Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody, welcome to this show. It's me, Matt Slick.

It's the Matt Slick live. Today's date is June 3rd, 2024, for the podcasters. And I got back after a long weekend, went down to Utah and debated a guy, David Robinson, and we did that on Friday. It was a good turnout. It's a good turnout. I met a lot of neat people, and I'm actually interested in feedback. So if you were there to debate, we don't have it up online yet.

So we will hopefully by the end of the week. So if you were there and you want to call in, make comments, love to hear from you and tell me what you thought. I know that was we had a good turnout. I was surprised because the time four o'clock on a Friday wasn't the best, but, you know, that's the way it worked. So I did meet some people who were very thankful for the radio show down there. And it was pretty good. I mean, that was great to hear them be appreciative.

And I'm not looking for praise. It's just, you know, it's nice to meet people who listen to the show, who benefit from the show. I want to say thanks to Russ, because he did a great job putting everything together.

He's a he's a good man. He runs the station down there, and they have this really nice Bible kind of a museum kind of building house place. They meet at a cross from Weber State or Weber State, we were. And we had a good time there after the debate, we went over there and had pizza and got to talking to some people afterwards and got to teach some advanced theology to some people. I always love doing that. We had a good time. And then I went over and spent the night over to Russ East's house and a nice house. The family was great.

Hey, Tammy, his wife. It was great. I treated really nicely and everything was great and came back and then I stopped by two people to see two people on the way back and got here around 10 o'clock at night Saturday and stuff like that with the church on Sunday.

And I think that's about it. So, hey, look, if if you want to give me a call about the debate, if you were there, you know, you can comment. I want to hear from you.

Give me a call 877-207-2276. I think it went very well. I don't think that my opponent made his point. And I'll talk about it a little bit before we get to the callers. So the big topic was, does the Bible teach salvation by faith or works?

So basically, that's a pretty easy one to discuss. Faith or works, right? So what I did was read some verses, but here's the main one. It says this for the grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not as a result of works. So if the debate topic is, does the Bible teach salvation is by faith or works? And you say we've been saved through faith, not of works.

Ephesians two, eight, nine. Well, then I'm going to conclude that we're saved by faith and not by works, which is exactly what the Bible says. And that there's other verses that teach the same thing.

So what was interesting was my opponent, nice guy. You know, his last guy, he kept saying the word alone wasn't there in the text. And I addressed the issue of alone with the Romans four or five. We talked about justification, too, because justification is part of of salvation, where a man is justified by faith alone. And that's what it says logically in Romans four or five to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies in Godly, his faith, his credit, his righteousness. The word alone doesn't have to be there, but the concept is certainly taught.

And so, you know, it's just basic stuff. And I thought it was it was good. I thought it was interesting. And hopefully Lord won't.

I'm going to find out where the the file is because somebody they recorded it. They had a guy do that. And Charlie was his name. He's a great guy and wasn't really a believer.

But I don't think he was. But, you know, we talk. He's a nice guy.

So we'll get this stuff from him and then I'll just upload it on on Rumble and YouTube and we'll let it go and stuff like that. All right. Hey, so if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. You can also email me.

That's easy. Just direct an email to info at Karm dot org. C a r o r g info at Karm dot org and put in the subject line radio comment or radio question.

And by the way, Karm was either Friday or Saturday passed one hundred and sixty three million visitors for the total number of people to come to the site. How about that? I think that's it. OK, well, let's get on the phones with Juanita from Michigan. Juanita, welcome back on the air.

Hey there. Thank you very much. Thank you.

My thought real quick. I don't want to get off on the face thing because I'm ticking. There's a ticking. Can you hear that? Your guy said there was a ticking. I don't hear it. If it doesn't bother you.

No, it's it's distracting. Can you just call right back and then we'll get you on. We'll get you going, OK? OK. All right.

