Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created live and today's date is March 20th, 2024.

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We do that sometimes. So there you go. Let's get to Christopher from Raleigh, North Carolina. Christopher, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, thank you so much for taking my call.

I really appreciate it. Appreciate appreciate what you do for the body of Christ and all your knowledge and devotion. So my question is regarding, I'm not sure if you heard about it, but it's either called shepherding movement or heavy shepherding. So I recently left a church that has a lot of the characteristics of that church.

Now, my question regarding that is how, other than praying and maybe that's all I should do, but how could I go about like presenting to like people that I love in that church? Like, hey, I believe this church is operating under this. Like, so that's my question. I'm just kind of getting some wisdom and seeing what I can do.

All right. So we need to define our terms. What is a shepherding movement? And it's an old movement, not like millions of years old, kind of old, but it's been around for a few decades. And basically what it is, is that a true discipleship, true Christianity means that you will be governed by the elders, by the pastorate, and they will shepherd you, guide you, run things through them, make sure everything's okay with them in your life decisions, et cetera. And that's the basics of the shepherding movement. Is that what you've seen happening at this church? Oh, 100 percent. And I've like experienced things where it's like, you know, they were like propping me up to be a leader and stuff.

And then when I wasn't, quote unquote, being good, I kind of got put on the shelf and forgot about almost and other various different things, too. Yeah. So, okay. Now, this is this is difficult to diagnose and talk about over the radio, because I'm not in that church sitting there, seeing what's being said, experiencing all of it. However, normally speaking, the kind of generic characteristics that this deals with are the admonition to subject the body of Christ in that local body, you know, to the leadership of that group to a heavy handed and controlling level.

All right. And so what they'll do often. What they're going to do is they're going to be from the pulpit, they're going to be preaching sermons about how the elders are the ones in the charge, submit yourself to the elders, submit to this and that. They're in control. And so you're supposed to do that. And this is dangerous because that's only as good as the people in charge are.

And they should be pointing to the lordship of Christ, not their own lordship. All right. So that's what the basics are.

Okay. So what they want to do, what they're doing to a large degree is replacing Christ with themselves in some areas. And this is dangerous, of course, to replacing him because they want to be able to tell you everything that you need to know. Well, I've seen this. I've heard of people who've been in it and talk to people who've been in it. And what they've said and how they've said it worked has been pretty bad where they are in being controlled a lot. And so I remember I talked to some people locally where a church pastor was the one that you had to go to in order to find out what decisions to make in life in order to make both just to run your life.

And it also came to the point where the people started serving the pastor and going over to his house, washing dishes, cleaning up, fixing the yard and things like that as service and what it meant to be in subjection to the leadership. Okay. So this is the kind of thing. Is that kind of stuff happening there too? Not to that degree.

I know you've got a lot of callers. Can I just give you an example? Sure.

No problem. So don't get me wrong. I believe as Christians we should serve the church and stuff. But there was one particular time where they were renovating the foyer. And the house that I was living in, which is a whole other thing, a part of this whole thing, they call it the God's house, a.k.a.

a discipleship house. And if you lived there, there was no option. You had to do it. Or you would get rebuked for not serving. And I mean, we had to do like some professional work and not that I'm trying to get paid, but it was like it was almost like, no, you need to serve or you're in sin.

So stuff like that happened. Like, oh, you're not serving, you know, you need to do this kind of thing. Yeah, it's a dangerous thing. And so then your spirituality is judged.

And then when people see that you are being shunned a little bit or rebuked by the leadership, then you're an outcast and then becomes manipulative. Yeah, it's bad. Yeah. So one of the solutions is to lock all the doors, change all the locks on the church, put barriers up and put motion detectors so that when everybody walks up, a super loud screaming bell goes off and people don't want to go there anymore. That's one solution.

Probably not really effective. What you can do is the biblical model is to go to the elders of the church first and bring the charges, bring the issues to them. And you want to document everything. This is what's happening. This is not in scripture.

