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Maybe You Don’t Need a Reverse Mortgage

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore
The Truth Network Radio
August 17, 2022 5:30 pm

Maybe You Don’t Need a Reverse Mortgage

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore

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August 17, 2022 5:30 pm

A reverse mortgage might seem like a great option for seniors who have equity in their home, yet still find it hard to make ends meet. But is it their only option? On today's MoneyWise Live, host Rob West will talk about some reverse mortgage alternatives that seniors can consider. Then he’ll answer your calls on various financial topics. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The reverse mortgages these days. It's surprising that only about 2% of folks eligible for them to Cornell Rob West. Maybe the 98% know something the others don't.

Not just the reverse mortgages have high fees and lots of rule, but that there are alternatives all talk about them today minutes on your calls and 800-525-7000 800-525-7000. This is moneywise live biblical wisdom for your financial decision will no doubt nice monthly check from his company could be a big help to someone who has all or most of their house paid off, but still struggles with day-to-day expenses that could seem like a real lifesaver. But there is no free lunch to get that money, you're giving up equity in your home and that might be a concern for a lot of seniors who would like to leave something to their heirs, not a mortgage company so what sounds good doesn't always work out that way. Reverse mortgages typically have higher interest rates and other costs and fees attached to them. You also pay the usual closing costs that you would for any mortgage appraisal loan recording credit check and title insurance, but then you'll also have to pay a mandatory counseling fee, a 2% mortgage insurance fee upfront and then an annual mortgage insurance fee plus a monthly loan servicing fee of up to $30 if your interest rate adjusts monthly. But there's an even bigger thing you have to watch out for with a reverse mortgage. And that's the company trying to sell you one through TV ads and mailings. You have to know who you're dealing with. As I said the pitch may sound good but the reverse mortgage companies haven't always lived up to their promises.

Some years back, the consumer financial protection Bureau. Find three of these companies for deceptive advertising. No wonder that Consumer Reports says you should consider a reverse mortgage only if there's no other way to stay in your home and pay your bills and you should only reach that decision after exhausting all the alternatives and there are four of them to consider. First, sell your home and buy something smaller, leaving you with the difference in cash. This can be difficult from an emotional standpoint because a home you've lived in and raised your children and can hold a lot of memories if you can overcome the emotional attachment. Not only will downsizing give you the cash you need, but the reduced expenses may just be what you need to balance your budget. The next alternative if you haven't entirely paid off the home yet is to consider refinancing the balance you owe.

Interest rates have been climbing but they still may be low enough that you could reduce your monthly payment and free up cash.

If you go that route you want to avoid if at all possible. Extending the term of the loan.

If you have 10 years left on your current mortgage you want to refinance with a new lower interest 10 year mortgage and you really want the new interest rate to be at least one point lower than the old rate of the next alternative to a reverse mortgage is a little outside the box, but how about selling the home to a family member. Perhaps children who would be heirs anyway when you go home to the Lord. If you sell the property to a family member you get cash out and then you can lease it back and remain living there.

The family member or members could then take advantage of certain tax deductions for landlords. Now the last alternative is something of a variation of selling to a family member, just as before that person buys the house from you, but with what might be called an interfamily mortgage.

In other words, you owner finance the purchase, the family member makes the monthly mortgage payment to you instead of a bank giving you the cash to meet your expenses. There's another advantage to owner financing. The sale of your home to a family member or anyone else you would reduce the amount you could potentially owe in capital gains taxes.

If the outright sale of the home would generate a profit of more than $250,000 for an individual or 500,000 for a couple filing jointly, then spreading out those payments over a number of years could reduce the amount of capital gains you have to pay in any given year.

That part can get pretty complicated so it's best to consult with an estate or tax attorney on how to do this so you pay the least amount in taxes. Any of these alternatives are worth investigating if you're struggling day-to-day expenses, but you don't want to sign your home over to a reverse mortgage company. So beware. Take your time. Pray and then decide the best option for you are your calls or next. 800-525-7000 800-525-7000 Rob West and you're listening to moneywise live your financial decisions with us today moneywise live on my West euros take your calls and questions. We got lines open. Would love to hear from you. 800-525-7000 800-525-7000.