It is pretty it's pretty bad. OK. All right. Let's see. Let's try this with let's try it with go to Alan and there's no ticking.

OK, good. She'll call back and we'll get going. Alan, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, Matt, how's it going? Oh, it's going. It's going. How are you doing? I'm doing all right.

So one thing I thought about my friend actually mentioned to me about this. Is does God partake in humor? It's hard to answer because humor is based upon surprise.

God's not surprised. So I would say in that sense, no. However, another sense, he certainly has a sense of humor when he uses someone named Slick who's got mental problems.

So, you know, aside from that, I don't think we can we can say so. You know, so would you would you say someone laughing at something is someone partaking in humor? Could be, but it could also be mocking. You know, I laugh at you in derision because it could be a derision. It could be a derisive thing.

So that just depends. Well, I would consider mocking a former team or two, but it could be just, you know, it could be. Yeah. Oh, the main the main verse I was looking at is Psalms fifty nine eight.

OK, on fifty nine eight. But you, O Lord, laugh at them. You scoff at all the nations. So, yeah, that's a a scoffing kind of a laugh like you're so dumb. You know, she's like that kind of thing. Yeah. Would you would you say that's humor in that case?

No, I wouldn't. I'd say it's not humor. But humor is a wide variety of things. And so is it like stand up kind of humor?

No. You know, I hate to hear the one about the, you know, humor. So, you know, a cat falling backwards when it gets scared by a toaster. That's humor. So there's all kinds of ways to define it. And so it's hard to apply it to God. The laughter we laughs is a derisive thing.

And I wouldn't call that humor. OK. OK. All right. Well, I appreciate it, man. Sure. No problem at all. All right.

God bless. All right. Now let's try one again.

Let's see. OK. Am I OK? Yeah, that's good. No. OK. All right. Great.

I only want to take a minute because you have other callers. But you had asked me last time to take a look at John 14, 23. We were talking about, of course, I'm a non Trinitarian. And you wanted me to look at John 14, 23. You had said that. So if a man loved me, he will keep my words. My father will love him and we will come on to him and make our abode with him. And you had said that because the father and Jesus will, that they will make our abode with us, that that means that Jesus is God.

And I, you know, of course, have to disagree with that. So you asked me to look at it. And so I am calling now to say that the whole point of what John is trying to say there is he's talking about the promise of the spirit. He's talking about how the spirit will indwell us through faith in Jesus Christ. He says in 16, he says, I will pray the father and he shall give you another comforter that he may be with you forever, that he will dwell with you and shall be in you. And Jesus says, I will not leave you comfortless.

I will come to you. And so the way that Jesus comes to us is he explains in verse 26. He said, But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, who the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you. So all the things that Jesus has taught will be brought to our remembrance through the Holy Spirit, who is, you know, the spirit of truth, who leads us to all truth. And so via Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit, Jesus abides in us, his abode is in us. We are like a temple where, you know, referred to as a temple. Corinthians tells us we're the temple of God and the spirit of God dwells in us and Ephesians. You know, we're built as a habitation of God through the spirit. I have one last scripture. First, John four, 15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the son of God, God dwells in him and he and God. So if we confess that Jesus Christ is the son of God, God dwells in us. So the it's very, it's very distracting that people's eyes are turned by the meaning of the father and Jesus will make their abode enough, you know, to say that that has anything to do.

Can I comment? Oh, absolutely. Mm hmm. So you just supported the doctrine of the Trinity because you said the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit will all indwell us. That's exactly how we get the doctrine of the Trinity.

Now, when you go to 14, 23, what it says there, what you need to look at. A lot of times that people do in different religious systems, when a particular verse doesn't agree with their theology, they go elsewhere. Then what they do is they take a meaning someplace else and they import it over to this verse or whatever verse that challenges them.

And then they reinterpret it that way. What it says in the verse, if anyone loves me, he'll keep my word. He's talking about himself. The father will love him and we that means a father and Jesus will come to him and make our abode in or with him. So he's saying the father is going to live in you.

