's important to get in to get into the nuance. So, OK, so I think we've we have we exhausted the the questions?

I think we've exhausted that one. That's what question number one. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's really great discussion. Yeah.

I was kind of hoping that something like that would happen because these are kind of like pretty cut and dry. Like, hey, what do you think about this passage? What do you think about that? So I'm glad you brought those up.

That's really good. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Podbean, Spotify and Stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel. And if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist at FromWaterToWine.org where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the Outer Brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at AdamsRoadMinistry.com. Stay Bright, Flyer Flies! Take my yoke upon you and learn from me For I am gentle and I'm lowly in heart And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you No one comes to the Father but through me There's nothing and no one else to hear I stand at the door you're hiding behind Can you hear me? I'm knocking Won't you wrap me inside? And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you I gave my life to set you free And now I live so that you will be a life in me And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me I'll keep my word And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you I'll make my home in you