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What About Priesthood and Church Structure?, Pt. 3 (Articles of Faith Series)

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The Truth Network Radio
February 14, 2021 12:01 am

What About Priesthood and Church Structure?, Pt. 3 (Articles of Faith Series)

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February 14, 2021 12:01 am

This episode wraps the discussion the sons of light had on priesthood. Here they cover questions around placing oneself under the authority of local church leaders, whether or not they have more confidence without the LDS priesthood, what they would say to a Latter-day Saint who claims that exclusive LDS priesthood authority is necessary for ordinances to be effectual, and finally, they dig into some of the common proof texts Latter-day Saints use to argue for the necessity of their priesthood.

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And as a restored Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints where we go. Your mercy, because of this process.

I will okay so this question to Paul first. How does placing yourself under your churches authority coincide with freedom in Christ.

So I think they should fit perfectly well.

I think because were human.

We struggled a little bit without. I know I do.

The New Testament affirms both that believers have freedom in Christ and world we call Christian liberty and that we are to submit ourselves to shepherds within the flock, and so yeah I SSS, answer them. They should fit perfectly well. I think people struggle with it and I do myself, but I think the main thing to remember with Christianity is that we should be aligned on the essentials right and so some of those secondary or tertiary issues that that we talked about Jeremy Howard when he was on the podcast. Those bills should be left to conscience and the New Testament is fairly clear on Natalie's Paul is fairly clear on that as well. In this passage were Jesus catalyst that extends well so assessed, yet he thoughtfulness the question please. Yes. How does placing yourself under your churches authority coincide with freedom in Christ that freedom in Christ. It's it's talking about merely the obligation of the law of God free in Christ means that he's provided everything we need for life and salvation is in his perfect life and is perfect sacrifice as I think there's freedom there in the sense that we are no longer under Adam's headship under Christ's headship.

We are free from the bondage of guilt and the consequences. But part of that is there's only really two types of servant leader servants to stand in our service to Christ, so that also that with that freedom. We also submit to Christ part of the meeting to Christ is easiest you shepherds to help lead the flock. I think that's part of part of a healthy church environment is having solid biblical pastors that are there to shepherd the sheep into knowing to guide them and we have in Jesus himself gave directions as per church discipline within the body.

If someone offends you go with them privately and if there will not be privately than go at two or more witnesses, and if they will not.

If you know be written so that way then go with the elders so there is still is still accountability and I still a rupee now there's a set of in others there is a hierarchy in terms of how are supposed to behave as a church body is not just, like, anything goes. There is still there, still ordering Christchurch yeah I was thinking about this a lot to and I know that I can see a lot of UX Mormons having a problem with the idea of submitting to the authority of the church needs natural to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater unit as we been deceived wants by a group of men that they claim to be our authority. And so there is a temptation to become a law unto ourselves, our or Lone Ranger, if you will, and I see what happens a lot of next Mormons when they do this and then commit themselves to ministering to the latter-day St. Latter Day Saints and why I think the next Mormons probably as much, as any other group. Have a desperate need to be discipled so you kind of think that the church is given me some valuable insight into race. In particular, both in appreciating and understanding it on-site in a way I thought about my gut but in another sense, we need to admit that were broken you having come out of that religion were kind of stuck running the same old software that we had before and so we need to be immersed into a church, so that we can break that cycle knows that nagging our freedom, no one's forcing us to join a church or even show up on Sunday. There's no threat of outer darkness, but the alternative is pretty bleak. Unified. If I don't put myself under the authority of charge if I don't go there to learn. I'm stifling my own growth and possibly missing the opportunity to be very shine as a trophy of God's grace jump back in there was something when I was prepping for this? I came across an article for those got questions articles in some Christian liberty and account talks about some of things. Matthew touched on, and then it talks about the Christian liberty can also move that Christians are free in respect to activities that are not expressly forbidden in the Bible.