This is the programmer. Each afternoon we come together to mind God's word to apply his timeless wisdom to our role as stewards or managers of God's resources. As you seek to find God's heart and be found faithful in setting your lifestyle and managing your spending and giving generously and paying down data and thinking about the appropriate amount to save for the short and long-term. What is that look like, well, we want to help you apply timeless biblical wisdom to those decision so you can make decisions with confidence, we'd love to hear from you with lines open 800-525-7000. In addition to your phone calls today will have a chance to dive into at least one of your emails we receive emails all the time. The questions@moneywise.org we heard from Sue and she's asking about repairing her credit score. She had a job loss in some major medical expenses that resulted in collections and charge-offs. She has good job now in his current, but wanting to improve your credit score, hallway, and on that today plus howling wind to help the needy. That's right.

Often, we will come across folks on our path in a difficult or desperate situation was God's word say about that and how and when do we help at least give you some thoughts to think about today.

A little later in the broadcast. And of course your questions as well. 800-525-7000. Let's dive in. There will head to the carpet capital Dalton, Georgia Justin Eager redheads are gone and I had a question about I was out of the country for about two years and without receiving any income.

I know that I don't have to file taxes browser got married and had a child would benefit me any objective. I hadn't follow tactical gear. I just got back in on this tax season actually so SURE how to handle that about is that what you don't need to file taxes in 2022. If you would be filing jointly at 25 if you have income of less than 25,900 as a single file or 12,950. I think the only question would be, could there be refundable tax credits that you would be eligible for give something like that. But otherwise, really. There is no tax due. If you didn't have any income that exceeded what is essentially the standard deduction yard. I wasn't sure if maybe there would be some refunds for having dependence at the time are not. Yeah, I mean that the dependence that you now have would apply to a future tax year were you had income in that year and you'd obviously be filing under a different status now so it never hurts to check with the tax preparer but essentially you don't have to file if you don't meet those minimum so the question would be whether you're giving up anything and I think that would be worth a conversation with a CPA or accountant who could give you more specific advice for that particular tax year, but just as a general rule of thumb if you don't meet those thresholds. You don't have to file I wanted to appreciate adjustable thanks for your call today. We help along the way let us know.

That said, the little bit south to Florida.

Robert thinks are going to read always listen to your lot never actually call you later. I'm going to retire will actually semiretired in December on 64 and I'll be sick in December so a lot of stupid stuff going on like you know a 401(k) plan loss like $50,000 out of my 401(k) so I just moved it out and put into the IRA right now is just sitting in a money market and I'm not sure how to reallocate that on yeah well I think the key is you really making sure you are moving toward deploying or redeploying an investment strategy, but given that you've already made this change when you rolled out to the IRA.

It had to come in the form of cash obviously want to recoup those losses to the extent possible. Now the major selloff that we saw in the first part of this year a good bit of that has reversed over the last seven weeks or so with the pretty steady climb. Most market analysts believe that will see another down ligament were not clear of the possibility of recession. There's still quite a bit of the headwinds out there in terms of high inflation.

That's probably not returning to the Fed's target of 2% anytime soon there to continue to hike rates until they see substantial easing of inflation. That means a slowing of the economy. Now there's some good news out there. It seems like corporate earnings for all intensive purposes are holding up and there's a still a very strong job market and with revisions for the first and second quarter of this year.

There's a chance they were even negative and so is a good likelihood were not in a recession. Could we miss one or have a minor one, sure that we could see the market selloff again. So I think the key for you here is first to determine with this money, that's the 401(k) now in the IRA.

What is your need for that, both now and in the future of you don't mind me asking Robert about how much do you have in the portfolio like 207,000 okay 207,000 and that's after that you said roughly 50 that you lost a lot okay and you are you fully retired now.

He said you're getting ready to is that right now I'm still working full time loving pretty good now, but I'm in construction and employer is so hot, so brutal. Yeah, I understand from South Florida. So I get that when you retire. Have you done a retirement budget just a look at what your expenses would be and how you get a cover that is you.

Can you pull an income from this 207,000 nerve you have other income sources well yeah well I got it like a rental property that I ran so cheap and then announces about will be paid for December.

The rental house and the house I live in you know I don't really like my trucks are paid on a bunch of fake welding a plate or tractor so prickly and she has a pretty good job and medical so you know I really don't have to have the funds, but you know to go and do a lot actually, I probably would not like little billionaires.

I got out of law, not a whole lot is all about it a lot. Okay the direction I go.