No problem. And Jesus says he will do that, too. So do you believe that Jesus himself is living in you? What scripture tells me here is that he will petition the father and the father will send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will teach us all things that Jesus has said.

That's what he said, is that if he is well. No, you're ignoring the text. You're ignoring what it says. And the reason you are is because it doesn't fit your theological presuppositions. And so you are twisting the word of God to make it fit your theology. It clearly says the father and the son will make their abode in you. That's what it says in John 14, 23. Do you believe or do you deny that Jesus himself will come and make his abode with inside of a true believer?

That will just be my opinion. Let me read verse 26. Hold on, we're looking at verse 23. We're looking at verse 23. I know what verse 26 says.

You go to 14, 26, 15, 26. I know about him. Look, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word. Jesus is talking about himself here. And my father will love him and we, that's the father in him, will come to him and make our abode with him. Do you affirm or do you deny that the father is going to live in you? Do you affirm or deny? The father, it says that we're built as a habitation of God through the spirit. God dwells in me. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm going to break. You're not listening and you're not entering God's word.

You're changing it to suit your theology. Answer it and get back. Folks, I'll be right back. You want to give me a call? 877-207-227. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Juanita.

Juanita. Hello. Yeah.

Yes, I'm here. Is that answering the verse for what it actually says? It's because John explains in the following verse what it says. I don't have to guess at what it says. Verse 26 says that the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I had said unto you.

No problem. Jesus is petitioning. Right.

But you're making a mistake. The important fact here, the important focus here, the important focus here is that we are being taught how we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the Trinity thing. The important fact is Jesus is telling us.

Okay, hold on. Let me respond to what you said. You went to verse 26 to change the meaning of verse 23, but 26 has nothing to do with 23. The Helper, whom the Father will send in my name, he, he, that's personhood, will teach. That's personhood. You, of all things, bring to remembrance all that I said.

That's fine. But what Jesus said three verses earlier was that he and the Father will come and make their abode with you. Did you also know that it says in 2 Corinthians 13, 5, it says that do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?

Oh, but Colossians 1.27. Absolutely. Okay.

We are the temple. Hold on. If we understand the visualization here. Hold on.

You're saying, you're making the text say the opposite of what it says. No, no. Okay, look.

We are told that we are the temple. I'll show you. Let me ask you a question.

I'll show it. I'll prove it to you and everybody else. Is Jesus himself, this is a yes or no answer. Is Jesus himself personally, his personhood, is he dwelling in Christians?

Yes or no? The Holy Spirit is dwelling in Christians. I didn't ask if the Holy Spirit is. I said, is Jesus himself, Jesus, that's what I'm talking about. Is Jesus himself indwelling the Christians? I can only say what scripture says. Whether it's Jesus himself or the Spirit of God through us being.

It says, who shall ever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God dwells in me. So, you're asking me, all I can do is answer you. It's a yes or no question. Is Jesus himself living, dwelling in Christians?

Yes or no? Show me, show me where it says that. You know, when he makes this... Or do you not recognize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you? 2 Corinthians 13, 5.

Okay? We have been given the Holy Spirit. That's what dwells in me. No, no, he, not that. Now, I just read you a verse.

Now, you know that. Juanita. Juanita. You deny God's word, Juanita. You are under judgment of God. I'm not denying. You deny him. Because I read you the exact verse that says Jesus is in you as a Christian.

And you deny it. You go to some other verses to deny the word of who Christ is. The judgment of God is on you because you're believing the lie. God is giving you over to this. When I read you the exact verse that says the exact thing you ask, you deny it and you ignore it.

If anyone goes through, you can say all kinds of bad things about me. But if anybody goes to chapter 14 of John and reads from verse 15 through to the end, you can clearly see that the very, very awesome message that we are given is that the Holy Ghost was sent by Jesus from God to dwell in us, the Holy Spirit of God. We are temples of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in me. We know that. We don't disagree. Jesus is the high priest.

