Christmas Music & Memories

Um In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him. Was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts. gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Welcome, Fireflies, to this special edition of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We're going to Take a little easy this week for the Christmas holiday and Talk about some of the memories that we have of Christmas as children. Because this is the Outer Brightness podcast, we are going to talk about our journeys. Out of the Latter-day Saint faith and into Christianity and how. Our Christmas traditions and our Practices around Christmas holiday have either remained the same or changed.

And we're going to kick it off with a little bit of fun talking about our favorite Christmas.

Songs.

So up first, we'll throw it over to Michael to talk a little bit about one of his favorite Christmas songs. And so, Michael, why don't you just tell us a little bit about what is the song? What is the first song on your list and why it's there? Why it's your favorite. If you have a favorite version of it by a particular artist, tell us about that as well.

Okay, so I don't know if this is in any particular order as far as like. me having a favorite Christmas song. But definitely one of the most iconic songs for Christmas that I've liked for a very long time is the first Noel. And part of that is because it's one of the only Christmas songs where I know all the words to it. It's one of those songs that's just really, you know, like I've gone Christmas caroling with it and I enjoy singing it with a group of people.

And it can sound really nice if a choir is singing it. I think that's one of the reasons that it's one of my favorite songs. All right. Good deal. Did you have a version of it by a particular artist that you really care for?

For a long time, I would have said that it was probably the Mormon Tabernacle Choir because that's what I grew up listening to, you know, them singing Christmas songs around Christmastime. And, you know, even now, I'll say that there's no denying that they have talent, except that's not the name of their choir anymore. I guess it doesn't exist now. But no, I don't have a favorite artist when it comes to that one.

So, and I can't even think of any renditions of it. I just like the song itself in this case. And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them. and the glory of the Lord shone around them.

Matthew, why don't you hit us with your first Christmas song? That you particularly like?

Well, you know, once again, Michael kinda stole my thunder, but you know. My Doctor Thunder, if you will. But yeah, no, that was one of the songs I also chose. It was the first Noel. I just enjoy, I don't know, I like the, you know, kind of like the loud, boisterous songs of exaltation, you know, and glorying in the Lord.

But I like the first Noel just because it's simple and. I like just the fact that it kind of puts a picture in your mind of what that, at least it does for me when we sing that. It kind of makes you think, you know, you see these shepherds in the fields, and then they look up and they see the star or the overlapping planets. You know, we're not quite sure. You guys have heard about that that's happening soon, right?

Where Saturn and Jupiter are going to be overlapping. And they think, oh, maybe that was the star that they saw, which, I mean, I'm not going to say that. That would be contradictory to scripture. I guess that's a possibility, right? They saw some kind of, you know, astronomical phenomenon in the sky.

So, whatever they saw, you know, they saw it and they were all kind of drawn towards it. And I just like that, just that imagery that it evokes in the song, where, you know, of course, you know, there's debate as to when it actually happened. You know, I guess I could nitpick the accuracy, but like, well, it wasn't a cold winter night because, first of all, it might have taken place in the spring. And, you know, but you know, it's. I don't know, I just like the imagery that it kind of evokes, you know, accuracy, whether it's accurate or not.

But yeah, so it's always just one that I've enjoyed that kind of makes you ponder about the birth of Christ and makes me kind of, you know, think about what that night or that, you know, that that first that first day when when Christ was born, what that would have been like. I don't really I don't really have a particular artist either. With all these hymns, I've you know, I've heard different renditions like from Mormon Tabernacle Choir or but I don't I don't really have a a favorite. In terms of who performed it, it's kind of just, these are songs that I just enjoyed singing. In sacrament meetings, or you know, wherever, or just hearing it on, um, uh, yeah, just hearing it being sung, like if there was a sacrament meeting that were specifically geared towards a Christmas program, so that's kind of what.

That's just one of the three songs that I also enjoyed. A fur snow. The angels did say was to certain poor shepherds in fields as they lay in fields. Where they keeping their sheep. On a cold winter's night that was so deep.

No uh Well, no well no. One is the king of Israel, they looked up and saw. A star shining in In the east, beyond them far and to. To the earth it gave great light and so it continued both Day and night So, my first uh Oh Holy Night. It's one that I don't know if I can, if I remember singing it.

Growing up as a Latter-day Saint, we might have, but I didn't really become aware of it as a favorite until I was an adult and really kind of questioning. My LDS Faith, and it was in listening to a Christmas CD by Jewel that. I heard her version of it. And the part of the song where the lyrics say, you know, fall on your knees, hear the angel voices. It's really kind of a powerful moment when you're thinking about falling on your knees and worshiping the Christ child and, you know, what makes a baby worthy of worship.

And when you start asking kind of those doctrinal questions, it really gets deep pretty quickly with that song. And I remember just having some very powerful moments with that song in the Christmas season of probably either 2004 or 2005 timeframe, having that really hit me.

So yeah, that's kind of my first pick. I had no idea that Jewel did a rendition of that song. I'll have to check that out later. Yeah, it's really good. And like I said, that part, that fall on your knees part, she does absolutely beautifully.

Uh Oh holy night, the stars are brightly shine. It is the need. Oh Robert. Dear Saviour's praise. Long lay the world in sin and earth or pinny till he.

He appeared, and I saw felt its word all through. Love hope the weary world rejoice. I'm sorry. For you. A new and glorious morning.

Bon your knees O he angel voices all above the voice belt in Christ was born devil. Michael? You're saying that.

So, my number two pick, and just to put some background on this, one of the things that really I can't stand, and I'm sorry if one of you guys's next favorite songs falls under this category, but Secular Christian Christmas music drives me crazy. I don't know if it's just from like working retail and having to listen to it over and over again, but like just the, I don't know, like kind of like the fake happiness and like how the songs are about nothing. It just kind of grates on me.

So like, I kind of noticed that I like songs that are the opposite of that. And I really like, you know, like piano being used in Christmas songs, or I like it to have deep. Scriptural meaning and to be Christ-glorifying, and to be really serious and thoughtful.

So, this song that is my number two song is one that I didn't like originally, and it is kind of grown on me. And that is Christmas Shoes by Alabama, if you're familiar with that one. And one of the things I like about it is, you know, they were talking in church this last Sunday about how Christmas is actually, for a lot of people, it's a really depressing time as well. There's people going through a lot of things. And so, this song is just really thoughtful.

And it's about this boy whose mom is sick and maybe going to meet Jesus. And she's like, you know, everything can be Christ honoring, even when things aren't going well. And so I really like that song for that reason. Yeah, that's good. I'm not familiar with that song, but I'll have to check it out.

Yeah, definitely check it out. It's worth a listen. Yeah, I like Alabama as an artist, so definitely we'll take a look. It was almost. Oh it's Christmas time.

There I stood in another line. Uh Trying to buy that last gift or two Mm. Not really in the Christmas mood Standing right in front of me was a Little boy waiting anxiously. Dacing round like little boys do and In the sandy A pair of shoes. And it's close, we're running over.

He was dirty from head to toe. And when it came, it's time to pay I Couldn't believe what I heard him say Sir, I wanna buy these shoes. For my mama, please. See It's Christmas Eve and these shoes are just her size. Could you hurry, sir?

Daddy said there's not much time. You see, she's been sick for quite a while and I know these shoes will make her smile and I want her to look beautiful if mama meets G. Jesus tonight Matthew, what's your number two pick?

So I can't think of any. Christmas songs. You know, popular Christmas songs that really bother me, but I do kind of share with Michael's sentiment where a lot of them seem to be focused on, you know, not the primary focus of Christmas. Kind of focusing on the presents and the snow and winter and things like that. You know, those are all, you know, not bad things and spending time with family.

And I enjoy the tunes. But Saint Nick, yeah. I'm pretty sure if he came by, like, he, he, the real Saint Nick, would punch somebody. He definitely would be. He's like first Aryans, now modern uh secular Christian or Christmas uh music composers and performers.

