Sharing the Good News with LDS Missionaries w/ Sarah Bateman

Outer brightness from Mormon. Two G's. And some of you, the only thing you've ever seen of Christianity is a dead religion. But I serve a living God. who has sent us a living Savior.

I'm not going to stay here. says one. I don't believe this is the ship Zion. Off goes the coat. and he jumps overboard.

Will he not be drowned? Yes.

So with those who leave this church, For that which is born of the flesh is flesh. And that which is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, You must be born again. Trusting God. Christ.

She is such a savior. He's mighty to save. Don't let anything stand before you. Between you and coming To know him. If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints.

Where will you go? What will you do? Did I born myself again? No. He made me alive.

Yeah. Christ. Listen. I can no more manufacture the second birth than I manufactured the first one. Hey, Fireflies, welcome back to Outer Brightness from Mormon to Jesus.

We have with us today a special guest, Sarah Bateman. She's a listener who had reached out to us via our Facebook page to introduce herself, to thank us for the podcast, and to tell us a little bit about her story of how she got involved with witnessing to Latter-day Saint missionaries, she and her parents. And so I thought it would be great to have her on. She has some questions that she's going to pose to us. Tonight, and she's also has some observations that she shared with us that I think will be helpful for our listeners who are looking to kind of get their feet wet in understanding how to effectively witness to Latter-day Saints.

So, Sarah, welcome to Outer Brightness. Thank you guys so much. It's super exciting to. Listen to a podcast, and then before you know it, you're talking on it.

So, this is my first. Podcast experience.

So I I'm just, I'm here for it. I'm ready to. Talk with you guys, and it's super nice to meet you for sure. Awesome. Likewise.

Nice to meet you too.

So, Sarah, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, your Christian upbringing, and then like how you got into kind of thrust into witnessing to Latter-day Saint missionaries? Yeah, for sure.

So, I am here in the Southeast and I've grown up down here. My dad is a pastor, and he's actually been a pastor since before I was born.

So, he we were in a Baptist church when I was growing up, and then after a while, we planted a non-denominational church.

So, yeah, wonderful family. I have a really, really amazing family, and I love them a lot. My parents raised me with just the Bible and really strong values and really raised me very well.

So, um, I'm really grateful to have had that upbringing and to have a pretty strong Bible knowledge base to kind of share with other people.

So, I chose to trust in Jesus when I was probably about five. And, you know, it's a whole process. You know, when you're five years old, you don't really know much. But when I was in college, my relationship with God really got a lot deeper. I, um, in high school, I feel like my relationship with God was kind of just an outward appearance type thing.

Like, I had one, but it was more like, you know, because everybody thinks I'm this good Christian pastor, pastor's kid, and like, I'm A-OK. And so, when I was in college, it really got a lot deeper. And I learned to have a stronger relationship with God that was like a real relationship and not just an outward appearance thing.

So, jump to 2022. I was actually in Walmart doing my grocery shopping, and I came around the corner down this aisle, and I saw these three Mormon missionaries. And I'm not going to lie, at first I did not know if they were Mormons or Jehovah's Witness. Like, I am not that, you know, I didn't know. I was just like, well, I know they're one of these two groups, but I'm not super sure.

So as soon as I saw them, I was like, these guys are going to be my friends. I have a feeling that they're going to be friends with me. And so I just went up and started a conversation with them. And they're super, super fun guys. I mean, I was there looking for some gluten-free cornmeal, and one of them was just like digging through all the cornmeal trying to find gluten-free for me.

And we just had a really fun conversation there standing in Walmart. I ended up telling them. Or I had an idea. I was like, okay, if you guys come and visit my church, then I'll come and visit your church. And they said, oh, yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

We definitely want to do that. That sounds awesome.

So we planned to do it the week following to do the church swap. And that week, I was like, I got to get prepared. I got to learn what I'm talking about here because I don't know anything about LDS doctrine at all.

So my dog luckily had a book, which was written by one of his seminary professors. Have y'all heard of How Wide the Divide? Yeah, it's one of the books that I've read. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's really cool because. It's written by a as you know, as by an LDS guy and an evangelical, and they're just really in conversation with each other.

So I thought it was really cool.

So I read that book start to finish that week, trying to get prepared and felt kind of ready.

So that Sunday, they came over to my church, and it's a I have a really cool church. It's not a denominational Calvary Chapel Church. And so they came and experienced that. And then after that, I went across the street and went to their church. And that was a really, really crazy experience for me.

I didn't know what to expect, of course. And I was a little bit shocked at what was talked about. I was just eating it all up. Like, what are they going to say? I'm listening to every word.

What are they going to talk about? And so. I was there for probably like two and a half hours between Sunday school and sacrament, and they. Talked about, like, don't sin, sin is bad. Don't listen to Satan, like, listen to God, you know, do good things, don't sin.

That was the whole thing for like two and a half hours. That was the whole message. And I was just like, man, wow. I, from being from an evangelical background, I never have heard a church service like that. That was just all about.

Notes, and there was nothing about grace, or you know, what happens when you fail. There was nothing like that put into it.

So it was um, it It was a really new experience for me for sure. And then afterwards, I asked them if they would come and get some tacos with me, and they said yes.

So we went down the street and got some tacos, and we talked for probably two plus hours about the gospel. It was a really, really fun conversation. And they, you know, they said, which is probably part of their training, but they said, you know, tell us about your faith. And I said, yes, I would love to do that. Thanks for asking.

I start going into the gospel and the, you know, the true gospel, and it was such a cool experience. Because after I kind of explained what it means to be saved by grace through faith and that kind of stuff, one of them said, You know, I always knew that evangelicals believed in salvation by grace through faith, but I never knew what that meant. And I was like, Man, what a cool thing! Like, what an honor it is to be able to be the first one to tell you. I'm like, wow, that is huge.

That is such a cool thing to be the first one to tell you what that means. Another thing that came up during that conversation, actually, this was the first thing. Yeah. I asked them if they had any questions about evangelical faith. And they said, well, do you think we're going to hell?

And I was like, ooh, that's a big question to start off with there. But I told them, in all honesty, I told them, I have no idea about that because I don't know what it is you're trusting for your salvation.

So I can't even, I have no idea. And I think that was really good because I didn't want to start off on, like, a, well, yes, I do. You're going straight to hell. Like, that's not really the right foot to start off with when you're trying to witness to people.

So I was really glad that I really felt like the Lord was speaking through me that day. And it was just, it was a really exciting day to be able to talk with them. Part of what made it so Amazing was that two of these guys were super open to, I could just sense it. Like, I could sense that they were ready to listen to what I was sharing. And they weren't just, you know, spouting off the answers that they've been given to say.

They really were asking good questions and really into it and really interested in it. They said, We're so glad that you're telling us about evangelical faith because here we are in the Bible belt and nobody's ever told us any of this stuff. And so, here we are trying to share the Mormon gospel with all these people, and we have no idea what they believe, really. Like, we're it's it's new to us.

So, they said, We want to learn more about this. Do you think your dad would be willing to have a conversation with us? And I was like, Oh, yes, he would love to do that.

So, we planned a week later to have them come over to my parents' house, and we all had dinner together and went super deep into Ephesians 2 for like two hours. And again, they were just asking question after question: What do you think this verse means? And what do you think that verse means? And help us understand this, help us understand that. And we were like, Man, this is great.

Like, how often do you share the gospel with somebody? And they're just like asking all these great questions. Like, normally they're just going to be like, Well, I don't believe in God, you know, like it's just it was. Fun. It was really a fun conversation.

And my parents and I were just like launched into this whole project. Project is the wrong word, but we've been launched into this really cool ministry with these people. And so far, I've met over 10 of them because transfers happen and moving around and all this different stuff. I've met quite a number of them and been connected with a lot of them. And I really appreciate my parents too.

They have really, so shout out to them. My parents have been so helpful and just supported me so much. And we have really worked together on this, and it's been super, super cool.

So, that is how I got involved in ministry to Mormon missionaries. That's awesome. It sounds like it's been kind of a learning experience both for you and your family because your dad doesn't have much exposure. Or having worked or evangelized Latter-day Saints? Absolutely.

This is the first.

So before all this happened, I don't think I'd ever knowingly met a Latter-day Saint. I don't know if my parents had either. There's not a ton down here in the South, but I mean, I'm sure there's people that I don't know that they are, but we, it's a definitely a learning experience and it's been a kind of a roller coaster. There's been some really high highs and some pretty low lows as well.

So yeah, that's really awesome.

So cool that you read How Wide the Divide. I read that book when I was still a Latter-day Saint towards the end.

So probably around 2008, 2009 timeframe is when I read that book. I think it came out shortly before that. Craig Blomberg is the evangelical Christian you were referring to, who's the co-author. And Robert Millett, right, is the author. I believe it's Stephen Robinson.

Stephen Robinson, yeah. That's right. He wrote the, what book did he write, Matthew?

Well, he wrote Believing Christ and then Following Christ, I think. That's right. Yeah. And he's got the parable of the bicycle in the. Yeah.

I was just thinking about the bicycle one. Yep.