Therefore, one can feel free to engage in such activity as long as it doesn't stumble or offend another Christian. Most of these activities revolve around social do's and don'ts, such as whether or not to wear certain kinds of close makeup, jewelry, tattoos, piercings, and/or practicing certain things such as smoking social drinking, recreational, gambling, dancing or viewing movies or videos and goes on to say that Christians who tend to vigorously promote such liberties can sometimes fall into a loose lifestyle of undisciplined living while on the other hand Christians who tend to vigorously limit such liberty liberties can sometimes fall into a legalistic lifestyle of being defined by what they are against so it's wise to seek God in prayer in his word to determine whether or not a particular activity is actually forbidden in Scripture. I think that's that, those concepts are important for Latter Day Saints here because the three of us, come out of a culture a lot of the same culture that you do tend to focus on some of those extra externalities that are expressly forbidden in Scripture. Either the Bible or or latter-day St. Cannon Ford, I'm thinking. For example, like the tutoring rule that corn deeply instituted and I'm ready to became really legalistic about and made teenage girls cry if they have more than one piercing a merrier in the size of things are are not things that that really should be focused on don't think so. There's I think there's Latter Day Saints listing a riposte Latter Day Saints listening who were concerned about that kind of legalism. Just know that the Christian liberty and freedom in Christ. Does free us from those types of things and if you if you hear a Christian or pastor being too legalistic on things like that know that they know the kind of stepping outside of of what Bible preaching us are thinking like you know maybe you will see a Christian say get freedom in Christ. So you have to go to church. You have to have a pastor psychotic that angle but I think you want to know Lone Ranger Christians rent should be no we need each other too much to do that. So Paul, now you do not believe that you hold as a priest you find that you are more more confident in your daily life or less confident in your deep well some people might say have always been too confident that I was trying to think of you know whether or not my sense of self was tied up with being a priest is older, I don't. I never really identified with the clinical Peter Priester, roll those those folks tended to annoy me.

I kinda had aligned in my thinking more with the holding of dogs or nondirect unrighteous dominion upon others.

Amen to the priest so that mankind of thinking about Kristin and but there's definitely know what I think back, there's a pressure you feel as a priesthood holder in the LDS church try to try to conform to all everything that means the figure taught and told that it means so there were there were times when you know I probably was a little more strident in my insistence that know all is the head of the household of his business as a priesthood holder in the household. I'm the one who calls on someone to pray at dinnertime rather than you know someone volunteering in our or just you know I do not end so I look back on those times nine.

I'm not proud of that attitude now and now hope that my my family for Disney for that but I don't know that I had necessarily boosted confidence. I'm kinda curious like a worthy goal of this question, but I would say that I feel more confident in my seat and my security in Christ that I felt before. Great what you think and give my thoughts knowing that Christ accomplished everything that I need God.

It's not up to me to ensure that time for spiritual work suit. That's that's really cute shoulder some comps more confident in what Christ is done is what I've done, but in terms of the priesthood. More specifically, I think it's my whole world you shift between Latter Day Saints Christian. It was, it always felt like God the father was like a loving father that he was giving us the tools that we need so that we can accomplish what we are tasked as though God gives men the priesthood on earth was the authorities that we could leave the church and give blessings the our families and then at that point it's up to us to use that properly for the property as though with the world is just that you have going that Christianity may strain of thought and reformed theology. There's a lot of focus on God being sovereign God being the one who has authority over everything on earth, and that there's nothing that occurs or exists outside of God's control and so I have less confidence myself and really I abilities are worth the wait, shoulders to do everything myself and off all the crazy things happen that you'll how exactly I don't know if I told you guys, but there is something that happened this week where there is a logistical error in my university or a attendant was good. After a lot of money that I would not count on Ellington so that really is just a controlled select one of the remapping of my clear sign that you hear me now okay I think about that later. Cut out the very beginning I told you earlier before the monologue over some great now since I start telling a story about diversity or is you started telling us about so there was this case a university where my account was not properly having all my tuition reimbursement carried over so I would've had a lot of money that I was not counting on knowing so for saw that I got that kind of that.

My stomach is then and I was thinking to myself okay magic.

