Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. As usual, the number is 877-207-2276. If you want to give me an email, that's easy to do as well. All I have to do is send an email to info at karm.org, info at karm.org, with the subject line radio comment, radio question. And we'll get to it.

We usually get some on Fridays and things like that, so if you want to give me a call. Instead, if you have a question that's kind of pertinent, you're kind of waiting for it, you want to have an answer, give me a call. All right, all right, all right. Hey, let's get on with Eric from Salt Lake City.

Hey, Eric, buddy. How you doing, man? How you doing, Matt? I'm doing well. Oh, I'm busy. I'm busy. A lot of stuff going on.

You know what we're working on? Bill McKeever wrote a book called In Their Own Words, and he compiled a list of quotes from the very beginning of Mormonism all the way till current time. And last time he published it was in 2016. It was 388 pages. We are working on a redo of that book, and it's going to be closer to 600 pages.

We have added so many quotes. I'm really excited about it. I've been working on it for months now, and hopefully in the next few months we'll have that out.

You know, Bill gave me the word doc, and I use it regularly. Well, you're going to like this one better because it's going to be fully updated. 2016 was the last time we added anything, so it's going to have a lot of different things online. It will have new conference talks, et cetera.

Yeah, I think it's the old one, but it's several hundred pages more, so I'm excited about this. Yeah, actually, oh, I forgot to turn something on. Yeah, there we go. I've been talking to some Mormons recently online, and just some feedback in real time kind of stuff, is that they're saying, if I'll quote them, for example, you know, Journal of Discourses, they say it's not official, or they'll quote various things, and they'll say it has to be official, from the official teaching, whatever it is.

I mean, put this bug in your guys' ears. Make it a thing where there's official level, official doctrines are taught. Yeah, that's a tricky thing. I like to use Spencer W. Kimball's book out on the street, handout copies of The Miracle of Forgiveness, and they'll say, oh, that's not official. Well, I always like to say, well, this guy was an apostle when he wrote it, the same position Paul was. He wrote it in 1969, Kimball did, and later became the 12th president of the church. And so let me understand, so what you're saying, then, is what he was teaching was false.

This is always a good question to ask. And they'll kind of stop there, and they'll go, well, yeah, he wasn't teaching correctly there. And they don't like what he's teaching, because he says you basically have to keep all the commandments and all the time, and latter-day things try to get away with that. And what I'll reply with then is, okay, so he was teaching false doctrine, so would you say he's a false prophet?

And they'll back off, and they'll go, no, no, no. I say, well, he backs everything up with your scripture. Do you have a better way of interpreting what he says, D&C 82-7 says, for instance? And so you'll just see them, you have to call them, it's kind of like playing poker.

You have to say, I want to see your cards. And you'll oftentimes find that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. They don't have much to go on, they just don't like what their leaders are saying, or what quote you're bringing out from the Journal of Discourses. And if he was a false prophet back when that was said in the Journal of Discourses back in the 1800s, then truth is not something that's relative.

It's for all times and all places in all events. I mean, if God has a body of flesh and bone, that's always going to be. Now, Latter-day Saints will believe that, but they won't believe Adam was God, even though it was taught by Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses Volume 1, page 50, that it was.

So it's just hard, it's a lot of gaming that goes on, but do you have a restored church with leaders that are speaking truthfully? That's the main question, and if they don't want to believe their own leaders, that's fine. They don't have to believe it, it's just that's what their leaders have taught. I like that. You know, it's good to implement some of those statements, because that's good. Yeah, I've been meeting a lot of guys who, well, not a lot, but more Mormons who are trying to become a little bit better at defending their stuff, and when something is bad that they don't like, they say, that's not official, doctor, we're not obligated to believe it. And then what I have to do is say, well, what do you believe? And I ask those series of questions, and then they aim and haw, and they end up confirming what the quotes are anyway. And it's a great tactic, and I think sometimes we try to talk too much.