So I'm also fascinated that after church on Sunday, they went out. for tacos with you because It's funny you should ask. Yeah. I asked them right after the sacrament meeting, do y'all wanna go out and get some food and talk? And they said, actually, the president of that ward or whoever was standing right there and just said they can't.

And I was like, okay, can you explain that to me a little bit better? And so they said, we're not allowed to spend any money on Sundays. And so. I said, well, let's just go outside and talk about this. And so I said, well, how is it if I pay for you?

And they said, yeah, I guess it's fine.

So that's how we ended up getting tacos on Sunday. Oh, that's great. That's great. I was wondering if any of that came into play. Yeah, because like the prophet and president of the church when I was a young child was Spencer W.

Kimball. And that was one of his big things was no, no grocery shopping, no going out to eat on Sundays. And it kind of became, like you were saying, you know, that the service was like all about not sinning. Like that was something you were reminded of when I was a kid, like all the time.

So sure, definitely.

So they perceived that as long as they weren't buying the food, but maybe that was wrong. But either way, I was dedicated to having a conversation. I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to have a conversation with you guys.

So yeah, that's awesome. Matthew, do you have any questions? I mean, I could ask all about like the conversations you had with them at dinner. I'm kind of interested because we've, I mean, we talked a lot of Latter-day Saints ourselves still in the discussion groups online. And so.

Yeah. Hopefully, it's just a quick question, but when you were talking about Ephesians 2 with the Latter-day Saints, Did they interpret that passage, you know, eight verses eight and nine of chapter two? It says, you know, by grace you are saved, not that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Because some Latter-day Saints see that as talking about just the resurrection, because the resurrection is a gift that is given to everybody, whether you're a sinner or, you know, you're a Latter-day Saint or, you know, whether you believe in God or not, everybody gets resurrection.

So some people interpret that passage as speaking solely of resurrection. And some say, well, it is talking about salvation in terms of returning to love with the Heavenly Father. But grace isn't all you need. You know, grace is kind of like one part of salvation.

So do you remember kind of how they responded to that? Sure.

So in that first conversation, we went into Ephesians 2, they did not have a rebuttal for anything. And I don't think it was that they didn't know what to say. I think they just were so intrigued by our perspective that they just went straight, dove straight into our perspective. Since then, though, we have had some conversations about grace, even today with a couple of the guys who were talking about grace. And I've gotten A little bit confused because they have said, oh, well, there's the resurrection of the body, and then there's the resurrection of, I guess, the spirit or something, those being separate.

I've heard different things like that, and I haven't quite understood what they were getting at there. But today, I will say that today, when we are talking about grace. Just, you know, what are you guys learning about grace? How do you feel like that plays out? And they had asked me to listen to Brad Wilcox's His Grace's Suspicion.

So I listened to that a couple different times and. It's confusing because some of it, actually, most of it, you're like, Amen, preach on. Like, this is great stuff. And then you're like, but there's something, there's something that's like slightly off and it's hard to pin down. And so we were talking about grace today and how, in their mind, like our salvation is.

Purely by grace, but then you have to keep doing things to continue earning that or something. Like salvation is like a long-term goal. And so you kind of have to keep working towards it.

so that you can learn heaven, like Brad Wilcox says.

So we talked a lot about salvation today and how I, I mean, I told them, I was like, I am 100% sure that I will go to be with the Father after I die. 100% sure. I'm not waiting for some eventual salvation. I'm not. And so we looked at a couple of verses: like, salvation.

Past tense, you have been saved by grace, you know. And the verses, so many verses in John where Jesus says, What do you have to do to have eternal life? You have to believe in me.

So, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question at all, because I kind of went on the tangent there. But I can sort of sense, like, today, They were saying, We think that you are saved by grace, yes, but then you have to keep working for it. And what I said to them is, what you've just said is, we are saved by grace, but. And I said to them, for us, there cannot be a but. We are saved by grace, that's period.

Of end of that sentence. You can't have a but there. It's like we are saved by grace. And then after that, the Holy Spirit works in us so that we can become like Him, so that we can grow in our relationship with Him. But I can see on their faces, there's some confusion there.

Like, you know, we're almost saying the same thing, but we're not quite. And who's right and who's wrong? And it's just like it's hard to pin down a little bit because of those definitions of those words being used differently.

So it's definitely challenging to know how to respond to those kinds of things. Yeah, it's definitely a challenge. You know, their concept of a multi-tiered heaven plays into the way they think about these things. And More recently, especially, they'll Talk about how, you know, by grace, you know, they'll make it to the celestial kingdom as long as they have done, you know, baptism, you know, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They have, they've been baptized, they've received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

They've gone through the LDS temple for temple ordinances. They say we'll be saved by grace eventually to the celestial kingdom. But there's passages in their scriptures about the second tiered heaven that say, you know, the inheritors of that. tier are those who were not valiant in the testimony of christ and and so then you know lessons in the lds church often talk about what it means to be valiant and that's like the the obedience aspect of it you have to be good and you kept have to keep working at it we're saved by grace but like you were talking about right and so i love to share with latter-day saints um romans 5 1 um therefore being justified by faith we have peace with god through our lord jesus christ right if if you're someone who would end up in the terrestrial kingdom which is that second level tier uh they still they say you'll be with Jesus, but you won't be with the Father. You can't bear his presence if you go to that kingdom.

And so, you know, I always share with them Romans 5, 1, if you've been justified by faith, you have peace with God, right? If you have peace with God, you're not going to be delegated to a lower level of heaven away from the presence of the Father.

So yeah, I think, you know, what you said about, you know, that you shared with them that you have 100% confidence that you will be with the Father, that's the right message. Definitely. It just gets, I can see their brains start to go, huh, interesting. Because we asked them, when does salvation happen for you? When do you know for sure that you're saved?

And they say judgment day. And we said, well, we know already.

So that's, you know, that's a huge difference. And there's, there is peace that we can have with God because his justification, you know, he justifies us. We don't justify ourselves. It's not like, oh, you're sort of saved, and then you're going to keep working to justify yourself and make yourself right before God. That's not it at all.

Like, I take off. All of me, all of my good and my bad, and I put on Jesus. And then so when God sees me, he sees the righteousness of Jesus. He doesn't see. My works for my sin.

That's something that I like to tell them too, because it's really not anything of mine that I'm trying to. To get to the father with. I'm not trying to just, yeah, it's not me. It's not stuff that I'm doing, it's literally all him. Yeah.

And that's beautiful. Thank you. Exactly. Yeah. And there's also the kind of aspect that they don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice is for future sins, it's for past sins.

And so any sins that they commit in the future, they're still culpable for and will be judged for if they don't repent. And so, um, That plays in as well, because their scripture says that those who inherit the celestial kingdom and have the presence of the Father are just men made perfect, right? People who have been justified and then made perfect.

So it's like full sanctification is the only thing that gets you the presence of the Father. And there's this possibility that you won't be fully sanctified, which is that goes against all of the promises of like Philippians 1, right? Where Paul tells the Philippian saints that he has confidence that he who began a good work in you will bring it through to completion. And so, yeah, there's that aspect as well. Yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is that whenever you convert, I guess you could say Jesus covers over all of the sins of your past, and then it's up to you to find a way to get rid of all the sins in the future.

That's right. Yeah, I mean, they would phrase it that you're still relying on Christ, right? You're relying on his sacrifice, and his sacrifice will forgive those sins, but you have to repent. You have to make sure that you are living a clean life, a holy life. And if you fail, you could end up being one of those who is not valiant in the testimony of Christ.

I do find it really interesting that they seem to say, Um, you have to, you know, you have to repent, you have to be holy. But then it's like, well, but at least you're trying and you're working pretty hard at it. And you know, you'll get there eventually. And God knows your heart, all that kind of stuff. And it's like, which is it really?

You know? Yeah, there's so much there that is so close, I think, to Christian doctrine and what the Latter-day Saints teach, but the parts that are missing are just so key to what the gospel is. Like, like Latter-day Saints, I think personally, I think they have sanctification down like pretty. Pretty well, you know, right? Like growing in Christ, repenting continually, turning away from sin.

We agree with all that. But the fact that they don't have any concept of imputed or credited righteousness from Christ, they don't have that.

So they kind of conflate justification with sanctification, where, like Paul said, it's like you're baptized, all your sins before baptism are forgiven, then you have to continually repent. And every week, they actually, so what they call the Lord's Supper, they call it the sacrament.

So that's why they call it sacrament meaning. I'm sure you probably picked that up. They believe that when you take the sacrament worthily, meaning you're not committing any grievous sins and you're taking the water and bread as you should, that renews your covenants in baptism.

So they believe they make covenants in baptism, which include being receiving forgiveness of sins. And so each week when you take the sacrament, those covenants are renewed, kind of like when you renew your marriage vows. It's kind of a similar thing. And so then the sins of that week are forgiven.

So it's kind of like almost like the Roman Catholic view of the Mass, where it's like, you know, every time you go to the Mass, you're supposed to repent and like confess your sins to your priest if they're grievous. And then you take the Mass. And you're forgiven, and it's kind of like a constant process of growth, but there's no real time when they can say, Yes, the Father looks at me as perfectly righteous because of Christ's righteousness credited to me. And because they're missing that, they, at least for us in our episodes, we've talked about how there's an anxiety there for a lot of Latter-day Saints because, like you said, they don't know if they die now, if they'll be able to go to the celestial kingdom. You know, they hope, but they don't really know.

