In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1-9, which calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own.
It comes to us from without, thus, outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.
We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. You are listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. I'm Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist. I'm Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist.
I'm Paul Bunyan. Let's get into it. The fourth LDS article of faith states, we believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are, first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. In our previous episode of the Outer Brightness podcast, we each discussed our past experiences as Latter-day Saints related to the necessity of baptism and the sacrament, what most Christians refer to as the Lord's Supper, communion, et cetera. Whether differences in viewpoints on the sacraments or ordinances disrupt the unity of the Christian church and how we now prepare and receive the Lord's Supper and baptism as born again Christians.
In this episode, we would like to take a closer look at the subject. In previous episodes, we have described our personal journeys out of the LDS church and toward biblical Christianity and continuing our faith journeys. One topic that was a particular concern to me was what water baptism is, what it signifies, who must receive it, and whether it is still an absolute requirement for eternal life. The same was true for the sacrament. Why do Christians do it?
Do they believe the same things that I did about it? Does God do anything in the sacrament or is it a memorial only? During this episode, we hope to address some of these questions and describe how we have grown in our understanding of scripture concerning the Lord's Supper, the Lord's table, or communion. While we three may have differing views on these topics, we recognize that there is room for disagreement based on the teachings of the word of God. We all recognize this to be an important topic and that baptism and communion are commanded to be observed in Christ's church by the Lord himself. While we may not understand them in the same way, we acknowledge that we are brothers in Christ's church and that we each are seeking to follow him, to be conformed to his image, and that we must be willing to be teachable. A Christian's journey never ends.
All of this conversation kind of reminds me of one of the experiences that was kind of a straw that helped to break the camel's back. I was teaching elders quorum and this happened maybe within the last year before we left the LDS church. The missionaries had brought with them one of their investigators and he was a rough looking dude. He had a long black trench coat, long hair, was the kind of unshaved that he wasn't growing a beard, he was just unshaved. Reeked of cigarette smoke, everything that for a Latter-day Saint is absolutely not the way you would go to church.
No white shirt and tie, t-shirt and jeans under his trench coat. He came to elders quorum with the missionaries and we were teaching in the chapel, so we were up on the stand. They're all sitting in the chairs up on the stand and I'm standing by the pulpit facing them teaching. Everyone in elders quorum sat on one side of the aisle and he and the missionaries sat on the other side of the aisle the entire hour that I was teaching.
No one would sit on the same side of the aisle with him. He was clearly hungering and thirsting, but he wasn't clean according to LDS dictates. It was one of those experiences that I was like, this is not the way things are supposed to be, there's something wrong here that causes this kind of thing to happen.
It was a tough experience. I think we should also add though that Christians are not immune to that kind of thing. I think that the Christians are also, we're all broken in a sense, to some degree we're all trying to seek after God, we're all trying to overcome the power of sin in our lives. But at the same time, like you said, I think there's a difference between an individual gap between what we are and what we should be and kind of a systemic difference, a systemic view of something. Like you said, it's a doctrinal view that we shouldn't be partakers of something that's unclean in the Latter-day Saint church or you shouldn't associate with that kind of a person.
Whereas in Christianity, I think we focus a lot on, at least I think we try to focus a lot on reaching out to those who do need it, who are the poor and hungry and who are seeking after God. Of course, I don't share that experience to be like, oh, I'm better than everybody else I'm not. I do my share of being judgmental for sure, for which I have to repent. But it was just one of those experiences that made me realize that maybe the doctrines about individual perfection and strict righteousness can lead to some Pharisaical behavior in the way that you treat people.
Like you said, it's the human condition. You look at the way Christ taught and the way he was criticized. He's with publicans and sinners. Well, coming into a Christian church, the way that's preached is, well, yeah, that's what we should all be doing. If we're going to follow our Lord, that's what we should all be doing.
We should be welcoming those people who are hungering and thirsting and not seeking for the best places to sit. Well, I remember too, when I first came into Christianity, I had this men's group and I had a meeting at my house and they're all talking about how they came to faith. And one of them is kind of this bigger, kind of dangerous looking guy to me. And it's like, yeah, Christ revealed himself to me while I was in prison.
And I'm sitting there like just kind of inching away from him because I'm just like, this just doesn't seem right. So coming from my background, it's like Christ just comes to those who are righteous, who are already kind of clean and are taking care of things and closing that gap themselves. Not people who are behind bars or whatever. But yeah, it's definitely been a change in my perception, for sure. And I definitely like the doctrine of, we're all sinners. We all just sin in different ways.
Yeah, for sure. I had similar experiences in men's group Bible studies, Michael. One of the first times I went to a Bible study at my church, there was a guy in there named Mike. And he just shared very openly about a very similar story to what you were just talking about, like how he had been in prison and he had come to the Lord in prison. And it just struck me. I don't think in the LDS church, if someone had been in prison, that I ever would have learned that from their own mouth because they wouldn't have felt comfortable sharing it.