Robert is given the sounds like most your basic expenses. Perhaps most of them are covered through what Baltimore would be Social Security but then your wife's income and so this is money that just can continue to grow and perhaps for quite a long time to make that year. The Lord doesn't call you home and he doesn't return you.

You know could need this money the last couple of decades or more. So I think the idea right now is to systematically move it back into the market, but perhaps into an asset allocation that's a little more conservative just given your proximity to retirement could be something like 40% stock 60% bonds could even be 50-50.

Just while you're trying to wait to recoup what you lost to get on the other side of the current economic environment, which could be a year or two, but I recommend you get some counsel to help you do that, I recommend a certified kingdom advisor who could meet with you do a lot of discovery get to know you and your wife what God is doing in your life in the future and then deploy an investment strategy that's consistent with that we not dropping it on the market.

On one day, but over the next six months.

You can find a CPA, therefore, that our website moneywise.just click find a CK interview two or three will be right back a moneywise lives there with us today. I moneywise live biblical wisdom for your financial decisions got phone lines open. Would love to hear from you. 800-525-7000 805 five 7000 with your financial questions today before you go back to the phones. You know the thousands of our listeners, young and old are having great success in managing their finances, their spending with the moneywise app I can think of a better tool to help you manage your budget pay your bills plus have biblical financial advice at your fingertips and it's available in desktop or mobile so moneywise.org you can click the app tab for more details.

By the way, if you're already using the moneywise app and love it. We'd love for you to post a review in either the Apple App Store or the android android play store that would obviously give other folks visibility into what's happening with the moneywise app and how perhaps they could use it as a biblically-based money management tool as well.

Again, to find the moneywise@moneywise.org, click the app tab or if you're in your App Store. Just search for moneywise biblical finance card back to the phones we go with lines open 800-525-7000 with your financial questions today to Cleveland, Ohio Regina, thanks for calling the redhead on anything I get an prom and count out all shout absolutely about three years away. Three maybe or is a white guy that a lot of why is it making it but painting on Dan retirement ain't like that. I have not alter retirement. I have about 32,000 and and made me and I have about.

I wanted to about 11 and 11 $10,000 in credit card/loan that I am marking a payoff that paid off about. I wanted to about 15,000, and lot at any credit card debt already, but my question is, you know I had been at whack and retirement saving should I take, at paid me and put it in here like a rock. I have a great IRA. I retire in about three years.

Yes I would love for you to really knock out the credit card debt portion of this at a minimum Regina about how much of that I think you said 10,000 in loans is on credit cards all that are just right now night out and edit and grant and credit is only about a thousand on credit cards and bank rights and then what type of loans do you have the other roughly 7000 to 9000. Okay, what's the interest rate on that right now I think about him yeah okay you know I would focus on paying that whole 10,000 offers Regina because you're not gonna get a guaranteed Neo, 11% return on anything you put in a Roth IRA is much as I love our Roth IRAs just because of how effective they are is a is a long-term retirement savings tool and with the credit card debt.

Those high interest rates are likely rising so as the Federal Reserve raises the Fed funds rate.

Other rates are rising alongside it, and that includes the variable interest rates that are attached to your credit cards. Those could be up to the 18, 20, 22%. So, given that amount your spending on those debts I get those both knocked out with any surplus you have. So I go back to your spending plan and look at you know what you can do to dial that back now you mention you 32,000 in savings if that's just liquid savings and you know I would say you really only need probably six months in emergency reserves, so anything over six months worth of expenses. Perhaps you could just go and wipe that debt out as well and then you could take what you were sending to the loans, plus any other surplus you have and I do like a Roth IRA a lot. We just asked though you said your 3 to 4 years away from retirement. Do you have a company-sponsored planet work or no air but it not right where I might and there. Now my loan and the credit card and a lot but it greatly reduced me in about 20 MB again on every year like that kind bothered me make filing thinking about Ron and I innovate income sure I want that. How much would that free up though how much you send and across all those loans and credit cards each month about it out yet so you can you know over 12 months.

You could replenish all of that that your spending right now, toward the debt service and you know then you could build that backup so because of your spin a thousand month be 12,000 over a year and 10,000 wipes it out. So I think to keep going. Tap into that. You still got sounds like way more than six months expenses in that even after the 10,000 get that paid off.