He just goes to every one of their concerts and says, Hey, everybody, I got a knuckle sandwich for you. Your name on it.

Okay, I'll come back. But yeah, no, I mean, I enjoy all of that. There's, I don't think there's any ones that I really hate or prefer in terms of that kind of music over another. But, but in terms of what we were talking about today, I've kind of more focused on hymns and, you know, growing up in the church and ones that particularly I enjoyed.

So my second choice was, oh, come, all you faithful. And I just, I've just always enjoyed that because it's inviting, you know, I mean, right from the first verse, it says, oh, come, all you faithful, joyful and triumphant. Come you to Bethlehem, come and behold him.

So, I mean, I know it's kind of more speaking historically. You know, it's with the star and everybody coming to worship and adore the birth of the Lord. It's also an invitation to us to also come at his feet and to worship him. And I also like, so I like how kind of the first verse is kind of speaking more to people on earth, you know, whether right now or at The time of his birth. And like how the second verse moves, it says, sing choirs of angels sing in exaltation, sing all ye citizens of heaven above, glory to God, glory in the highest.

So it moves to the more of the heavenly realm where all the heavenly beings and the creations of God are worshiping him and they're all also sharing in this joy and this glory of the birth of the Lord. And then verse three, it's kind of more a prayer directly to the Lord saying, yea, Lord, we greet thee, born this happy morning. Jesus to thee be all the glory given, Son of the Father, now in flesh appearing.

So that's a like if you really just think about those lyrics, there's very few words there, but it is very, it has a very high Christology in there where it's they're calling him Lord. They're praying to him, also recognizing that he is the Son of God. And so there is just a lot of, I'm kind of with Michael where I really do enjoy the hymns that have kind of a lot of theology there and it elevates you. You know, I think hymns and singing are supposed to elevate. Elevate you, edify you, and it's also an act of praise and worship.

So that's just. Those are some of the reasons I enjoyed that. And I just enjoy the melody, also, the actual music. It's very, it's kind of, it's another one of those hymns that's kind of calm and inviting, and it's true. trying to invite everyone to come and worship the Lord.

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for that. Ah, death. Stay Peter. Lazy tree young farm.

They need hey. Lady. Yeah. And uh Abund Rachem and Jalorum They need adores they need adores Oh come on ye faithful joyful as triumph Oh come ye oh come ye to be come and behold him born the king of Oh, come, let us adore him. Oh, come, let us adore him.

Oh, come, let us adore him. So, my second pick is O come, O Come, Emmanuel. And this is another one that I was not aware of as a young Latter-day Saint. I became aware of it as a teenager. And when I first became aware of it, I did not know that it was a Christmas hymn.

Because My first introduction to it was on a C D that I got. Of a local Utah kind of electronica group called Agnes Poetry. I think they were Catholic. And it was not on a Christmas album. It was just on one of their regular album releases.

And it was on there. And they have this kind of electronica version that's very, it fits with the whole feel of the song, which is kind of, it kind of starts out in a mournful way. Because, you know, as the lyrics say, oh, come, oh, come, Emmanuel, and ransom captive Israel. That mourns in lonely exile here until the Son of God appears.

So I recognized as a Mormon teenager that it was, of course, speaking of Christ, but I didn't know that it was a Christmas hymn until I was riding around in my car with my dad, and I had that CD on, and he was like, oh, I know this song. We used to sing this as Lutherans at Christmas time. And so that's how I found out that it was a Christmas hymn. And ever since then, it's been one of my favorites. Um because it goes from that mournful uh kind of feel in the in the verse Uh to the very exultant and amazing rejoice, rejoice, Emmanuel shall come to thee, O Israel, in the chorus.

Oh come, oh come. And run some captivities right that once in glory exile here until the sun of God appears rejoice, rejoice in the new world. I'll come to thee, oh, we're there is a A local church here that Does a Christmas used to do a Christmas show live, and I guess they are still going to do it some.

Some they had stopped for a year or so, but um, we would go each year, it was a free Christmas show, and they, you know, the church put a lot of money into producing it. It was very well done, uh, dancing and costumes and all that kind of stuff. Um, but they the Ocomo Come Emmanuel is a A theme throughout that show that kind of reprises at various points and. They just do a fabulous job with it.

So, probably the Agnes Poetry Electronica version and then that version that's on the Crossroads Church show C D. Is really good. Their show is called Awaited because it's all about Christ being the awaited Savior.

So that's my number two pick. I love that song too.

So yeah, I totally agree with you on that. No. Oh, come, oh, come, Emanuel and ransom captivity. The mortgage rolled the exile here until. Dusty.

Of God appear, Emanuel Please come to the O is right O come, thy freedom, come and cheer our spirits by thy presence here. Disperse the gloomy clouds of night and death dark shadow. Before I get into my third one. Can I throw in some honorable mentions? Yeah.

So first of all, maybe I want to see your rendition of it, Michael. Anyways, I was going to say Any Christmas song done by Pentatonics is pretty cool. I introduced my son to them. tonight actually. We were watching some videos on YouTube.

He's like, Dad, how do they make those sounds? I'm like, I don't know, son. I don't know. And then honorable mention to the song Mary, Did You Know? I think that's a pretty cool song.

It's contemplative and it's not my My number one pick, but I had to throw it in there as an honorable mention. Even though, spoiler alert, I'm pretty sure Mary knew because the angel. Said as much to her, and even if she wasn't paying attention, like she was with child as a virgin.

So I'm pretty sure she knew something special was coming up. Mary, did you know? That you're baby boy. But one day why God. Mary, did you know?

No, but you're there. Baby boy would save our son. and daughters Do you know? They are B Baby boy has come to make Yeah. This child that you deliver.

We'll soon. Deliver you but my number one pick.

So, when I was growing up as a young child, my mom was an enormous. Amy Grant fan, and by default, so was I. But I'd only ever heard her secular stuff until I was on my mission and we were teaching some evangelical Christians, and we heard this music in the background, and it sounded a little familiar to me.

So I said, Who is this? And they said, Oh, it's Amy Grant. And I was pretty ticked off because, you know, as a Latter-day Saint, you're very proud of the famous people that are in the church. And I thought that that was a pretty big feather in their cap. And so I was pretty upset.

I think I actually lost sleep over it, but she was one of those crazy evangelicals. Like, how could that be? But, anyways, now that things have come full circle and I'm a Christian, I have to say that my number one pick is Breath of Heaven by Amy Grant. Um, it's another, it's kind of similar to Mary, did you know? Because the song is like from the perspective of Mary, uh, just kind of you know, it's also really contemplative, like, oh, you know, why did you choose me to do this, you know, God.

And so, I really like that song. I just like the sound of it. I like the artist, and then just the sincerity of it. It's really calming and soothing and really beautiful sounding.

So, that's my. Last pick. I have tried. Travel many moons. Bless night.

Cold and weary. With a baby. Baby. And I want to go. Wonder what I've done.

Holy Father, you have come and chosen me now to carry your son. Awesome. I was um I was gonna ask you well, it is interesting. There's a whole debate about I I guess there's other groups I'm in where they d they debate whether Mary Did You Know is a good song or if it's terrible. 'Cause there's there's like a group of people that really hate that song.

'Cause they're like, yes, of course she knew. She wasn't stupid. But. There's some things in the song that she wouldn't have known exactly. Like, did you know that he was going to walk on water?

Well, no, she didn't know that. I mean, there's a lot of details that she didn't know exactly. But I think it's a good song. I mean, it kind of annoys me too, because I do think about a lot of the, you know, how a lot of people do make Mary an idol too. And there's a concern there.

But overall, I do think that it glorifies Christ, even though it's addressing Mary in the song. You know, I like how it calls him like the king of all creation and all that. I'm like, yeah, that's totally true. And I get where some people could be not liking the song. I really do see where that could come from.