I think asking the question like you're doing there is a perfect opportunity to let them play the defense. Let them go ahead, and you take the offensive role, that's how you're going to usually make points when you have the ball, and you have to define your terms when they say something like, well, we believe we're saved by grace. Okay, well, what does that mean? Well, saved by grace, and they'll hem and haw, and then they'll go to second in EFI 25-23, we go to Ephesians 2-8 and 9, but there's a difference. You're saved by grace after all you can do. Well, what does that mean, after all you can do? And so by asking those questions, as you've experienced there, I think that you're going to make them come out with what exactly it is that they believe. And you're right, oftentimes they're going to say the same thing their leaders are saying. They're just maybe going to try to say it in a nicer way.

Right, a less embarrassing way. I'll say, hey, is it true that your god used to be a man in the little world? Is that true? That's not official doctrine, we don't hold to that.

Right. What do you believe, you know? Or you could say, well, do you believe that Lorenzo Snow said that as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become. That first part there, God lived in another realm.

Can you help me explain that? Well, we don't know much about that. You certainly can tell, a Latter-day Saint can tell all about what will happen after in the future, but they don't know much about that, they'll say. But that's what your leaders have thought, that God was in another realm, a world, if you will, and that he had a god, and then that god had a god, infinite regression of the gods.

And so it really breaks down when you compare it to Isaiah chapters 40 through 48, and many other places in the Bible. Oh, yeah. I've been hearing now the knowledgeable ones, the smart ones are saying, there's only one god in all existence, all place, all time, that's Elohim. And they go, wait a minute, what about the intelligences? Are they eternal? Yes. Not an infinite number, but virtually, billions and billions, and they say yes.

And they're all equal? Yeah. It doesn't make any sense, but yeah. So this stuff, you know how it is. Yeah.

That's right. Hey, Matt, I'm calling to remind your listeners that you are going to Jordan November 3 through 14. This year, we're going to be flying through Jordan as a group from Chicago O'Hare, and this trip is open.

We still have nine spots available, and the price is going up by $200 on March 1. And so the price, you can check the website to find out the price, the itinerary, and all the rest. But it's found at 2025jordan.com, one word, 2025jordan.com. But you'll be on that trip just like you went last year to the Footsteps of Paul tour with me. The neat thing about this trip, though, is that Joel Kramer is going to be our guide. And if anybody does not know who Joel Kramer is, they need to go to Expedition Bible, it's two words, Expedition Bible on YouTube. Joel Kramer, in less than three years, has accumulated 800,000 plus subscribers to his archaeological channel.

He is amazing, he's written books, he's done a lot of digs. In fact, he just spent the last four weeks digging in Zoar, which is in Jordan, and we'll be going there as well. But we'll be going to Petra for an entire day, we're going to Mount Nebo, Sodom and Gomorrah, Bethany by the Jordan, Penny Ale, so many different places, you're going to learn your Old Testament in a way that you have never heard it before. And we'll be at the actual sites, many of the sites there will be nobody there. Oh, Petra there will be, because that's one of the most popular spots in that whole region. But we'll be going to sites where we'll be hiking and seeing things that most of your friends have never had a chance to see.

And you will read, like I said, the Bible in a different way in the Old Testament by going. So it's November 3 through 14, 2025. Joel Kramer is our guide. The website once more is 2025jordan.com, one word.

And if they have any questions, my email is there, they can certainly ask questions. But we only have a few spots left, and you already have eight people going with you who listen to you or your friends. So I'd love to have a few more Carmites come and join us. Yeah, it was a good trip.

It was the one we did last time with 19 days. And it was Turkey, Greece, and then Italy. And I've got to confess, what I do is I brag to people. I say, oh, I've been to Corinth, I've been to Thessalonica, I've been to Laodicea. And I tell them, yeah, I'm bragging. And it's a lot of fun. And we have good conversations that come out of that.

But, yeah. Well, you're going to have some places to brag on here. I mean, Petra, a lot of people have gone there. And if you haven't been, everybody needs to go to Petra one time. But to be able to go to the sites that we visit, like Lot's Cave, we're going to visit Zohar I just mentioned. We're going to go visit Sodom and Gomorrah, Jerash, Gadara. I mean, you might not know those places, but you're going to know them after. We also have a day that we're going to be experiencing with camels and other things like that.