You could replenish it to the current level you're comfortable with and then let's start funding the Roth IRA up to 7000.

If you're over 57,000 for this year so I like the plan with the Roth IRA.

I would just use the funds you have for the debt first. Now, if you wanted to get it in for this calendar year. You just have to contribute to 7000 between now and when you file for 2022, so that could go as far as next April before you have to get that contribution and so I balance those two with a priority toward the death Regina.

We appreciate your call Stan, though I notice in your book, is our gift in thanks for calling will be right back on moneywise. Life moneywise live phone lines are open 800-525-7000.

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Thanks in advance are heading back to the phones today to take your questions. Are you thinking about bringing in your spending. So you can accommodate for inflation right now, is it your long-term savings and vesting.

Given the volatility in the market. Maybe it's your giving strategy or debt reduction. Whatever's on your mind today would love to help you apply timeless wisdom to those decisions and choices. So give us a call. Our team is standing by. We have several lines open 800 525 7000s a number to call Charlotte said Ohio Gary are next in the programs or go ahead.

Thank you for all the valid information you give us understand the government going to hire 87,000 more new IRA, IRA, agents a lot. What is one of the Internal Revenue Code to do well first of all, I think you've got recognize that this is become a political lightning rod of the conversation during the last several weeks. Since this is come out. I'm not saying that one side or the other is right or wrong, but we gotta always step back and look at, what's the source of the information that's being cited and referenced the 87,000 number in terms of additional employees that are being claimed to be coming on as IRS agents comes from a report from 2021 from the Treasury Department.

That said, if a 78 million in new IRS funding was approved, it would enable the IRS to hire 87,000 employees by 2031 so that's 10 years after the report.keep in mind, around 50,000 staff members at the IRS are eligible for retirement in the next five years. A lot of that is replacing these folks.

Of course a lot of that is for the hiring of new folks, which they haven't said specifically how many, that is, I think of the latest I heard was somewhere around 7000 to 12,000 new staff would be added in well least increments of 7 to 12,000, and then a good bit of that is for advances in technology and customer service folks. So these are aren't all in enforcement agents by any means what they're trying to solve for is closing what they call the tax gap, which basically the figured that's believed to be the closest to accurate based on a number of sources is that there's somewhere between 350 and 400 billion a year that is due to the IRS that they don't receive because of underreporting of income and so essentially they're trying to close that gap through modernizations through replacing workers that are really rolling off and yes adding some new staff because they been significantly under resourced. Now a lot of this political rhetoric comes in when they say well who's being targeted here in US Treasury Secretary Yellin sent a letter recently saying this would not be used. This is what she saying would not be used to increase the share of small business or households below 400,000 in terms of increasing the percentage of audits, which is still very small me most of the audits you where you get higher percentages is with the wealthy but also those who are self-employed. Typically, just because they're not on W-2 income and those who have a disproportionate of let's say giving to their income which it would be a lot of believers as well so I think you know at the end of the day. Obviously, the IRS is trying to close that tax gap, I will. I don't think were to see anywhere near 80,000 new tax agent said they were to see a replacement of a lot of folks some addition but also some modernizations now. Beyond that, it does get political. And the proof is going to be in the putting in terms of how is this actually used and does it generate more revenues and from what sources you know as the government looks to generate more. So it's going to be an interesting debate that will continue and monitor very closely and I'm sure you'll hear a lot more about it, but that's at least what I can tell you based on what I know Gary is that helpful.

Thank you for your kindness IRA. God bless you my friend hundred 525-7000 looks like we have two lines open to Florida. Kathy, thanks for calling her and had your program I try to listen all the time and I learned so much from taking Mike my day is about filing income tax. How we get married in May.

So next year in 2023 will file married filing joint. But that complements my husband lived and worked in Italy for 38 years as violinist, so his income is from the Italian government pension there. They collated their Social Security over there what they call it until he gets his pension from Italy and I just don't have any idea what were going to be looking at when we go to file our taxes this year in America we are still waiting on the Italian government to get it through their head over here and has been here for her two years this October living and and I retired where filling up paperwork for that right now and he stopped paying Italian taxpayers paying Natalie seltzer deal well in a couple of thoughts. We one would be just related to the tax situation. I'm not a CPA and so I would want to get into that and it gets pretty complicated pretty quickly when you're coming from one country to another. So I would absolutely get some counsel from a CPA in the preparation of the returns for the next couple years and I would specifically select a CPA who has experience in these international situations to be able to accommodate your husband so that that is filed appropriately with regard to credit and the transfer of credit to America, you know, I don't know a whole lot about them. We really have invented them, but I've seen some reviews on some organizations that will claim they can essentially translate or transfer your overseas credit history into US credit history so if you go to nerd wallet which is be a pretty helpful resource just on ratings and looking at an honest evaluation.

