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March 21, 2021 12:01 am
In this episode the sons of light discuss the Gifts of the Spirit. They kick off by sharing their experiences as Mormons, the continuationist position that the LDS Church takes, and they begin to discuss the biblical data regarding spiritual gifts.
Is stored church. The Latter Day Saints where we go.
Your mercy, because of this process. I will send you this article of faith states we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues and so forth. When I was a Mormon statement.
Obviously some inherent contradiction paradox in my mind.
On one hand only.
History claims are based on the concept of continuing prophecy and revelation. The LDS church is led by 15 men who are set apart and sustained by the membership as profit steers and regulators just Smith's career as a prophet began with a claim division of the father and the son and throughout his time leading the movement many more visions were claimed by him and his followers truly is claimed by Latter Day Saints that theirs is a religion aligned with the spiritual gifts enumerated in the New Testament they see this as evidence of the truth of their movement. I grew up in a home, revisions and personal revelation were not considered to be uncommon.
The challenge that this post to my mind and my teenage years and beyond was the sum of the visions/revelations experienced by some of my family members led to heartache and sorrow for other family members Latter Day Saints are taught that the father holds authority to receive revelation on behalf of his family. What recourse to other members of that family have to test the spirits as a Mormon, I would've said that just as it is the responsibility of Latter Day Saints to confirm the words of their leaders through prayer, so is the responsibility of family members to confirm the words of the parents prepare the challenge comes when the supposed revelation contradicts Scripture. Where is even touched on in Scripture was a person to do severe challenges to family structures and relationships arise when Latter Day Saints receives what they believe is personal revelation that they should take additional wives. This is not uncommon and it leads to pain as others. This is not uncommon and leads to pain as can other less stark examples.
In theory, the LDS canon is the rule of faith and the Prophet and apostles are to provide clarification of portions of LBS Scripture that are unclear, at least that is what one listener wrote to us. After listening to episodes 44 and 46 in which we reviewed Matthew's article, the Mormon chameleon that downplays their role as steers and regulators you revelation a new Scripture has been very minimal since the days of Joseph Smith despite claims the continuing revelation and an open Canon are strengths of the LDS movement.
We talked about healing our episodes 51 to 53 about priesthood effective the seventh of this article of faith includes feeling as a gift of the Spirit, alongside others leads one to wonder if the LDS priesthood bestows the right to give healing blessings. Does that mean they'll be every LBS mail holding the Keswick priesthood has been given the gift of healing.
What about the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues speaking in tongues were glossolalia was an important part of early Latter Day Saints practice Mormon prophet Brigham Young stated or sorry Brigham Young regarding speaking in tongues is spiritually electrifying experience. An important part of his conversion, the practice continued throughout the 19th century but was not a part of Mormon practice at all during my lifetime.
Early Mormons wrote of great spiritual outpourings taking place during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in March 1836, speaking in tongues was said to be part of this great outpouring of the Spirit when I was growing up in the LDS church. These manifestations of the spirit were spoken of anytime a lesson plan included discussion of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.
We hear them.
We heard them often.
They were evidence that God was at work in the Latter Day Saints movement but precarious teenagers in my class would often asked the natural question why does no one speak in tongues today. The answer given was usually an allusion to the idea that missionaries who learn foreign languages certainly enjoy the gift of tongues. But that is neither glossolalia miraculously speaking in a language unknown to anyone, nor is it seen a glossier miraculously speaking in a language unknown to oneself, but Mark but known to one's hearers somewhere that is the paradox that existed in my mind with regard to the seventh article of faith. Mormons claim that their continuation is the belief in the gifts of the Spirit is proof that Mormonism is true.
Over against Christians, many of whom are secessionists, that is, they believe that the miraculous or sign gifts of the spirit have ceased that they were meant to be powerful signs in the apostolic era of the church as it was growing but are not needed today so the paradox is this.
Despite Mormon claims that all of the gifts continue. None of the gaps are present in the modern LDS church in any meaningful way and when pressed, Mormons often give arguments akin to the Christians to station us counterparts. The gifts of the spirit that's were talking about today.