When we go out to, well, what's the name? I can't remember the name of the place. But there's just a lot of different things going on that you will be able to experience. I mean, you know the story in Numbers chapter 23 in Balaam and the oracles that he gave. Well, that's at Bet Pior. We're going to be at Bet Pior where these oracles were given. Just places that we're not maybe very familiar with, but you'll be a lot more familiar when you actually go visit these sites.

Yeah. It is fun. I'm looking forward to going to Petra. I know it's going to be a long walk, but I'll be doing all my work.

There's a lot you can do. You can't see everything. It's like going to Yosemite.

You can only see certain things in one day, but we'll be there the entire day. I know the place I was thinking of, Wadi Rum. That is a place where we're in a, this is the old spice route where the Queen of Sheba used to, would come. And so it's an actual route.

And the Magi believe that they traveled this route as well. We'll be in this desert with these beautiful mountains there, Wadi Rum. We're also going to be a whole day, we're going to be out on the Red Sea on a boat. And we'll be there experiencing the Red Sea. So, you know, these are places most people have never gone to. And this is not a trip that I'm going to repeat with Joel.

He and I are doing this trip together. We went in 2023. It was a great success, but most likely this will be the last time. Now that Israel's reopened, that's where I usually, I only go once or twice a year, and that's where I like to focus.

So this will probably be the last time. So if anybody wanted to go, it's Joel Kramer. Man, 2025jordan.com.

I encourage you. Look at the website, by the way, on a desktop or laptop. The phone does not, it does not do the site justice.

It will mess the pictures up pretty badly. But you can see the itinerary there. You can see the pricing. You can see our flights out of Chicago. And people will be able to come in and out of Chicago that day, each the arrival and the departure.

So you won't have to spend any nights in Chicago. But, I mean, wow. This is so much fun. I'm looking forward to it.

It'll be fun. All right, there's a break, brother. Thanks, Matt. God bless you, my friend. Thanks. All right, bye.

All right. That's Eric. I've known him for, I don't know, 25 years or so. Great guy, does great tours. Hey, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. And so that's Eric, like I said, who was on before. He and Bill McKeever, they run mrm.org, mormonismresearchministry.org, and they're very, very, very, very knowledgeable on Mormonism way down there.

I mean, they really know their stuff. They have a great facility, too, in Sandy, Utah. I go down there every couple times a year, usually, hang with them and do stuff, stay with either one and go to dinner and do stuff.

But we've got no callers waiting right now, so I'm going to talk about this a little bit. The Jordan trip is going to be good. I've never been to Jordan, and it's safe. We're going.

We're going to have a good time. I've been to Turkey twice, Israel twice, Greece, and then Italy, and sing a lot of stuff. And it really is cool. You know, it's cool when you can read the book of Corinthians and you've been to the site. And Thessalonica, you've been to the site. It's just nice to see.

Seven Churches of Revelation. I've been there, and I really enjoy it. Plus, bragging rights. So, I will admit that I'm pretty shameful when it comes to that. You know, saying, hey, I've been in Qumran Cave 1, and I said it a couple nights ago to somebody. They're like, what? Really? I says, oh, yeah, yeah.

And just enjoy it. Anyway, if you want to check it out, it's 2025jordan.com. Check it out. I don't know how much the cost is. It's less than five grand for 12 days over there. We didn't talk about that.

You've got to get yourself to Chicago, and then from Chicago on out, and then back to Chicago. Twelve days. Everything's taken care of in there. Except for, I didn't ask him this, but I'm sure it's the same as it's always been.

Meals and everything are included except for lunch, and you buy your own lunch. One of the nice things that, you make friends on the trip, too. And so, one of the local guys came with me. I mean, he's a friend of mine. I've known him for a long time.

He was on this last trip. And we would just, for lunches, depending where we were, we'd just go someplace. Sometimes we'd walk down the street, go find something.