But you know what? I like it and I'm not apologizing. Yeah, so I was going to ask you: do you have a favorite rendition of that? Just 'cause it's one of your runners up. You know what?

I don't. I've heard a lot of renditions of it, but I can't even name one off the top of my head. I'm more of a song person typically than I am an artist person.

So I don't really remember. I don't really connect the artists with the songs half the time. Yeah, that's kind of how I am too, a lot of the times. Yeah, I really love that song. This wasn't my third, my top choice, or my last choice, but I thought it'd be worth mentioning because, yeah, there is a lot of heated discussion about like, well, I mean, of course, you know, it's insulting.

She knew all this, but I agree with you that she didn't know he was going to walk on water. I mean, if you think about it. Christ had 12 men that followed him everywhere he went, right? And they even kind of struggled to understand what he was doing, what he was teaching. You know, sometimes I imagine that probably in their minds, they still had this idea that a lot of the Jews had of that he would somehow free them socially or politically, you know, from the Roman.

rule over them. And so like he was slowly opening their eyes that he he's there. to free the captives spiritually, not to free the captives. You know, in terms of freeing them from literal jail, you know, opening the sight to the blind was, you know, it's a physical reality that's pointing to his spiritual mission and work.

So I think even with them, they struggled to really understand until Pentecost, you know, when the Spirit was poured out on the church, and that's when they really were empowered and understood, and God was working through them. And when Christ promised, he said, you know, you will do greater works than these. I think that's what he was speaking of. He wasn't saying that you can do more than God, because I mean, then, you know, obviously God is God. But I was reading a commentary about that.

And they were saying that it's not greater in. Magnitude, but greater in scope, in terms of you know, when Christ would perform miracles, it was in limited kind of settings, and so and the gospel is being spread in a very relatively small geographical area into a smaller group. And then, once he opened the gospel to the whole world, then it would just spread like wildfire throughout the world.

So, in that sense, they were greater. And so, I think even then, you know, even during his ministry, when he was performing these miracles, I don't think they really understood very well.

So, to criticize and say, Well, Mary knew all this, I'm like, Well, I don't think she really did, you know, I don't think that. She really understood that Yahweh was going to come down into the The child that she would give birth to, you know, and what that really meant.

So I think it's a really. I I enjoy it too, just like you, and I think it's really theologically kind of Kind of contemplative to think about all these things. And it reminds us that, yeah, it really we kind of take it for granted sometimes, in a sense, you know, like, oh, God took on flesh and you know, he became the savior, but it's like to them, to Jews at that time, it was such a revolutionary idea that God could bridge the gap between creator and the created, and he could take on flesh. That was just so revolutionary. Yeah, and honestly, I mean, just looking at the massive scope of Christmas music that is out there, just because it is, you know, doctrinally talking about who Christ is, I think it blows most Christian music or Christmas music out of the water.

just because of that you know and And it's subtle because the audience obviously isn't Mary because Mary's not even alive when. The song was written. The audience is us. And it's a subtle way of kind of giving that gospel message to to anybody's and I love it. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, so yeah, I want to talk about that a little bit because that is one of my favorites also. But all right, let's see. I got a few tabs open.

So the one I actually chose in terms of like my favorite, my third favorite hymn that I wanted to talk about was Angels We Have Heard on High. And like I said, also a lot of this has to do with personal experience and my childhood and attending sacrament meetings. And, you know, we would sing that quite a lot. And it kind of goes how I mentioned before, the two other ones were kind of more, they're a lot more mellow and slower. This one is kind of like just bursting out into exultation and praise of God.

The first verse is angels we have heard on high, sweetly singing o'er the plains and the mountains in reply, echoing their joyous strains. And so it's just seeing of how even the heavens opening up and the heavenly hosts are worshiping and praising God for what's happening in Bethlehem. And the second verse says, Shepherds, why this jubilee? Why your joyous strains prolong what the gladsome tidings be, which inspire your heavenly hosts?

Song.

So it's kind of interesting. I forget which song it was I was talking about before, but it's like the opposite where the first verse was kind of talking about it might be the first Noel. No, it wasn't. It was. Oh, come, all you faithful.

Where the first verse talked about, you know, oh come all ye faithful. And it's speaking of humans, and then it's talking in the second verse about singing, the singing choirs of angels. In angels we have heard on high, it's kind of the opposite. You know, it starts with the first verse talking about the angels praising God and opening and joyous strains over or Christ's advent. And then in the second verse, it talks about the shepherds.

Why are they singing? And it's interesting. I never really thought about it this much, but the second verse is like, it doesn't tell you why they're praising or why they're singing. It's just questions.

So it says, shepherds, why this jubilee? Why your joyous strains prolong? What the gladsome tidings be, which inspire your heavenly song.

So it kind of, if you, I don't know, as I was thinking about these lyrics, it kind of makes me think, yeah, why, why do we celebrate Christmas? Why is this so important? Why do we sing, you know, why have Christians celebrated it for so long? And it kind of makes me at least step back and think, okay, yeah, we talk so much about Christ. Christ's redemption on the cross, which is definitely, you know, that's the focal point of salvation.

But sometimes I think we can take the incarnation, the entirety of the incarnation of Christ for granted, not just his ministry, even, like just his entire life, just his existence, his coming into, taking on human flesh. Why should we? Why do we praise God for that? And it's kind of a more reflective kind of thing, but at the same time, still in this kind of very upbeat, very charged moment. Melodic song.

And the first verse, it's kind of similar to the other hymn that I mentioned: is that it says, Come to Bethlehem and see him whose birth the angels sing. Come, Adora, on bend a knee, Christ the Lord, the newborn King. I just love that phraseology there, Christ the Lord, the newborn King, and just inviting everyone to come and to worship Christ and to bend the knee to him. And we know, you know, it's not just in the LDS temple, but we know that for. From Philippians, I think it's Philippians chapter 2, where it says that, you know.

All will bend the knee to Christ. All will recognize him as Lord.

So. You know, at the final day.

So now it's kind of like inviting you: come now, come to him. Come and worship him.

So I just really enjoyed all these three hymns for kind of similar reasons, I guess, but just very, you know, I like the fact that it's reminding us how we should probably celebrate Christmas. We should bend the knee and thank God for Christ and His incarnation. We should thank Him for the gospel, the good news, the good tidings of His coming to the world. Angels we have heard. Don't have sweetly singing.

O'er the plains and the mountains And by echoing their joy. straight Hmm. It excels his day. Oh, glory it excels his day. Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Thank you for that. So um I will I'll do a couple of honorable mentions as well and hope that I don't uh trigger Mr. Pibb in doing so. Yeah. Yeah.

So, some of my favorites are secular songs. I really enjoy The kind of jazzy version of jingle bells that Frank Sinatra has. I love those J I MG Very Bounce. How goes harder than J I M T Hallelujah. Those have been J-I-N-G-L-E, B-E-double-L-S.

I love those J-I-N-G-L-E bells. Oh. Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Oh, what fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh. Jingle bells, jingle bells, Jingle all the way Oh, what fun it is to ride In a one horse open sleigh Dashing through the snow In a one-horse open sleigh O'er the fields we go Laughing all the way The bells on Father ring.

Making our spirits bright. What fun it is to ride and sing and sleigh in song tonight. Boom bum bum. Ding. Mm-hmm.

Jingle bells, jing, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Oh, what fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh. N-G-L-E-Belt on those holiday J-I I and G L E Bells are those happy JI I am G. Elliot. Double L.

Yes, I love those jingle bells. All away, jingle all the way. White Christmas by Bing Crosby is just classic. Um It doesn't get better than him crooning that tune. And, you know, really, really, really enjoy the instrumental Charlie Brown's Christmas.

Alum. Uh, love that one. And uh, I can't go a Christmas season without listening to Trans-Siddarian Orchestra.