Think about this is where the rubber Road you really determine I'm really going to live what I believe really going to practice what I preach is God truly in control of all things, or to be tomato and so it was later found out that he was my account so I thought like nobody's laid at the feet of the Lord and take care of it trustees to make it work out somehow. Even if worse comes to worse than I have to set up a payment plan or something. I figured out it all just oscillated his stress out about it pray for me it would work out and I just Slept on it and you know the next day I called in the morning as soon as I could and when I called you know they said oh yeah, looks like there were two payments one was made last night.

So yeah, looks like you just know this about the not that I predicted that I that I normally would've had to pay so it took itself looked itself know that God took care of it literally overnight while sleeping.

Make it all work out so you know is this kind of discount when it is just that I can think of the past few days work. That's what I copied I just only because more confident that God is good to Me one way or another versus you putting my confidence in myself and how I was good to figure everything out. So I have a dumb Elaine? A lame example but to me is a huge deal.

It really freaked me out at first so it just confirmed that somehow got work things out. I have more confidence in the Lord in myself and in my abilities. Yeah, you sent Matthew because really nothing with the priesthood is that all of the pressure on you so when I was an active member of the church.

I was actually really relieved to have the priesthood, looking back because I wasn't going to some unforeseen thing happens you know what is a family member breaks and arm you always got.

The priesthood is kind of this sound. I guess the trick up my sleeve. You know in case I never backed up against the wall son got nothing to worry about.

Looking back now to see a lot of stress when it came to the priesthood because if I give a blessing and it didn't work or the words didn't come into my head. It's because I wasn't worthy enough, or because I wasn't in tune with the spirit and it's, like the ultimate gas lighting tool you know what I drink too much. Mr. Pam you not just be like oh my gosh, did I just accidentally break the word of wisdom and so I always felt like it wasn't hundred percent worthy to use the priest and so so member this is one time, is working and I locked my keys in my work truck. You know I normally was a pretty bad time to do it and a lot of unity that Danny to get home to go watch my son so my wife can work at the time and so well the only one that's ever tried to resort to something like this but I literally evolved the priest to try to unlock my front door because unlike the priesthood is the same power that God used to create the world and you I just mustered all a that I had inside of my body and when I believe that this is going to work and then I evoked the priesthood and nothing happened so I tried it again more forcefully again nothing happened and it was just really disappointing and I just remember the wheels just turning in my head like well you know it makes sense because in the scheme of things this is a pretty selfish saying that I want and you know why would God want you meet as you want me to use the priesthood to do this all the time you have people getting up in fast and testimony meeting talking about how they prayed and they found their keys and I was kind of hoping to have a an experience like that but it didn't work out, but now I not of the church and surprisingly I just feel so much more confident in my life now because I don't have that pressure that I always had as latter-day St. You know it's it's it's all gone.

God is what is emphasized just him and his will and me trusting in him and I just had a similar or an experience to Matthew where I spend fighting my match life for mom's trying to figure out who's going to watch our son who's going to go to school with them in the situation with us is better because he has his own room and and he's got friends over here and a lot of other things and two weeks ago I decided it was hopeless. You know it was an unwinnable battle and I same thing I I just gave up and I just gave it to the Lord is I can't fight this anymore. It's it's draining me too much to let go and and miraculously she's decided to let him live with us and so without me putting in any effort or doing anything is God's just in the background fighting our battles and to me that is so much more comfort comforting than thinking that he's given me a tool that is up to my faithfulness to make it work like I just have to trust in his faithfulness and and that alone and I know that he that he is faithful to work things in our lives, even if it doesn't look like it at the time, because the time being, you know you had a feeling more confident these days, Paul okay cool you like. So Matthew what you say to latter-day St., who says that priesthood authority is needed to perform saving ordinances like baptism actually just be talking about the issue at authority and yes we start the previous episodes also about the issue of baptism necessary and whether you need a special authority to perform it, but ultimately our salvation is in Christ read passages like Ephesians 1 is in Christ multiple times. All the blessings in Christ and Christ have all the blessings and is not the focus of the Bible is the focus is in the grace through faith.

And so I know we talked also about how some of our Christian brothers like the principal will see baptism as effectual to salvation but I do believe that baptism does have an effect.