Let's jump right in here with time at the gifts of the spirit. When you were when you are Latter Day Saints. What was your experience with the gist of the spirit we encouraged to seek to know how you were gifted were you ever discouraged Matthew's study.
First, anything were always talking about everyone he has gifts and people are gifted to do one thing or another and I've always been a perfectionist and never really had a high view of myself. I guess I didn't really have very great self-confidence. I kinda figured I downplayed a lot of my skills are let my gifts and so I'd I really think much. I thought I look at this case are smarter to show my mission.
Look at how well they speak French is so amazing you know God's really working in them and in so I was worried about falling enterprise. I didn't really want to focus too much on what gifts I had or would God give Scott a give me given me and I guess it's still something I struggle with sometimes still but Diane was, it wasn't something I was really focused on trying to attain or to growing gifts you meant Michael yeah got a couple of thoughts on this. I would know that I was very new about the spiritual gifts and that they were to be coveted out of anybody ever told me specifically to go looking for the gifts I just can't assume that that was something that I would come to you at some point and really when I went on my mission. I started to to have some of those experiences that kinda brought some of them to light, but before that, I think I really believed in the gifts more, but as a theoretical being like yeah like they're there. They're not really big practice is you don't see it very much and LDS Ward like people getting up and sing almost brother so-and-so has the gift of healing if if you need a priesthood blessing go to him specifically and you'll get your get healed. I care more believe that in certain circumstances, God would gift you with what was needed and if I did give an example of that.
I would say that missionaries in the MTC learning a foreign language would often hear people say I go like they're having the gift of tongues and that is what's helping them to learn this new language for me personally if I went to the MTC. I had this experience right prayed and asked God to teach man speak is really awkward around people holy conversation saved my life and I felt like God answered that I was able to to speak really well and I would come back from my mission, I would give tocsin view. That is my spiritual gifting and I would always take it really seriously, somebody asked me to speak. I would, I would pray and ask God to humble me like a week before, and I have went the worst week ever and land. I would pretty much write up my whole Todd memorized the whole thing and given without any notes and it was pretty much accepted in my ward that I had a gift for public speaking and then I had some really potent dreams that I viewed as visions so those were kind of the spiritual gifts that I would've said that I thought I had as a latter-day St., what about callings were extended to you as a latter-day St. word. The gist of the spirit. In particular, your gifts ever a part of that conversation. Yeah right when he said I mean a lot of times it just felt like it was what was needed in the warden and I was just a body. I think sometimes depending on what my calling was, it wasn't until he started to trust me enough to give me some more major callings. For example, when I became the ward mission leader. I started to think maybe I've got a spiritual gift for preaching the gospel and I just didn't know that I had that gift. And thank goodness that I got this calling to show me a spiritual gift that I didn't know I had.
But then I would get a calling. I was just teaching the nursery and I go obviously on. I'm not very good with with kids so this must be here because I don't have lacking any sort of spiritual gift.
Otherwise, they would've put me in a better callings so there is never like a point where the bishop would sit down with me and say what you think your gifting is so that we can decide what your callings intermediate was always just they came to me.
We are calling you to do this without any foreknowledge of Wyatt's. I was good at or not that makes sense. Yeah, it was never we never had conversations in terms of callings within the mission before or after going on a mission regarding gifts that I had and why that would make me suitable for such a calling, but I think they did speak occasionally about how God would grant you the gifts without calling something with the calling. And with every those who LDS who don't know it's not just when you are baptizing have hands laid on your head and confirmed you your Saturday call to setting apart when years. We are called to any calling within the LDS church, even if it's as mundane as being like an usher. I think they still did a lived profit so that they play hands on you a priesthood leader.
Usually the bishop lays hands on you and give you a blessing saying that blessing usually something to the effect of God will grant you the ability to fulfill the tasks of this calling something like that and so that so that's usually what the extent of the conversation was it was about non-not so much already having those yes but God will give you what you need to accomplish is called dad.