So. Absolutely. It's great that you're learning all this stuff. Absolutely. In that first conversation at the taco restaurant, they did two of them admitted to me that they have worried about that in the past, that they have experienced that anxiety.

And I thought that was great that they weren't just saying, oh, no, we never, we're never worried. We just, we're great. We just repent. But they really were honest with me that they have really experienced that anxiety. And it really is a heavy weight to carry because if it depends on me, Know through Jesus, sure, but if it depends on me to eradicate sin from my life.

And to always make sure I'm repenting. Like, I'm a sinful person for sure. And I, you know, there's sins that I commit without even probably knowing about it. And there's pride that's, you know, deep within me. These are things that I can't fix.

Like, this is a part of my fallen nature. And I will be this way. I continue, you know, working towards holiness, of course, along with the Holy Spirit working in me. But this is how I'm going to be until I go to be with the Lord. And so I just can't imagine having that heavy weight on you.

Like, okay, Jesus, yeah, Jesus is there for you, but it's, you know, you really got to work and try to figure out a way to fix this. But on another note, I do, I like to tell everybody that I talk to that evangelical Christians do not think, you know, real true Christians do not think that you can just do whatever you want. I think that's a really common stereotype. And so Every time I just bring up Romans 6, 1, I'm like, you know, is grace an excuse to sin? By no means.

And I really emphasize that. That is not, I don't believe that. You know, I don't believe that because I'm saved by grace, I can just run amok and do whatever I want to do.

So I really try to express that to them because they haven't, they haven't really known any evangelicals. That blows me away because I do live in the Bible Belt, but they don't have a whole bunch of evangelical people around them. that they're friends with. And so I really like to express to them: hey, just because I'm saved by grace through faith alone doesn't mean that I think that sin is okay. Absolutely not.

So I like to tell them that. Man, that's a message that I picked up on, you know, as I came out of the LDS church. I was very much like the missionaries that you're talking to. Like, Christian doctrine was kind of foreign to me. And so, when I started to dig in and study with, you know, study the Bible with commentaries, you know, side by side, and really actually studying through the Bible, reading through the book of Romans kind of for the first time all the way through.

I had read it before, but with like LDS lenses on my eyes, right? And, you know, so reading it through for the first time with the mindset that, like, okay, the LDS church and its doctrine isn't true. What is this actually saying? I noticed that, you know, I picked up on Paul kind of throwing in there his challengers, right? And saying, you know, like you said in Romans 6, you know, is grace an excuse to sin?

By no means, you know, God forbid. And I picked up on that and I was like you, I started sharing that everywhere I could when I would talk to Latter-day Saints. Like, that's, you know, what you all charge all the time is not, is not what it's about.

So absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, I do work to eradicate sin from my life.

So when I say, oh, you're trying to eradicate sin from your life, oh, that's such a shame. Of course, I'm doing the same thing.

So it really is a fine line, but I am not doing that to achieve salvation. That is so important. I am not working for my salvation. not working to Get access to the Father. I am working because I love the Lord and He is working in me to change me and to change my heart.

And so, out of that love, like good works, if you will, just kind of come out of you as He works in our lives. But it has nothing to do with salvation. I really want them to understand that. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's it's yeah, it's so crippling too, at least for me when I think back on my mission and just my life as a Latter-day Saint.

It does feel a lot like you want to be included as part of the Christian club and that we see that all around. They want to be called Christians just like us. We believe the same Jesus, we believe the same gospel, but when you really get down to the nuts and bolts, it's quite different. I mean, even just the fact we talked about they don't believe in justification by faith alone, also their view of God is very radically different. If you get into the details, and it's not just minor details.

And it's almost like they want to talk about how much they're saved by grace, but it's almost like the idea that God saves us at all is what they mean by grace. You know, sometimes I'd hear that, like, well, God didn't have to save us.

So because he gives us this plan, That we have to follow, that's grace, you know.

So, some people, I don't know, did you run into that problem where different Latter-day Saints you've talked to had a different idea or different explanation of grace? And it kind of gets confusing because everybody kind of has a nebulous, confusing, sometimes contradictory view of what grace actually is. I think so. I think so. Yeah.

Have talked about grace some, and I think that there's just this kind of confusion surrounding grace. What is grace actually? What does that word mean? And yeah, it is. It's kind of like, okay.

By grace, the thing that I hear the most is God has given us the grace that we need so that we can become better people over time.

So today, when we were having our discussion, I kind of threw out there like there might be different kinds of grace, and I think that is enabling grace. And then there are other kinds of grace too, like saving, justifying grace. And so we went to Titus 2 and Titus 3, where Titus 2 says, You know, grace comes and it trains us and it purifies us. And then in Titus 3, it says that grace justifies us.

So I was kind of trying to plant this idea that maybe there's different kinds of grace because. If you really read through the New Testament and you look at grace, it's not all just God giving us the power so that we can make ourselves better. There is some enabling grace there. I do believe that God, by his grace, does work within us to make us righteous and to make us holy, but that's not the only thing that it is, you know?

So I think in talking with them, they don't seem to really know what it is. I haven't gotten like a really great definition of grace from anyone. It's just kind of like, yeah, I don't know. It's, you know, but we are saved by grace, though. We know that, but we just don't really know what grace is.

So that's a problem. Yeah, great comments. Yeah, the definition that I remembered most often as a Latter-day Saint was that grace is enabling power. And I think there were several general conference addresses where they talked about that. But yeah, that's the definition that I use most often.

And yeah, it's a very narrow understanding or a very narrow view of what grace can be. Whereas I joined my Christian church and they say, okay, what is grace? We went through this book. Man, I can't remember when we went through the entire year. I forget, but it was a book all about grace.

And he always kept back going back to that definition.

Okay, I know this is like week 15, but we really need, you know, we need to make sure we understand what this is just so we don't go far afield of it. What is grace? And it's basically just unmerited favor is just the broadest definition of what grace is. And so, like you said, yeah, grace can be applied in different ways. It's not just in a simple, a single part of our salvation.

And that's something that I struggle with as a latter-day saint. Right. Actually, it is coming back to me now that in that first dinner that we had with the parents, one of them said, We said, What do you think grace is? And one of them said, God doing something for us that we can't do for ourselves. And I was like, Whew, that'll preach.

That's a good one. That's good. That's a good definition of grace. But I have also heard the enabling power definition. But God doing something that we can't do for ourselves, that'll preach.

That's exactly right. I think that sounds like justifying grace, where he is. Putting all his righteousness on us. I don't know, maybe that's a far jump, but it kind of sounds headed in that direction, I guess. I mean, there's definitely enabling grace spoken of in the New Testament, you know, like that's the work of the Holy Spirit in us towards sanctification, right?

And so, where, you know, where Matthew was saying that he thinks Latter-day Saints have that down, I agree. There's the common misunderstanding, though, is this idea that you're not saved until you're 100% sanctified, right? And, you know, they like to throw out there just a part of Philippians 2:12, you know, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. And the suggestion from them is almost like, yeah, you should be afraid and you should be trembling because you might not get there, right? And I always like to point out verse 13 to them that says, for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do his good pleasure, right?

It's the Holy Spirit working in you. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling because God is working in you. That's the fear and trembling. Like, oh my goodness, the Holy God is working in me to bring me to that point of sanctification. And so it's not a working out your salvation with fear and trembling, like you might not make it.

You've been justified, you've been declared not guilty. And so, yeah. Yeah, I like the way you said that because I, you know, I read that part that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. And I'm like, okay, is this, you know, fear of God that we want to be, you know, we want to have fear of God before a holy God and we are unholy. But I like what you said there, that maybe that is the fear and the trembling is like, wow.

God, you know, the almighty God. Who was and is and is to come is here working inside of me. That is a very special and like precious truth.

So, maybe that is what that fear and trembling is. I like that perspective. Amen.

So, this might be a good time to transition to your questions that you have for us. Absolutely. Yes.

So I was wanting to ask you guys, first of all, if anybody shared the gospel with you when you were missionaries, and if so, how did that go? Was there something that they could have done better, or did that just not happen at all? Matthew, you want to take that first? Yeah, when I was reading these questions before the interview. And I was thinking back, I did remember several times where I guess they were evangelicals, I'm not quite sure, would talk to us.

But I never really got a solid, I never got a really solid presentation of what we've been talking about tonight. I did have a few people pull out the Galatians 1 passage where it says, if even an angel from heaven preached to you another gospel, let him be accursed.

So I heard that quite a lot as Latter Disney. But we just kind of shrug it off as like, well, we believe we do have the real gospel. You know, it was just lost and now it's been restored.

So that's kind of how Latter-day Saints see that. Um But if I'm trying to imagine, like, how, if it was presented to me as a missionary, I probably would just be confused, like you said, because there is such a huge divide in language and just the way Latter-day Saints think about issues. They don't really think in terms of justification, in terms of this legal transaction of righteousness from us, you know, from Christ to us and our sins transacted to him. It's more. Transformational, it's more experiential, it's more about becoming like Christ.

