Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. And you're listening to Matt Slick live. If you want to give me a call, it's easy.

877-207-2276. I had a good weekend. Uh, I did a lot of learning this weekend. I did some studies. I may share that with you on the radio here. It's, uh, it's actually kind of interesting.

Some of the stuff I've been studying recently, but, um, uh, if you also want, you can give me an email, send an email to me. That's easy. Just direct your email to info info at KARM.org, info at C A R M dot O R G. And, uh, you can, um, let's put the subject line, radio comment, radio question, and then we can get to, uh, the stuff that we got in fact, I don't know if Laura's putting in, uh, radio questions in there for today's date.

I don't know. I'll look at that. And, uh, we have a lot of emails that people have sent to us.

So I get to do that as well. Um, so I'll tell you a couple of things. Uh, this weekend, uh, was interesting for me in that, um, uh, so as you know, uh, I, I debate, uh, and, and kind of teach slash debate, kind of engage under what the right word would be, uh, with people in Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, uh, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, et cetera. And something interesting occurred in, uh, one of the discussions that I had with the Roman Catholics. I'm gonna get my notes out because, uh, now I'm sure, I'm sure that others have thought of this. I'm sure others have thought of this, but for me, it was been something I've been just kind of thinking about, uh, just trying to, to put it together in words and, um, uh, and in a good order to make it make sense.

And it did on, um, I think it was Saturday night, Saturday night, Friday night, it doesn't matter. And, um, so we're having this discussion with Roman Catholics and I've been saying this for a while, this one thing that the Roman Catholic church and these Orthodox church, they both are so similar each, uh, by some of the Catholics this time, each have a false gospel, a false priesthood and a false Mary. Now, the false gospel I've talked about numerous times, a false Mary I've talked about numerous times, but I hadn't talked about their false priesthood.

And so I did. I had done an article, uh, where I was examining the issue of, uh, the Roman Catholic priesthood. And I found that, uh, well, the Roman Catholic priesthood is not in the Bible.

It's very simple, very easy to, to, uh, to verify, but it's just, it's just not there. And so as I was talking to, uh, the Catholics, I said, look, there is no Roman Catholic style priesthood in the new Testament. It doesn't exist. It's just not there. There's no mention in the new Testament of the mass that is continually offered by, uh, by Catholics and by which, you know, by the priest, by which they're then repeatedly cleansed. There's no new Testament priesthood that's passed down from the apostles. Um, it's just not there. I said, if the repetitious offerings of the mass is critical to salvation, why is it not found in the new Testament? Now you've got to think about this because, uh, the Roman Catholic priest offers the mass regularly and it only temporarily cleanses you of sin, just like the old Testament animal sacrifices. And when you look in the new Testament, you don't find that I'll go into it a little bit.

You find something interesting is something quite different. Actually I was talking about this. So the, how do I say this?

This is the right way. The Roman Catholic priesthood is modeled after the old Testament covenant style priesthood that involves repeated offerings of sacrifices where the priests mediated between God and man. And they had to do this because the, this is because the old covenant, uh, their repeated sacrifices did not cleanse once and for all.

And so they had to go through and offer us the repeated sacrifice. Now that's not what the new Testament says. It's not that that way in the new Testament at all. And let me go through some of the verses that I was researching. I'm still putting a lot of it together.

Learn how to articulate it better. But, uh, something that's very interesting that I have to look at and I ha I saw this over the weekend, I was reading through Hebrews going, wait a minute, that is really interesting. And as Hebrews 8.4, now, if he, yes, Jesus were on earth, he would not be a priest at all.

And I have to figure out why that's the case. And I think I have an idea has to do with the priestly. I'm just going to be with the heavenly tabernacle, but I have to research it some more. And Hebrews 8.6 says, Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. Now, the old covenant is when they had to, the priest had to continually offer sacrifices and the new covenant, only one sacrifice is offered once. That's the sacrifice of Christ. So the new Testament priesthood is held by Jesus alone in heaven and only one sacrifice was offered one time. The sacrifice of Christ. Yet the, the Roman Catholic priesthood is celebrated repeatedly and it only temporarily cleanses you of all your sins.

It has to be offered over and over and over. This is the old Testament priesthood. This is the old Testament priesthood. It's not the new Testament priesthood, period. The old Testament priesthood style is that of Roman Catholicism, which means they're back under the law because they do not have the single high priest sacrifice of Christ that cleanses once for all. Let me go through some more of these, these verses.