I like why would the limited extent a calling to you the more the sky like get an appointment from the executive secretary in the bishop and Joanne's down the office prayer and then you brother Nürnberg. We are going to extend your calling to be XZ and weighed out. There wasn't really a whole lot of conversation around that. I do remember having lessons about the gifts of the spirit was kind of like once a year, less than the came around his mother covered in the New Testament that covered in the book of Mormon.
The cover in the document, covenants, and so whatever year you were studying your except maybe the Old Testament you're going to have a lesson on the gifts of the spirit.
It was Matthew recently interesting and I kind of forgotten that that aspect of it that was kind of assumed that whatever calling. We give you.
You know God will gift you and and empower you for that that particular calling and I remember there being.
I was pretty fortunate. Like a lot of the callings I held were teaching callings, which is something that I do think this is one of my gifting's and so I always felt comfortable doing those serving in those callings within the LDS church that I do remember there were people who would you begin to be called in to do something and then it is not something that they were comfortable with it all and they really struggled with that. So yeah, I'm not being a big conversation going that people would feel that they have particular gifting but they dated never to callings that were around my gifting, so it seems like nobody was ever in the calling that they wanted to be in me like that happened to me in my first wife Neil were brand-new newlyweds and they threw us in the nursery in this war that just had a time of two-year-olds and some just like all my gosh, what are we going to do and it was insanity every single week. There is this one kid had come a speech impediment and I remember one time I went to go use the restroom I came back and he can crawled halfway through the back of one of the chairs in the in the room and he kept looking at everybody and saying Doc Doc, and the like. Yes, docs quiet, and I came in and he looked at me and he said.yes Doc so hey I guess I guess the gifts the interpretation of tongues. I guess that's what I've got so maybe it's like you were there, is what would happen if the remaining dock the whole time, they would've asked his parents like Izzy obsessed with doctors so the LDS church really context continuation's position with regards to the gifts. Did you think that that position was a benefit or detriment.
When you were a latter-day St. was at did you consider to be strong evidence that the LDS church was true in all others false Matthew we think there is a passage in the book of Mormon is actually quoted and I should've brought this up earlier gets Enron I seven talks about everyone who denies Revelation denies spirit goodness. I live a current student manual allow. I want the book of Mormon should about the subject has yeah I think it's in chapter 7 okay okay yeah so what that Camry so Enron I chapter 7 are on a Pegasus warning was its Mormon stocking pay when they switch back and forth in those books, running oh no it's morning and switches back to Mormon. Why think I do this to me is when it's his number one I read a few words my father Mormon now okay and so Mormon here supposedly is talking about miracles being performed. In verse 33 says and run a seven.
If you have faith in me shot power to do what. So everything is expedient in and he has said repent all the ends of the earth and comments maybe baptize my name. Have faith in me and now my blood brother and if this be the case of these things are true, which I spoke to Nancy and God will show it to you with power and great glory. The last day that they are true and if they are true has a day of miracle ceased or have angels ceased to appear in the children unto the children of men, or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them, or will he so long as time to last or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved. The old Asante name for it is by faith that miracles are wrought is by faith. Angels appear in ministering to men, but for the things of ceased will be into the children of men for is because of unbelief and always pain or no man can be saved according to the words of Christ say they shot faith in his name. Square for if these things of ceased and has faith ceased. Also awful is a state of man there as though there had been no redemption. So that's the end of that. That's verse 30. I just read so I saw that is kind of saying that yeah if you're denying that God can do miracles today. If you're denying that tongues can work today that feelings can work today that we don't have the power to like them, which we don't have the priesthood power like Peter and the apostles had to kill people, then they basically don't have faith in other faith is lacking and in us as well unto the children of men. And in that passage.
So I started to really answer the question.