I remember we were in, I did this in Greece a couple of times. We were there for about a week, and he said, hey, why don't you do lunch? We'd be back at the hotel, maybe, or in the evening. We'll just take a walk and go down to the beach and find something to eat. It was fun. A lot of fun, a lot of fun, a lot of fun. Anyway, so there you go. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276.

Might as well get us some radio questions. Let's see what this says. Hey, Matt. I grew up in a church that teaches dispensationalism and have slowly come to the conclusion that eschatological view may just be one of the worst interpretations ever. Or there is. That's what he says. Yeah, I agree.

I don't think it's very good. Can you lay out what you believe as far as order of events? What prophecy is left to be fulfilled in your estimation? Thanks. And he's leaning towards partial preterism. I do, too. That's good.

So let's put a little bit of flesh and blood on this stuff. Dispensationalism is a view where it's a... Take a Bible and you put it on your table and then you put on these glasses. The glasses are dispensational glasses. What that means is the whole of the Bible, how God works, is in dispensations. He will work one way at one time and another way another time. So if I go to my website and I look up dispensationalism, I did an article a few years ago and I laid out some of the main views of dispensationalism.

For example, because there's broken up into seven parts, sometimes three, sometimes more. But at any rate, the age of innocence from Adam and Eve until they sinned, then God works with them a different way there than he would call the age of conscience from the first sin to the flood and then civil government, which is from the flood, after the flood there was government. And then from there to the time of Abraham to Moses is another view. And then the law and then grace across the millennial kingdom.

Anyway, they have these views. And I reject dispensationalism because of a very simple, I don't know how to describe it, a very simple something. You see, to me, God's word is it. When I say his word, I don't mean just the Bible and Jesus, but something else, that he keeps his word and he speaks his word. So in the Trinity, which is one God and three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons, the truth of their intercommunion, their perichordic relationship, they mutually indwell one another and they're the one being. The eternal covenant, Hebrews 13-20, and there's debates on that, what that exactly is, but I believe it's the covenant that the Trinity made within itself where the Father would send the Son who would then redeem us and the Holy Spirit would apply the redemptive work.

And the Father would elect and choose people in Christ, that's whom Jesus would redeem. This is based on an agreement, which is the word, a covenant. A covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties. And essentially, you can have a written one and a spoken one.

We've got a video one now, but a written one and a spoken one, the written one is just the written form of a verbal agreement. And so when God, he works, he works covenantally. He works by his word, by promising, by declaring, by speaking. So in the beginning was the word. The word was God, the word was God, the word became flesh.

And if you go to Genesis 1, in the beginning God said, let there be light. So God speaks and his word brings things forth. If he binds himself by his word, then there's nothing greater or equal to him that he's binding himself by. He's binding himself by his own declaration. So therefore, I look at the Bible through that, through covenant. A covenant is an agreement that God has made within the Trinity and or people. And that God works that way.

Dispensationalism, in my opinion, and there's a lot of brilliant dispensationalist people out there. They love the Lord, they're good people. What they do, in my opinion, is that they try and see patterns that God works and then divide the Bible up into those patterns and say this is how he works this way, during this time, this is how he works that way, and this time.

And I disagree. I say he works the same way through all of it. It's all based on the covenant relationship that God has established and given within the Trinity and that all of history, from the created order of the universe to the remaking of the universe, all of this is due to the covenant that he's made within the Trinity and all existence, all redemptive work, all governments, all prophecies, all law, all grace, all everything, is due to God's covenantal commitment. And when he binds himself by his word, it cannot be broken.

He cannot fail. It's just not possible. And so that's how I look at things. I think it's a better way and a deeper way.

In fact, not that all dispensationalists avoid covenant, but I'm starting to come of the opinion that covenant is a vital means of looking at Scripture to understand a lot of the issues there. And we've got a break coming up. There's the music. We'll be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, you can. All you have to do is dial 877-207-2276, and we can talk. All right, you know what I think I'm going to do, because nobody's waiting right now, I'm going to just teach you a little bit about covenant and dispensationalism.