So, yeah, those are some of my honorable mentions. But, like you guys, I stuck with the hymns for kind of my three that we would discuss. My third is Silent Night, and this is one that I do remember singing quite often as a young Latter-day Saint. One, because it was one of my mom's favorites. She she served her LDS mission in Germany, and so the fact that it was written there and she, you know, she studied all about the history of who wrote it.

So that was a big reason why that was a big reason why I enjoyed that song. But also I do remember singing it as a child in primary and actually in public school.

So, it was definitely one that was given to me early. My favorite version of it is probably a version, it's by a group called Low. I don't know if you guys are familiar with them or not. But they do kind of noir type music. It's darker.

And their Christmas album is. In that vein. And they do a version of Silent Night that's perfectly in line with what that hymn is. It's very quiet, kind of understated guitar playing. You can hear the fingers sliding on the strings as they change chords, kind of quiet approach in recording and just sung beautifully.

But I love, you know, kind of similar to what you were saying, Matthew, about the incarnation, I love what kind of the closing lyrics of that hymn say: you know, Jesus, Lord, at thy birth. You know, things, lyrics like that really, really got me thinking as a young person, you know, about the doctrine that's portrayed there. How is Jesus Lord at his birth? And thinking, trying to think through that as a Mormon kid, you do run into some issues. Yeah.

Silent night holy night all is gone all is bright round young virgin mother and child Holy infant so tender and And mind sleep in hell and leave peace sleep in heavenly peace Yeah, thank you. I was going to ask. I don't know if that's derailing the conversation, but I wanted to ask you both when you hear. These hymns and it mentions Christ as Lord. Are you like me and you see it in a kind of a much different light than you did as a Latter-day Saint?

Yeah, for sure. Oh man, hold me back. Hold me back. Paul, I have serious thoughts about this. I had the quote, now I can't find my.

My phone, but but bring them. The birth of Christ being natural, if you guys remember this quote, that it was just as natural as the births of our children. And so, like, kind of one of the epiphanies I had recently is that in Mormonism, the birth of Christ really isn't that special because it's really just part of Progression. You know, Jesus was going to come and be born and have a physical body. regardless of whether we needed him to or not.

Because he still needed to do it for himself. But now, it definitely has a new meaning to it because I understand that God is a totally different species than us. He did not need to come and take on flesh. In order to become exalted, and so what that tells me is that Jesus came. to Earth.

Only to To rescue us. And so that puts a whole new meaning on his birth. You know, to me, it makes it much more miraculous than it was before. And so it's something that I'm. A lot more excited about Christmas now, just realizing that one thing.

Yeah. Christ is Lord different now than when I was LDS. For sure. I mean, I think the view of Lord that I had as a Latter-day Saint, I'm trying to think how to phrase this without being too offensive, but it was more of a taskmaster type of view. He's your Lord because He's the one you obey.

And that's true of the way Christians view. Jesus, right, as Lord. But it also has to do with why he's Lord, more so as a Christian than I kind of thought as a Latter-day Saint. And that goes into what you were saying, Matthew, about the incarnation and the magnificence of that. And yeah, so we don't.

We can't give that, we can't shortchange what that means: that Yahweh, Emmanuel, God with us. Um Was here on earth. It's amazing. And if I can just add one thing to what you said, too, Paul, because I guess kind of my perception too as a Latter-day Saint was that, you know, God was sort of a guide along the path, the covenant path that was eternal, that had always been there. And he had just walked it first.

And so he was there to lead the way. But it wasn't, you know, he allowed. His death allowed me to take That path and to repent, but ultimately it was the path itself. The ordinances and covenants that I made along that path that were going to save me. And even God was subservient to this law.

And if he wasn't following it, he could cease to be God. And so now, you know, when I think about him being Lord, I understand that he is the ultimate being. in the universe that he is not subservient to anything. At all, that he really has a name that is above all other names. I was thinking about how I like a Membrane Conkiite, and he was the one that really emphasized in his Messiah series that Jesus had not yet attained completely.

Completion. You know, he would say he was perfect in the sense he was sinless, but he had not achieved perfection in the sense of exaltation, as you had explained it. And so he needed, like you said, he needed to come to receive his. Body to be glorified in his body and to achieve exaltation truly in his glorified physical body. And so you like you said, it seems kind of like when you when you really understand it from the Christian perspective, there was nothing forcing God to Come down and to save us.

You know, he had no ulterior motives, he had no. He had no vested interest for himself. It was completely... A gracious decision, a gracious act that he determined that he, that he, that the Father would send the Son to earth to take on flesh and to suffer temptation and to turn. redeem mankind.

That was something completely that he did all by grace. Wasn't there was no self-serving aspect to it. And when you think, and one thing I wanted to add too is that when you think about how in the LDS mindset, or at least in the traditional LDS teachings, because you know, nowadays it's really hard to say what a lot of LDS are being taught nowadays, but traditionally, you know, you were taught that this is something that's happened before, that you know, there have been other universes, other creations where a God or a father sent his son into that world to redeem that creation. And so, Heavenly Father here sent Christ to only redeem this creation, and it will be something that we will propagate in the future, potentially in new creations.

So, it's something it's a process that's constantly happening over and over again. And then, when you think about from the Christian perspective, this is the only time this has ever happened or ever will happen. It's a completely unique circumstance. Like those 33-ish years that Christ was on earth, you know, performing all he did, following the will of the Father, being empowered by the Spirit, you know, being led by the Spirit in everything he did, you know, that's a unique thing. Those 33 and a Half years or 30, 40 years, whatever, that will never happen again.

It's that unique, there's that completely unique. Point in time, in the meridian of time, where Christ, where God came down and did all those things. And we even, we to today, you know, it affects everything. You know, although people are trying to change AD to BC or, you know, to BC, BCE to BCE before common era, and AD to CE with common era, but it's still referencing the same timeline, the same point in time, approximately, right? It still starts at the advent of Christ.

So everything, you know, all of history is the focal point is Christ and his coming to the world. And so it's just. It's just so amazing to really ponder all these things now that you know that you know this isn't a process that's going to happen over and over again. This is a one-time deal, and all of it is to the glory of God. And it's and it's really, I mean, of course, it's it demonstrates God's condescension and his love for us, but really the focus is on.

Father, the Father, you know, glorifying himself and sending his son to the earth.

So it's really about the glory of God. Whereas as Latter-day Saint, I was kind of more focusing on just how much Jesus loves me, which is still true. But, you know, it's more like we should be so humiliated, so humbled by this thought that it should just push us, it should drive us to our knees and praising God for everything and remembering that it's all about him. The story isn't about us, it's about him.

So, I don't know, just some thoughts that I had. Yeah, beautiful. I'm glad you brought this up. It kind of flows into The next part of our discussion, at least for the first anecdote that I'll share from my life.

So, what we'll do here, listeners, from here on is we'll kind of discuss some things we remember about celebrating Christmas as Latter-day Saints when we were younger. And my first one is that we had a family tradition that we would go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City to see the lights because they put up thousands upon thousands of Christmas lights. Uh Each year in the trees and Around the grounds of Temple Square. And it's absolutely beautiful, as it is if you go anywhere that puts up thousands of Christmas lights. But it was a yearly trek that we made from the suburbs to downtown, and we'd pick up my grandma.

On the way, and uh, you know, push her around in a wheelchair because she used a walker to get around at that point, and it was much easier for her to be pushed in a wheelchair all around the grounds. But we would, um, the kind of the first thing that we would do, we would enter in through the west gate of Temple Square to the west side of right on the west side of the tabernacle. Um, that corner of the tabernacle has the baptistry where I was baptized. Um, and then we would walk around to the to the north side of the tabernacle, and there was a large lawn. There, that had, you know, in the summertime and spring and summertime, it has several flower beds in it.