A lot of these companies both in the fin tech space as well as credit cards, but also in credit reporting type issues.

You'll see that company called nova credit is actually pretty highly rated and essentially what they claim to do is through technology.

Translate international credit data into the US equivalent score and then it can be shared for the use of securing credit products. Here again I don't have first-hand experience with it so I do your research and due diligence.

But that is an option and there are folks out there that really specialize in that. So I read up on that it nerd wallet.com and see what you can find again for the tax situation. This is the year Kathy for you to make sure that you have some really wise counsel therefrom CPA that's helpful and that we appreciate your call today very much bookseller take a quick break we come back for some final segment we got some great questions lined up will tackle those and always and on the question that we hear often helping you, and when should you help thanks return and minimize live biblical wisdom for your financial decisions back to the phone's Grand Rapids, Michigan. Cora, thanks for going to read great yes ma'am the redhead. You know what I year in about 25 borrowers that up to 6.4 $0.48 thousand and 29 and so all I can go back and try get right down delete time just to clarify couple things did you say the interest rate is six or 14%.

Now .14 .0 6.14 okay, got it and why is the balance growing. If you had late payments was their penalties. What's going on there. No yeah but with a car loan if that's what this is. There should be an amount going to interest but also an amount going to principal in the balance should be declining, not increasing. If you're making your payments by my loan from the bank and bank got it right will you need to call them and find out why the balance is increasing because of you been making your payments on time.

The balance should not be going up. It should be going down. So you need understand they need to give you an account of an audit. If you will, of the payment history and show you where the money that you're sending is going and why it's not enough to cover the interest on the account because obviously your they're saying essentially that what you're paying each month is only a portion of the interest and so the rest of it. The balance is increasing. Well, that's a recipe for disaster because you'll never pay it off at the same at the same time you do that you also need to begin exploring Cora and looking at refinancing this and I would look at refinancing it with a car loan. What is the age of the car, O God I see so yeah this is this is stuff well.

We need to look at what you have right now with the national Bank and then you need or Huntington bank and find out how you get this going in the right direction. See if you can. They can re-amortize it, or you can increase the payment because right now it's increasingly gotta figure out why and then beyond that, I think we need to look at perhaps getting another loan of some kind that could be in the interest rate isn't terrible.

We just got a re-factor the loan so that there's a payment that you can afford, but where it's actually reducing the balance every month so I want you to get some more information and then reach out to one of her moneywise coaches. In fact, if you just hold the line again. BT will get your information and will have one of our coaches call you and they can help you process and understand the information you get from Huntington bank and perhaps give you some counsel and where you go from here, but we need a bit more information before we can do that. So hold the line will get your contact information and I'll have one of our coaches contact you to help you with this in Cora. We appreciate your call today to Wyndham Ohio Bob redheads are being a couple months ago and so I started to need to read receive Social Security and I was still working and I expect I'll work for another 10 years before I retire and I wondering do you have some recommendations on what I should do with the money that I get from the so security until I need it, and 10 years. How much are we talking about how much of you built up. You could put to work and how much you receive in a month. I have I have 100,000 from the sale of the year ago and I have been adding to that at the rate of 500 a month and so I asked that I'm going to start putting an additional 1500 away a lot okay and how much you want to keep liquid. I have a six-month by emergency fund so in addition to the hundred thousand yeah okay all right yes you could put that to work I might probably connect with an advisor Bob who can really help you think about what is your time horizon on this. How conservative do you want to be with an investing strategy.

But that 10 years is plenty of time for you to say let's take a little bit of risk and see we can grow this money over the next decade since you don't need it. Your adding to it and you got plenty of emergency reserves on the side so I'd reach out to a certified kingdom advisor there in Ohio and see if you can interview two or three. Find the one is the best fit and put together an investment plan or strategy that makes sense in the other approach we want to do it yourself would be to say maybe we do 7030 portfolio or 6040 of bonds to stocks and you could use indexes you know a total market index fund and a total bond index fund but but with those allocations I talked about were used fairly conservative, and the goal is over the next 10 years just to grow this very inexpensively. If you wanted to do it yourself you can take that approach.