Go back to see asked if if it was a benefit or detriment want the time I thought it was a benefit because it was evidence that ours was the true faith because the true faith would have these gifts and the true faith would also have prophets and apostles see it was kind of a package deal. You have already don't have any of it and I did think it was strong evidence that the district chair and those that denied it, were automatically like I could just cross them off my list of possible true churches is just not even a possibility. As far as Mormon 915 to 20. I think it has a similar message right Mormon 915 and now, all ye that have imagined ventures of the God who can do no miracles would ask if you have all these things past of which have spoken as income you build Asante man. God is not ceased to be a God of miracles is made sense to me to a cycle of God the same. Why doesn't God do today what he did in the past and that's a very standard kind of argument for missionaries. So sorry for my long response but yet to me it was just basically if you're going to be the true church. You need to have all the same things that the churches had since the beginning, since the book of acts did you ever follow up on my did you ever reach a point where the so you mentioned in the info that you early on in the latter-day St. movement.
Those some of the spiritual guests were very primal, prevalent, and even up through the end of the 19th century independent kind of fell off did not ever ever bother you or raise questions in your mind like life. Why was there speaking in tongues at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and nothing like that happens today. Yes I did think about that and I kind of thought of it. I thought it was like supposed to emulate the day of Pentecost you know and so I don't maybe the time I thought the day of Pentecost was the only time when they were speaking all kinds of crazy tongues and then after that they had the way that we saw. Then tongues you know in terms of being able to learn a language more quickly. Being able to understand Ellingwood or quickly.
Maybe that's how I rationalized in a much richer but yet it I don't think it was until much later that I understood the history behind the changing gifts of the spirit any of this church thing was it wasn't until like late 19th century. When I got change or will I forget what time. What Michael will love you. Did you see the continuation continuation disposition of illness. Churches benefit strength. Yeah, I deftly thought that it was a benefit as well. In fact, you'll see a lot of LDS people online these days without her.
Throughout that claim a show me a showing a church right now that has a profit and priesthood keys and miracles, and I will join that church and they say that because they are so confident that there is no other church out there like that so like Matthew. I would look at the church. Announcing this makes it authentic that makes this the true Christian church because were the only ones claiming to have miracles and every guest and I see a lot of these other Christians you know making what I thought were excuses all will. It was just for while the apostles were around and we don't need it anymore. I would just be like, will of course they have to make excuses because they don't have the guest of the spirit. You know what are you left with if you don't have the gift of the spirit excuses you know it must be so sad to be a Protestant and have to sit there in CS Latter Day Saints being all awesome having gifts of the spirit and man. No wonder there still anti-because all they can do is just be mad man I wish I was in no yes maybe also yeah sorry those were the days out. Yeah so I think I think I did you continuation us position that the LDS church takes is a strength. I do have questions about no because it wasn't just the continuation of like the miraculous gifts write the prophecy and revelation that were claimed for the prophets and apostles, but it was also we would have lessons where he reported to these miraculous spiritual expenses happened at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and other other events in Mormon history raise questions in my mind why that when we experience speaking in tongues now. When I went on my mission talk about this in the prior possible and allow my mission and and was able to learn Hungarian which is one of the more challenging languages in the world and I tried to study German in high school.
Never could never could get it to stick so I viewed the fact that I was able to learn Hungarian as a as manifestation of the gift of tongues. When I was a missionary man up and I was you know by leadership encouraged encouraged to view it that way is not raise questions in my mind about what is this, is that is really what the gift of tongues is very access. Not was going on at the Kirtland Temple so there is another thing I want to say about the gift of timeless oh yeah, there was a missionary that I served with Yahoo had gone with some missionaries before he was had gone out on his mission. Almost missionaries to a charismatic church. They were on was spinning some time with missionaries and they were meeting with somebody who was charismatic and they were invited to the meeting so he went along with them and number him telling me that he was. He just sounded so absurd because he said that the baby watch the video that was kind of like instructional on how to how to get into the space of speaking in tongues and he thought that was kinda ludicrous that they would be instructing people on how to how to speak gibberish basically was the way he put it, sounds interesting.
Was interesting to see that Latter Day Saints, although they were some letters and so that we were claiming to be continuation us were kinda making fun of others who are also continued claiming to be continuation us so that the risk questions in my mind into the New Testament Canon biblical data on the on the spiritual gifts.