And like, that's that's definitely good, but that's not the whole story, you know. Like, there is, I mean, the whole Reformation was about justification, and so when we talk about credited righteousness, imputed righteousness, that would have been just completely foreign to me.

So, um, But I think as long as you would have preached to me that, yes, you don't believe that you can just kick back and let Jesus tick the wheel and you don't have to do anything, I probably would have been at least willing to talk to you about it. But I still would have had a lot of questions, like the missionaries you've talked to have had. Definitely. So when you are thinking about, I don't want to get off the question too much, but when you are thinking about. that imputed righteousness.

What verses come to mind right off the bat to back that up? I mean, I know Jesus is a propitiation for our sins. There's all these big words in there, but what comes to mind for imputed righteousness? Stupid, we don't have Michael because he's the imputed righteousness guy. That's his thing.

But yeah, don't we know it? To me, I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than Romans chapter 4, because I'm sure you probably run into my episode where I talked about that. I was waiting for the bus to take me to my LDS church meeting, and I was reading through James White's The God Who Justifies, and he was exegeting through Romans 4, and I had heard about it, you know, forensic or, you know. Imputed righteousness, and I heard about all these ideas, and it just didn't really make sense. But just reading through Romans 4 in my Bible next to the book side by side, it just clicked so clearly, you know, that the first three chapters, Paul's been saying, you know, okay, man is created, man has a knowledge of who God is, but the thing is, is that man rejects God.

You know, we replace the truth with a lie, where we, you know, each of us kind of rejects the knowledge of God in us, and there's no way we can be saved without. You know, perfection, you know, without keeping the works of the law. That's really what's focused on in chapter two. Like, it talks about the works of the law. In chapter three, talks about, but nobody seeks after God, nobody, you know, nobody understands, and you can't keep the law.

So, what's the older, what's the alternative? Because if everything we do just makes us dirtier, we can't do something else to make us less dirty, it just makes us more dirty.

So, we have to have a righteousness that's not through works, but by faith apart from works. And so, when I, you know, when just going through those chapters by chapter, it just blew my mind when, you know, when God opened my eyes and I was like, wow, I'd never heard of this before. And it just all made sense.

So, to me, yeah, Romans chapter four is like my favorite in terms of talking about that subject. But, but I'm sure Paul has a lot of other great ones too. Absolutely. Yeah. I'll look back at Romans 4.

Isn't that the part that says, you know, if you work, then your wages are counted as, or your whatever you get is counted as wages, not as a gift. Is that the same chapter? It's definitely Romans. I don't know if it's four. I think it's in four.

Yeah, that's right. It's between three and four. I forget exactly. But yeah, I like 2 Corinthians 5, where Paul talks about the ministry of reconciliation. of starting in verse 17.

Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away. Behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given unto us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the word unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us. the word of reconciliation.

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us. We pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. And here's the one that I really love for imputation: for he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Our sin was imputed to him. And his righteousness is imputed to us, the great exchange.

That's perfect. Yeah, the great exchange right there in one verse. He became sin for us, and then we become the righteousness of God. That's huge. Yeah.

Thank you guys for that.

So it sounds like, though, Matthew, nobody really shared the true gospel with you when you were on your mission. Is that about right? No, not that I can recall. But so Paul and I, we both served in Europe and there are a lot of secular people there that just have no religion in general. And I did run a few run across a few evangelicals, but um Yeah, it seemed more like I don't really recall any specific conversations where the gospel was presented to me.

It seemed more like people were just appalled that we were talking about this prophet, Joseph Smith, and that he came to restore the gospel. And he said that, you know, God told him that. All the creeds of Christianity were corrupt, or no, they were an abomination, and all of the people who professed those creeds were corrupt. You know, they just got shocked at that, or the idea that you know, we were baptized ourselves for our deceased ancestors. They're like, What?

You're baptized for dead people? What's that? You know, like they would just so it seemed more like they were shocked rather than actually trying to present anything to us. They just didn't want to talk to us, or they would make sense. They would be like, Oh, I know you guys, you're the Mormons, you guys are a cult, you know, and they just didn't want to talk to us.

Really, after that, they would just leave us alone.

So, yeah, yeah, that's kind of all I remember. But I'm sure there's probably was a moment like that, but I'm really struggling to remember. Sure, yeah, definitely. What about you, Paul? Yeah, so there's kind of a couple of uh times on my mission where I ran into people that I would say were more evangelical.

I served in Hungary, and so there were a lot of it was, it was majority Catholic, Roman Catholic. There was one city that was really well known for. Being Calvinistic, but I never got to serve in that city. I visited a few times. But one time my companion and I were going door to door on a rainy Saturday afternoon, and we were in an apartment building, and this Baptist couple led us into their home.

And I don't know what type of Baptists they were. They struck me as kind of like the hippie Jesus people kind of Baptists. He had a longer beard, but they were Hungarian. And they talked to us about grace. And I think they probably hit Ephesians 2 that day for sure.

But I remember just being kind of bewildered by what they were saying, not really understanding it, probably a lot like the missionaries you've talked to. But I only met with them just very briefly for maybe an hour that afternoon. And I just remember leaving there thinking about grace, like how different what they were saying was from what I've been taught growing up. And then in the last area of my mission, and I actually pulled out my mission journal because I wanted to, I was trying to remember their names because there was this couple and they were Lutherans and They were named Janos and Maria, which is John and Maria. And they were an older couple, maybe in their late 50s.

And they, I even say here in my journal that, you know, when I talk about first meeting with them, they've been meeting with the missionaries for two years. And a lot of other missionary companions who had been through that area had given up on them. But we, you know, we would have a book of like contacts. And so we would try to look them up.

So we had looked them up when I came into the area and they were like, yeah, come over every Thursday night for dinner. We'll have dinner ready and you can come over and talk to us. and it was always a challenge to try to get try to give them a lesson. Um And it was never an argument. But the thing I remember about them is the hospitality, right?

They gave us dinner, and a lot of other missionaries were like, nah, you don't go to dinner with them. They're not interested. They're not going to convert.

So don't go there. And I was stubborn. I even write about in my journal that they're going to get baptized. I know it, you know, kind of thing. But they would just patiently listen to us and share the gospel with us.

They would even let us read with them from the Book of Mormon, but then they would turn the conversation to To grace. And I never got frustrated with them because they were just so kind and hospitable to us. But those two people, the Baptist couple and Janosh and Martia, are the ones that I think about when I think, you know, people who attempted to share the gospel with me when I was a Maldives missionary.

So Janos and Maria Um, that was a question that I had had recently: is: should I let them give me the discussions? And at first, you know, my parents and I were strategizing, okay, what are we going to do next? And we were like, Okay, you know, we talked all about our stuff today, we got to let them talk about their stuff next time. And they came over and they just wanted to jump right back into our stuff. And we were like, Well, fine, buy us, that's totally fine.

But as time has gone on, I really don't want to lose the opportunity to be friends with these people and to really keep loving them and sharing the gospel with them.

So I'm like, you know, what do I do? Do I say, hey, like, we actually do want to hear discussion number one today, or do you just kind of? Because the last time we had our local elders come over, they just seem like they don't have anything prepared or like anything in mind to share with us.

So maybe they're just like, oh, dinner, perfect. We love dinner. And, you know, The Batemans are cool. Or I don't want them to say, you know, we've decided that. You guys are a lost cause, so we're not going to come over anymore.

And then I can say, wait, wait, wait, tell us the discussions. We want to hear. Does that make sense? Does that question make sense at all? Yeah.

With Dianos and Maria, they had had the discussions multiple times from missionaries before I came into the area.

So when we tried to kind of revisit that with them, they weren't really interested in it. They were just kind about it. They just said, you know, we've heard that before. You're welcome to read with us from the Book of Mormon or from the Bible or whatever you want to share, but we don't need the discussions anymore. We know what you believe kind of thing.

And they just continued to let us share whatever we were going to share. And then, like I said, they turned to the discussion and asked, they just would ask questions, pointed questions to help us think through what Grace actually was, that kind of thing. Sure.

Yeah. I think we're doing okay. I think there was one time though that the guys came over and they had prepared, I think, the first discussion. I don't know what the discussions say. I haven't heard them.

But I think they had prepared the first discussion for us and they went into the preexistence and all that different stuff. And my dad, you know, he's a super nice guy. He had a lot of questions. He was like, oh.

Okay, interesting, you know, doctor. And let's talk about that. Let's look at the scripture, that kind of thing.

So, we asked a lot of questions, and they did not get through anything with us that day because, and I think they're okay with it. I think they were. I don't want them to leave frustrated, like, how these, you know, these people were trying to share the discussions, and they won't even listen to us. I hope that's not the case. And I kind of checked with one of them later, and he was like, No, no, I just like talking about deep stuff.