And in the wintertime, it was usually covered with snow at that point. And the church would put out a very large manger scene with the Christ child and Mary and Joseph and large. I don't know what they were made of, plastic or wax, who knows? Camels with wise men traveling on the far end of the lawn to see the Christ child and shepherds, and each were lit by floodlights that made it just kind of a beautiful and serene sight to see. And as a young child, that imagery of Christ in the manger as a baby juxtaposed against the North Visitor Center second-story windows.

Which had the large Christus statue overlooking that whole scene, it was again something that made me think. I know it was explained to me: oh, you know, that is him glorified once he's completed his. His progression, right, within the LDS view. But again, it was that beauty of the juxtaposition that made me kind of think on and muse on why is he Lord as a baby? You know, what, why, why should we worship him as a baby if he wasn't yet that up above where you see the Chris I statue?

And so that's kind of my first. my first memory that I'll share. And like I said, it flows out of the very beautiful discussion that you just shared, Matthew.

So any thoughts on that before we go on? I mean, I like your question that you've kind of brought up a couple of times now, Paul, about why worship him as a baby. I think especially just with the LDS mindset that we're the same species. And as a baby, you should be not as far down the path as others, especially.

Somebody who's received the priesthood or received their endowment in the temple, you know, and yet, yeah, people are falling on their knees and uh and worshiping Christ as a baby.

So, that is an interesting thought that you brought up, and it's not one that I've thought of a lot until you started talking about it.

So, yeah, thanks for that. Matthew, you want to share any thoughts on that or share your kind of first memory? Yeah, in terms of. I don't know, as a Latter day Saint, I kind of also thought similar to Christians.

Well, we believe Jesus is God in flesh, so I mean, he deserves worship, right? Not because of anything he's done, but at the same time, yeah, I guess you're right in the sense that if you think about it really Like you said, it's interesting because he is God in flesh, but when you're a Latter-day Saint, you're thinking things in terms of progression, as we've talked about kind of this whole discussion. And at this point, when you think about just when Christ was first born, why does he deserve worship? And it's, and it's, and I don't know, maybe, maybe I was convinced myself that it's like, well, he deserves it because he's already God. But then that would conflict with my ideas about, well, he's still, he's still not a perfected God, he's not a completed God, you know, like the Father is.

And so maybe it was more of a like, well, we're commanded to worship him.

So that's why we do it in terms instead of being like, and I've and I've run that into that problem a lot with Latter-day Saints too. It's like, why do you worship, you know, whether you, whether you claim to worship God the Father and Jesus or all three persons of the Godhead, which a lot of Latter-day Saints will disagree on, even on that point, you know, which of the persons do they worship? I'll ask, so why is the Father worthy of worship and not his God? Or the God above him, or the God above him. You know, why don't you worship them?

Why do you only worship the Father? And a lot of the consistent answers that I got were that. People would answer simply, well, we're commanded to worship the father, you know, so it's it's fulfilling a command. There's nothing inherently worthy of worship in the father in what, in what those responses were. And that really kind of blew my mind.

But then also, there were some that said, What was the other one? Oh, there was, they were saying, It's because he's our father, he gave birth to us. He literally, you know, he's our spiritual progenitor. And so that, but then I was like, well, but his God was his spiritual progenitor. You know, so if you're going by bloodline or spirit line, whatever you want to call it, you know, why worship just the one immediately above us?

So that one kind of fell apart for me in terms of the logic. But then, so then the only really valid one is because they're commanded to worship him. Because, like you said, we're all species of gods. You know, we're gods and embryo.

So there's a lot of, I don't know, there's a lot to think about. But when you think about it from the Christian perspective, he is, we are not. God. We're not in the same species of God. He's completely different from us.

And so the fact that he took on flesh to bridge that gap, to condescend and, you know, in his condescension to come down and take flesh, you know, he's, we worship him because he is God. He's the single, he's the unique God. He's God in flesh. And so it's just, it's a much different perspective.

So I don't know. I kind of went around in circles, but I hope something out of there makes a little bit of sense. Yeah. Well, I mean, the other question jumped in my head just listening to you, Matthew. And this is that awkward moment where our light-hearted Christmas episode turned into deep theological because we just can't help ourselves because we're all super nerds.

But, you know, if we're all gods in embryo, And some of us are further along in progression than you know. Why don't Latter-day Saints worship the apostles and the prophet because they're so far down the path? You know, it's like, what is the difference really between them and Christ? Wouldn't we all be incomplete gods, you know, in some sense, you know, if you want to get technical about things.

So, yeah, I do like the new Christian perspective where it's just simpler. You don't have all these holes in the theology. It's just. Jesus is God in flesh, and that's it. And we're not.

And that's why. Be worship and yeah, yeah, exactly. And that kind of goes back to my comments about a holy night and that fall on your knees line. You know, in my own journey, Uh, that question of okay, so why worship him as a baby? It was a simple.

Kind of simple question I was asking as a child and thinking about. And my own journey eventually brought me to where I knew Christ as Savior. Right, the cross. The focal point, as you brought up earlier, Matthew. And at that point, then, yes, of course, you fall on your knees and you worship, right?

But even then, you're worshiping the Christ of the cross.

So the question kind of still remains: why worship the baby? And And that then brings questions of, you know, okay, so what qualified Jesus? To save by dying on the cross? And what is My relationship to him and to God that necessitates that. And then that kind of brings you to that line: oh, oh, holy night, you know, fall on your knees, oh, hear the angel voices.

Why are the angels singing? They're not saved by the cross, but yet they're praising. And rejoicing at the birth of Of Jesus into the world. And it brings you kind of full circle to what you were just describing, Michael, that we worship him because he is God. And I don't think you get there.

On Mormon theology. I never did as a Latter-day Saint. And the fact, too, I think that's kind of that make that doesn't make sense to me now looking back is we follow you know in the Bible Christ gave the the injunction he gave the pattern of praying he would say to pray to the father in his name and that's certainly primarily what we do in in in in our christian churches but there is a power and there's there's a i don't know and in terms of me it's it's like there's a connection you can make when you can literally when you can address your prayers to the son and a lot of times in our prayers and worship you know they'll start with praising the father and then we'll and then he'll address the son and then you know even the holy spirit um To actually not just thank the Father for sending the Son, but thanking the Son directly for what He's done for us. We can communicate to the Son and say, Thank you, Lord, for. Taking on flesh, for submitting to the Father, for accomplishing this on our behalf, because we couldn't.

I don't know. There's a power there, I think, being able to pray to the Lord Jesus. I remember how powerful it was the first time. In a Christian church, that I heard someone pray with a Trinitarian formula where they addressed each member of the Trinity and thanked them and addressed them for certain blessings and certain Things that they have provided. It was very powerful to hear that.

And just the incarnation itself, just the birth of Jesus. You know, we see the angels in heaven, you know, praising and worshiping God. We see the sun in the manger, and we see, you know, the spirit, it was the working of the spirit in Mary to bring about the birth of Jesus. It's a very Trinitarian act, just the act of Jesus coming into the world. We focus so much on the Son, but really it's all three members working in unison.

And, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, I'm not going to push the Calvinism thing, but it's kind of like, you know, when I understood the doctrines of grace, right, you start seeing them everywhere, you know, and now I can't unsee it.

So I don't know, it's a similar kind of thing. Once you understand the Trinity and you understand the unity of God and the three persons completely unified, and you see that all over scripture. And so I see it in the incarnation as well. Yeah. All right, Matthew, do you have a memory from when you were younger that you'd like to share?

I mean, I don't know. I don't really have a specific memory, but I do have similar. Memories of walking at Temple Square too and seeing the lights and just contemplating, you know, everybody's all kind of in that same, that same. Mood of you know that we're all similarly, you know, we're believing in the same things and we're thinking about Jesus. And I kind of like that environment.