This is useful. So covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. Now, let me explain something here. There are different kinds of covenants. So my wife and I have a covenant, a marriage contract. We bound ourselves when we stood up before people, before God, with each other, and we bound ourselves to each other by our word. We agreed to do the marriage vows and things like that.

We did it. And when I do weddings, I go over these with people and say this is what it means to be in a covenant. So check this out. There's an old pattern of covenant called the suzerain vassal treaty pattern. It's a covenant. And in that, the suzerain, a big king, would say to the lesser king, he'd say, here, this is what I've done, this is who I am, and these are the boundaries of the covenant we agree to do, the rewards and punishments. And if you go to the Ten Commandments in Acts 20, you'll see it.

It fits this pattern. I'm the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt. And he says, don't make any other gods.

He says, if you do, there's punishment coming. Verse 5. So a covenant in the suzerain vassal treaty pattern of the third millennium B.C. It has a, this is who I am, what I've done, and here's the boundaries of the covenant.

Here's the rewards for keeping them, and here's the penalty for breaking them. So you can find that by looking at the Ten Commandments. Furthermore, that would then mean that each tablet is ten and ten, not six and four, five and five, whatever it is that people like to break it up as. It's ten and ten.

And I've said this so many times over the radio. And the reason is because each party gets a copy of the covenant, the suzerain and the vassal. And in this case, the two tablets represent the duplication of the covenant requirements in the Ten Commandments.

They're both housed in the Ark of the Covenant, which is in the footstool of God, as well as in the presence of people. So it's a way that God binds himself covenantally by writing with his own hand the tablets that says this is what it is. This is what God is doing. And this is covenant.

That's not dispensation. It's covenant that God is doing this. And so he made a covenant with Adam, between God and Adam, where Adam would have everlasting life based on obedience.

But then he broke it. And then we have the new covenant made in the blood, where they're kicked out of the gardens and other stuff. There's a Noahic covenant, where God promised never to again destroy the earth by water. And also covenants have signs.

Adamic covenant's a tree. The way a covenant is the rainbow. The Abrahamic covenant, where God says to Abraham, we'll make a great nation and bless you, et cetera. That covenant sign is circumcision. The Mosaic covenant is where God would be covenantally faithful to Israel. And the covenant sign there is the Ten Commandment tablets. And the new covenant is between Christ and the church. And that covenant sign is the blood of Christ. So I'm just saying that there's interesting stuff about this, what covenant is. I can give it a lot. So let me just do a cursory kind of a simplified overview of the difference between dispensationalism and covenantalism.

And then we'll get to the color Nate. So in dispensationalism, generally speaking, these are generalities. These are generally how it works. It's not to say that everybody who's a dispensationalist believes every single point or vice versa with covenantalists. But normally speaking, in dispensationalism, the church began at Pentecost. But in covenantalism, the church began in Eden with the covering of Adam and Eve because that is where redemption occurred.

They were covered, and so therefore is prophetic of the blood of Christ, which is necessary for the church. The church being, in this context, the members of the body of Christ, those who are in Christ and those who are redeemed. So in dispensationalism, they say the church formally was formed with elders and pastors at Pentecost.

And both sides had their strengths. Dispensationalism would say the church is a mystery hinted at in the Old Testament. And in covenantalism, the church was spoken of in the Old Testament. When God prophesies, he'll pour his spirit upon all mankind. He'll prophesy.

He'll do various things. This is church language. In dispensationalism, the purpose of God is to gather a people for himself. And in covenantalism, the purpose of God is to glorify himself as revealed in Christ.

There's a difference there. In dispensationalism, Israel is the heir to the promise made to Abraham about the seed and blessing. And yet in covenantalism, true Israel as the church is the heir to the promise to Abraham. And remember, I'm not saying that if you're dispensationalist, you can't have a few covenantal leanings and vice versa.