And I was like, Cool, that works for us. But yeah, I think we're doing okay. I will say that that one day, this is a little bit of a side note, I guess, that one day when they came prepared to give us the first discussion, we were meeting one of the new elders for the first time. Because there had been a transfer, and we really got into the weeds that day. And that's something that I wanted to talk about a little bit today: the getting in the weeds part, because our main goal is to make sure they understand the biblical gospel, not to debate the preexistence or debate the Trinity or these different kinds of things.

I just don't think that that's how we want to spend our time. But that day, that's kind of the, we kind of just got really into stuff that wasn't the main focus. And so I regretted that a lot because there ended up being an emergency transfer and we never saw that elder again. And I hate that because we didn't get to tell that guy the true gospel. And I'm like, man, I really wish we hadn't done that.

Like I said, it's kind of a rabbit trail there. But I do think it's super important to resist those weeds that try to come up and grab you, like, oh, no, we're going to go down this crazy trail of arguing about this or that. And really just be like, okay, we've got to make sure we get the gospel to these people. Yeah, I think that's really good. Really good observation.

It's something I think about. Quite often, I think, in my discussions on Facebook, I can tend to kind of get into the weeds because I do know so much about LDS doctrine and I can get kind of prideful about that. And I have to check myself. And so, yeah, that's definitely a good reminder. That's something I've been thinking about, too, is that I.

I mean, I have just gotten immersed. I'm passionate about this topic. And so I've been reading the books and watching the videos and listening to the podcasts and doing all the things. And I kind of got to this point where I was like, man, I know a fair amount compared to the average American, you know, I know a fair amount about this stuff now. And then I'm like, man, now I just am like getting all this stuff mixed up in my head.

And like, you know, there's 10 different things that I think of that I could tell them, but I'm not going to. you know, it's just, it's, it's hard to kind of sift through that.

So I'm like, okay, let me just reel it back in a little bit and say, okay, what do I know? That's the gospel. And that's what I want to really stick with instead of trying to sift through all these different things.

So I think it's really, it's been super helpful to learn and to know and to understand where they're coming from. And listening to all the things and reading all the things has helped so much. But I almost got to a point where I was like, okay, my brain is full of new information. I just need to like take a step back and. Make sure I'm focused on the main thing.

So, yeah. And I think you can even see that in Paul the Apostle, right?

Someone who was a Pharisee and could brag that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, right? He even says at one point, you know, that he had determined to share nothing but Christ and him crucified, right? Because that's what matters. That's the core of the message. And so, So, yeah, I think we can even see that desire to reel it back in Paul.

Definitely, definitely.

So Sarah, um oh no, go ahead, go ahead. I was just going to ask.

So, having sifted through all this information and all this data, I imagine, well, maybe if you were to go back, you'd probably give yourself some advice to say, hey, maybe like, you know, slow down or don't worry about knowing everything.

So, let's say you have a friend of yours that's also a Christian and they want to talk to their Latter-day Saint friends. What are some of the things that you would tell them to do or to listen to or read that helped you the most in preparing to talk to the missionaries? Yeah. So, you're talking about resources that I would recommend to people.

Okay. Yeah. So, I, let me think here. I have really enjoyed some of your stuff. I think going back to when you tell your stories was really helpful.

Matthew's story, Paul's story, Michael's story. I've listened to all that. That was really good. And I really enjoyed wisdom for LDS missionaries that you did. Those were all really helpful and just pretty practical.

You know, there was some good information in there that was really practical. Oh, you know what? I will shout out to Aaron Shafawalev because I loved his six-part evangelism series on YouTube. I thought that was so fire. Because it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, okay, we got to learn every single thing about the LDS doctrine.

It was really like, okay. How do you talk to people in a way that they're gonna respond well to? I really loved that, and his stories about. Being on the streets of Utah and talking to people were so encouraging. I think he has such an encouraging tone.

So I really, really loved that. Let me think what else. I don't want to miss out on anything that's been really, really. Influential. I would say those are the The things that I would say out of books, um, I loved Micah Wilder's book.

Um, that I mean, obviously, his story is super encouraging, and it encourages me that no matter how hard you are towards it, and how matter, no matter how mad you are about it, it's like God is the one who does the work. And so, that story just encourages me. And these other stories that I hear about people coming to know the Lord really encourage me that God is the one who does the work in these people's hearts.

So, that's something that is. Tough because you feel like, you know, if I just learn the one right thing that I can say, then it's just going to all click for them and everything is going to be better. And I'm a fixer, you know, I want to fix it. And a little part of me recently has been like, man, we've been talking to so-and-so for three months now. And he's still, you know, it's like, I'm encouraged by y'all's stories because it was not overnight.

I think it was you, Paul, that it was 10 years that you stayed in? Yeah. Yeah, 10 years really since I, since the shelf kind of first broke. Yeah. So I'm like, ooh, I got to slow down.

So yeah, those are some of the resources that I really like. That's great. Yeah. And it's, we're encouraged to see Christians who, you know, never grew up with Mormonism. Like with us, we kind of have a, how would you say, a vested interest, I guess, in wanting to witness to Latter-day Saints because we were there.

We kind of have a compassionate heart towards them because we know a lot of them are struggling. A lot of them, you know, they want to know Christ, but it feels like there's always the way I describe it is kind of like you can see Christ off in the distance, kind of like, you know, the mall Santa when the kid's trying to get through the line to sit on Santa's lap. You know, they can see him up there, but they can't get to him. You know, they're so close and they want to get there, but they just don't, you know, they just, they just don't know how. Out of reach.

Everything's out of reach, exactly. And so we have a vested interest, but it's encouraging to me to see Christians like you who are interacting with Latter-day Saints and who do have such a passion for wanting to know more about them. Like we grew up with it, you know, so that's why we know so much about it. We just, you know, grew up. It in our lives, but you have to start from scratch.

And it really is a lot of learning that you have to do if you want to know a lot. But I'm grateful that you put the time and effort to do it. Yeah, thanks. I have two thoughts in response to that.

So the first one is that I just want listeners to know that I am not like, you know, mega Christian, like evangelism girl. Like I, you know, I took an evangelism class years ago and absolutely, it was a nightmare. They're just like, okay, go outside and find somebody to witness to. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the worst thing ever. And I used to really feel like I can't do evangelism stuff.

It's just too hard. It's just too stressful. I don't know what to say. What if I say the wrong thing? And I really want people to know that.

You do not have to have it all together. And no, I mean, you don't have to have an answer to every question. You don't have to be super mega, you know, pedestal Christian at all to be able to invest in people who are lost.

So that's my first thought. And my second one, this is something that's really important to me is that, you know, hearing you guys, it sounds like very few people did tell you the gospel. And talking to my friends, you know, I'll say, hey, have you had any conversations over the past six months to a year, whatever, with any evangelicals? And they say, Either they say, no, we haven't really met anybody, or they say, yeah, like one of my friends said the first evangelical he ever met was super mean to him. Like, oh, you guys are just stupid, and you just don't know, and you're just deceived, and you're an occult, and all that kind of stuff.

And when he told me that, I was like, guys, are we? Are we serious right now? Like, for real, you aren't. You are saying that you're following Jesus, but you meet up with somebody who's lost, and your response is, Oh, you guys are so stupid. I was like, I was so appalled by that story, and just really, really want people to not do that.

That's just not okay. And they're, you know, they're here, they're taken out of Utah, where they're in this Mormon bubble. We have such an amazing opportunity. If you run into one of them, you should consider yourself blessed because we have a really incredible opportunity while they are here to share the gospel with them. And so, I'm like, bro, like this person who's yelling at them and saying, you know, you guys are so stupid.

I'm like, bro, what about the counter-strike? There has to be a counter-strike. They're out here sharing with you. Just share back, absolutely. That's something that is really important to me.

And just, I've noticed that a lot of Christians, since people around here don't really know any Mormons, and probably even if you do, a lot of people do turn up their nose. And I hate that. I hate to even have to admit that, but people really do. People say, Oh, Mormons. I've had it happen to me.

Very few, but I've had it happen where I'm like, oh, I'm witnessing to these Mormons. And they're like, ugh, Mormons, disgusting. And you're like, what do you mean? These people, like, that's something that I want people to know. It's like, these people are not deceived on purpose.

They're not choosing to believe a lie. They just don't know what the truth is. And if nobody tells them the gospel, they have no opportunity to choose to follow Jesus.

So I really, I am passionate about it. I feel like God has really given me a lot of passion for it. This is something that he's just really put on my heart. And it's been an adventure and a very cool adventure. But I just really want.

You know, anybody, if you run into somebody, like, let's do this. Yeah, great. Did you have any other questions for us? Yes, absolutely. All right.

So, let's see. I'm trying to figure out which question I want to do next. This is a good one.

So, I know that it's a really good thing to ask open-ended questions of people. And I just, I don't feel like I'm good at that. Like, I told you guys, I'm kind of a monologuer and I get into it where I'll just be talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and forget to ask questions and really engage through questions.

So, I was curious if you guys have any thought-provoking questions, not to like stump them and put them up against a wall, but any thought-provoking questions that would have been, you know, if you can think back to your time as a missionary, that would have been helpful for you to help move you along the journey towards Jesus. One I think that would be good is: do you think that you have assurance of salvation? What about you? Matthew, what would you suggest? Yeah, that's a great one.