I maybe would have learned it via gossip, but I never would have heard it from somebody's own mouth, I don't think. And it's just one of the differences, where if you know your Lord and you know you have been saved and you're accepted and you have peace with God, you can share your story with others freely and it's life-giving to you and to them. I didn't experience that kind of humility, that kind of authenticity within Mormonism. It's been amazing to see in Christianity. Yeah, amen. And it's just been amazing to be able to be authentic as well and just know like, hey, everybody that I'm here talking to is broken. We're all sinners here. We all know that it's Christ alone that gives us our hope. And so, yeah, I mean, I definitely see it in others, but I see it in myself as well.
So it's been really nice. Yeah. So we got quite far afield of maybe the question, but it's related to what Paul is addressing in this passage. So we can go on, Matthew. Actually, is it okay if I kind of continue on that conversation a little bit, which ties into the passage? Far be it from me to try to stop you.
Yeah, we're going to make this a seven-session run. All right. But no, the one thing that came to mind that I wanted to ask and I didn't put in the questions was it talks about, okay, here it says, For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. A big part of Latter-day Saint worship is being worthy, is making sure that you are living the commandments, making sure you're living to some standard. And if you're not, then you should not partake of what they call the sacrament, but that's the bread and water.
And so I wanted to talk about this. There's this talk about being unworthy or those who drink without discerning the body, things like this. So do you think this is the same kind of worthiness that Paul is talking about in this passage as compared to Latter-day Saint doctrine where they say that you have to be living a certain standard in terms of the commandments being possibly, you know, pretty close to temple worthy? Is that what Paul's talking about here?
Or do you think maybe he's talking about something else? I'll take a crack at it first here, but I would say that it's not the same thing that Latter-day Saints are implying because what they're basically implying is that, you know, we are worthy of going to the temple, which is, you know, the house of the Lord, and we're worthy to enter Christ's presence. Now to enter Christ's presence, we need to be perfect. That is the standard that he has set.
And so that is not a possible standard for us to keep. So I know that when I was LDS, you know, if I took the sacrament, it is because I was sweeping sins under the rug or trying to say that maybe they weren't that big of a deal, you know, just kind of justifying things. But in reality, I don't think we would ever take or be able to take the sacrament or communion if worthy meant, you know, you're ready to enter heaven's gates right now. And so when I look at that, I just, you know, what they've kind of said in my church is, yes, we should examine ourselves if there's sin that we are just not repentant of, you know, we may want to abstain from taking it, you know, for just sinning all we want, kind of. But yeah, I think really it's, you know, if you're not a Christian or you're just not taking it seriously, you know, I think that's kind of what it's talking about there, but I don't think it can be talking about the LDS interpretation. Right, good. And it's not similar to the Roman Catholic interpretation where you have to go to confession and confess your sins to the priest and be absolved of those sins before you can partake of, well, what they call the Eucharist or the mass, right? So we would also disagree with that.
Yeah, I agree. But I think that, you know, that there is the sense in which discerning the body has to do with an individual believer, right, because he says examine yourself, right? So the Lord's Supper, it signifies that a believer participates in the sacrifice of the Lord, right, receiving its benefits that come through that sacrifice to believers, but also participating with the Holy Spirit in the work of sanctification to purge sin from that believer's life, right? So one with God in Christ, but also one with fellow believers in Christ, right? If we go back to the context of the Love Feast, right, the Love Feast is what Paul is critiquing here as people who are not having sight of their fellow believers, right?
They're drinking to drunkenness and they're not keeping sight of the needs and the welfare of their fellow believers. So the Lord's Supper signifies to God that a person is in covenant relationship to God and renounces all of their false gods, as we talked about, all of their idols. And as we discussed with baptism, it signifies who's on the Lord's side in the battle between good and evil.
The Lord knows who are the elect, right? It's not as if God only knows who is in covenant relationship with him by who partakes, but there's real significance in the Lord's Supper. And so if we're talking about that discerning the body thing and we put that in the context of the Love Feast, you know, it's that horizontal and vertical relationship thing, right?
Or vertical, right? The relationship of the individual believer with God, but also horizontal, right? And Paul does that when he talks about the body of Christ, he talks about the church, right?
The church is the body of Christ. He does that elsewhere. And so I think he's doing a similar thing here too, right? Because of the context of the Love Feast, right? He's kind of saying like, hey, if you don't have that regard for your fellow believers, if you're coming here to this place, this feast that should be a feast of unity between ourselves, but also with God, if you're coming here and getting drunk and rowdy and eating gluttonously and showing no regard for your fellow believers who are going to be going hungry, you might as well have stayed home and you're eating and drinking judgment on yourself because you're not partaking in what this is in the way that it's intended. So yeah, and it's an interesting way that he uses discerning the body, but I think he's playing with that term body in the way that he does elsewhere in referencing the church as the body of Christ.
But I think he's doing both too. Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you for that. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off at the end. So I'm going to, I'm going to read something from Kistomache that I thought was interesting. He, he pretty emphatically says that it's specifically speaking of the body of the Lord and not of the body believers.