But I also, but there's a so there's a kind of like a Christmas village that they put up in downtown Ogden every year. And I think, and it wasn't just me that said it, there was a friend I was with last week who said, who agreed with me or who said the same that the lights in the Ogden Square are just so much more elaborate, you know.

So we'd go, you know, there's just lights everywhere. There's, you know, millions of lights that they put up. And they have a little village there where they have kind of like little buildings, little boxes where you can look inside and there's There's kind of like glass, and you can look inside, and there's like little scenes in there, and in each kind of individual one. And most of them are kind of like based on like. Christmas traditions in terms of like Santa and elves and reindeer and stuff like that.

But, but I just have a lot of really fond memories of going there with my family around Christmas time and just spending time with them and seeing all the lights and being out in the cold, brisk air and just enjoying the kind of the season. But in terms of like specifically Christian, you know, focused things, we didn't, you know, we never really were super into like reading scriptures together the night before or anything like that.

So, but, but I just really remember to have a fond memory of growing up and just being in that time period. And of course, you know, all little kids love presents, right?

So you're kind of looking forward to that. And my birthday is in December too.

So, so, um, So I just like that time of year. And, you know, it's even if you're not really religious, because there were times when I wasn't very, you know, I wasn't, I was neither really super active LDS church or I wasn't a Christian yet, to where, you know, in general, you just think more about others. You know, you think more about. How to help others, or you're less concerned with yourself in general.

So I just liked just kind of that atmosphere. It, you know, how kind of like how Mondays you can feel what a Monday feels like. And, you know, it feels different from a Friday. You know, just the December time period just feels different. And, you know, sometimes it uplifts you from all kind of the worries and the cares of school or work or whatever to just have some, you know, have all these people, you know, setting up lights and just enjoying themselves and spending time with family.

It's just kind of a different atmosphere that I've always enjoyed. Yeah, good.

So let's get a little lighthearted here. What were some of the favorite Christmas gifts that you received as a child, Matthew? Yeah, favorite Christmas gifts.

Well, yeah, I was thinking about this.

So I was a huge Power Rangers kid. All right. Loved Power Rangers. I think I was like six or seven when it came out. Yeah, you're the Red Ranger.

Michael, what color are you wearing right now? Blue. Um, black. Man, we can't have two Black Rangers. Oh, well.

Yeah, we didn't call it the name very well. We'd love to fight it out. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's so like there was one Christmas I really remember where, you know, like there was a couple of years in a row where I'd ask for, you know, the the Zords. I love the Zords.

They were like Voltron, you know, they would all fit together and make a giant robot. And there was one Christmas where I didn't even ask for it, but my mom knew I liked it. There was one season of Power Rangers where one the Gold Ranger he had a giant pyramid as his Zord. And I'm telling you, this thing was like two feet wide. It's like the base was like a foot and a half by like a foot and a half.

Like this thing was huge. And it was like, you know, a foot and a half too in terms of height. The box was huge, you know, because it also had the packing material.

So it was like, it was like a two by two by three foot box or something like that. I was like, what the heck is this thing?

So I just remember opening that up and being really surprised. I'm like, I don't know, that was kind of neat. But probably the most memorable was the Nintendo 64. You know, that was the year Zelda was out. That was a good time.

Zelda, GoldenEye. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, GoldenEye is a great game. Even as an adult, I played that a lot on N64.

Yeah, it's a good one. I'm going to have to get the N64 out of my son's room and play it somewhere. The only problem, though, is like, you know, over time, those old joysticks get all messed up.

So hopefully, you have a good controller still. I think we do. Michael, what about you? Any favorite gifts you received growing up? I really don't.

Remember a whole lot. Plus, I'm also a December baby as well.

So it always blends together. Like, was that my birthday, or was that Christmas that I got it? Plus, there's always this thing where it's like, I know that you guys are like splitting the budget between my birthday and Christmas. And it's like the same, it's from the same pool. But I remember, like, there's this computer video game that my dad got me, and it was one that we ended up playing together quite a bit.

But it's like, it was this game where we were both like in like these giant robots and we would fight to the death. And at the end, I'd just totally trash his into like a oblivion. And so, yeah, we just had like a lot of um a lot of time playing that. That game.

So, yeah, we gamed a lot when I was growing up. And oh my gosh, I just had this vague recollection, like one of those reasons that I would totally be going to hell if it wasn't for Jesus Christ. But he ended up eventually we upgraded because that game was super old and the graphics were so cheesy. And then we ended up getting a Dreamcast, you know, which was the big thing. And we got the game Soul Caliber.

And so we would duel at that all the time. You know what that one is, Matthew. And we would just, we would play like these tournaments. It'd be like, okay, best two out of three. I would wager my chores on it.

You know, like if I win, you have to wash my dishes tonight. And he'd lose because I always beat him. And then it's like, okay, we double or nothing. And I'm like, okay, this time if I win, you have to make me a milkshake tonight. And he ended up having to do like all this stuff for me.

By the end, but there was this one day that my brother got stranded. My brother Daniel got stranded on the highway in his car, and he called for. My dad to come pick him up. And my dad looked at me when he got off the phone. He's like, let's play to see who has to pick up your brother.

We had this big tournament and it ended up being a draw. And so we had to play this whole other game just to figure out, like. a tiebreaker who was gonna go get my brother and Eventually, he calls again, and my mom answers the phone, and she's like, What? They're right here playing this game. And he's like, He told me later that he like started crying because he's like, really?

He's like stuck in a ditch somewhere. He's like stuck in a big, you know, in a big, in an encampment of snow. And he's like, I've only got 12 minutes of oxygen left. Are you guys going to finish that tournament or what? He was just on the side of the highway on a normal bright day.

But it was like a 20-minute drive just to get out to where he was.

So then when he found out that we hadn't even left, you know, it's one of those things I look back at and I laugh, but I feel kind of guilty about it too. Like, man, that was just, that was really bad. Whose brother was this? That was my brother, Daniel. Oh.

And he's still kind of messed up. And I think it's probably because of that. No wonder he's just now understanding you. Yeah. Oh, man.

You know, Michael, there was this moment when you walked right into my crosshairs and I did nothing. When you said that you can't really remember gifts that you got for Christmas, I could have gone with an old joke, but I didn't. I held it.

Well, it would have backfired because that's a double-edged sword coming from you, buddy. I know, I know, because now I'm going to start talking about my favorite gifts and you're going to be like, What are those from the 1950s? What are you talking about? You mean like a rotary phone? No, so some of my favorites were constructs.

You guys remember what those were? I loved constructs. I loved getting Legos. Always wanted G.I. Joe's when I was a kid because G.I.

Joe and Voltron were like the coolest things to watch.

So I always wanted G.I. Joe's and Voltrons. But probably my favorite Christmas gift that we got was a family gift that my dad got for us. Um gosh, maybe 1983, it was an Apple IIe home computer. Yeah.

And, you know, it was, it was the first home computer we had. And, you know, we got to play games on it. You know, really bad graphics ski game where you're just like this X coming down this white hill and there's just like a bunch of L's going back and forth across the screen as you slall them. But there was a game called The Bard's Tale. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that or not.

It's like a role-playing game. You can play one of, I think it's either five or six characters and you just kind of go on these adventures through this city trying to, I don't even remember what the, what the. Ultimate goal was that you wander through dungeons and into taverns and you have to complete tasks. It's, I guess it's sort of like Zelda, the pre-Zelda kind of thing. But yeah, so that's kind of my favorite thing.

Do you guys have any particularly humorous memories of Christmastime with your family?

So this is this is. I don't know if I'd call it exactly humorous, but my mom would pretty much force us to go Christmas Carol every year. You know, it was her big thing, and none of us really wanted to do it because it's kind of awkward, you know, especially when you're a teenager. Like, really, I have to go. And it wasn't like we were going to go knock on random people's doors.