We don't disagree. Jesus dwells. The question is, does Jesus himself dwell in you?

Does he? The Holy Spirit dwells in me. That's what he told me.

Okay, great, great, great. Here's a question. Is Jesus himself? Is Jesus himself living in you? What he told me is the Holy Spirit dwells in me, Matt.

I'm not going to go anywhere. You're making Jesus into a liar. You're making him into a liar.

I'm not going to go any farther. You're making him a liar. Jesus says even the Father will live in you. Is it true that he and the Father are living in Christians? Jesus said that he was going to go to the Father. Stop making him a liar. Answer the question. Is he living in the Christians or not?

The answer is yes or no. Jesus told me the Holy Spirit. He sent the Holy Spirit from the Father.

We're done. Folks, at this point, it is absolutely useless because she obviously clearly denies Jesus Christ and denies the clear teaching of Scripture. She asked me to show her where a verse says that Jesus lives in you and I did that exact thing.

2 Corinthians 13.5, which says that exactly. What did she do? Didn't acknowledge it. She ignored it. When I go and I repeatedly ask her the same question, John 14.23, she won't answer the question related to it. What this tells you, and you should gather this, is that this makes her a non-Christian because she's denying who Christ is, denying what the Scripture says, and she's trying to find a way to make it say what it does not say. She's trying to say, well, the Holy Spirit's in you and that's how Jesus is in you, but that's not what the text is saying.

So this is what happens when people don't believe the word of God and when they're lost and the judgment of God is upon their hearts and their minds that they believe a lie, and it should be quite clear that that was the case. Let's get to Nate from California. Nate, welcome. You're on the air. How are you, Matt? Doing fine.

I'm glad, you know, it's me, it's me. I'm from California. I just wanted a quick answer really fast. Is it against the law of the Lord to have a man without S-E-X with a woman before marriage? Yes, it's sinful. In other words, I must not have an until marriage. The only time that sexual relations is accepted between a man and a woman is when they're married. That's it. I ask Matt, I agree with you 100 percent because I studied it and I disobeyed him.

I have a child and ever since she was born I have not had S-E-X till because I have not found another woman. And so it's fine for me. Well, it's correct on what I'm saying. Okay, let's see.

What's your question? Let's do the question thing. That I shouldn't at all go into marriage. No one is supposed to have sexual relations with anybody outside of marriage.

To do that is a sin against God. Oh, yeah. Well, correct me, but number one woman, yes. Even though that's what I'm telling you is what I mean. That is a deal with the woman, of course.

That's number one. But no other until marriage. Correct.

The only time it's permitted is in marriage. That's it. No exceptions. All right. We've got to break. Hold on, brother. Okay.

We've got to break. Okay. Hey, folks, if you want, you can come right back and we'll be right back. So give me a call. 877-207-2276.

I'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, we have two open lines, 877-207-2276. Let's get on. Whoops. No. Sorry. Wrong.

Wrong. I hit the wrong thing. Let's get back on with Nate.

Hey, Nate. Welcome. You're back on the air. Thank you. I know you're going to give me. Why?

Because while I was with her, I went to church and everything, and not even married, and we committed that sin. Okay. And the thing is that my head was in the air. Okay. So you did that.

So you want to know the condition or what we do about that? Yeah. Yeah.

Knowing the condition, yeah. And I did it. Wow.

But now, ever since we had a daughter, she's not with me anymore. Okay. Well, do you have a question, though?

You're just giving a lot of background, but do you have a question? Yeah. That Jesus said not to have any until marriage, correct? The Bible tells us not to have any sexual relations.

Also, because women, if you look at her, you sinned. Yeah. The idea of thought and purity of thought also is important. Yes. Okay. Let's get back to this. Let's get back. What's your question?