And I'll give his reasons why, but I'm not saying that it's entirely impossible either. You know what I mean? I think I do kind of lean towards what you were saying, Paul, that it's because it does come from the context of, you know, we're all should be unified in the body of believers and what we're partaking of is represents the body of Christ. So what he says here is, does the term body in verse 29 refer to the body of the Lord as in some translations? Is it an abbreviation for the body and blood of the Lord? Verse 27. Or is it a reference to the body of believers? Chapter 10, verse 16. Almost all commentators understand this verse, verse 29, in the light of its immediate context that speaks of the body of the Lord.
They see a close connection between verses 27 and 29. Commentators understand that the better manuscripts omit the words of the Lord as modifiers of the term body. Yet they understand that this particular term is a shortened form of the full clause, the body and blood of the Lord, in verse 27. And lest they doubt that Paul expects the reader to perceive that he means the body of believers. Paul is referring to the body of the Lord, which the communion bread and cup represent. So I wanted to bring that up because some manuscripts have that doesn't just say body on that last phrase. It does say body, body and blood of the Lord. So I think in some manuscripts they they probably expanded on that to make it more specific. Do you know what I mean?
Whoever was copying it, they probably they probably copied that way. Whether that's original or not, I'm not sure I've gone to the textual criticism of that, but I just wanted to give that argument that he had that he thinks of specifically talking about the body of the Lord. But I think it could also be talking about both, as you said, Paul. OK, we're talking about taking the bread and wine unworthily. I think for most commentaries I've read in Sam Waldron's exposition of the sixteen eighty nine confession, he says that the most important and I think most commentators is the most important is that we need to have faith in Christ. That's the absolute essential. So when you're discerning the body and blood of Christ in the supper, what that represents, if you don't have faith, it doesn't matter what you your mind can assent to. You know what?
What you can think about it. You need faith. You should not be taking the Lord's Supper if you're not a believer. And as you said, Paul, if you take it and you're not a believer, you know, that's the most important thing.
Then you can bring judgment upon yourself. And it says even later, Paul says that some became sick and even died because of it. So it's a serious thing.
It's really serious. In the eyes of God, if you're taking the supper and you shouldn't be. And so it's a really important thing to remember that we need to be believers in Christ. And some have taken that to mean discerning the body. I've heard some people use arguments of that to say that you need to discern that it contains the localized physical body of Christ. You know, I think I've heard that from both Lutherans and Roman Catholics, and I just don't think that's what it's saying.
We've kind of talked about the context. I don't think that's what it's implying. But in terms of being unworthy in our church, we talk about, you know, you should be a true believer in Christ, be trusting in him alone for your salvation, and you should be a member of a church in good standing. So I don't think you have to be sinless, obviously.
That's going way too far. At the same time, as Michael, you said we should not be practicing in gross sin, you know, and adulterous relationships or whatever it may be, you know. So, yeah, that's definitely important. But it doesn't mean like in the LDS church, I think, Michael, you and I have talked about how, you know, sometimes preparing for the sacrament in the LDS church, we'd go through a week and be like, okay, did I repent of this? You know, what sins did I not remember? And, you know, kind of freaking out about making sure that I was, that I'd repented of everything. But I don't, I mean, I think about things like that in the Lord's Supper and ask for forgiveness now. But it's not, it's not like an OCD kind of thing where I'm freaked out, like, you know, am I not ready for this?
Am I not worthy of this? It's more of a just trusting in God and his promises. Well, and I remember my parents, like, would drill this story into me all the time that I guess one of the LDS prophets, like one day, didn't take the sacrament.
And people asked him why he didn't. He said, well, because my mind wandered for a minute away from Christ. And so, like, I would take the sacrament sometimes, and then I'd feel guilty, like three minutes later, because my mind just goes all over the place. That's just how I am. And I'd be like, Oh, my goodness, I wasn't taking like this time seriously enough. Like, I've already committed sin again. So just be like, instantaneous with me, like, I've already done something wrong. And maybe I shouldn't have even taken that.
I'm glad not to think that way anymore. Yeah, that's pretty intense. For, for as much as it's interesting, because I mean, I can kind of see what they're striving for. And I can see that there's some hint of, you know, desire to try to please God, I think, you know, he wants to stay completely focused on Christ.
But it's from like a legalistic perspective, you know, it's from this, like, well, I've got to do it 100%. I've got to obey because if I don't obey perfectly, then I won't be blessed. But I think the Lord, he condescended and say to us and saving us and taking on flesh and becoming Savior. He knows we're weak. He knows what we are. Flesh is weak. So I think even, you know, even in the Lord's Supper, you know, your mind might wander for a second.
I don't think he's going to condemn us for that. So I'm really thankful for that, too. That it's not like you have to be 100% focused, 100% prepared, 100% perfect. I wanted to talk a little bit about, too, about maybe this kind of ties in with this question.
So maybe I can just lump them together. So comparing chapters 10 and 11 of 1 Corinthians. So the last two passages we looked at, what did partaking of the sacrament or ordinance of the Lord's Supper signify on behalf of the believer? What did it signify on behalf of God?
And this is a question I wanted to ask two questions ago, but I'll ask it now. In LDS theology, they believe that when you partake of the sacrament, quote unquote, worthily, you receive a remission of sins. Do you believe that this is one of the blessings that a believer in Christ receives in partaking the Lord's Supper? So, Paul, would you like to go first? Sure.