It is a means of grace, but I don't think that it's an absolute, but really we just need to look at Scripture and say where they are is the requirements of the state for baptism where we see Jesus specifically saying to the apostles that gives them the priesthood and I think the big issue here is that anytime LDS read the Bible see Jesus giving authority to someone or you know, having laid on her head, associate that with the priesthood. But that's that's not the text. If you just read the text say that Jesus gave the apostles the priest doesn't say that others deacons say that no profits apostles, etc., are priesthood offices.

This is it's it's like you know like a word association game USACE say a word of the assets to provide when you asked to latter-day Saints authority.

The first thing that pops their mind is priest just like like butter and jelly get gassed on think that what is it actually state. Tell me what you been taught to automatically associated with a sense actually read the text and when we go to Hebrews chapter Hebrews, specifically chapter 7, eight others to priesthood priesthood of Aaron the priest's recent event was after you know it didn't have any power to steal anyone up to eternal life. It was it was held by men who are fallible, and died in your place in the priest is held by Jesus because he had the power of an indestructible life.

That's why he had the ability to have that priesthood and so I asked that you have the power of the destructible life because it's not you are not a rightful heir of the priest is Jesus has his priesthood because of who he is because he's got a flesh. That's not something that we have so we aren't entitled to the priesthood because we don't not priest kings like Jesus is not Gothic/fallible men just like the Aaronic priests were and we don't have the erotic priesthood because there is not the tribe of Levi and chapter 8 is know what, what with all things new. The old things fade away or pass away, so the old law can even we can even be difficult priest existing so there's literally no possibility of having any kind of precept in the sense of either erotic answer, but it was on the tip of my mind that my great answer probably got this really good Matthew just a lot of touch on substrata, summarize subpoints, so think about is Matthew saying increases authority there is that there is a place in the New Testament, we can point to where Jesus lays his hands on his disciples the 12 apostles and gives them authority by the laying on of hands in the Gospels, Jesus is said to give 12 authority for specific perfect purpose for this not to baptize book. For example in Luke 91 which says and called the 12 together and give them power and authority over all demons, and secure diseases" and know that there's nothing here about laying on of hands to confer this power and authority to them to know also that later in the chapter. If you look out of the disciples see a man who is not of their own group doing the things that Jesus had given them power to do.

Luke 949 50 says quote John answered master we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to stop them because he does not follow with us but Jesus said to them, do not stop him for the one who is not against you is for you." This suggests several things. First, laying on of hands is not necessary for the power over demons that the 12 been given to Jesus mildly rebukes the 12 view of their own exclusive authority and three either Jesus had another secret group of disciples to whom he had secretly given that power or the power is Matthew pointed out is in Jesus's name rather than in the laying on of hands like I was in a fight, but if you look at the great commission.

Also, nothing is said there Jesus laying his hands on his disciples to confer priesthood authority to them, but they are told to go into all the world and baptized in Luke's account of the appearance of Jesus to the 11. After the resurrection instructs them to wait in Jerusalem until they are clothed with power from on high. This looks forward to the day of Pentecost. And note that Jesus doesn't lay hands on them to confer the gift of the Holy Spirit. Rather, he refers to that future event. When the Holy Spirit will fall upon them so I would ask latter-day Saints to think about this biblical data in chronological order, which is kind of where I started having these questions when I was on my mission stunning through the New Testament in the New Testament student manual with the LDS church had put out the highest to the Gospels, following gospel, harmony, harmonization, and see you looking at the Gospels in a chronological way and I started ask questions right because what we we have is the 11 apostles, who according to LBS hierarchy are given authority to cast out demons while Cornelius Harker hired the 11 would be the highest authority in the church besides Jesus himself and earlier they were given authority to cast out demons and heal the sick within the great commission he signed and gone baptized so.