Uh, this is the first time I'm really saying this, this way if you're doing some research. So in Hebrews 10, 10 it said by this, uh, will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all. In Hebrews 10, 11, every priest stands daily ministering and offering, uh, and offering time and time, time after time, excuse me, the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. Now the Catholic might respond and say, well, the mass does take away sin, you know, just for up to that point. Then you got to take it again because you commit sins each time. So the Roman Catholic mass doesn't represent Christ's sacrifice. It does not represent Christ's sacrifice because Christ's sacrifice cleansed of all of our sin.

So let me write this down, because this is important. Christ's sacrifice cleansed us permanently once for all. And, uh, it was in Colossians 2.14 that, uh, he canceled the sin at the cross, not when you repeatedly get baptized or repeatedly take the mass. So this is, uh, this is really significant.

Okay. So I'm going to apply this later to the Eastern Orthodox priesthood because they did basically the same thing. Now, for by one offering, Jesus has perfected for all time, those who are sanctified. Now that's a critical verse. By one offering he did it for all time, but yet in the Catholic church, it's not for all time. That's, that's critical. Uh, it's not for all time because they had to take the mass regularly and if they have to take it regularly, it's not sufficient to cleanse us all time, is it?

So, uh, this is really important stuff that, you know, I've been going through and thinking about and researching and, um, uh, I think it's interesting anyway. So, uh, Hebrews 10, 16 says, uh, 16, 17, 18, this is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I'll put my laws upon their heart and on their mind I will write them. He then says, and their sins and their lawless deeds, I'll remember no more. Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there's no longer any offering of sin.

Ooh, that is critical. There's no longer any offering for sin, but yet the Catholic church offers it over and over again. So, uh, it's just, it's ridiculous. So anyway, as I was coming through this, uh, looking at this, uh, so there's no Roman Catholic style priesthood in the New Testament. There's no mention of the New Testament in the New Testament of the mass that is continually offered.

There is, uh, no priesthood that is passed down from the apostles because a priesthood is the Old Testament economy. Uh, that's really important. Uh, and so I'm writing as I'm talking because sometimes when I talk, these things just come out better than what I've written because it's how it works. So that's why I write this up. This is how I learned.

You know, I learned by teaching, I learned by putting things together. And I think it's really, uh, really interesting to, uh, to go through this. And I'm seeing more and more how the priesthood of the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox churches are just simply ungodly, unbiblical. And, uh, they demonstrate the lack of conversion and the, they are back under the Old Testament law. It's not a true priesthood. True priesthood.

It is bad, bad, bad. Let's get to Chuck from North Carolina. Chuck, welcome in.

You're on the air. Good evening. Uh, I've never heard a Catholic say it was the mass that God gave them forgiveness. I was Catholic for about the first 28 years of my life.

I'm now 82 and still recovering. I heard a lot of those lies and I looked up at what it actually said in the Bible. And I would love to sit down with the Pope and show him in the Bible, where he's wrong. The Catholic priest actually says in the confessional, you come in and say, uh, press me for I have since been 20 weeks or months or whatever, since the last confession. And you give a litany of your sins. He then says, I absolve you of all your sins and here's your penance.

And he tells you what to say. And the real abomination is one of the things they tell you to say is a rosary. And I don't know if you're familiar with the rosary, but a rosary has the crucifix and you say the apostle's creed of the crucifix. And then on the, uh, the next thing you say, a large prayer, three hail, Mary's another large prayer. And then you go 10 hail, Mary's a large record. So you say a total of six Lord's prayers and a total of 53 hail Mary's. And the hail Mary starts off with the first part is a quote from the Bible hail Mary full of grace, Lord's with the, but then it goes, you know, and it says best are that among women, best is approved that when Jesus, but then the second part is a real abomination, holy Mary, mother of God, pray for our centers now. And at the hour of our guests. Amen.

Hey, I'm, I'm loving this taking notes. Could you repeat that? I've not been, uh, never a Catholic, but, uh, you said 53 times, they say the hail Mary.

Yeah. 53 times you say this hail Mary. And it starts off with a quote, you know, when the angel appeared to Mary, but then it finishes up with holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen. And they say that 53 times, the Lord's prayer only five times in your apostle creed once. So that's what they call a rosary.