No, to your question. And the reason I say no is because when someone is a believer in partaking of the Lord's Supper, they have already been regenerated and justified, right? And so they stand worthy before God because they are covered in the blood of Christ. They are covered in his robes of righteousness. So past, present, future sins are nailed to the cross. And so they are not receiving, when they partake of the sacrament, whether they do so weekly or quarterly as some churches do, they are not receiving remission of sins committed within the last week or within the last three months.
They stand righteous before God. If they were to die and God were to view them, he would see Christ. That is the whole purpose of the gospel. That's the whole reason that Christ went to the cross. So I would say no, that's not one of the blessings that is communicated through the Lord's Supper.
What I would say is that the blessing of knowing that one is covered by the robes of righteousness of Christ is something that comes through the Lord's Supper in that real presence and in that communion. So that's how I would answer that. Okay.
Let me follow up a little bit on that. So in 1 John, maybe I should just quote it because I know I'm going to mess it up. And I don't want to meet John someday and have him getting angry at me. So in 1 John chapter 1.
Okay. So here Paul is from 1 John 1. He says, but if we walk in the light as he is in the light, speaking of Christ, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So when you're saying that, and I agree that when Christ nailed our sins to the cross, that's all of our sins. So do you see the process of continued repentance and forgiveness of sins part of the Christian life? Or do we see all of our sins as forgiven? And so do you see what I'm trying to go for here or what I'm trying to ask here? Is there no room for possibly the Lord's Supper confirming that forgiveness of sins again upon the believer?
Yeah, I would push back a little bit. I think I covered that in my final statement. Yes, I think that's part of it. Of course, when I partake of the Lord's Supper, it is a time of reflection and repentance, but not in the sense that I am unworthy. That somehow the sin that I've committed and the participation that I'm having with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification makes it so that I will ultimately not be saved in the kingdom of heaven or will be saved in a lower level of heaven. None of that plays into my thinking at all, because that's not the gospel. So is there room for repentance, continual repentance within the Christian life?
Of course there is. That's part of sanctification. As the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin in your life, you participate with the Holy Spirit in that process of ruining your life of that. But again, it's not within the context of, oh, I'm going to lose my salvation because of this. All right, great. Thanks for clarifying.
I ask that not because I think you're one of those sinless perfectionists, the ones that believe once you're saved, you no longer can sin. I don't know if you've heard of those guys. Well, I didn't know they were real. I mean, I've heard the thought before. Oh, yeah. I'm the only one. Yeah.
Jesse Morrell. He's also an open theist. He's a very interesting guy, but he's a very famous online apologist and he's very into this sinless perfectionism. So, yeah. So I wanted to make sure that we kind of cover that thought, because I know Latter-day Saints would probably ask that. You know, they'd say, well, you don't need forgiveness. Does that mean you no longer sin?
Does that mean that you can just sin all you want and you don't need to ask for forgiveness? So we've talked about that many times before, but I think in this context, it's good to go over it again. Right. Awesome. So, yeah, I wasn't trying to insult you or your beliefs or anything, Paul. So I hope you didn't take offense to that. Not at all.
Great. I think if I had anything else to add on to that. We don't believe in a kind of Roman Catholic view of states of grace where you're either in a, you know, like if you commit a mortal sin, you've lost your justification, your state of grace. And you need to go through the sacraments of penance and absolution to to receive that grace again. It's not like you're going from death to life and life to death constantly back and forth. If you're justified, you're justified for all time. So that's kind of what you were saying, right, Paul?
Yeah. And it, you know, for anyone who really wants to try to understand my position, if you read through Romans seven, Paul does some really interesting things there and writing there about distinguishing between the sin within him and me. And so if you read through Romans seven and kind of pay attention to that, it's really interesting where he's placing the kind of the culpability for the sin that he commits, even though the things that he that he really doesn't want to do, he does. And he doesn't understand why that is.
He doesn't understand himself. Right. He talks about that in Romans seven. And so it's really interesting to pay attention to what he what he does there with where that when one is in Christ, where that culpability lies. And and you're working with the Holy Spirit to purge that sin out of your life. And and the sin within you is kind of responsible for that sin now where me is not right, because me is in Christ and and safe within Christ. So it's a fascinating chapter.
Yeah, it's a great recommendation. Excellent. What about you, Michael? Do you want me to reread the question?
Yeah, maybe we read it real quick. So in reviewing the passages of chapters 10 and 11 of first Corinthians that we've been talking about. So kind of a three part question. What did partaking of the ordinance of the Lord's Supper? What did that signify on the behalf of the believer? What did it signify on behalf of God? And do you think it's similar or the same blessing that LDS claim in their sacrament that they receive a remission of sins and they need to constantly take this every week to receive a remission of sins?
Is that applicable to the Lord's Supper in the Christian church? Yeah. So I guess just briefly touching on that first one. I mean, I think what I think that all kind of ties into each other.