According to LBS beliefs, healing the sick is a Melchizedek priesthood ordinance is something that one is authorized to do. Only after they have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus commissions his disciples to go into all the earth and make disciples, baptizing them because of the way to Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit comes so there's a problem there for the LBS view is no laying on of hands by Jesus for the gift of the Holy Spirit D11 seem to be like some later disciples who receive it without the laying on of hands that falls upon them and D11 after having received authority to perform the act of casting out demons, which is something only the lock is a Christian elder should be up to be authorized you on the LBS view the New Testament we look at the data is just all out of order for what the LDS church presents as ordered structure and hierarchy of priesthood authority. Yeah that's this is, but I would ask Larry since think about my case I'm talking about anything thing I know is I tend to prefer to just ask really short questions we can get to the point so when Matthew set a little bit will that is inflicted can argue in this weird way words if they can just prove baptism, even if they get the first basic counseling home Ron on of you has noticed this as I go hiking through the baptism is important and that proves that authority is needed to perform that baptism and that baptism actually saves you and then the other ordinances must be true also in just simply not true. You know winning that one point is not when it doesn't come anywhere near winning the entire argument for the church. But the question that I would ask latter-day St. they said that the proper priesthood authority was needed to perform saving ordinances like baptism is where does it say that in the Bible.

I mean seriously where is it ever talk about baptism and priesthood requirements in the same passage. It would be so easy for it to open put in Mark 1616 could've said whoever believes and is baptized by proper authority will be saying but it doesn't ask 238 could've said repent and be baptized by one holding the proper authority, but it doesn't. It would've been convenient. Why did they leave something so important out.

I'll tell you why they left it out.

They left it out for the exact same reason that you believe catch up a recipe for cake because it's not an ingredient. So the short answer that's what I would say to latter-day St. descent that analogy. However, unlike Jesus William Nash born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ-based teaching the name of our podcast brightness reflects John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears and challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around right this question first. First Peter two verses 5 to 9 Peter calls the bodies of believers at Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia holy priesthood and a royal priesthood, does this passage mean that priesthood authority to perform ordinances must exist in the church. How do you understand this passage yet so often passage gay some great okay also I was going to bring this up in accordance that I don't have access to it immediately and almost ready to log in my computer, but so basically I mean it's he's quotes of Peter is quoting Moses to send it, you know, there around 8/2 ago. Again, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, so he sees quoting Moses that's kind of where we look back through history the biblical narrative we see that God is trying to make a dwelling place among his people. We we see that beginning in the garden, God walked with Adam. They spoke with Adam due to their sin are cast out, and so ever since then God has made his going place on the earth in the specific places so like in the tabernacle there was a specific place for God's presence was was made known even before the tabernacle. We had Moses rising to Mount Sinai and visiting God and so his presence was seen in his glorious presence was sitting up there while everyone else was was separated at the bottom of the mountain. But the goal was to have not just you know a specific kind of person serving as priest and prophet know God wanted to make his dwelling place among the entirety of the church body that was the whole goal and so we think when we about the offices of prophet and priest prophet is the one that represents God before the people of God. You know he's piece shares the message of the gospel in the will of God to the people so you can has his back to God and he is pointing towards the people God is immediate as a mediator and we think of a priest. He's kind of the opposite where he stands with his back to the people represented the people and making offerings and sacrifices to God.

You know for two for a propitiation to enough to to try to make amends to make sacrifices for their sins. And so we have is Christ is that we have. He's both prophet and priest. He both represents God makes known the will of God. But he's also representing humanity and that he offers himself as a sacrifice for all humanity. And so, Moses was teaching when he said that your holy nation, a royal priesthood, is he he wanted the entire nation to be partaking in this offering of sacrifices and their will to God. You know, but but that generally have its full fruition until the new covenant church where all of the priests and all the believers in Christ are priests in the sense that we give offerings and praise and worship to God.