Okay. Let's let me get this straight. I have to say the Lord's prayer five times. So this is a, is this an after a confession? Oh, wait, hold on. I got a break. No, hold on. Check. I want to, I want to get this down. I want you to tell me the steps again. I'm writing them down because I want to get this down.

I need to do research on this as well, because it's gonna be related to it. So hold on, buddy. Hey folks, you want to give me a call?

The number is 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. I want to welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is easy. 877-207-2276. Let's get back on with Chuck from North Carolina and better.

Are you still there? Yes, sir. All right. So let me get this straight. Okay.

This is one of the things I've been wanting to see and to learn, but I can't go into a confessional and do all this stuff. So I have to take it from sources of people who've been there. Okay. So to be forget of your sins, you confess to a priest. That's the first thing, right?

Right. And then he says, I'll be with all your sins. And then he gives you this penance that you're supposed to say that supposed to compensate for the things you did wrong. I was never assigned to do a whole rosary. I suppose I wasn't real bad, but they might say, say five our fathers and 10 Hail Marys. That's the sort of thing that they tell you to do. And you're supposed to go out and sit in the church and say those prayers before you leave.

And then you walk out totally clean record until next Saturday. Okay. Wow.

Then you would count all your errors of the week or again. Okay. Okay. So, uh, so it can vary. So confess your sins to a priest.

I know that he absolves you of all of your sins because he's, yeah. Right. And they give you something. What's that? Right. What was that? He wants to have a statement.

What was that? Uh, he said, he actually says, I absolve you of all your sins, but then the penance is supposed to be your part and make it up for your sin. I think he's penance to do to now this is to make up for your sins. Right. Kind of make things better than God. Right with God. Yes. Yeah. I've heard them talk about this.

There are different ways and they have different ways of talking about it. Right. So, uh, it might be, uh, something like five, uh, our fathers and 10 hail Mary's. Okay. Right.

But it could be more. Oh yeah. Okay.

Okay. And, uh, so what's this print of the rosary 53 times and what was that? Well, the rosary, you know, it's a bunch of beads with a crucifix hanging down on that little extension for one.

It's a circle and then has an extension about four inches long. And at the end of that, it's a crucifix, which is the cross with Christ still on it. And on that extension, there are two, our fathers with three hail Mary's in between. And then as you go around the circle, there are 10 hail Mary's, one of our father, 10 hail Mary's, one of our father all the way around.

That's a complete rosary. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I may get one of those. It's an order one.

Just I can have it and use it for illustrations. Um, yeah, I've heard that before out of the beads and the rosary, what it is. So, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Which is interesting because one of the neat things is the way the, they, uh, mess up their own thoughts. For example, they call her queen of heaven and that they read, uh, Ezekiel and chapter seven, I think we're good at 21. And they explain the queen of heaven. That's his star. They talk about praying to the queen of heaven and he's telling them a quick prayer and they say, Oh no, because the laws would give offerings to the queen of heaven.

Everything goes well for us. And that's a Catholics call Mary, the queen of heaven. Don't even read the Bible. Oh no, they don't.

Yeah. I had a Jeremiah. When I was in, uh, in school, I went to Catholic schools all the way through 12 years and they, we were told not to read the Bible.

We were not smart enough to understand it properly. We were supposed to listen to the priests who had been educated on telling us what it said with them. When I got older and got a Bible and I started finding out it didn't say what they said and they didn't say a lot of what it did say. So I started reading between the lines and I ended up teaching Sunday school for over 40 years trying to undo the wrong that had been done to me.

She just finished school aware. Oh, I've taught some different Christian churches, three different churches last one, 35 years. I was retired because I lost my sight. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I do one every fifth Sunday on a topic I can research on my own. And I use Alexa and I said no to my wife and she writes it down so that I could call on that for the class.

Okay. You know, there's a trick for memorizing stuff. Do you know about it? It's called the link method.

You ever heard of that? The link method. There's a, uh, from, you know, you're blind, but you have memories of a room for example, or you can apply objects in a room, a certain order of things, you know, like 20 objects and you have to know those objects naturally so that you've lived there, touched them, whatever. So that when you go in that room, you know exactly where everything is. It's just, that's the map.