So I'm just going to kind of answer the second question and tie it in. But no, I don't I don't think at all that it is the same thing that Latter-day Saints believe. And I guess just to kind of echo what what Paul said, because I did catch that part. But he said exactly what I would have said that, no, you are if you are justified and you are pronounced clean and that righteousness of Christ is imputed to you, then there's really no need. I mean, there's there's no other justification that's going to occur because Christ is an infinite being of infinite righteousness. And so when he gives you when he accredits his righteousness to you, it's not like there's a limit or a boundary that you come up on and then you've got to take a ladder to the next step. It's like he told the woman in the well at the well, sorry, not in the well, in Romans, in John chapter four, he said the the water that I shall give to you will be a fountain springing up to everlasting life. So it goes all the way there. You know, it's not just a step.
You know, he he gets us all the way there. There is a sanctification process that takes place, but it doesn't have to do with our our justification. So earlier we were we were reading, you know, about the, you know, about idolatry. And I think we've talked about it in this podcast before, but it's like our our hearts just want to create idols all the time. And I think, you know, we just want something physical to hold on to, you know, just makes us feel like we're more I guess we've got a tighter grip on eternal life. And I think, you know, in my perspective, baptism and the Lord's Supper are there to to fill that need for us so that we have something physical that we can actually hold on to and say, OK, like this is my this is my reminder that I am saved, that I've been forgiven and that I'm in Christ now. And I think that's that's really the purpose that it serves.
So, no, it's it's not like what goes on in the Mormon Church at all, if that answers your question. Oh, yeah, definitely. I really liked how you said that it fills that need that we have to have something physical to connect to.
And I think that's really true. I know that there's different views on certain topics, so I don't want to be too off putting. But I'm I follow the reformed tradition and reformed are very against icons or images of God because we believe it's a second commandment violation. I'm not an iconoclast. I'm not going to come to your house and destroy all your pictures of Jesus. But, you know, we feel that it's that it's very important to not have images of God or Christ because we want to honor God and we don't want to make images because that image can change your thoughts about how you see God. You know, there are people that say, I really like this particular picture of Jesus first. And somebody will say, I like this particular picture of Jesus. And so they kind of have in their mind that's what Jesus looks like or that's who Jesus is. And so we were kind of against that. And I think going off what you said, Michael, I think God already gave us something physical, an image to point us to Christ.
And it is the Lord's Supper and baptism. Like you said, we're physical beings. We interact physically. Sometimes it's really hard to imagine.
Excuse me. Sometimes it's really hard to imagine a transcendent God who's in heaven, but his being emanates throughout space and time. And he's unlimited in power and knowledge. And he's completely holy and just. And we have almost no comprehension of such a magnificent, awesome being. It's a wonderful thing. But at the same time, it's kind of scary sometimes when I think about it, you know, but I'm just trying to point out that that God is so different from us in the Christian mindset than the Latter-day Saint mindset.
Do you know what I mean? And so having that Lord's Supper and that baptism is a is a something that's familiar and it connects us and it reminds us and it's tangible. And the taste of the, you know, of the fruit of the grape, that's it's bitter and it reminds us of Christ's suffering and of his blood. And, you know, it's just all connecting us to Christ.
And I think that's really important that we recognize that God promises to us. He says it's the blood of the New Covenant when he instituted it in the Lord's Supper. It's the blood of the New Covenant. And it's a covenantal relationship that we have. I know the Latter-day Saints talk a lot about covenants, but Christians talk a lot about covenants, too. Where those in the New Covenant, if you want to see the blessings of the New Covenant, read Hebrews Chapter 8.
He says that no one will say to his brother, no, the Lord, because basically everybody will in the New Covenant knows the Lord. Those in the New Covenant are those redeemed believers. And we're promised forgiveness of sins and we're promised to have the law written on our hearts.
So those are some of the blessings of the New Covenant. And I think when we partake of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, that's God making that promise to us again. Reconfirming that promise to us that we have for a mission of sins in Christ through faith. It's not so it has to always be through faith.
If we don't have faith, it doesn't do anything for us. The Spirit works through the Supper through faith, reconfirming the promises of God to us. And I'm not totally against Zvingli's idea of it being a confession and a profession of faith. I think that's also part of it, because Paul says in this passage that we just read, let's see, for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. So there's also a professional and a confessional part of the Lord's Supper. So we confess our faith in Christ. We recognize that it references his body and blood.
We place our trust in that. And God promises the blessings of the New Covenant to his believers. So there is a covenantal relationship that way. You know, Latter-day Saints believe that their sacrament is covenantal.
So there is that similarity there. But and I think it is through the Lord's Supper, we are sanctified. But as Paul said, it's not like we go from a state of, oh, my goodness, if I die tomorrow, there are sins I haven't been forgiven of.
And then, you know, I'll be dead meat. It's a reconfirming our faith, reconfirming. It's a blessing. It's building us up like spiritual stones in the household of God. So we're being built up. We're being changed slowly, having the power of sin taken out of our bodies, taken out of our minds and spirits. And we're slowly conforming to the will and the image of Christ. So there's so many blessings and promises there. And and we partake of it in through faith and remembering Christ. The benefits of his body and blood are they're given to the believer through the work of the Spirit. So I so I do think there is a sanctification process going on and it does build up our faith and reconfirm our faith.