That's kind of one I had in mind. And I guess along with that, do you agree? Do you think the grace or well, I guess that's more of a yes, no question. How would you make it an open question?

So I guess, well, I guess I could take it from Aaron Shafowaloff's book. I think a lot of the questions he's told to ask are really great. Like if he's recommended, if you're starting a conversation with a Latter-day Saint, you're not sure what to say. He says, to ask them when some, when you hear the word gospel, like, what, what does that mean to you? Or what is the gospel that's been presented to you?

And then they'll explain kind of what they believe about the gospel or what they think about the gospel. And then you ask, okay, is it okay if I explain how I understand or how I've been taught or what I believe about the gospel?

So it's kind of like a, it's an invitation for them to share what they believe. And then if you listen intently and actually care about what they believe, and then you say, okay, well, thank you for sharing that, you know, and then they're more apt to want to listen to what you have to say about the gospel rather than just kind of like jumping in and trying to like. Find a chink in the armor to tear down. You know, I kind of like that approach, which is one I've had on my mind for a long time, but I just haven't had an opportunity to really use it yet. But hopefully, I will.

I think that's really good advice because I have seen some videos like that where you kind of say, Hey, has anybody told you the evangelical gospel before? But I haven't thought about that that you can, it's probably best to start out like, hey, you tell me first and then I'll tell you. Because I mean, people have been pretty open when you say, most of them have been pretty open when you say, hey, have you heard this? And they say no. And then they do listen.

But I wonder if they would be, you know, feel more respected if they were asked first, like, tell us what you think about the gospel. That makes a lot of sense to me. And one thing that we've kind of tried to do on our podcast with a lot of interviews is that a lot of times we disagree with something somebody says on our podcast. And instead of the moment they say something you disagree with or you think is theologically inconsistent, you don't jump down their throat and say, well, that's wrong because of Romans 5, 12 or, you know, whatever.

Well, you don't. I do. Yeah. I think that's something that Aaron has kind of admitted because he's talked to a lot of missionaries and he said that, you know, sometimes it's okay just to let them talk and just let them share their mind. You don't have to correct them that moment.

You can have a conversation and say, okay, thank you for sharing with that. You know, I have some disagreements, but here are my thoughts kind of a thing. It comes off as much less confrontational if you do it that way. And that's a big, that's one thing I was going to say is. Maybe it's not necessarily knowing the right questions to ask, which it's definitely important, like you said, the question you asked, but a lot of times it's just how you express it, how the tone of your voice, you know, kind of like your body gestures, because Latter-day Saints kind of, they close off really quickly if they feel confrontation.

The Book of Mormon actually explicitly teaches that conflict is of the devil.

So if they feel in any way that they're being attacked or that their beliefs are being attacked, then they kind of just close up and they say, oh, that's Satan. I don't want to talk about this. I'm just going to leave. I don't want to talk to this person.

So if you can kind of make it, make it sound, you know, not just as a manipulation tactic, but to genuinely be concerned about them, they're probably more willing. to talk to you. Yeah. Aaron has a great YouTube video that I watched a while back where he's actually in dialogue with a couple of LDS missionaries. I don't know if you've seen that video or not, Sarah, but it's really a great video to watch for him modeling what Matthew was just kind of talking about, you know, asking questions of the missionaries, letting them share what they, you know, what their answers are to the questions that he was asking without kind of jumping into Try to correct them.

There is some back and forth, of course, but Aaron does it very. charitably and Kindly, and it's a good conversation. And I know that he took some heat from kind of some other evangelical Christians after that video posted, you know, kind of suggesting that he didn't go strong enough at them. But I think it's a really good video where he kind of mirrors what we should be doing when sharing the gospel with people.

So I think maybe another open-ended question to ask them is: you know, what does it mean to them that Jesus died for their sins? And let them explain what that means to them. Right. The meaning of the atonement. Absolutely.

I think that's, yeah, that's a good thing to think about because when you get into this like quick back and forth, it just kind of goes downhill kind of quickly sometimes, depending on who you're talking to.

So, just saying, here, I'm going to ask you a question, you just go for it instead of, you know, well, well, what about this? And oh, but how do you explain this? Kind of going back and forth, I think could be a really helpful way to approach that. Agreed. All right.

So this is a very specific question, but I'm curious if you guys have any insight on it. We have struggled a bit with explaining what it means that we are glorified and what it means that we are heirs with Christ, because it sounds a little bit lame. What we've told them is, you know, we inherit eternal life and we inherit all the blessings that come from God. And I'm trying to think what else. I guess when it talks about heirs and us becoming like God, there's, we have all, it's hard to explain.

It's hard to explain. His attributes of loving kindness and patience and all those fruits of the spirits are given to us fully, I guess. I have a really hard time explaining what those verses mean, and they're like, Well, obviously, it means that we are going to become gods someday. And I'm like, I I don't think that's what it means, but I'm not sure how to even address that. Do you guys have any tips for that?

Well, I think it first starts off with, well, it's interesting because they kind of start with these passages that talk about being heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. And they talk about how God is our father. And they kind of start off with those passages about our relationship to God. And then they build off of that into their beliefs about who we are and who God is and who we hope to become. But the thing is, I I think we really need to start off with who is God, first of all, because they don't really start from there to describe who God is, like in his perfections and his attributes, how he's completely and totally perfect and holy and there, and he's the creator of all things that exist.

In Colossians one and two, it talks about how everything in heaven and on earth, the visible and invisible, God not only created and Christ, he's specifically speaking of Christ, he not only created it, but he sustains it, he maintains it. And so there's nothing that exists that wasn't created by God or that is sustained by God. And so if we think about that, okay, well, then how could we hope to attain the same level or even close to the same level as God? Like he's just completely unique. And there's passages all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament that speak there's only one God that is like Yahweh.

And so when you start with that foundation, and then you read those other passages that talk about how, like I was reading in Romans 8, where it talks about we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth. Until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, speaking of believers, have the first fruits of the Spirit grown inwardly as we eagerly. As we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. And there's all these passages elsewhere in the New Testament that talk about how we yearn for something better, we yearn to be with God, we're imperfect at this point, but we're not children of God literally by our nature.

Like we're completely different from who God is. God by nature is completely holy and we aren't. And God is, God adopts people as children into the faith. And so. There's just a lot of core interrelated doctrines, but you can get really in the weeds.

But really, we just have to explain who God is. And if we just explain that God is someone totally much greater and infinite and perfect, and he's so much more holy and transcendent than we could ever hope to be in ourselves.

Well, when God adopts us and gives us the ability to become like Christ, to be conformed to his image, like in Romans 8, it talks about it's not a process that has been done before, you know, that God went through and he became a God. And then we hope to become this way, we become gods, and then hopefully our spirit children become gods. You know, God is just, he's totally unique. He's, I know, I'm kind of repeating myself, but yeah, just the uniqueness and the transcendence of God. If you start there, then it kind of helps to interpret all these other passages.

Because if you start with those passages first, you can kind of get a kind of a myopic or distorted view of what they're actually trying to say. They're not trying to say we'll become exactly like Christ because Christ is God and we'll never be God.

So I know that's that's my rambling. Paul's used to it, but sorry to say. Subject you to it. No, no, no. I appreciate all that.

No, Paul is used to his own rambling.

So, yeah, it's a great question, Sarah. You mentioned the time when the missionaries came over and they were kind of prepared to give their first lesson and they started talking about the pre-existence. You know, I'm reading a book now at the moment by an LDS scholar named Terrell Givens, and he wrote it for Oxford University Press. And it's called When Souls Had Wings: Premortal Existence in Western Thought. And he kind of goes through and traces the development of an idea of pre-existence, kind of beginning with Plato, because it's really a Platonic philosophy idea.

And so, one of the things that he points out is that. know the philosophers the greek philosophers recognize that by by claiming a pre-existence of the soul they're kind of putting the soul on the same level as god and that's that's why it that idea is problematic to the christian mind as matthew was discussing um and so you know one of one things that i like to kind of point out because it's kind of like a starting point for kind of discussing what it means to be an heir with christ um is uh first timothy 6 um kind of starting in verse 13. it says i charge you in the presence of god who gives life to all things and of christ jesus who in this testimony before pontus pilate made the good pontius pilate made the good confession to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our lord jesus christ which he will display at the proper time he who is the blessed and only sovereign the king of kings and lord of lords who alone has immortality who dwells in unapproachable light whom no one has ever seen or can see to him be honor and eternal dominion amen so So, one of the things that Paul says here to Timothy is that God alone has immortality. And if we pre-existed, if the human soul pre-existed and is eternal itself, as Latter-day Saint theology claims, then that passage by Paul either has to be wrong or Paul has to be wrong, right? And so, that's a good passage to share with them to kind of set that basis point for: hey, you know, God alone is immortal and has immortality.

And what we get from God in terms of future immortality is the gift. That's what it means to be heir with Christ, right? Christ came to earth to raise mortality to immortality through the resurrection. And so it's a gift. It's not something we already possessed into the past.

And that's what makes it a gift. The other one I like to share is 2 Peter. I'm trying to bring it up on my Bible app. 2 Peter 1:4 says, whereby give, whereby, so after. Set that kind of basis point with First Timothy 6.