And then with number one, okay, well we are teaching, this is what I do sometimes is I'll do a link method, but you associate one concept with the first object and then you move to the second object and you associate something with it. And the more ridiculous the association is, the better it works. You know? Yeah. Easier to remember. Yeah.

Right. Like the queen of heaven. Can I make another comment? Yeah, please do. What were you going to say about queen of heaven? Go ahead.

Oh no, no. I was gonna say you could use like the queen of heaven would be a crown, you know, an object one, you know, with Mary sitting there, you know, singing on the throne and number two might be whatever. And then you could put verses with it.

There's ways to, to memorize verses too, but by using, uh, numbers associated with, uh, with objects too. That's more complicated. But anyway, go ahead. Right.

Sorry. Well I usually only do about 10 verses and they're all associated like with faith and then I have a discussion on it and then Tom, you know, my part, what I think of me, what I want to make a comment on, I turned on late one night last week and I think you were talking about, uh, when, when Jesus on the cross said, my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? Uh, yes. Did you discuss that last week? Yes, we did.

Uh, I have a very strong opinion on that. I think if you'll hear me out, uh, Jesus was calling attention to Psalm 22. At the time that David wrote Psalm 22, he was in the depths of despair. And if you read through Psalm 22, you actually get a description of some of the scene of the, uh, the crucifixion. And then as you get to the end of Psalm 22, he comes out of the dark end into a bright place and then go right on Psalm 23. So if you read Psalm 22 and Psalm 23 together, to me, it's clear, that's what Jesus was saying.

Even though this is a horrible situation that I find myself in, when you find yourself in a similar situation, essentially remember there's light at the end of the tunnel. So I think he very deliberately called our attention to that Psalm. So we learned that lesson. Oh, I like that. Thank you. That's good. Good for you. I love learning. I love being, uh, told new things. I have to listen to Alexa.

Most of the radio preachers aren't that good anymore, or they say silly stuff that they're either in their entertainment, not enlightened. Right. Yeah. Yes, I agree. Well, thank you. And, uh, Lord bless you.

And, uh, I'm looking forward to meeting you in heaven. Oh, me too. Thank you. God bless. Okay. God bless.

All right. Well, that was interesting call. I love that. Um, I love that. I love what people who have been there can say, this is what happens.

I love that. Now there's the music. So we're going to take the break and then we'll get back to, uh, Bob from Nebraska on Catholic confession and then Patrick, uh, from North Carolina as well on election. So we'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned. We'll be right back.

Bob from Nebraska. Bob welcome. You're on the air. Well, thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. I was just interested in that last call that you had from the gentleman who, uh, says he's left the Catholic church and wanted to talk a little bit about confession and stuff.

So I thought I'd give you a call cause I'm still in the Catholic church and have probably a lot more recent experience with stuff like that than somebody who's left the church decades ago. Sure. Okay. So can I ask you questions then?

And just tell me what you can. Yeah. And I might ask you a few too, but yeah, go ahead. That's sure. That's fine.

I know that's why you call to talk about questions. So, uh, the kit, your sins forgiven, you have to go to Catholic priest in confession. Is that right?

No, not, not, uh, not for all sins, but for, um, you know, for the mortal sins, for the deadly sins, you certainly do need the sacrament of reconciliation. Yeah. So this is for mortal sin, right? Yes.

Yep. So you confess to a priest, right? Then he absolves you of all your sins. And, uh, well, it's really, it's really Christ doing the absolution. You know, the, the priest is just part of the sacrament process.

Um, just the representative on earth. It was actually the power given to the priest clear back in John 21, 23, um, where Christ came into the upper room and, and gave the first edition of the apostles, the, the authority to forgive. I've argued that I argue that countless times with Catholics have to set them straight on what the Greek actually says, but that's on their topic. So then, uh, then, uh, he gives you penance to, to, uh, to do what the penance is just to, uh, kind of rearrange yourself toward, uh, back toward God. Cause you've come into, in order to make a good confession, you have to be, um, sorry for your sins.

Um, uh, and so you come in with a sorrowful request to be forgiven. And because these sins are serious and you can confess venial sins as well, the non deadly sins as well. Um, but, uh, any sin you confess or any sin you commit harms your relationship with God.

It's kinda like, uh, just in our human relationships, rupturing our relationship, somebody else. Um, so then in order to rebuild that relationship, we need to get back into prayer and, and, um, so it's just basically rearranging that your sins are already forgiven. You don't have to do the penance to get the sins forgiven.