And we don't need a priest to represent us to go to God with the sacrifices we can go directly to God with our offerings and our praises. We no longer offer offerings of blood sacrifices and and animals that we offer our worship we offer our praises. Like I said, we offer ourselves as spiritual rocks built into the household of God. And so in that sense, all of the believers combined are all priests in the kingdom of God right thanks all, I don't know how you can add anything to that. You take a shot at it. Really, I don't know that I really have much at all to add to it all. The only thing I would, demonstrations, quote John MacArthur on this passage, he says that this this goes back to what Matthew was saying earlier about the crux of the New Testament being the idea that believers are in Christ, and MacArthur says that Christians are so closely identified and united with Christ that the very life that exists in Christ exists in them. Also, and I would say that know this passage does not does not suggest that there's an exclusive priesthood authority to perform ordinances that has to exist within the church because I under the desires I understand this passage to be part of a letter that is written to as the question notes the bodies of believers and in Pontus in Galatian Cappadocia and Asia yet so does that only include some who were priesthood holders as a clue to include all believers that will be my question to latter-day St., if they really want to dig into this passage in its context. Yeah, I agree think is, often, here about the term that is sometimes used the priesthood of all believers. When you said that is an accurate name for everybody being a priest in the kingdom of God.

Yeah I would think that's accurate. I think this passage that that that concept was kind of based on and developed by Martin Luther. So yes I would say that all believers are are priest priestesses. What is that mean it doesn't mean the same thing that Latter Day Saints mean when they say no. We have elders and high priests and exclusive priesthood authority and kind into that little bit more is to go into some of the other passages will look at the Latter Day Saints will often pull from the New Testament to try to suggest that there are priest authority was part of the New Testament church really have anything else to add stole my thunder on whose audience is because that's exactly what I was going to go with that as well. He specifically says in chapter 1, who is addressing the elect exiles of conscious Galatian Cappadocia, Asia business according to the foreknowledge of God the father in the same dictation of the Holy Spirit never wants to see mention man or those who had hands laid on them or any of these prerequisites that are typically found in the earliest churches just apps points to Latter Day Saints about this passage before the going to latter-day St. exclusive priesthood authority into this passage then you have to assume that Peter was addressing an ancient priesthood session of conference, which wasn't the case. So never really made that connection before but yes. If the walls it's just it's just so unfortunate that they just keep forgetting to specify who they're talking to for future generations so that we don't stay in apostasy just been so easy to just throw the word you man in there and just just doesn't, so it's really an argument.

Silence for the Latter Day Saints and that doesn't hold much weight, okay this one first ball he was terrified. Verse four says, and no one takes this honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God even as Aaron was, what does that mean what the author of Hebrews intended conveyed by this statement is passage about exclusive priesthood authority know when I was in the MTC.

That was where I was taught to apply the scripture in that way right and the supposed assumption is that what is being said here is that Paul numbered you cannot take priesthood authority to yourself because that is something that is only for those who are called of God, as Aaron was, but if you look at the context of the passage. Best not that's not what's being said is not referencing me as the reader is referencing the, the priests of the Old Testament right in Jesus right if you look back verse first one starting responses for every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for since the list kinda spells out what the role of the high priest in ancient Israel was then moving on to verse two. Referring again to the high priest in Israel he can deal gently with immigrants and wayward since he himself is beset with weakness. So it's making the case that because the high priests were human, they would understand the human condition and could sympathize and empathize with the people that they were serving and then moving on the verse three because he is because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those the people author the author of the letter to the Hebrews calls out that the, the high priest of Israel because they were human also had to offer sacrifice for their own sins because they themselves were sinners. And then he goes on makes makes the case and no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God is just as Aaron was that it was an orderly calling of the high priest of Israel and there was only one until a new one was called and needed and then the author turns to talking about Christ and his will for us now in the new covenant says so also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest was appointed by him who said to him you are my son, today I have begotten you. So the whole argument here is about Christ's authority not be authority of any New Testament elder or priest or bishop.

What have you. Yeah so this this passage no is not about exclusive LDS priesthood authority you agree with that.