So there's a lot going on. It's not just pure memorial. And that's why I really can't get behind a purely memorial view of the Lord's Supper, because there's just too much in these passages that we went over that I think that we can't just say that it's just remembering and that's it. God does actually work through the Lord's Supper. So sorry to give that spiel, but that's why I love talking about this, because the Lord's Supper is just such a deep topic and it's really something that we don't really study in this kind of depth as Latter-day Saints.
Yeah. It's been great talking about this, too, because I think when we started this discussion, my viewpoint was that it was just a pure memorial. But then kind of going through the scriptures with you guys and and researching it and everything, I've kind of had my views change on it just in these couple of weeks we've been recording these episodes.
So it's been fantastic. Yeah, that's that's interesting to hear you say that, Michael, because when you mentioned that earlier on when we were kind of at the outset of this discussion, I wondered, you know, do you think do you think that your your view that it's purely memorial is a is a holdover from the way Latter-day Saint teaching handles the Lord's Supper? Unfortunately, yes. I think that my, you know, my natural inclination is to just kind of keep a lot of my old LDS beliefs until I find out otherwise, just because I think I just want to I just like that the idea of kind of being stable and feeling like I have a grasp of things or just at least have a position until I find something better instead of just being like, I don't know anything at all. So, yeah, I have a lot of just positions right now that I think are still holdovers that I'm just they're kind of placeholders, if that makes sense until I kind of get that sorted out and I'm still sorting out a lot of things. No, that's OK.
I wasn't really I wasn't going after you at all. I just I just was curious if you if you made that connection. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, that I remember reading Talmadge's The Great Apostasy and, you know, it's kind of like the truth. The two extremes are presented there, right? It's it's either Roman Catholic trans instantiation or it's purely symbolic and in a room and a remembrance, right, a memorial.
It's a fossil economy. Yeah, I don't remember there being any discussion of there being actual real spiritual presence or anything like that presented to me as an option, you know, for a way to think about it. And and really that that goes for kind of all of the the ordinances within the Latter-day Saint faith. You end up coming kind of coming away with a feel that it's just very transactional, you know. Yeah.
Anyway, just rambling. But, Matthew, I heard you say you're not an iconoclast, but I'm curious if I had a picture of Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi hanging on my wall with the phrase, Jesus loves me this I know because he sliced Darth Maul asunder to and fro. Would you would you come to my house and destroy that? I might ask you to scan it and send me a copy. I don't I don't have it. So don't come to my house and destroy it or steal it. He has it. He just doesn't want you to know that he has it.
Don't have it. There was that poor lady. I think there was an LDS program right for one of their church meetings where they had the Obi-Wan picture on the front.
That was so awesome. Yeah, I don't know. I don't trust anything I see on the Internet. I don't think it's fake.
I hope nobody really did that. But this is not the Jesus you're looking for. That's true.
You need to go home and rethink your life. So what should those struggling or questioning Latter-day Saints know about the blessings promised in baptism and the Lord's Supper or Communion as given in the Bible compared to what they were taught in the LDS Church? So we've talked a little bit about that already.
So maybe just fill in the blanks. Michael, would you like to go first? Yeah, the only other thing I was going to say about this topic is just, you know, there's no covenant, two-way covenant here that pertains to our eternal life like there is in Mormonism. Because in Mormonism, when we're baptized, we promise to bear one another's burdens, to mourn with those that mourn and to keep the commandments. And if we do that, then God will raise us in the first resurrection and we will have eternal life. But in the Bible, it's very different, you know. It says that, you know, the sacrament is there for us to remember the blood and body of Christ. And then in Romans 6, 4, it talks about us, you know, when we are baptized, we may walk in newness of life.
But it's pretty simple and it's just really talking about the freedom that we have and the assurance that we have. I think that's what those two things are really giving us. And sadly, that is just not what we acquire in the Mormon Church.
In fact, it's quite often the opposite. Instead of assurance, I would feel guilt and I would doubt my salvation. So that's definitely a gift that we have in Christianity. So you would say that, to remember that it's a unilateral covenant, that God promises all these blessings and it's not contingent upon our obedience or upon our complete faithfulness?
That it's God working in our lives? That's kind of what you were pointing out at the beginning? Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. No, I just wanted to clarify and make sure I understood. Yeah, you got it. Because in the past when I was talking about that it represents a covenant and then you said, there is no covenant here.
And I'm like, wait a minute. Well, I mean, in the way that a Latter-day Saint uses the specific LDS covenant where it is contingent on what you do to earn it, we don't have that. We should have specified. No, you did later on. It's just at the beginning you said there was the two-way covenant. Yeah, no, I wasn't ready to throw you on the stack of wood and light the fire.
Oh, sure you weren't. How about you, Paul? I would very clearly say at the beginning there is no two-way covenant here. Yeah? Yeah.
In the sense that, yeah, that it requires obedience, right? Right. Yeah, okay.