These are generalities, like I said. In dispensationalism, participation in the Abrahamic covenant is mainly by biological descent. And in covenantalism, participation in the Abrahamic covenant is by faith. In dispensationalism, salvation is by faith in accordance with the revelation given in a particular dispensation. That's a critical part.

That's a critical thing. Salvation is by faith in the knowledge that you have in a particular dispensation or means by which God was working. So in the sacrificial system, salvation is by faith and the obedience possibly to other covenantal requirements. Now, some of this is creeping into modern day Reformed theology and some other areas where it's in covenant keeping as necessary for salvation. That means a heresy.

But that's another topic. Covenantalism would say salvation is by faith in the Messiah. Where in the Old Testament, saints looked forward to Christ and the New Testament was right there with him. But we look back to Christ. In dispensationalism, the Holy Spirit did not indwell people in all dispensations. But he only does during the Church Age. Now, that's a debatable issue. And there's some interesting theology behind that.

But this is just a simplified thing. But in covenantalism, the Holy Spirit has indwelt the believers in all periods. But indwells Christians as an anointing that gives gifts to the Church, etc. In dispensationalism, generally, Christ will reign in a literal 1,000 year period. Covenantalism generally holds to the idea that Christ is reigning right now. And some people say, no, he's not.

And I can show you the scriptures for that where he is. But dispensationalism would also say believers are not in Christ until the Church Age. That is simply false. If they say that no one's in Christ until the Church Age, that's a false teaching.

Believers are in Christ in all ages because they're in Christ from the foundation of the world of Ephesians 1.4. So, anyway, these are generalities. Now, some disabilities may come up and say, well, we don't exactly hold to that. We wouldn't word it this way and that way. That's fine. I'm always open to being refined and corrected by those who hold to those positions. I did my research, found out what that is, and I'm all the more confirmed as a covenantalist.

And that's just me. All right, let's get to Nate from California. Nate, welcome. You're on the air. Yes, I remember you. Uh-huh. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I thank you for the conversation we had last time. I just wanted to add a question.

This is a different question. This is about pre-tubulation and tribulations and there's a couple others. It's pre-, mid-, and post-trib, yes.

Yeah. I think I told you once that I was pre-tribalist, pre-tribalationist, but then I got into yours and I believe in both. You believe in both?

Or what is the main – for some reason, I'm not seeing anything wrong. Wait a second. I'm having trouble understanding you. Or am I – So you're saying you believe in both – wait, wait, hold on. You believe in both pre-trib and post-trib.

Is that what you're saying? No. Well, I – from what I see is tribulation from what you believe and what – pre-tribulation, what you told me, what exactly, and I – it was the same thing. I see nothing – you said at the end that there was something wrong with the pre-trib, but then I see yours and there's nothing wrong with it here. Okay. I'm having trouble understanding you, but do you have a specific question, though? Okay.

The question is, which one is the most correct? Another one. Or what people might believe. Oh, which is the most topical. Yeah.

Yeah. In their opinion, it's post-trib rapture, but others would say in their opinion it's pre-trib rapture. So, I think that each group and each people, each person needs to look at it themselves in scripture and come up with that view that they think is most biblical. It's certainly possible I could be wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. Just like the – I hope the pre-tribbers would say it's possible they're wrong, but they don't think they're wrong, and that's fair.

But I hold to post-trib rapture, absolutely, because I do not see any pre-trib escape thing going on. Oh, there's a break. Okay.

I knew it. Oh, all right. We can get through it. You got it.

I can show you some verses and stuff like that in the scriptures and show people stuff a lot of times. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. I hope you want to stay and listen to the conversation. Man, I'm really shocked. It's the last several of the hour already. Wow.

Anyway, time flies. We're having fun. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show, and I hope you're still listening here. I hope you are. Of course, if you're not listening to me because you're gone, you wouldn't be saying yes. Let's get back on with Nate from California. Nate, welcome.

You're back on the air. Okay. Yeah.

Well, thank you. Do you know I asked you this question because for some reason I saw Tim LaHaye, and I think he's pre-Tribulations. Yeah. Or I don't know any other movie that Christ came and people disappeared in airplanes and crashes.