Let's get back to that. Well, question is this. Not question.

Just pray for me not to even, I don't go out or anything. I can't, I haven't found a woman. Can you ask me a question? Can you ask me a question? Okay. Let's get to a question.

Just pray for me that I never meet a woman that truly turns me on and then me go the wrong way. Okay. Look, I get you.

I'm not laughing at you, but I totally get it. No, no, I understand. I understand completely. So, what you can do is you can email us at prayeratkarm.org. prayeratkarm.org.

Joanne takes care of that and they have people who pray and that would be the thing to do. All right? Okay.

I truly appreciate it and I'm glad you and I were correct because I'm going, because I've had cousins who never got, never had it, never had sex until they got married. And a lot of who- Okay. You're hard to understand. You're hard to understand. I'm sorry because there's a couple of words I couldn't quite get, but you email us. All right, butter? Okay. All right, man. All right, brother. Thank you. Thank you. All right. God bless. All right. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276.

Let's get on with anonymous from North Carolina. Welcome. Hey. I'm telling you how to spell my own name.

Testing, testing is this thing on. Hey. Now, my name is Laura. If you would, what did I say? The lady that just called in or called in earlier, my thing is that I saw the Son and Holy Spirit at three and one and one and three, but I know that I have His Holy Spirit.

I know that much, but Jesus as a person, I don't, but He's all part of that. I was confused, I guess. If you could explain what that was, it was. I'm not sure what your question is, though. I'm sorry. Neither here. I'm sorry. I don't want to pose it at all.

I didn't pose it correctly. I'm sorry. Okay.

I know that I have His Holy Spirit without a shadow of a doubt, a beautiful, loving Holy Spirit in me. Okay. I was unclear what she was saying. You were saying she thought she had an adequate seat? She's denying that Jesus has God in flesh.

She denies a trinity, so she is not a Christian. Oh. Oh. Okay.

Well, hopefully she, you know, I'll pray she does come, too, because I didn't know a lot of stuff until God's grace and mercy put me up out of a miry cat play pit. That's right. Yeah. Okay.

And this one, yeah. I mean, I'm overwhelmed by His Spirit, so I just, I wanted to just clarify, you know, anywhere, figure it out. Thank you so much. God bless you, brother, and I pray I had your protection around you and your precious wife.

By the way, thank you for helping her and being a phenomenal husband. And we encourage you like that. Please, someone recognizes it. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. By the way, God bless you, okay? I dig you, man, you're good. All right. Take care.

You too, God bless. At least someone recognizes how awesome I am. Oh, I can just see my wife right now rubbing her forehead, shaking her head. So, hey, look.

We have white open lines. If you want to give me a call, 8772072276. There's nobody waiting, so I'm gonna get a comment about something before...

I've got a break coming up, a couple of minutes, two or three, four minutes. Look, one of the things I've learned to do over the years when talking with somebody is to ask a very pointed question, a very direct question. And I've found that people in cults can't answer, generally speaking, cannot answer direct questions. So if you know their theology well enough, you know biblical theology well enough, it becomes easy to take an arrow and aim it exactly where it needs to go. And I'll do this with Christians, you know, in certain theological perspectives. And I like to ask questions that can only be answered in the affirmative or the negative. Is it the case that, or is it not the case that? This forces someone to ask the question succinctly. Is it the case that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body that he died in?

Or is it not the case that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body that he died in? This is what's called a true dichotomy. A true dichotomy is something like, it is the case that there is a tennis ball in my hand, or it's not the case that there is a tennis ball in my hand. And so it's the statement and the negation of the statement. And generally it understood to be the same case, the same time, and same condition without any changes in there. And so that's what's called a true dichotomy.

So it's either the case that I was in Utah two days ago, or it was not the case that I was in Utah two days ago, say 48 hours exactly from now. So it's questions like that, and one of them is true. The other one cannot be true.