Okay. So, what would I say here? So, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, right? Matthew 7, 13, 14 says, He says the way is hard and the gate is narrow, right? And Latter-day Saints might say, man, that sounds a lot like our view, right? In fact, a listener recently said to me that I used to think also that Protestants believed that salvation was a free pass to sin, but hearing about sanctification is very similar to our doctrine of discipleship.
It's made you all a lot more relatable. So, what are the differences then? Where do the differences lie?
Maybe an analogy, right? So, 2 Nephi 31 uses Matthew 7, right? And it makes baptism the gate, right?
And let me pull that up real quick so I don't misquote it. It's, you know, repentance and baptism are the gate to the straight and narrow path, right? Eternal life comes to those who keep the commandments after baptism. I know that's the chapter summary. I know that technically LDS would say that's not inspired, but that's what's in there. And that's, you know, kind of what the LDS church is saying to its members. Hey, here's the summary of this chapter. This is what you should get from it, right?
And so, the impression that you come away with, and so I'm going to run with that analogy. The impression that you come away with is that repentance and baptism is the gate to a path that's going to lead you on a journey that could potentially be perilous. You may not be able to be perfect in keeping the commandments from here on out. You can repent, but you better remember to repent because if you don't, those sins may be held against you.
Remember the transactional thing I was talking about last time, or about a few minutes ago. So the opposite view, the Christian view, would be, yeah, you know, being regenerated and justified through faith and then being baptized and partaking of the Lord's Supper. Those are, that's the gate, right? You're entering into that straight way that few find, right? But what's the difference, right? The difference is you are walking through a gate to a house that has your name on it because your name is written in the Book of Life.
You're not going on a long journey that could be perilous. Is it going to be hard? Sure, it's going to be hard. And for that, I'll read, you know, what John MacArthur says about those verses in Matthew chapter 7. He says, And then he comments on the part where Jesus says that difficult is the way.
He says, I think that Latter-day Saints would say, maybe, hey, I agree with what John MacArthur says there, right? It's going to require a willingness to obey his will and his word. The difference is, though, that, you know, like the chapter summary for 2 Nephi 31 says, eternal life only comes to those who keep the commandments after baptism. And if you don't keep them perfectly, you're going to end up in the terrestrial kingdom. And if you really mess up, you're going to end up in the celestial kingdom.
And if you really, really mess up, you're going to end up in outer darkness. And so it's you're not walking through a gate to a home with your name on it. And, you know, you're not walking through the gate to the one of the many mansions that Christ went ahead of you to prepare.
You're walking through a gate to a perilous journey that might not end in eternal life. And I'm not saying anything here that is not within Latter-day Saint doctrine. And it's the reason why people who a lot of people who are in the LDS church lack the assurance that Michael was talking about. But that assurance is there within biblical Christian teaching of the gospel. So for those who are struggling or questioning Latter-day Saints, what they would like to know about the blessings of baptism in the Lord's Supper, everything we've talked about over the last nine hours of this topic, it's really important.
But what I would love for them to hear is there is assurance in Christ. Amen. Man, I'm blown away. I don't even know how to respond to that. No, it's great.
Thank you so much. Yeah, I think that's really the key is that the sacraments are what God promises to us, what he's already given us also. It's just confirming what he's already given us. Whereas with Latter-day Saints being baptized, like you said, it's just the beginning. And then the rest is making sure that you're faithful enough and you're working hard enough and you're doing the following the program, doing the 12 steps, all that. Whereas we see it as we see we see God promising the same promises in the sacraments as he does in the word. I think I should I shared that quote from Babink earlier is that there's nothing that's given in the sacraments that you can't receive through receiving Christ through faith after hearing the word. It's just reconfirming the same things to us and to know that God is in charge of my salvation, not me. That's a real that's a that's an incredible blessing because as either John MacArthur or Vody Baucom that said, you know, if I could lose my salvation, I would.
And I think I think it was John MacArthur. That's true because we're so weak. If it were up to us to keep our salvation, it's impossible. It's the Lord that keeps us. It's the Lord that preserves us. It's the Lord that watches over us, that strengthens us. And so that's really the biggest difference between the LDS sacraments or sorry, the LDS ordinances and Christian sacraments is that LDS ordinances are just more covenants, more obligations, more stuff for you to do versus what God has promised us. What what we are doing and confessing and professing Christ and knowing that we are already saved.
So you did it much more powerfully, Paul and Michael, I really thank you for your words. Is there anything you want to add before you go on the last one? The last one's kind of similar for those post Latter Day Saints who are struggling to understand the biblical doctrines of the sacraments or ordinances or are hesitant to take the plunge, so to speak, into a Christian baptism or partake in Christian communion. What advice would you give them? So we'd like to go first.
Sure. So when I came out of the LDS faith, I jumped right into a Christian church. I think I talked about in my interview episodes that it took us several weeks of Sundays to kind of church hop through the churches in the area and figure out where we wanted to go and eventually land where we landed. I didn't jump right into getting baptized. And the reason why is because I still thought very much like a Latter Day Saint.