Yeah yeah all melted. It's interesting because I want to point out that it's I find all book of Hebrews absolutely awesome in Marcy's bowl and said that he said if you're stuck on a desert island or stuck in a prison sonic only in one book of the Bible and behaviors, and I think I would agree with them. Just because the author to the Hebrews just ties everything in Scripture altogether in all the Old Testament sacrifices what purpose they serve and what purpose Christ served in his mediation, his work as the high priest of the new covenant, and so when we see in this passage there is a distinction made between the old high priest and an Christ high priesthood high priesthood siren falling over my words but at the same time. It's also drawing from the Old Testament high priests and showing how Jesus was just like them. In some ways, you know the old high priests were not called of themselves or is not an honor, or glory took upon themselves is not a given to them and same thing with Jesus life he was not calling himself. He was, he was declared to be the son of God by God himself. So that authority was declared and ratified by other heaven and so I just loved the fact that it contrasts but it also compares to how Jesus is as much a high priest all you even more significantly, in a much more superior way high priest than the high priest, the old covenant work so I just love that compare and contrast that the author make the way I am a huge fan of the book of Hebrews honestly believe if there is one book of Scripture that would make a really big impact on Latter Day Saints if they if they were able to read and understand what it's saying, take it slow.

I think the book of Hebrews would make the biggest impact. This is my opinion. After reading through my man find no list are that that Hebrews explains rock my world is a Latter Day Saints Christian. So yeah just like to add to that, he has answered this question really well. I do like how it specifies you know that the former priest were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing in office. Christ told his priesthood permanently because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. I love the ESV version. I love how it says to the uttermost. In other words, what the audience typically say is that you know we needed a cup through an ordinance like baptism in order to be saved, that Christ doesn't does not and cannot save us directly, or you cannot say was to understand that is simply not true because it says) Hebrews receives us to the outer most that means as he saves us completely on there is no need for anybody else to shop state president or even a prophet is not going to be able to step into that void and help us because there is nothing last to bridge the gap Jesus bridges the entire gap by himself, according to keep its alright about Matthew 1818. Does this passage support exclusive Mormon priesthood to perform ordinances and what does it mean in context when you think Paul said no. So the way that Latter Day Saints use this passage of the way they are taught to use this passage is taken out of context and apply to it. Presuppositions that doesn't exist within the text of Matthew so Matthew 1818 says yesterday. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and thus pulled from context and then has the concept of LDS sealing power overlaid onto it as if what is being said that, is that no Jesus's disciples had authority to steal in the way that Latter Day Saints understand stealing and binding. But if you look at what what this verse is in context, is talking about. If you have a disagreement with someone starting in verse 15. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen to one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. He refuses to listen to them tell it to the church and refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So the context is LDS priesthood ordinances that baptism or gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands or endowment ceremony in the temple or marriage ceiling in the temple. None of those are in view here in Matthew once in view is establishing the evidence of the disagreement between you and a brother, and what you were you when you are asked you to try to reconcile without brother make you anything else on that and I think that's exactly the context of saying all melted like I've also read commentaries. I think it was in ESV study Bible, where it talks about how this authority that they have related to this direction towards church membership for church discipline. It can also this authority also extends to the spreading of the gospel in O'Keefe. There's this idea of insight part I is paying attention, but I my brains all the fuzzy self about is if you've Artie set it but in Jewish culturing of this idea of keys just like we see like you have a key to a house or key to your account.

It's it's it's power its authority.

And so this this key and in this terms of ceiling and unsealing and locking and unlocking its related also to this idea of having authority to spread the gospel and you know when when someone what what it says it it's it's in the usher looked at it, but it's in the future perfect I think is the tensor it says what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, so it's like an accomplished reality in the future.

So it's like whatever you bind has already been bound according to heaven, and I think some translations try to translate that such a way to have the same kind of essay, meaning that I future perfect but yet the ideas that the apostles don't have the power to like you not mean in and of themselves to say to someone okay you will have eternal life. You know like I'm giving you eternal life. It's more of like they are. They are given this this authority. These keys that that demonstrates that they understand the will of God he know that they give the gospel in the gospel is what binds and steals people to Christ you know that the message of being sealed to to Jesus as the rock in any goes back to Matthew chapter 16, where Jesus first promised these keys upon the confession of Peter that you know that Jesus is the Christ the son of God and Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church, and so it's this it's the rock of Christ.