Um, it is, uh, but it's something that is healthy to do is to return to prayer. Then why is penance given? Um, for that reason, so that it says, okay, you know, your sins and actually the sins are forgiven before you do the penance. Um, but then it's, it's this reminder to you.

So you can't just walk out of here and act like none of this ever happened. Um, you need to make sure that you, uh, go back in and start repairing your relationship. Um, and actually it's repairing your own heart cause God loves you just as much as he did before you committed the sins. But, um, but it's really repairing your own heart.

Okay. So, uh, isn't that penance though? Paragraph 1446 offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification, right? By your penance, right?

Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's that conversion. It's that process of conversion that follows the forgiveness of sins. So the penance, the things that you do helps recover the grace of justification. So you get that grace back through penance, right?

Um, it naturally, cause we're human condition. I mean, if it's, so for instance, if I went to confession and felt like all I had to do was, uh, you know, just go in there and say, here's what I've done, give me my, give me my forgiveness so I can go out and basically continue the life the way that I was leading it, that caused me to fall into sin. Um, then, you know, that would fall it probably into the new center presumption, but, um, but it wouldn't do you any good.

So, and it'd actually be harmful. So this act of penance, um, which is usually a couple of prayers to be honest with you. And in my experience, most priests, um, we'll just have you say, you know, they're our father or meditate on scripture or maybe a couple of hail Mary's or something like that is, is pretty standard for most priests, um, in confession. So it's very minimal, but it's just that, you know, just getting you back facing toward God, working toward him.

Okay. And then, uh, you have to do the say, hail Mary's. Is that what the priest gives you to do too? It depends on the priest. So some priests will, um, you know, say, okay, now go back and say, uh, to hail Mary's to our fathers or something like that. Uh, some will do things like, um, you know, like if you make the confession right before a mass, um, they'll ask you to meditate on the gospel, uh, or one of the readings or something like that sometimes, and to offer the mass, you know, for the people who you send against. So you might, um, offer up your mass for, you know, uh, somebody that you offended in committing that sin, if it was against another person. Um, and so the really dependence can be a lot of different things.

And oftentimes it's specific to the type of things that you just confessed. Okay. Um, so, uh, okay.

So interesting. I'm not trying to argue too much with you. Cause I certainly could, but, uh, well, you'd lose, but go ahead, you know, okay.

Ooh, what a nice challenge. Well, let me ask you some questions then, right here. Jesus is God, right? Right. He sure is. Does he have all authority in heaven and earth? He does. He did. He say in John 14, 14, ask me anything in my name and I will do it.

Yep. So if you were to ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins and you meant it, you're sincere. Will he forgive you of all of your sins?

I believe he will. Yeah. Then why do you need a priest to absolve you of your sins? And you can go straight to Christ.

Who's the one mediator of first Timothy two, five, because in John 21 through 23, uh, or excuse me, John 21, 19 through 23, Christ specifically laid out the sacrament of reconciliation. And so he's given us a specific mechanism in scripture to follow that if you wish to avail yourself of it, you're wise to do so. Cause I take God on his word and do as well. I think you're mistaken. When I don't, I got the sacrament of confession to come back to. Okay.

Yeah. You're mistaken about John 20, 23. Have you ever looked at it in the Greek to see what it actually says? Well, in fact I have, cause I've, I've heard you, I've heard your explanation of it before and it doesn't, it doesn't jive. It doesn't make sense. So is it the case that it says if you forgive the sins of any, that it's in the aorist active voice, right?

Is it, that is it or isn't it is the whole, is the whole thing is, is all of, uh, you know, 19 through 23 is it all in the aorist form? No, I didn't ask that. I said, if you forgive the sins of any, you forgive as the aorist with past tense, right? Well, you know, I don't. Okay.

It is. And then they have been forgiven your sins have been forgiven is the switches from aorist active to pass to perfect passive, which is a past continued action of the present that you receive the action of. Okay. So it's like saying, if you forgive the sins of any, if you, if you did, if you forgave them their sins already have been forgiven because it's in the past.