Like, they picked out a specific list of people that knew our family and we were going to go sing to them. But yeah, we'd go knock on the door. We'd say, my mom would make these big. Clatters of cookies and things to give out. But it was always like we always had pass-along cards attached.

Like, if you want a Book of Mormon, you know, here's the phone number for this. Or, or we put in like a DVD that the church put out, like Joy to the World when that came out. Or, and we'd always be like at the end, we'd like to read a. A scripture and so we Pull out the Book of Mormon and turn to Alma 42 and pick a passage about Christ. And all the rest of us would still be singing softly, and somebody would read that passage about Christ.

And then we always tried to give out a Book of Mormon. I remember one time specifically, I think we'd gone to my English teacher's house, and she was Catholic, and she. refused the Book of Mormon was like just kind of like pushing it back. And my mom just kind of had this look, like, like, I can't believe you're not, you know, taking this gift, you know, how rude, you know, and me too. I was just of the same mindset.

I'm just like, wow, like some people, I can't even believe them, you know.

So that was just something that kind of sticks out in my mind. I can still picture my mom's face as if it was yesterday. Wow. What do you think she would have done if it, if the shoe were on the other foot? And the Catholic woman was trying to give her, I don't know, like a rosary and a picture of Mary.

You know, what's funny is I think she would have done the exact same thing. Tried to kind of politely push back and You know, but yeah. Whereas I'm more, you know, I don't, I'm the kind of person that doesn't like to offend people.

So I could see myself maybe just being like, you know what, I'll take it, but I want to have a conversation with you about it later. Or if I didn't know. Much about it. I can see me just, you know, putting it somewhere or discarding it. Or something like that, not trying to give it back because it does, you know, it's like somebody's trying to give you a gift and it's important to them.

So I probably would have taken it. All right. So, uh, did you think of that experience when I asked about a humorous? Anecdote because of your singing ability, Michael?

Sorry, didn't let the crosshairs pass that time. Yeah, I see it's war. It's war, Paul.

Okay. All right. Matthew, what about you? Any humorous memories? No, I was trying to think of something and um Nothing national lampin's Christmas vacation or anything like that.

Oh, not really. I just remembered one.

Sorry, Matthew. You didn't have one, anyways, right? No, you're good, Brett.

So my dad is like crazy. But I remember on Christmas Eve, he used to always light the fireplace on fire. And he'd just be like, Santa's not getting in here this time.

Sorry. We don't be like, no, dad, no. You're gonna kill Santa Claus. Did he also eat the cookies and milk right in front of you? Like, see, these are mine now.

He didn't go that far, surprisingly. But yeah, if he'd thought of it, I'm sure he would have. All right. So, um, did you guys have uh live Christmas trees or artificial Christmas trees growing up? Artificial.

Yeah, mine was uh, mine were real, yeah. But I don't do that anymore. Mine are artificial now. Yeah, mine are artificial too now. Um, but that was one of my favorite things to do as a kid was to go with the family to the tree lot and pick out a tree.

Um, it was always kind of magical to go running through the rows of Christmas trees and try to find the exact right one that wasn't leaning too much, that had A nice full, uh, full, you know, set of needles to it. And I remember one year, this is my humorous story. I remember one year my dad. Got this. Kit.

I don't know if you guys, you guys know what a flocked Christmas tree is, right?

So, like, it's white, looks to look like it has snow on it. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Um, and so it's not just like the artificial trees, it's not just like the artificial needles are white, but it actually has some coating on it to make it look like snow. Um, but we got a live tree, and my dad got a hold of this flocking kit. I don't know where he got at the mall or some such, I don't know.

But he brought it home, and it was one of those things where you would hook it up to a canister vacuum and pour in whatever the flocking material was, and then. Put the vacuum on the setting for blow, and you would blow it onto the tree. And he really was excited about doing it. Doing that this year, and we ended up doing it inside, and it was just hilarious because. We had flocking material.

All over our living room. It was everywhere, you know. Vacuum is just pushing it everywhere. I don't know how any of it got on the tree, but the tree was completely white, but. We were cleaning flocking material off of the windows and furniture and vacuuming it up off the floor.

It was everywhere.

So that's kind of my humorous memory. That was the one and only time that we flocked our tree. That does sound like a Christmas vacation. Yeah, he was so excited to do it too. And he thought it would be so great.

And I don't think he was happy at the end of the process. But What about you guys? Did you set up milk and cookies for Santa as a kid?

Well, we did. My Santa, I think, was lactose intolerant for some reason. It's so weird. I don't know why. He had no problem drinking other kids' milk, but mine wasn't good enough for him.

I guess it was like you can only drink so much milk, right, at people's houses before it starts to make you really sick. Mm.

So yeah, it's like the gallon of milk challenge. Yeah. It just you just start. losing it right It eventually comes up. Yeah, my mom made Christmas cookies every year and we would set them out.

And come to think of it, Michael, my dad made similar jokes because we had a wood burning stove. We didn't have a fireplace, but it was like a wood burning stove in the corner of our living room. Um, and he would light that up and make the joke that, you know, oh, how's Santa gonna get in now? He can't come down the You know, can't come down the pipe into the stove. It's lit up.

And did either of you, oh, sorry. Did either of you ever try to stay up and catch Santa in the house? When I was younger, my older sister and I did. And uh A lot of times ended up falling asleep. There was a, we had a wall heater that if you opened the door from my bedroom, It was, it would kind of sat on the wall right behind the door.

And I think waiting up, trying to wait on Santa and falling asleep by that heater is. Probably something because I ended up sleeping by that heater a lot after that.

So I think that probably started off a trend. Yeah, for some reason, my sister growing up claimed to have eyewitness accounts. of seeing Santa or Seeing reindeer on the roof. I think she just had this crazy imagination. But I remember one Christmas Eve, she liked to woke us all up, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

I saw Rudolph on the roof. And we were all looking out the window like, really? Yeah. I didn't I didn't stay up my mom was like she had really had me convinced that Santa knew everything I was doing everything I was thinking so she's like if your eye is still open you know even if you're laying down in bed and your eye is peaked open he's not gonna come he's gonna go to the next house so you gotta be full of sleep or he won't ever come so yeah I was almost like I would want to go sleep earlier to make sure that he'd get there and give me the most presents you know so that everybody else would get the leftovers let me ask this question you know we've talked a little bit about secular Christmas music and and a little bit about santa now and and of course there's the secular there are the secular aspects to Christmas. In American society, especially Santa and reindeer and elves and all of that.

And then there's the commercialism. Of it. I've worked retail at Christmas time. As a teenager, so I know what kind of hell that is and how that can make you a little bit jaded, which I wrote a poem about my senior year of high school, about how jaded it made me feel. Are you going to share that tonight?

You know, I could probably pull it off of the bookshelf if I could find it and share it. But I wanted to ask the question: Is there anything that you can think of from when you were a kid that an experience that helped you cut through all of that and kind of understand the, you know, that Christ's coming into the world is God's gift to us, right? And that's there that kind of lies behind. The celebration of Christmas and the reason for the giving of gifts.

So, is there any experience that you had growing up that you remember that kind of helped you cut through all of that commercialism and realize what the real importance of Christmas is? And while you share and think about it and share, I'll look for that poem. Bethy, you want to go first on this one? And I'm struggling. I'm struggling too, Matthew.

I am really struggling with this because I think growing up, LDS. you i mean They just go right along with it. I mean, I can't think of anything that ever, like, there was ever an epiphany until like a couple of days ago where I realized that, you know, Jesus didn't have to come because it wasn't a natural progression.

So it wasn't until I became a Christian that that epiphany came. Yeah, I'm kind of on the same boat. You know, like, you know, I enjoyed watching all the Christmas things. Themed films, you know, but they weren't really Christ-themed films. They're kind of just like seasonal films.