They cannot both be true at the same time in the same sense because they contradict each other. So when I ask the question, is it the case that Jesus indwells us, or is it not the case that Jesus indwells us? For someone who knows their own theology, they should be able to say yes or no. Is it the case that he is, or is it not the case? Well, they would say, it's not the case that. That's all the answer is.

Or you could ask it this way. You say, is this statement true or false? Jesus himself indwells believers.

Is it true or is it false? It's another way of asking the same question. And I'll do this with people because I want them to get to the place of actually facing what scriptures teaches. And you'll notice with Juanita, she's not dumb, but she's spiritually blind, okay? So this is why I asked the pointed question about John 14, 23, and you'll notice, and this is a good example, she was not able to deal with what the text actually said. This happens a lot with a lot of different people. When I do it with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, I'll do it with Atheists, I'll do it with Muslims, I'll do it with other people. I'm asking these very pointed questions.

And sometimes they wanna do the same thing to me. And when they do, I try and listen to that question and answer it pointedly, yes or no. And you may hear me on the radio sometime, someone will ask me a question, I'll say yes. Okay, I answered the question. And is there something else you wanna follow up with?

And so I'll do that, and most people are not familiar with that approach, just answering a question directly. And the Bible says let your yes be yes, your no be no. So is it the case that Jesus indwells Christians or is it not the case?

Which is it? It's the case that he does. If she were to have denied, and she did, the fact of what it says, then she is openly denying scripture, clearly what it says. So what she has to do, and other people have to do, is the same kind of a thing, it's a good illustration.

What they will do is find a way to make it sound like something else. Well you see, way over there on those verses it says this, so that's how we know what this means here. Now there are instances where it's certainly necessary to go look at other related scriptures. But we don't wanna take that principle and say we do it with every verse, then you can't ever know what any verse means, because if you go to John 14, 23 and say, well over here in verse 26 it means this, well then how do you know what verse 26 says? Well let's go over to verse 28, let's do it. Then you are interpreting verses by what other verses mean, but you can do that ad infinitum ad nauseum, and you'll never get anywhere. The first rule is, what does it say? If you can't understand what it says, then you expand out and you go look at other related verses. But it's clearly understandable what it says. Jesus indwells us because Jesus said so.

She's denying clearly what Jesus said, and it's a demonstration that she does not have the spirit of God. We'll be right back after these messages, 877-207-2276. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right everyone, welcome back to the show.

Let's see, the next longest waiting person is Elijah from Pennsylvania. Welcome, you're on the air. Hey Matt, how you doing today? All right, hanging in there, a little obstreperous, but not too much, a little melancholy mixed in.

What do you got? Yeah, so I saw a video today about the doctrine of hell, and the guy was saying that he believed that the fire that is spoken about in hell is allegorical and not physical and he was giving his arguments for it, and I wanted to ask you what you thought about that, and I also wanted to ask you what you think about- Let's do that one first. Let's do that one first. No, to say it's allegorical is false. You go to Luke 16, 19 through 31, and Jesus himself gives the account, not a parable, because there's a proper name mentioned, and in Hades, the bad guy lifts it up being in torment. He cried out, Father, have mercy. He says, because I'm in agony in this flame. That's what it says right there, and also you go to Revelation, let's see, 14, 11, I think it is, let me see. The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.

They have no rest day or night, and so there's smoke, flame, torment, et cetera, and that's what's going on, okay? So no, it's not allegorical. The person who just says it is just not paying attention to scripture, okay? Yeah, and the other thing I wanted to ask you was that passage in Luke that you just went to, because he made an argument for this. He said that he believed that the rich man of Lazarus is a parable because he believes, because Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and Jesus said in Mark 4, 10 to 12 that he speaks in parables, so that the Pharisees will not understand the truth. So that's why he believed that Jesus was speaking in a parable there. Yes, but the problem is it has a proper name in it. Parables don't have proper names in it. When it's a proper name, it's about an individual, something that really happened. How then is it a parable? It's just that simple, all right? Lazarus went down there.