Let me ask you a question. If a priest, let's say in his authority, cause he has the authority of God, as you guys say, and he not, not on purpose, but you know, he's a human, he makes mistakes. He mistakenly, uh, offers forgiveness, uh, to someone who really in this case, shouldn't be okay. Is God obligated to forgive them because the priesthood? Well, I'm not sure if you understand the sacrament well enough to, to ask that question. Cause the priest can not make a mistake. It's the person who is making the confession that has to come in with a contrite heart, be sorry for their sins and firmly, um, intend not to commit those sins. Again, if the person comes in with those, with, with that on their heart and that on their, in their will, then the, you know, the forgiveness is, is from God and it's done.

The priest is simply a conduit there. Now the priest really can't make a mistake in that situation cause God knows what's on the person's heart. So if the person comes in and secretly say is not sorry for their sins, but says, you know, has the demeanor of somebody that, that is and says it, um, the priest as a human being doesn't know, um, you know, if that person, um, is in that case deceiving them, then that person has robbed themselves of the forgiveness because God knows their heart.

Okay. So yes, if the person is not sorry for their sins, the priest forgiving them doesn't occur, right? Even if that's right. And if the priest knows, so then, so then sometimes a person will come in and say, I'm not even sorry for this father. Then the priest won't forgive them.

Yeah. This is what Catholics do a lot. And when I ask those very direct question, they go on and on and on to different directions. I notice this a lot. They want to explain everything. Just responding to what you said, but go ahead. No, no, you didn't. It's just a simple answer to simple questions.

See if the person's not sorry for the sins, the priest forgiving them, the forgiveness does not occur. That's correct. Right? Yeah. Yep. That's right. So then how was the priest forgiving them out of his authority?

Because you go back to John 20, 21 through 23. And, and so let's look at that a little closer. That's it. We're looking at it. The music's going here.

I think about this before we get back to the break. You said that the, he has the authority to forgive the heiress path active means he's doing the action of forgiving. That's what the Greek is saying. If you forgive heiress active voice, he's doing the forgiving.

So then you're saying when he does the forgiving, he's not doing the forgiving if the person isn't right. Hold on. We'll be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Bob. Bob, you're still there.

I am Matt. So I, I have a question for you. So you want to talk about basically the first half of verse 23, which is in John 20. Um, if you forgive the sins of any there forgiven. So you're saying that those sins that they have for that they will forgive, we're already forgiven back on the cross. So Christ is just saying, you're acknowledging the forgiveness of sins.

Good job. Is that kind of your interpretation of that? Yes, basically. Uh, yes, because Jesus canceled the certificate of debt at the cross, Colossians 2, 14, not when you make confession, not when you get baptized.

Yeah. But, but you also need to read the rest of that sentence then, which says if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. So what sins, uh, were retained by Christ? Uh, none were retained. That's right.

By elect. So did he just misspeak there in the second half of that sentence? So, uh, no, if you look from your perspective, that would be a problem from the Protestant perspective. It's not a problem. It is a problem from the Protestant perspective because you're saying because of the way you interpret Greek, the, the first half of that sentence says they're already forgiven. So it's not, he's not really given the apostles the authority to do anything for him. They're just acknowledging that he's already forgiven the sins under your theology. Well, then you have to apply that same to the second half of that sentence and it takes a legs out from your interpretation under your theology. It's not what I said though. You didn't listen.

I specifically use a different word, but you didn't pick up on it. Colossians 2, 14 says the sin debt is canceled. I didn't say they were, weren't forgiven. If sin debt's canceled, we're justified when we believe forgiveness is something that is a now and not yet issue theologically. Don't know if you know what that is, but let's take a look at this.

Let's I'll show you. But because of John 20, just look at 21 through 23, it, it can be a now, but let's look at it. And unfortunately Protestants don't believe in that. And so they walk around potentially with serious sin on their hearts.

Let's look at it. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven. So you already said if a priest forgives them, but you said a priest can't make mistakes, make any mistake about this, which is ridiculous because then you're saying, let me finish. You're misstating what I said. So you're finished. Hold on, let me finish. Let me finish. Make a point.

Jesus is a standard based on a false premise. Okay. Look, look, why don't you be polite and wait on done with a statement and deal with the statement instead of constantly interrupting.

Can I say something right before you say your next word then? Okay. Because you have misstated what I said earlier. I didn't say the priest cannot make mistakes. I said that in the confessional, there's a specific understanding of the sacrament of reconciliation, which you as a Protestant justifiably don't, don't fully grasp.