Yeah. From the movie, for some reason it doesn't... I don't want to read it like it says in the Bible somewhere, or am I correct?

I'm not sure how to answer the question because I'm not sure what the question was. I've not seen a particular movie, but I don't affirm pre-Trib rapture because the Bible doesn't, in my opinion, doesn't teach it anywhere. Well, I mean, you have a lot of books on it. Yeah, I've read those things. I've read those, and in my opinion- Did you agree with them?

No, I've gone through some pre-Trib stuff, and the arguments in my opinion are exceedingly weak. They're inferences drawn from analogies or just inferences where they might do something like, the people of Egypt, the Jews, were gotten out of Egypt. They're protected. The plagues hadn't hit them, so that's like a symbol of God's removal and the rapture. I'll say, but they were in the midst of the plagues. They were protected in it. Yeah.

So, stuff like this. These are some of the arguments I've been presented, and another one is 1 Thessalonians 5.9, for God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation. They'll say the pre-Tribulation or the tribulation period is the wrath of God, and so we're not destined for that. They just didn't read the context of what 1 Thessalonians 5.9 says. For example, it says in verse 8, but since we are that of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation to our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with him. And so, wrath is not pre-Tribulation period of seven years. It's damnation, because that's what they're talking about. The hope of salvation is mentioned in verse 8, verse 9, and that we're going to be together with him.

This is salvation. So, the Jewish mind often would juxtapose. We're not appointed for wrath, but for salvation. And so, they'll take verses like this, and they'll say, see, that means pre-Tribulation or rapture, and it doesn't.

It doesn't. In fact, Jesus says after the tribulation of those days, when it gets really bad, and when it's bad stuff, which they say is the second half of the seven-year tribulation. The first half is really good stuff. You know, it's peace and prosperity. But in Matthew 24, Jesus said, when you see the abomination, when you see these problems, you see this, you see that, run for the hills, things like that, he said, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be coming in the clouds and gather his elect. And they'll say, well, that's, you know, they have these, then they break it up into two returns of Christ. Well, there's a kind of a half return for the rapture. You go meet him in the clouds, you go disappear, and go back up. But it never says that, you go meet him in the clouds and go back up. It says there's going to be one return of Christ in the clouds is exactly how he's said to return.

And it's just one occurrence. So the more I study this, the more I'm convinced that the preacher of rapture is just weak. And then they'll say, two men in the field, one is taken, one is left.

People say that's the preacher of rapture. And when you read the context, it's not the wicked. It's not the good who are taken, but the wicked. And I've shown this to people 100% of the time, for years and years and years, when I show people, just read the context, I compare Matthew 24, Luke 17, where it's the parallels of two men in the field, one is taken. I said, let's go look at that. 100% of the time they said, oh my goodness, you're right, it's the wicked who are taken. Not a single time has someone maintained that it's the good who are taken.

It's not a big deal. I could write a booklet. I've got so much to do, but I could do a booklet or a video on why I believe in this.

I need a video on that. May I ask one more thing? The president that we have, even though I'm against what his Christian thing is, because he goes to a woman pastor. Yeah, it's un-biblical.

Follow that. Yeah, a lot of things that he says are un-biblical. He's not a theologian, he's a politician and a businessman, so I filter things through. In other words...

He's ignorant about a lot of things biblically. What you believe is, because I don't even know if I'm through with tribulation, I'm just waiting for the Lord to come to appear, if I'm here. But following is a true word, of course. But will we be here, if you're not a Christian, to take the mark, or do you, your belief is, I don't know, if your belief is that we will be already in heaven? When what happens? Oh, with the Lord. When what happens? When the false, the antichrist comes. Oh, no, we'll be here.

The church will be here. Absolutely. You believe that? Absolutely. I believe that.

Absolutely. You believe that? The idea... You believe that? There's nothing in the scripture that says we're going to escape it. That if you don't take the mark, they'll crucify you or whatever, they'll cut your head off. The Christian church... You believe that?