Lazarus and tradition says that Dives was the name of the rich guy. I don't know if that, I forgot where I learned that. But you could also go to Matthew 25, 41. Then, this is what Jesus says, and he will also say to those on his left, depart from me, this is the day of judgment.

Depart from me, it cursed once, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. So, Jesus is saying fire. And I've already heard this argument from the idea of Luke 16, 19 through 31 is a parable. Lazarus and the rich man, even though it's a proper name and no parables have proper names in them. So I say, okay, let's assume it's a parable. Why is Jesus then saying the guy's in flame? And what does it mean?

Because if it's allegorical, then what else is allegorical in there? What else is there? Paradise?

What is it? The angels? Moses and the prophets?

And you know, he'll pick and choose at that point, okay? Yeah, because in the video I was watching, he was explaining that he believed that the flame is allegorical because there's a Greek word in there. I'm trying to look it up, but he said that that Greek word can also mean mental anguish.

So he was making the argument that the flame there is referring to mental torment and not physical torment. Okay, let me ask you a question. What's the word green mean? Green? Yeah, green.

What is it? It's a color. No, it's not. It means you're naive and inexperienced, okay? Oh, I thought you said green, G-R-E- That's what I said, green.

Yeah, green, okay? But it also means money, doesn't it? Oh, and guess what else it means?

Envy, right? All right, so you see the problem is when someone says the word can also mean over there, it can mean something. It's called illegitimate totality transfer. They're taking a word that has a different meaning and a different context and saying over there it means that, that's how come you know what it means over here?

That's what cults do, that's what false teachers do, okay? Now, you can go to karm.org and you can type in forward slash karm.org forward slash annihilationism. I've written 182 articles, 182 related to that topic. You can go in there and you can see how it is used. The word, for example, the word fire.

I did a complete study on it. It can be appearance as in color of fire or of angels of fire or the fire of the eyes of Christ. It can mean burning fire, burning lamps. It can mean eschatological judgment. It can mean the literal fire that burns people. It means the glory of Jesus, God's presence. It could be idiomatic of a destructive force, a fire that redoes the heavens and earth. It can mean judgment of the demonic realm. It can mean non-existent judgment.

It can be purifying agent. It can also mean shame, spiritual manifestation and spiritual truth of judgment. And I did this article, I'm looking at it and I wrote it back in 2018. And I go through every single verse in the Bible in the New Testament because it's a Greek word where the word fire, poor, occurs. And you can check it out.

And then what I did was I put in the categories of what it looks like. So you see, the problem is that a person, when they do that kind of exegesis, they're actually saying that they have a preconceived idea of what the text must mean and it can't mean what it actually says in that context. So it's used of God's presence, judgment, purification, the spiritual manifestation and even shame.

It's used, it has 73 occurrences in different places. So go check it out. Go check it out, okay? And don't trust this guy's judgment because he doesn't know how to exegete his way out of a wet paper bag, okay? Yeah, I wasn't fully convinced of his argument either. I just wanted to hear what you thought about it. But could I hear your thought on this one last thing that he said?

Sure. Um, he said that in real life, when people are burning on fire, they're in so much pain that they can't even have a conversation, they can't utter a sentence because they're in so much anguish and screaming. And he also said that in Luke 16, he said the rich man is never described as screaming in pain, but he's able to have the conversation speak coherently.

Okay, so what he's doing is a logic, yeah, he made a logic error. He's saying that what he has seen that people do, and I've asked him, have you ever seen anyone burn to death? No.

Have you seen any videos of someone doing that? No. So do you then say that every instance of someone being burned means that they can't ever talk? Is that what you're saying?

He's making a doctrine out of an experience that he can't verify. Furthermore, what level of flame is going on? Is it super intense hot?