So he can't make a mistake in the confessional. Okay. He, he can, but he cannot. You just said he cannot forgive a sin in the confessional. Okay. Oh, he cannot mistakenly forgive a sin. That's right. Mistakenly forgive a sin.

So then, uh, it's not possible for him to make a mistake in this regard. That's isn't that, isn't that a logical fallacy when you, when you take something that is a specific statement and paint it with a broad brush, Bob, Bob, I'm going with what you're saying. I'm taking notes. Literally.

I type very quickly. I'm taking what you say. The priest cannot make a mistake and read your notes from the first or the Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, you're just being very weird. Maybe, maybe, you know, you're not doing what the Bible, maybe the Bible you need not do what the Bible says, you know, to be patient when wronged with generalist, correcting those who are in opposition Colossians four or five and six, maybe you're committing a venial sin here. Maybe just a little bit.

You never know because of your rudeness. Okay. Yeah.

So I'll apply, I'll apply the law to you. The PR you said, are you chastising? Yeah.

Good job. The priest. Yeah, you need it.

The priest cannot mistakenly forgive someone other sins in the confessional. Right. Yeah. I think that's more accurate of what I earlier said. Yeah. Then, Oh, that's fine.

That's fine. Then, uh, is he acting on the equal level as Jesus? Oh, I don't think so. He's been given the authority to forgive sins, but it's Christ who is forgiving the sins. So that's not what I'm asking. See, keeping the law.

People say they can keep the law that God, God says, love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Right. And people will say they do shame. Sheesh, man, you have problems here. You can't let me finish a sentence.

You know, it's people listening. Okay. You're representing Catholicism to him. All right. I was just acknowledging that you would reference the shame of prayer from the old Testament. Good job. So that was Shimon. Yeah.

Do you hear me? Six, five. So here's the thing. Is Jesus the standard of keeping that law or is the human being the standard, which is Jesus or the human being? What do you mean by the standard? Jesus is a standard of righteousness. Jesus keeps the law perfectly.

We can never do it because we're sinners by nature. So Jesus is a standard of what is right. So if you're going to say, the priest cannot mistakenly forgive someone of their sins in the confessional, then you're saying he's acting on the same level and perfection as Jesus himself. No, that's not, that's, that wouldn't be a good analogy. So what I would say is the priest is simply acting as a conduit for Christ in the sacrament and it's God who knows what's on the person's heart.

So, okay. If the person, uh, is, is speaking and behaving in a way that leads the priest to genuinely believe the person is contrite and intends not to commit that sin again and is asking forgiveness, then the priest will absolve the person of their sins, but only because of the authority given to him in ordination that stems clear back to John 20, 21 through 23. Yeah. If the priest believes the person is contrite, which is possible that the priest could make a mistake and believe that he was contrite when he was not.

Is that possible? Oh, I don't know if the priest would be making a mistake, but the priest could be misled by the person. Um, because you know, as a human being, we can only go on the information that we're provided. Right.

So he could be misled by a person. Could Jesus be misled by a person? No, no. So that's why sin cannot be forgiven. So then, so then the priest is not acting on the same level of excellence and perfection as Jesus. So therefore, you can't say, you cannot say the priest cannot mistakenly forgive someone of their sins. Okay. You're saying in order to say that it never happens.

You have to say he's on the same level of Jesus that no mistakes are made. This is the arrogance of people who say that. Yeah. Yeah.

It's, it's arrogance. Okay. Now I asked you earlier, uh, about, oh, I need to go back to John 20, 23. If you forgive the sins of any of their sins have been forgiven, they already are forgiven.

If you retain them, they have been retained. It's the same thing. Yeah. So the priest is not the one. Hold on.

Hold on. The priest is not doing the authority thing of his own and that by him he's forgiving because if that's the case, then God the father's obligated to follow suit and forgive. But if it's not the case that the father's obligated to forgive, then it's not the priest pronouncing actual forgiveness as though it was out of his authority, but out of his authority, he's a pronouncing what God has already done to the, to the confessor. That's all that's happening, right? I think you're tying yourself in knots with that. So you don't understand it again. You want me to explain it again? I'm introducing you to Protestant theology. Well, I'm introducing you to the truth of scripture. So you know, you're not, you don't know this actually reads. No, you don't. Let's stop. Well, hold on. You don't know. You just recited it exactly how I know that, that you think you have to recite it, which is saying that both parts of that sentence say this has already happened. That the sin has already been retained. Do you know what the perfect hands means in the Greek? It's a critical look.