Um, you can kind of go to 2 Peter: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, other Translations say you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So that. Immortality into the future is part of the divine nature that we become partakers in, right? It's not something that we have inherently. And so those are kind of two of the passages that I would go to. Sure.

So I think the response might be from them: everybody is going to be immortal. You know, no matter where you end up, everybody's going to endure, is going to live forever, kind of thing. What are your thoughts on that response? Yeah, so you're right. They will say, they will point out that there's like this difference, right, between resurrection as one thing and eternal life as another thing, right?

And they would say eternal life is the kind of life God lives. And Latter-day Saints will, you know, they'll almost turn it. Turn the idea of being an heir with Christ into the idea of that what it means to be God is to be perfectly morally right. And that's how, you know, that's how we become God, right?

So it's a tough one, though, because again, you know, kind of going back to this idea of preexistence as a Platonic philosophical idea. the the argument that Plato made is that because because God is the only kind of, because God has that immortality, right? That's what makes God God. That's what makes him the greatest. That's what makes him supreme, right?

And so it's kind of like there's this idea that if we preexist as well.

So one of the questions I heard once as we were talking about this whole concept on the podcast, and we're kind of talking about the truth. Church Father Oregon, because he was one of those who pushed the idea of a preexistence in early Christian history. And I was listening to a podcast with some Roman Catholic people kind of commenting on Oregon and his teachings and his history. And they were talking about this idea of preexistence, which, and one of the guys asked, well, then why would you become mortal, right? Why would you do that?

What's the point of it if you already have what it is to be God? And so, yeah, LDS theology is totally different that way, where they say that we've got immortality going into the past. And so it's a tough nut to crack to kind of easily have that conversation of what it means to be joint heirs with Christ because they have a completely different starting point. And it is almost one of those areas where you have to dig in. In and kind of have that conversation with them about this idea of a pre-existence.

Where does that come from? Does it come from the Bible? Because Judeo-Christian teachings, aside from a few aberrant teachers, have not held to the idea that the human soul was preexistent.

So, yeah, it's a challenge. It's almost one of those where you have to, I don't want to say you go on the attack, but you have to have a deeper conversation of where did this teaching of yours come from, you know, with them. Matthew, any thoughts there?

So. And it sounds like you're saying that what we inherit is that eternal life. Is that what you're saying? It's the eternal life. It is also, you know, moral perfection through the righteousness of Christ, right?

We will be joint heirs with Christ in that regard. But what I'm trying to kind of get at here is that if we already have that. Preexistent immortality going into the past. Then, what does the resurrection do for us in terms of making us immortal? It doesn't really, because our soul would already be immortal into the past and into the future.

Matthew, you want to jump in and salvage me here? I've been rambling and not really making a whole lot of sense. No, you've been great. I just go back to Romans 8. They usually quote that verse 17: if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and fellow heirs with Christ.

And they don't typically read the verses before that because it makes a distinction between those who live according to the flesh and those who live according to the spirit. And it says, For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of your body, you will live. For all who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God, for you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear. But you have received this spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

So a lot of day saints believe we're all, every human being is a literal child of God, and we have the seeds of Godhood in us. And that's our ultimate destiny and goal should be to become gods. But we see throughout scripture that for those who do not know God or do not live in the spirit live according to the flesh and they're not sons of God. And so we become sons of God through adoption or daughters of God, of course. We become children of God through adoption, not by.

Natural birthright. And so that's kind of what I. Always like to point back to as well. Yeah, same, same kind of dichotomy I was trying to get at there, only pointing to it instead of immortality, pointing to it with regards to being children of God, right? If you're if you're already a child of God, then what does it mean to become adopted?

Right. If you're already immortal, then what does it mean to become immortal? It becomes meaningless. And so that's that's kind of where their theology of a preexistence breaks down. And you know, biblical teaching on what it means to be joint heirs with Christ, that he came into mortality to raise up it, raise up mortality to immortality.

That's kind of the idea that I would go for. Cool.

So immortality, adoption, and who is God, knowing that he is the almighty God. There's never been anyone like him. I like that Isaiah 43: before me, no God has been formed, and after me, no God will be formed. That one's tough. To match up with LDS theology.

But yeah, those are some good insights on how to approach the air versus. Thank you for that. All right.

So, like I told y'all, the first people that I spoke with were just so fun and so easy and just very easy to talk to. I have had a few times when it wasn't really the case, where people were more of like a brick wall and you feel like you're talking at the air. I had one time that was pretty difficult where I just was being as friendly as possible and just jovial and trying to ask questions and trying to get along. And this missionary in question, this elder, was just like really combative and really kind of seemed mad and stuff. And so I think I would like to know your opinion on what to do in that situation.

I kind of froze. I kind of. Hmm. Just kept trucking along and it's like, if. If anything, I'm going to stay friendly throughout this entire conversation, no matter how.

He responds, I'm just gonna stay as friendly as possible. And I really didn't want to just give up and say, okay, fine, I'm not gonna tell you. What I want to tell you, I really wanted to kind of keep pressing forward, but as kind of a side note for that, it was. Ricky to go through that experience and I've noticed how when we are talking about our stuff, we feel great. We're like, oh, yeah, this is great.

I feel like I'm really preaching here. This is really great stuff. And then when they start talking, you're like, Oh, this isn't going so well anymore because they're saying stuff that you just disagree with. And it's so much fun when you're like championing the gospel and then they're like, oh, but it's actually this. And you're like, okay, I don't know how to, that's not as fun.

Let's talk about my stuff again. But with this one particular one, it was really tough because I felt like afterwards, I really had all these thoughts: like, oh my gosh, I definitely messed up. Obviously, if I had done this better, he would have responded better. And it was really, really stressful for me and really hard.

So, you know, it's not always fun and games at all. And I think it's interesting how God started me off with an easy crowd. And then he was like, all right, now we're going to get you into a bit of a tougher crowd here. But I really struggled with that. Like, maybe, you know, maybe if I'd said it differently, then this wouldn't have happened and things would have gone better, and he'd be more likely to receive it and all this stuff.

And you have people's souls on the line, and you're just beating yourself up and stuff.

So, I guess my question is: what kind of advice do you have for people like that who are combative, or people who are just like brick wall type people who just all they do is spout off the phrases that they've been taught to say? And that's it. Matthew, you want to go first? Yeah, each case is different. I guess it also depends on the context.

If you're meeting them, you know, you just bump into them on the street the first time and they're combative, or you've been talking with them for a long time and they're combative.

So it really kind of depends on the situation. Paul and I have a friend of ours who we've responded to some of his claims on the podcast before. And I tried talking to him several times, but he was just very hard to deal with. And he just did not want to talk. He just did not want to have a conversation.

He was kind of very, very much just wanted to take. Tell me how I was wrong and things like that. It got to a point where I just had to block him. And to be honest, I've only blocked maybe two people my whole life. Like I have plenty of former, former people who were on my mission who I've had a lot of really.

deep conversations with and we had a lot of disagreements, but I still haven't blocked them. And in this particular case, I blocked him. And so, you know, I just felt like you have to keep in mind, first of all, it's not our job to convert everybody and it's not our job to make them feel, you know, like we have to curtail to all their desires.

So if someone is crossing a boundary line where you feel like your mental health or your, you know, safety or, you know, your well-being is being encroached upon and you feel like, okay, I don't have time to deal with this or this person is completely unreasonable. It's taking way too much time and energy for me to deal with this person. I think it is okay to enforce those boundaries, you know.

So if you're having like a lot of really of conversations with someone and it's not going anywhere or they're very aggressive or it's very difficult for you to go through, I don't think there's anything wrong in blocking them, like if it's online or whatever. Um, so that's just kind of one thing I wanted to throw out there, uh, in my experience, as well as the fact that, uh, um, in real life, if you know, like maybe you have a meeting with the missionaries and you're not feel like you're not getting anywhere with them, you know, maybe they're just having a bad day because as missionaries, I had a lot of bad days that were really rough.

So, I mean, it's hard to say, you know, don't take it too personally, but at the same time, just remember the missionaries have a lot of stuff going on and they've got a lot of, you know, they get disappointed too. You know, they set up appointments with other people that they talk to that go through, and so that could affect their mood for the day, or maybe they found out some bad news from home and they're feeling homesick, or you know, there's all like a million factors that could deal with their mood.

So if you feel like it's not getting anywhere, um, it's probably not your fault. There's so many other things that go into you know the mind of a missionary and what they're doing every day. Yeah, really good points, Matthew. Um, I agree with Matthew. Every case is different.

You know, there were times when I was on my mission where I was probably the brick wall. Um, just, you know, like you were saying, you know, you feel so good when you're able to share. Your message, and when they're then sharing their message, it's a different feeling. You know, just be cognizant that the missionaries, the LDS missionaries, feel the same way. If I look back at my mission journal, I'm writing a lot about how I have this weight that I feel of people's souls on the line.

And I'm wanting to make sure I'm sharing my message. And so, there, you know, there were certainly times when I went into someone's home and attempted to share my message, and they were more interested in sharing theirs. And that might have made me get a little bit more combative than I normally would, kind of thing.