Right. I thought, well, even if I don't believe in the legitimacy of the LDS priesthood anymore, I was baptized in the LDS faith with the exact wording of the Great Commission. And, you know, it is when I think about or at the time when I thought about my baptism at age eight, I thought, you know, this is the time that's the time when I believe I began to follow Jesus. But as I continued to attend the Christian church and attend Bible study with good, solid Christian men and heard the gospel preached, I realized that what I had believed before was very different than what I was hearing preached now.
And especially as it relates to the doctrines of grace and as it relates to the nature of God. And so, you know, it took me we left the LDS church in kind of the middle of May of 2010, and I was baptized in August of 2011. So a little over a year to get to the point where I felt like I was I had reached the point where I was like, wow, I really believe a different gospel now.
And I also believe very differently about the nature of God. And so at that point, I thought that it was appropriate to take the plunge, so to speak, and be baptized into Christianity. And Michael, I'm hoping I'm not going to steal your thunder at all, but I'm just going to talk briefly about, you know, when you got to that point, you reached out to me and you asked me, you know, do you think I should be baptized again? And one of the things, as I recall, that you were really kind of questioning at that time was, you know, well, maybe it was more my question as I sought to answer your question of whether you should be baptized again. Because I was kind of musing at the time also about, well, you know, it is the same formula, right, of the Great Commission. So does he really need to be baptized again?
But I, you know, I reached kind of the same conclusion in giving you counsel then that I reached in giving myself counsel. You'd come to believe some very, very different things than what you had been taught as a Latter-day Saint. And so, you know, it's appropriate to be baptized.
But again, it's, you know, these things come after regeneration, these things come after that change of heart that God works within you, which takes you from a place of frustration and rebellion to a place of love. And, you know, to the Latter-day Saint who says, you know, they've come to see that, you know, we don't believe in easy believism, we don't believe in sin all you want. You know, I say, yeah, we don't.
We don't at all. And when you realize that there's that difference, you know, I think, yeah, it's totally appropriate to study through the passages like we've done in these podcast episodes. And ask yourself, you know, have I reached the point where I realize God has been doing a work in my life to bring me and draw me to His Son who went to the cross and took upon Himself my sins and nailed them to the cross past, present and future, such that I'm now standing in a place of faith and a covenant relationship with God that will bring me ultimately into His kingdom. And if you're at that place as a post Latter-day Saint, then it definitely is time to get baptized. And hopefully already before now, you've been in a healthy Christian church where you're being fed and enlivened by the Word of God.
And so if you're at that point, it's time. Amen, brother. That was amazing. That's all I can say. Michael, did you have anything to add to that?
Yeah, just a little bit. I actually didn't even remember having that specific conversation with you, Paul. You never remember having conversations with me. Maybe I just make it all up. It could be, you know, when you're really lonely in life.
No, I'm just kidding. Maybe neither of you are real. Oh man, it's like a beautiful mind that's going on. I'm just talking to my computer screen. It's like he goes back to listen to the podcast and it really is just him. I'm editing.
It's just me talking. For nine hours about the sacraments. I guess I wanted to read a scripture out of Luke 5, starting in verse 36. This is Jesus talking.
He says he told them a parable. No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new and the piece from the new will not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wine skins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled and the skins will be destroyed.
But new wine must be put into fresh wine skins. I think it's really easy to kind of look at your past and look at what the Mormon Church taught about the ordinances. And then kind of feel triggered when it's brought up in Christianity. In fact, my church, they pass communion and they use the white cloth over it. And it's actually very similar in the way it appears to Mormonism.
And the first time I saw that, it triggered me just because it brought back those memories. And I think what we really need to do is kind of wash the board clean, start fresh. Don't try to put new wine into old wine skins. Don't try to make Christianity fit into your Mormon background because it is a totally different thing. And we have to expect that the Mormon Church, being a pseudo-Christian organization, is going to have some things that really do resemble real Christian sacraments. And so we just need to clear that out and look at it with a new mindset. Yeah, I really appreciate what Michael had to say in sharing the passage from Luke 5 about putting new wine into old wine skins. It's a very apt metaphor for the process. Right.
Yeah, I didn't even think of that. That's a great application. I was trying to think of something spiritual and enlightening to add to it, but you both have just knocked it out of the park.
So I'll just leave it with that and say, amen. You can also send us an email at outer brightness at gmail dot com. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Podbean, Spotify and Stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel. And if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist at from water to wine dot work, where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the Outer Brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road.
Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at Adams Road Ministry dot com. Stay bright, Flyer Flies. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and I'm lowly in heart. And you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I am the way and the truth. And if you love me, I'll keep my word.
I'll make my hope in you. No one comes to the Father but through me. There's nothing and no one else to hear. I stand at the door you're hiding behind. Can you hear me?
I'm knocking. Won't you wrap me inside? And you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I am the way and the truth. And if you love me, I'll keep my word.
I'll make my hope in you. I give my life to set you free. And now I live so that you will be alive in me. And you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I am the way and the truth. And if you love me, I'll keep my word. And you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I am the way and the truth. And if you love me, I'll keep my word. I'll make my hope in you. Thank you for watching!
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-12-07 17:56:14 / 2023-12-07 18:19:46 / 24