Aorist is like this. I walked. Perfect tense is I have walked.

Pluperfect is I had walked. Perfect tense is a past action with, with continuing action in the present. So you aorist is so indefinite like that. So what Jesus does is he switches from the aorist to the perfect.

If it's done in the past, aorist to the effects of the past forgiveness or continuing into the present. He said, if you forgive some time with this verse then Matt, because, because you are, you're defeating your own argument by applying that to both halves of that sentence. There's a semicolon, and you're saying that Christ retained sins on the cross under your theology, which is flawed. But go ahead, Bobby, you don't even let, let me finish my sentences.

You interrupt out of your ignorance. I've only discussed this about thousand times with Catholics. John 20, 20, I've written on it quite a bit. Don't tell me I don't know what it says. I know I go to the Greek and I look at it in the Greek. I'm telling you and just tell me I need to go study it.

Are you kidding? You don't even know what tenses that they are. If you say that you've heard this argument before from me and you say you've gone through and looked, you'd even know what the perfect tense is and how critical it is.

Don't don't don't give me this stuff. And I asked you if the priest is the one doing this forgiveness, is God obligated to forgive? Well, he says, no. Well then welcome to Protestant theology. Because what we say is, and this isn't about priesthood authority, because there is no new Testament priesthood like the Catholic church has.

It doesn't exist. Yeah. I heard you mention that a little bit ago too. So pointing back at just that verse 23 and you, and you can't interrupt me either, Matt. Okay. I know that this is your radio show, but you, you complain about me interrupting you and then you interrupt me. You should, you should play fairly. And by saying, do it excessively while I'm talking is interrupting me, Matt. So you need to play by the rules that you yourself want to hold others to make your point.

Sure. So my point is you need to go back and read verse 23 in light of the Catholic teaching on the sacrament of reconciliation. And you will see that the way that you're trying to interpret that sentence defeats your argument because the way that you read it, if you forgive the sins of any, they are already forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are already retained. And when you say the first part, you're saying that all the sins were forgiven by Christ on the cross.

Now as Catholics, we believe that the, well, as, as a non Catholic, you believe that all of your sins past present and future were forgiven by Christ on the cross. Correct? No, didn't. I never said that. I never say that. You don't understand my position. So what do you say? How do you explain, how do you explain what the sins you commit today that you can't confess because you're, you can't go to a confessional. You'd have no clue apparently what the position is I teach.

Okay. Colossians two, this is what we need to do. I do this with Catholics all the time.

I teach them theology. We have to go through, but if it take some back steps here, so what it says here, Jesus canceled out the certificate of debt. This Colossians two 14, consisting of decrees, which is hostile to what you took it out of the way, having nailed to the cross.

You got less than a minute here. What's the certificate of debt that Jesus canceled at the cross? You know what it is? I mean, if you don't know, you don't know. It's okay.

You can look at it and call them on. Well, it's the sin. It's all sin. So any sin that sin debt, especially original sin. So no, it doesn't say original sin. It says in the previous verse, it says, having forgiven us all our transgressions verse 13, having canceled out the certificate of debt. It's all transgressions, not original sin. You have to alter the word of God to make it fit your theology. Tell you what, we're by original sin is one of them, but go ahead. Well, yeah, but that's not what the only thing, the Catholics always do this.

They reduce certain words to certain categories of a broader scope. And then they say, that's what it really represents. And that's, I said, Jesus, we are out of time.

So I'll tell you what, not a broad brush yet is, but it's true. I've done it hundreds and hundreds of, type of Catholics. I've seen it. So look at Colossians, Colossians 2, 14. There's the music. Look, Colossians 2, 14, go look at it.

Well, if you want call back tomorrow and I'll teach you what the position is. 5, 18 as well. James 5, 14 through 15. Yeah. I know. I know that stuff. I've done it a hundred times.

So look, Colossians 2, 14, check it out. We'll call back tomorrow. Okay. We got to go, buddy. I might be able to, we'll see. Okay.

Thanks a lot. Well, that was interesting. Oh, yeah. You know, when we have little time, I have to get in there. We're like this, we're out of time. Your Lord bless you. Talk to you tomorrow.