Otherwise, I'd prefer especially in a market like were in right now that you know is on the heels of your long bull market. We could be in a sideways market here for a while. It's really a time to have an active money manager and I think some of you could build that portfolio for you with your goals and objectives in mind and deploy this money in a thoughtful way. That's disciplined and rules-based over the next 10 years makes a lot of sense. So I either one would be fine if you want an advisor you just said to our website moneywise.org and click find a CK Bob.

We appreciate your call to Christine in Florida. Red Hat all I know how the hell I'm already retired my year we had a fully paid for home waiting for us in North Carolina and wearing it to go there that we can go until he retired right now where in central Florida that is got crazy building going on it's it's very very fast.

Let's start the real estate is concerned that we got this big scare until our prices is listed as really high when you fill out our fear over the next two years. It's going to go into recession in the housing market, all part of gotta sell our house and we getting substantial and last would help quite a bit and then just try and rent in town that the rental higher than our morning is and just the whole double moon. So how do we make that decision anywhere where Welling ably if we actually have to do to go-ahead and put the house that the family now and trying to find a place to live and get ready for the move to Northline yeah you know there's no way to know for sure and I can tell you absolutely the housing market is cooling after being on a massive tear over the last several number of years and that's driven largely by slowing in the economy and interest rates rising, but the things you have going for you, Christine RA, we still have a housing shortage in this country because of the folks now working remotely the millennial's are now the age with her having kids and buying single-family homes and you have an added benefit is that Florida is a huge destination right now because of high taxes and other states are seeing a massive inflow there.

Plus the other not making any more waterfront real estate so you're in a strong position there. You know they say, location, location, location. So I think from that standpoint you are going to whether even a cooling in the housing market in Florida, perhaps better than other parts of the country. Even if we saw a recession most economists think at this point, it'll be a mild one, at least in the near term. The next couple years like you're talking about. At the end of the day. Could we be wrong in the housing market begins to me and I have a pretty significant pullback. It's possible but I think for the reasons I mentioned Florida and just the lack of inventory of homes I'd be comfortable if you guys really want to avoid the double move you guys stay in and you know selling it when you're ready to go. But if you just really feel like and were not being good stewards. We don't lock the sand and you're willing to make the double move.

You can certainly make a strong case that you know it's at its peak right now and it's only going to cool. From here the question is are we just going to move from a red-hot buyer's market to more of a sellers market, but prices level off, or they actually can a fall if they follow. I think it's good to be minimal, but that you know the end of the day nobody knows is that helpful. You're welcome Christine, thanks for calling today. The folks we covered a lot of ground today.

Some really great calls you as we wrap up we just share a couple of thoughts on this topic of how and when to help the needy. You know, poverty and need are facts of life in a fallen world. Jesus clearly said that in Matthew 26 the poor you will always have with you some poverty. Of course, is self-inflicted. May we read in Proverbs the sins of laziness, stinginess, love of pleasure, greed, gluttony and drunkenness can all lead to economic poverty. Sometimes though, people can become poor through no fault of their own generosity towards those in need, no matter how they got that way. Should be a hallmark of Christian living in the Bible clearly says that God expects us to be generous givers but were also supposed to be good stewards. So how do we balance that howling wind we help the needy. Well, I think a couple of thoughts on that one is the Lord is absolutely concerned about the poor.

So we should always be ready to help those truly in need. Proverb says could be Psalm 82 says defend the cause of the week and the fatherless maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. On the flipside, Proverbs 21 says of the man shuts his ear to the cry of the poor to will cry out and not the answer. So we should defend the rights of the poor.

But we should also include the poor in our financial giving proverb says that as well so I would say you know if God prompts you to give no matter the situation, listen to his voice. We are to give generously sacrificially willingly and cheerfully to meet the needs of the less fortunate and we meet physical needs. There's opportunities to fill spiritual needs as well. You think about that folks actually along with us today grateful for Gabby Tian Amy Rios and also Jim Henry serving as really well today appreciate you being here and will look for you tomorrow


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