Hold on, hold on, hold on. The Christian church has been persecuted throughout the centuries in every country, every nation, except the United States, but it's starting to become more of a persecution issue. So a lot of times what people will say is, God loves you so much, they serve the blonde hair, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus image, that he's going to get you out of here, everything's going to be great because he has a wonderful plan for your life. Tell that to the people in Nigeria who are stomped to death or shot with AK-47s by Muslims as they're in their villages in a church gathering and then they come in in motorcycles and shoot them and kill them or kidnap their pastors or kidnap their women and then say, oh yeah, Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life.

Just ask them in your heart and everything will be fine and then people who want to say you'll get more money and more of this, more of that. This kind of stuff is just, it's a farce, it's a joke that is predominantly in America because we're so wealthy and so people have just, I want to say certain words but I can't say it over the radio, but they've really done a bad job of executing scripture and they've led a lot of people astray that the Christian church is under great persecution throughout history. In Iran, it's growing under persecution and in China it's growing as well. And in Indonesia it's growing, the Christian church is growing and it's growing by leaps and bounds in those areas but here in America it's not, it's less than that.

A lot of people say because it's, so many countries have been found and written in the Bible but except the USA, even though there have been of course a lot others that haven't been found. I'm sure, I may be having difficulty understanding what you're saying, so it's hard to respond. Okay, you're going to have to excuse me because since I'm epileptic and I have a thing in my chest.

No. That's okay, I understand. Yeah, I know.

I remember. I'm not a big slower. I just sometimes it's hard.

Yeah, I'm a big slower. That's alright. That you believe that we will, that people will be here, still here, waiting for Christ to come and a horse, if I'm correct. And that's the only animal they have, do you believe it won't be animals? Animals don't be animals in heaven, do you believe?

I don't know, I don't think so. I don't know of any case where animals are in heaven but they seem to be on the new earth. Okay, so the new earth seems to be the case.

How? I don't know of any scriptures that says animals are in heaven but might be there, I just don't know. Okay. The new earth, well that's not true. Revelation, I haven't, well the only thing I can do is just keep on being a Christian and wait for your coming or your death because you never know but always be prepared. Like I always do, tell everybody, pray without ceasing.

Yes. As the saying goes, you pray for pre, prepare for post, that's what you do. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I'm glad that you and I both agree on just to be ready. That's right, be ready. To be ready and can I ask you also, the magazine that you said that people research, I have that. The what? I research? I have that magazine. What magazine? Yeah.

It's not the CRI, it's the Christian Research Institute or Institute of Research, yeah I have also, yeah I also have the books on the five animals of the world is born and I like it. I would like to know if you could recommend me some. Well do you have another question though?

Do you have another question? Yeah, yes, if you can recommend me some magazines. Magazines? I don't have any magazines that I recommend because I just don't read them. I read books on Kindle and stuff on my computer program and I just research that way so the only magazines I might read would be sci-fi ones.

Even then I get those online because I like sci-fi, that's it. So sorry about that, but that's how it is for me. No, it's alright, I read your, I'm on your computer thing on your web, yeah the column, I like it a lot. Well that's what it's for man, we're trying to raise the funds to do a revamp and get ahead of the new tech curve that's coming and how AI is, stuff like that. So I've got a proposal in hand, I'm trying to do some stuff and I'm glad you like the site, it's 29 years old and we hope it'll be around a lot longer, okay?

Calm.org, yeah. We've got to go because we're about out of time here, we've got like 20 seconds. Alright, well you're on my side and we're both together, God bless. Alright, well it was Nate from California and we've got about 10 seconds before the music starts. I hope you're enjoying the show, just remember that if you're interested in that trip to Jordan with me and others in November of this year, just go to 2025jordan.com and you can check it out. It's great, I've done these trips with Eric many times and they're always good, they're always worth it and you always come back on, I'm glad I went. Anyway, may the Lord bless you by his grace, we'll be back on here tomorrow and we'll talk to you then.