The most common word used in the New Testament refer to the spiritual guests charisma. What would you think that conveys Michael well I looked it up the gift for the benefit of the church. That's when I found online.
At least I didn't see a lot of information on it.
Seriously, what what it was about the? Prompted you to ask and I guess it is or can you specify more about that kind of thinking you know the way we use the word charisma and English seems to be somewhat dislocated from the way that its use in the New Testament.
Somebody has charisma is you do your drawn to them.
Nobody doesn't really have a connection to the Holy Spirit. So just on the counter to set out a little bit.
I see you saying yeah it is interesting because I didn't even realize that was the Greek word until I was looking at this episode guide I heard charismatic in the theological stance and it is interesting that in English. It is such a different a different thing because scripturally speaking, charisma is all about using your gifts to benefit other people, but in English it's kind of the opposite is an we have charisma. It's all about drawing people to you.
It is about you and not the body of the church. So that's a really good insight you brought up their writing about that. So when I came out of is transitioning out of this church into Christianity, and I study this issue that's that's can where I learned this term. The charisma iron was referring to spiritual gifts, but it's interesting to see to you that it's sometimes referred to in the New Testament as specifically the gifts of the spirit or just gifts in general or or are you know a gift from God. I think one example I pulled up was Romans 623 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God. If there's is hut height cut a small if you want to do modern Greek pronunciation. Had I been practicing or cutting hours charisma thing is how you would say it right there asked me tight. Yeah so that's that's so that's in that instance gift is is charisma so it could be referring to that. But yeah, in terms of the spiritual gifts that that's usually where that's being used more specifically, I think.
Romans 111 check yeah I think it's Romans 111 of the parallel there this furlong to cease. I am in part you some spiritual gift to strengthen you torture this document the gifts of the spirit, Dino Paul Hannah should a study that passage in detail but which has what Romans chapter 1 verse 11 Paul saying for a long to cease that I'm may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you. That is that you and I maybe speak mutually encouraged by each other's faith. So much of that's really dumb. I guess the spirit seems more like encouragement and yeah so geology professor touches on the that nobody says the complete phrase spiritual gift occurs only once in the New Testament in Romans 111 repulses the Christians in Rome for a long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift carries demotic on to you, something Paul here is referring to is apostolic ability to bestow miraculous gifts such as prophecy or tongue speaking as in acts 19 six but my conclusion is that the gift Paul wanted to bestow upon the Romans was the deeper meaning of the gospel refers to Romans 115 first Thessalonians 289 perspectives nine through 11 says this being the case, the fact that the full phrase spiritual gifts is never used in the New Testament, in the sense in which it is commonly understood today. My theology professor would conclude this not dishonest. I was speaking of the spiritual gifts there in Romans one eleven Great, should've looked at a show elected like the lexicons that I have accordance now and are likely to look up that I didn't yes I like him and that's where we can get the English word charismatic, you know, when retired by charismatic Christians.
Of course it comes from studies that is not how he's not so that's without comes from but but also in a more colloquial sense we think of someone who's charismatic is when who's going one who has the ability to convince others. So I think that's kind of where that comes from but they're not really totally related incidental talk by charismatic leaders and people think all you electronic or whoever in a hurry unappointed when were talking the religious sense. We talked about someone who has enough certain gifts spirit so much of that's kind approaches, we are hoping for in this question, or if I'm kinda just going around it though. Yeah that's that's good to things like I wanted to tease out was one.
The difference between the way charisma is understood in English and the way we use at Michael really kinda put that to really understandable claim language the way he phrased as so everything I wanted to come to tease out is that this this word charisma is is related to the word car race which is the Greek word that we get grace from right so in English is interesting what Cottrell says about that as well.
He says now most commonly used for this concept is charisma, which is related to Kari's common word for grace. The basic meaning of Kari's grace as such is quote a gift that pleases or brings joy" and it can be used for gifts other than saving grace. In fact, Kari's itself is used a few times to refer to the equipping gifts of the spirit.