So, and then there's just different personality types as well. There are, you know, there are LDS missionaries who are timid, there are LDS missionaries who are socially awkward. There are LDS missionaries who are aggressive, you know, all different types. I served with all different types, and I was all different types at different times. I can definitely be socially awkward, I can definitely be aggressive.

I think, you know, what you said, Sarah, I think you largely answered your own question when you talked about how you were just committed to, you know, responding in love and responding with being good natured. You know, I think of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13 about, you know, though I speak with the tongue of angels or the tongue of man and of angels and have not charity, I am become a sounding brass or a tinkling symbol. There were definitely times I met with people who were Christians who shared with me, you know, the kind of more strident anti-Mormon literature and kind of went down that road with me as an LDS missionary. And it's just not effective either for reaching people or for just Effective dialogue with one another. And so I think, you know, just like you said, just respond in kindness and charity and the hospitality aspect of having them over for dinner is just huge.

You know, they're out there, they're working hard to try to get their message across. I will say, like, when I was an LDS missionary, you know, what we had for monthly expenses, it was rarely enough to get us through without having people feed us. And so we were always grateful when people were willing to feed us and show that hospitality to us.

So, yeah, just keep that love flowing and the kindness flowing. And that it'll go a long way. And you probably still will see some who are, you know, having a bad day or just determined that the Batemans aren't going to teach them. They're going to teach the Batemans, you know. And you just have to get through that, I guess.

Definitely. Yeah, I like what Jeff. Said, like, it's easy to think that, you know, I have these emotions and these human stuff going on. And they, you know, they're professionals. This is their job.

They're not supposed to have emotions.

Well, too bad they do. Like, they're humans too. And so they can have anger and they can have fear and they can have hunger or any number of things that's making them grumpy or whatever it is.

So, yeah, I think it's really important just to that. When I was thinking about that situation afterwards, I really was like, okay. you know, there's probably something else going on here, or, you know, I don't have to blame myself. And like you said, Matthew, I think both of you probably said, it's not up to me to save people. I can share and I can do my best, if you will, but it's not up to me.

And I like what you said too, Paul, about hospitality. That is something that. I do, I hope it goes a long way. Like, when I was listening to your stories, one of you. Said, you know, it might have been you, Matthew.

I can't remember who it was, but said, you know, just people who really showed me hospitality made such a big difference. And I just started crying because I was like, I really hope that that's the story for them, too. That they say, you know, these people really poured into us and cared about us and loved us and fed us. And that made an impact on us. And yeah, I just was really touched by that because I was like, man, I hope so.

That's we don't have a ton to offer them, but we can feed them. And, you know, they're growing men.

So that probably, yeah, I was thinking about today. I was talking to my mom, I was like, you know, our mere existence probably makes an impact too, because if they're saying that they haven't really known any Christians or the ones that they've known have been kind of mean, or, you know, they thought that we were all just really lazy bums who don't want to follow the commandments or whatever, just the fact that we exist and being like, hey, we're over here, like there are people like us who are following Jesus and do want to follow the commandments. And they are not jerks. I hope that just seeing that does make an impact on them too. Yeah, I think it will.

For sure. Do you have any things that you've learned through this process that you think would be helpful to share with our audience? Yeah, some of the things I haven't touched on. One thing that I've really been learning recently is to be patient. Like I said before, you know, you think, man, it's been three months already.

Why is this taking so long? And that's something I feel like God has been showing me: is that God doesn't work at warp speed, that's not how God works. And I read this quote the other day from this theologian guy, Kosuke. Kojama. I have no idea if his stuff is solid at all, but I saw this quote and I really liked it.

It said, God walks slowly because he is love. If he were not love, he would go much faster. Love has its speed, it is an inner speed, it is a spiritual speed. It is a different kind of speed from the technological speed to which we are accustomed. It is slow, yet it is lord over all other speeds because it is the speed of love.

Like I said, I don't know about this theologian guy, Kosuke Kojama, but I loved that quote. It really spoke to me because I was like, okay, you're right. I need to slow down and be patient with people. My high school Bible teacher always used to say, God is not in a hurry. He grows things.

And I have to say, I'm in a hurry. And it's not because, I think it's because I do care about them and I do worry about them. I'm concerned for them. I'm concerned for their souls. And so I'm like, okay, we got to figure out.

We got to get this done. We got to work this out. And it's like, I have to remember that God doesn't rush along with people. He works with us at a pace that works for us, I guess, if you will. He can move very quickly, but a lot of times I think he really grows us slowly over time.

And so I really am like, okay, I need to slow. Way down and not feel like I need to just seal the deal with these people right away and not be impatient with them.

So, again, like you, both of you, I think it took a lot of time for you to work through all of those new doctrines that you were learning from the Bible. And so, yeah, I really have to slow down and give it some time. I think on that note, from the Bible perspective, I think everybody you talk to who's talking about witnessing to LDS missionaries really says tell them to read the New Testament. And so, we've really been trying to do that. And I would encourage anybody listening to do that too, just to really challenge them to read the New Testament and maybe to, you know, give it a fresh look or whatever you want to say through the eyes of a child, whatever you want to say.

But that, you know, I can, I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face, but I don't think that it's me who's going to change people's minds at all. I really think that it's the power of. God and the um the Bible, the word of God spoken, um. Through the people who wrote the Bible. And then, how do I get to participate with that?

Is I, when I'm being patient and I'm asking them to read the New Testament, hopefully they're taking that challenge, then I get to participate by praying. I think prayer cannot be underestimated or undervalued. It's too easy. I think the enemy is really just like, no, it's fine. Like, prayer doesn't really work.

You're like, no, I'm just going to fight through that. I'm going to pray for these people, like, pray like crazy for them, because I don't have the power to change anybody's mind. And people have scales on their eyes, they're blinded, they can't see. And so I just think that prayer cannot be undervalued. And I think that.

There's so much that God does when we pray. He really opens doors and he really, you know, a lot of cool stuff happens behind the scenes that we can't see. And so I think that when we get up to heaven someday, there's going to be a lot of cool things that we're going to say, Oh, wow, I prayed for that, and here you are. It's just, it's cool to think about that, but I think prayer is super, super important. Let's see.

I agree with. Your comment there on prayer. I remember there was this one woman I met with pretty regularly on my mission with my companion, and she would always tell us that she was praying for us. And I remember at the time thinking kind of very pridefully, like, oh, you're praying for us. Like, we're here trying to deliver the truth to you, and you're praying for us.

But, you know, you also mentioned seeds and the speed at which God moves, you know, which is all very biblical. Right. And I just love all of that because it did take me a long time for the messages to sink into my head, but they were there. They sat there. When I read the New Testament, kind of, I think I mentioned in my story episodes that I determined to read all of what all four books that the LDS accept as scripture while I was on my mission.

And the New Testament was last. And so, I was in my last area of my mission sitting on the bus reading a little pocket-sized New Testament as we would go from place to place, and just noticing how many different things there were in Paul's epistles that weren't adding up with what I understood of LDS teaching. And those things just stayed there. And the message of grace that I heard from the Baptist couple, and the ideas of that you can be saved without works that I heard from Janos and Maria, they just ate away at my mind until five years later, I'm married and preparing to give a talk in LDS. Sacrament meeting and, you know, come across the passage that I think is really cool.

And I'm going to share, you know, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And it's like a bolt of lightning hits me: whoa, wait a minute. I didn't have to become perfect before he died for me. I didn't have to become perfect before he was willing to save me. You know, so yeah, everything you said is great, you know, because those little seeds that get planted, they'll sit there and they'll grow and they'll take hold.

The word of God is powerful, right? It's like a two-edged sword and it doesn't return void. Absolutely. Yeah, planting seeds, it's just tough because we can't see it. We can't control it.

We have no control over how those seeds are where they land. You know, do they get water? Does God turn it into a plant? We have no control over that, but we can have faith that God is working. I mean, I know that God is working.

Any of these people that I'm interacting with, I just assume that God has specifically brought them across my path for a reason. And I know that He's working. And that just excites me. It's really cool to be a part of what he's doing. It really is.

Well, Sarah, it's been great having you on Out of Brightness. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights, sharing your story and your passion for reaching Latter-day Saint missionaries. We'll be praying for the work that you and your parents are doing with the Latter-day Saint missionaries that you come in contact with, that the seeds you plant will be watered and brought to fruition by God in the lives of these young men and women.

So thanks again for coming on. We'd love to have you back on to hear more about what goes on in the future with this. But you mentioned Micah Wilder's book, and I think this is a good opportunity for me to. To throw out this offer on this episode.

So I've got copies of Micah's book that when I saw Adams Road in concert last year, I got him to sign. Copies of the book for me.

So I'm going to throw this out here for our listeners. When this episode publishes, the first listeners to reach out to us at our Facebook group will get a free copy of Micah's book. Cool.

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate talking to you. It's been awesome. Yes.

Thank you for coming. We appreciate it. Yeah, definitely have you come back. And we're not expecting all the missionaries to be members of your church, but we'd love to have you back. Thank you.

Thanks, Sarah. Have a good one.