And they would say, you know, the reason for the season is giving and caring about others and things like that. And so, you know, watching those kind of movies come to me and think, yeah, you know, it shouldn't be about us, it should be about helping people. But I don't know, I don't really think I ever had that kind of an epiphany either as a child. where the focus isn't on Commercialism and the gifts and things like that, but it's more about Christ.

So, yeah, I'm kind of similar. Yeah, there's one I always think of. And I'm, you know, I'm appreciative of my dad for giving us this lesson. We were, I don't know what year it was, maybe 88, 89, somewhere in there. And my dad was out of work and had been laid off and hadn't yet found another job.

And so it was a very sparse Christmas for us. And we were all feeling pretty. rotten about that because we were selfish little kids, you know, and we wanted we wanted gifts. And he found out about a family who had been evicted from the home they were renting. And they were staying with one of our neighbors a couple of houses down.

And while we were having a sparse Christmas, they had Had nothing that year. And, you know, we didn't have any extra that my dad could give. There was nothing in our budget that he could possibly work with to try to help this family. But, you know, he kind of gathered us around as a family and said, hey, this is what Christmas is all about. And we're going to find a way to help this family.

So he got me and my sister and piled us, my older sister, and piled us into the car and said, We are going to go and talk to the managers at local stores and tell them what the situation is, see if we can't get this family. A Christmas dinner and some gifts for each member of the family.

So we went and talked to the manager at Albertson's grocery store and they Pitched in a full Christmas dinner, turkey, all the fixings. And then we went and talked to the manager at, and it actually might have been later on than this because it seems like I was working at Shopco at the time. But we went and talked to the manager at Shopco, which is a place that I was working. No, maybe I wasn't working there yet. My sister might have been.

But they agreed to give each of the children. A gift.

So we got to pick out a gift for each of the children in the family. And then we went to a dollar store that was around that some friends of ours owned and operated, and they agreed to. Also, pitch in some things.

So, picked out some more gifts for the kids. And it's just one of those. Things and I'm really thankful I had that experience as a kid because it helped me to realize you know that you don't always have to have to be able to try to make a difference for people. Um, and yeah, just thankful for that experience that he did that and showed us what Christmas is about. Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

That's great. All right, so uh The mistletoe poem, and then we'll go with one final question, which will be our favorite new tradition as a Christian, post-Latter Saint Christian. All right, so this poem is called Mistletoe. Written in 1996. Boxes line the shelves in perfect order.

The smell of dust permeates the air. And seems to reach out not to choke. to annoy. Time passes slowly. A loud voice blasts over the sound system, buzzing, spitting, idle noise.

Green and red garland circles the store, and on the floor, Two customers fight over the last artificial Christmas tree. The loud sound of the cardboard baler screeches to a controlled laughing fury, drowned out. Bing still sings his notes. Aisles filled to capacity, bumper to bumper. Loud, noisy, annoying, like rush hour traffic.

Rudolph has slipped and Santa has fallen. I am no longer a child. Those are some mad bars right there. You're like, you're well on your way to coffee shop poet. Yeah.

Yeah. We see some jumps. Mike Myers and.

So I married Max Murderer. Whoa, man. Whoa, whoa, man. You know, that's what Adam said when God brought Eve and said, look what I made. And he said, whoa, man.

Oh bad. Oh, all right.

So let's close it out. Favorite new tradition as a post-Latter-day Saint Christian? Mine's not really that elaborate. I usually try to, you know, I'm going through the Bible very slowly from the beginning.

So now I'm in the Psalter or I'm in the Psalms.

So, but I do like to read, I like reading the Luke, the Lucan account of Zechariah and Elizabeth, and you know, the angel Gabriel. Visiting Mary. I like rereading all of that. And yeah, some and you know, maybe one of the other accounts, but I just really like rereading that account. Uh, the you know, the birth of Christ and from scripture, and just kind of thinking about it.

I'm not, I don't know, I'm not really a huge into on my own listening to Christmas music like a lot of other people are. You know, you'll hear it when you're out in the stores and you're out and about, so I don't really do that, but um. Yeah, just try to read scripture related to it and just think about it. All right, good. Michael?

Yeah, so we're in a a pretty interesting situation right now because I guess I've been saved for four years and uh Kind of in a new family, too.

So, this is only our second Christmas together. And so we're kind of at the drawing board where we've been talking about it. Like, we need to actually decide what our traditions are going to be. Is actually a lot of fun because you know, bird, we're sitting there trying to. Try to decide what we're going to make our traditions for the rest of our lives.

But one thing that we have started doing and that I really like that I never did as a Latter-day Saint was going to like a Christmas Eve service. And I really like it. Like the church we go to, they do the candlelit service where they actually give you a candle to hold up. And I think that whole thing is really beautiful. And I like that worship service.

Scared me a little bit last time because they gave my kid a candle. It's a real fire, you know.

So it's like, there goes the church, they don't know what they're doing. But he, I mean, because he drops everything, like all the time. Even the TV remote, like he just, he's got butter fingers. And I'm like, we're all doomed, but it ended up, so they kind of stressed me out a little bit, but it ended up being all good. And I'm looking forward to doing it again this year and every year from now on.

Yeah. Thanks, Michael. My favorite as well is the candlelight service at our church. The first time experiencing that, going in, you get the candle with the little, I don't know if your church does it, the little plastic cup around it so that the wax doesn't drip on your hand. And then it comes to that point in the service where they light the first one at the front and everybody shares and lights theirs in each pew as it goes back through the whole sanctuary.

And lights are out and the the sanctuary is lit completely by uh the candlelight and then we sing. Um, a Christmas hymn. It's just a very beautiful experience, and I remember how powerful it was the first time, and it's something that I enjoy each year. I'm hoping that I don't know what it will be like this year with COVID. I did listen into Our online service.

A couple of weeks ago, and they were announcing that they are doing in-person Christmas Eve services. I don't know if there'll be candle. Candle light because I'm not sure they'll want everybody because typically they reuse the candles between services, so I don't know that they'll want everybody touching those like that and then reusing them. But hopeful that they'll have it be candle lit in some way, and I'm sure they will. But yeah, we had to put in for tickets because of the restrictions on the number of people that can be there.

But looking forward to that and hoping it'll be beautiful as it is in past years.

So, yeah, well, I went to one of my first Christian churches that I went to, they did a light service, but they used Like your cell phone, like everybody holds your cell phone up. All I'm gonna say is it cannot even compare to using candles. No. The candle is so much better. And I think it's a lot more reverent than just, you know, throwing your phone up there, like, come on.

Yeah. And I can totally relate to the fear with Nathan and the candle, Michael, because we started going to a Christian church 10 years ago and You know, our two youngest, Carly was five, and Hope was. Just barely three, or not even three yet.

So, um.

Well, I guess just barely three. At the candlelight service that first year.

So, yeah, when they handed them to Carly, it was like, oh no, and don't do that. But Michael, I figured you would have been worried about the church burning down when you walked through the door. Yeah. Well, these are special churches that they want depraved sinners.

So yeah. But it was funny because I remember we went and this this elderly lady came and handed Nathan a a candle. She's like, oh, you don't have one. And I'm trying to like I'm like thinking like, yeah, it's because we didn't want him to have one. Right, right.

Okay. There is a reason here. Of course, he ends up with a candle and I'm just like, great. Just imagine having to clean out like hardened wax all over his pants or whatever. It makes me wonder if there's ever been like churches burned down from like handing kids these candles.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure it's probably happened at least once. But all right, so I'll close this out. Had a little fun here tonight, guys.

I appreciate being together with you again after a few weeks off. I really have enjoyed our conversation. And to our fireflies listening in, a very Merry Christmas to you. May the peace of Christ be with you and yours. Yes, Merry Christmas.

Thank you. I had to mention a church burning down right at the end of the episode, didn't I? Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to all, and Mr. Pibb, a good night.

Yeah. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts. gold and frankincense and myrrh.