For example, the apostle Peter refers to the whole package of spiritual gifts is the manifold grace Kari's of God. See first Peter 410. Romans 12 six Ephesians 47 charisma, though, is the word most commonly used for spiritual abuse in general. Since is etymologically related to Kari's are word for grace when you try to read the concept of grace into charisma. Also, the speaker spiritual gifts as grace gifts and think of them as the result of grace all the connotations of grace are then run into them. For example, gifts are not only spiritual but also undeserved grace gifts bestowed a conversion. Cottrell says we should be. We should beware of circular reasoning here. The main point is that charisma like Kari's itself basically means a gift so he's trying to tease out the fact that the these design a steroid type to conversion tied to the Holy Spirit yeah why not to that. I looked in Lewin night and that's what they basically said is that derivative director of Patti's and Heidi's mouth are derivatives studies highlight them to give graciously and generously I think I'm getting too much of a sound to the Kia that's what I've heard of the modern Greek is pronounced them. But I don't know the modern Greek and I probably don't have the rest of the wrestling pronunciation down so so global you on this nexus of certain passages scriptures to indicate that the father participates in the bestowal of spiritual gifts. Romans 12 three. For example, first Corinthians 12 five and first Peter 411 and likewise the son in first Corinthians 12 five Ephesians 472 11 so which person of the Trinity is the giver of spiritual gifts is a test question is has only go to the spirit for 400. What is the Holy Spirit that your final answer yes we should phone a friend that is a case in many call Brett & quick one stacking here two hours earlier over there. What time would that be 1030 and 2399 23. Why are you calling me your calling me for great message me. I don't know this question, I think, well, I think all of the when we read prescriptions 12 versus 711 really focuses on the spirit is the one that's the one that's giving you these gifts, but there are all for the purpose of glorifying God. And there's various passages that talk about how every gift from heaven knows bestowed upon us by God in all weather it's the father are speaking of Christ. So I think I think we can't really we carefully segregate the persons of the Trinity when it comes to spiritual gifts in terms of their purpose and their use. The minutes for the body of Christ because were in Christ Jesus edify each other and strengthen each other and so can't completely divorce the spirit from the sign on father so it's it's kind of all with the working of God in us, but I think that's one of the more particular functions of the spirit is the gifts of spirit that I think that's right; you don't need a phone a friend.
I think you did good to go to the spirit is definitely that's one of the roles of the spirit was to be the bestower of of the spiritual gifts. But I thought I thought that the point is interesting that there are passages that indicate that the kind of all three members of the Trinity are involved in this and it's is it's just interesting to take note of that and that's the not that that's true of our salvation as well know that that the three members of the Trinity are fully involved in various ways and have various roles in our salvation, but they are, they do have some separation of duties so to really quickly to that I've seen since coming to Christ and bring in the Trinity, you see that everywhere nice eating creation the creation as a Trinitarian act. Know the father and I attribute the fathers being the creator and it's through Jesus that all things are created, but we also see the Spirit hovering over the waters we see the Trinity work there. We also see the Trinity and the resurrection. Talk about you know the spirit of God raised him up, raised Jesus up. But Jesus also said you know I lay down my life and I take it up again but it also talks about the father raising Jesus to life. So we see the Trinity working in all of these supernatural acts of its creation, or the new creation in Jesus and also in operation of the spirit spiritual gifts. I just want to point out that sometimes is Latter Day Saints. I was always figure out THE father speaking is assessments on speaking know which one is it enough to differentiate it. Where is like you know it's all just God working in unity United divine will our fireflies.
That's a wrap on part one of what about the gifts of the spirit to the next week or two into this of the outer, please visit the out of right and feel free to send us a message that send a message at the time the pain appreciated the July we also have an out of right is also sent this is on hear from you soon can subscribe to the other brightness podcast on Cass box cast the modifying stitcher. Also you can check on YouTube channel. If you like it shortly grade also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland will music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page.
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