Is there other variations of it within it? We don't know, but what Jesus says is the man was in agony in the flame and said it. So what I'm gonna believe is he was in agony in the flame and spoke.

So when this guy comes off and says, you can't do that, who says you can't do that? Does he know all experiences of people who've died in flame? There are people I know from the 15, 16 hundreds who were burned alive by the Catholic church and they spoke while they're being burned alive. Oh, really? So, yes.

And so, yeah, there is. And so one man, for example, when he's, this is a, I forget his name, but he was a Catholic who became a Protestant and it came to the true gospel. It's sort of the false one of the Catholic church. They threatened him and he went back to the Catholic church. He signed a document with his right hand, signing a document that he, you know, he was wrong about leaving the Catholic church and becoming a Protestant. The spirit of God convicted him so much that he said he'd forget that and he went back. He said, no, what I did was wrong.

Jesus is God in flesh and all we need is him, not the Catholic church. So the Catholic church didn't burn him alive. So he went to the flames and he asked that he be untied so that he could take his right hand and put it into the flame. And he held it there until his right hand burned off. And he said, thus, let it be done to the hand that betrayed my Lord.

Then he went into the fire. So when someone makes a doctrine, you can't talk when you're in flame. How do you know?

How do you know people can or can't? I get so tired of people who make these broad statements, oh, this is just how it works because I said so. Really?

Where'd you get your information from? Okay. All right, buddy. All right. All right, man. Yeah, you helped me clear that up. Thanks so much. All right, buddy, God bless.

All right. Well, let's get to John from Salt Lake City. John, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi. Hi.

Hi. How you doing? Doing all right.

How are you? Hey, most things are good. Good. Do you prescribe to the five principles of Calvinism, Tulip? Yes, I do. Yep. I see.

So you would prescribe, you believe in total depravity? Yes, I do. Yep. I see. Because I really have problems with total depravity when I read scripture. Okay.

Well, you know, even in the Old Testament, you have... Yeah. First, define our terms. You know what it means? I think I do. Okay. I think I do, yeah.

Well, let me help you out. It means that all of what we are, heart, soul, mind, and body, spirit, everything's been touched by sin. It doesn't mean that you're completely evil in every way and that you can't be any worse. It just says that you have been touched by sin and all of what you are and everything of you is affected by sin. That's what it means, okay?

Okay. Then there's nothing that a human being could do to cooperate with God. Well, the Bible, Jesus says in John 6, 65, you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father. So if Jesus says you can't unless God does this, then what would you say is the answer to your question? If you just looked at that passage, you're absolutely right, but Jesus also says, whosoever receives me, if behold I stand at your knock, whosoever opens the door. Sure.

It's cooperation on a human level. But then you have to harmonize them, whoever opens the door. Right, but Jesus says you can't come to me. So now you gotta be careful here. And this is just, you know, we're just talking friendly.

We've gotta hurry up because we've got less than a minute. Are you then contradicting the scripture with scripture? I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying think about that.

Because. Well, they would seem to be contradictory. Ah, it's contradictory because of the understanding, not because of scripture. So I always like to find verses that I think contradict because it means my understanding is wrong someplace. And I always think that's great.

I go look and learn. So whoever comes to Christ does so because God granted that they come to him because you can't come to me unless he granted you from the Father. John 6.65. And it says that God grants that we have faith. Philippians 1.29. So if they come to him, it's because God granted it to them.

Then we have no problem with either of the verses. You see? And we're out of time. I just, okay, we'll talk about it some other time. Take care. Yeah, call back tomorrow. I know this topic very, very well. And I'd love to talk to you about it if you want, okay?

Or stay and we can talk after the show. All right. Hey, butter, God bless. All right. Hey, folks, there you go.

Logic gets in the way of a lot of people's theology. Hey, there you go, by God's grace. We'll be back on the air tomorrow. We'll talk to you then by his grace. God bless, have a good evening. Another program powered by the Truth Network.