It's to him that we have eternal life, and so this this this key this power to sealant bind is related to the gospel message so I was hoping I would be sure, but a dipping longer now that that's kind of what I read from some commentaries relate but it may connect the key with buying ceiling is to the gospel because MacArthur says on Matthew 1619, Jesus Christ duly constituted body of believers acting in accord with God's word has the authority to declare someone is forgiven or not the church's authority is not to determine these things, but to declare the judgment of heaven based on the principles of the word. When churches make such judgments on the basis of God's word, they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words, when, whether they whatever they bind or loose on earth is already bounded or loosed in heaven.

When the church says not be unrepentant person is bound and send the church, saying that God said what God says about the person. When the church acknowledges that the current preventive person has been loosed from that stand. God agrees, yes, I sense your new ride is about the authority of the church, but again neither passage is not out the obvious concept of priesthood ordinances right everything that I wouldn't cover it and then some.

So I'm not even try to answer that question.

Any further on this last question we talked about he was 724 a bit already bent would be interested in your final thoughts on it on if it means to you that Christ doesn't transfer priesthood others and if you need final thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners.

I invite you to do that as well. I'll let you go first on this.

Matthew A lot to make a more seconds to think about membranes all frazzled cool all you got anything you want me to go first on this so you were 724 says that she holds GB in Christ, but he holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever and is contrasting Christ with the former priests as as you mentioned earlier Michael which were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing office to this one succeeded. The others exceeded the other until Christ. So the argument that is often made here by Christians and it's an argument that that was made by by my theology professor when I took seminar on the priesthood of Christ centered Christian University as part of misdemeanor studies, so the argument is that the worst year that's translating yesterday permanently continues forever. I'll probably toss the concept is conveys the meaning of nontransferable busty argument is based. So this is argued from this passage that Christ's priesthood is not something that is transferred to humans and I even made this challenge to our young friend Jackson when he was on Jonathan McClatchey's program apologetics Academy a few years back. I called in and had a chat with them in and asked them to look at this passage and is actually written a blog post now where he digs into them tries to argue against. I'll probably toss meeting nontransferable and know that may be correct. I'm still working do that myself.

I know that there are certain interpreters think James White takes the position that it does me nontransferable.

But what what I would argue that this passage is is that that made that that fine point of what the Greek term means may not be as important as the context of self because what's being said here if you if you zoom out instead of zooming in on that one term. If you zoom out and look at what's being said here is, as Michael so eloquently mentioned earlier is that Jesus is not like those former priests. He holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever.

And like you said Michael, she's able to save to the uttermost.

So what what other role is needed and if you go elsewhere. There's one mediator between man and God, Christ Jesus, so one other mediator is needed so agree with your point about the book of Hebrews, Michael, and that's that's all I would really say about 724 yeah just thrown a quick disclaimer when Paul says in a sentiment eloquently because I was quoted keep thinking about our stuff you hear me start talking and ice just sounded way more educated and eloquent because the Bible is your commentary on the term uttermost actually got yes I agree with you Paul. The big thing is that there was no additional need for God to transfer his authority to man. You talked about, but as study looking at this passage is that it is inconsistent for him to do's. If Christ was the type of person to delegate authority and have always do things on his behalf and he would've sent a worthy priesthood holder to die for us on the cross, but instead he went and he died for us personally and now he saves us first so he is the kind of person to do things for us while I was the big thing that stuck out to me looking at this verse I don't really have anything else to add you good now. Matthew and I think I'm gonna pass it off to my car to fall because he is a really struggling to put all the words my mind and I kind of is the study. The great connection was listing to Dr. I talk about this. Trying to figure how I can regurgitate what he said on it about it much better than I could have so yeah I agree completely. I think like you said even if you want to argue or that single word. I agree with Paul that I want with both you that doesn't that's that's not the only night it doesn't. That's not the point upon which this idea rests entirely. Whether that word is transited one way or the other is the entire context of the book of Hebrews is the insufficiency of the Old Testament priesthood and the complete sufficiency of Christ's work and his men were better wrap this one gentleman and get ready for our next episode were going to have some guests on so thank you for this of the out of love to hear from please visit the out of rightness.

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