It's overreaching and it's controlling. And you present this to the elders. I would expect that the elders would reject it. At that point, you then have the option of going to the church.

And one of the options is to work up a one-page, two-page document. And this is the kind of thing I've actually done this, gone to a church and done this and passed out literature to the congregation members about what's going on. And they don't like that. I got the cops called on me by the church.

I did this here in Boise once. So it's just options. You can just say, hey, I'm out of here. But if they're controlling, then one of the dangers is, a danger is that it can become a cult. And nothing is going to. It could be that you're completely off your rocker and you're just spewing a bunch of lies because you're from the devil.

However, it was possible. But generally speaking, if you're familiar with what's called the shepherding movement and you've experienced it and you're telling me the stuff that is consistent with the oppression of the shepherding movement and it becomes controlling, manipulative and spiritually damaging. And it can cause others to become prideful.

Because you're not living up to it. That's right. OK. All right, Matt. Well, I really appreciate it. I'm going to be very prayerful because there's people who I do love that honestly, like there is a situation happened.

I want to try to be real quick. Recently, a lot of people had left because of all of this. And and honestly, after the people that had left, there was. And I told my fiancee this, I said, watch, because she doesn't she didn't go to the church.

She moved. Anyway, I told her, I was like, watch every every meeting that the church has, it's going to be about how someone is full of demons and they're being operated by from Satan and all this. And sure enough, Matt, every meeting they were talking about people being disobedient and all this. And they're they're being they're, you know, under the operation of demonic powers.

And I called it from a mile away and they broke one person broke fellowship because of it. And it's, you know, the person that got hurt is like, well, I'm sorry, like, I think it's good to, you know, I need to, you know, take a step back as friends and stuff. And it just it blew me away. I was like, man, these are hurting people. But, yeah.

Wow. You know, you are you're right in the middle of it. And you've experienced it now.

You accurately predicted what's going to happen. Yes, it becomes dangerous and can become cult like if it were to to progress unchecked, then they become a group that only true Christians are there. And if you leave, it's because you're not a true Christian. That kind of thing. Yeah, it becomes. Yeah.

Yeah. And so here's a question for you. What do you do about it? Because you called me up and maybe maybe I don't know between you and God.

I could put pressure on you or not or whatever. Maybe God wants you to do something about it. Maybe he wants you to write something up, distribute it to the church. Maybe he wants you to go to the elders. Maybe he wants you to just do nothing.

Who knows? Yeah. But, you know, I'm a little bit obstreperous. And so I have gone to churches and talked to try to talk to the leadership about various issues at the end.

Basically, what you're going to get is what I've always gotten. Rejection and hostility from Christian churches. Yeah. When you say why, you know, I was over women pastors.

Why do women pastors? Oh, yeah. I got the cops called on me.

I was threatened with another another place. It's bad. So. Yeah.

Yeah. And you and also it sounds to me like there's a demonic influence already working in that church, in the leadership. And if you were to try and work through to correcting it, you could come under demonic attack. Nothing is going to happen, you know, but I mean, it just sometimes it gets spiritually rough. Trust me, I know about this. Yeah.

In this ministry for so long, demonic attacks are not regular, but it's kind of regular. OK. So, yeah.

Yeah. OK. All right. Thanks, man. I really appreciate your your insight, your wisdom. And you are such a blessing to the body of Christ.

I mean, seriously, I'm I'm grateful. And I pray that God blesses you even more and increase. You know, but thank you so much for your time. You're welcome so much. I really appreciate that. God bless.

Yes. All right. Hey, folks, there's a break. We'll be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get to Paul from Salt Lake City. Paul, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. Thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to preface a little bit. I just barely started listening to you.

Well, a bit ago, I stumbled upon your program and I got to be completely honest. Some of the things that I heard you say were a little bit going against what I believed at that point in time. I was raised Roman Catholic and, you know, it was like, well, this is a shock.

But, you know, once again, when you're stepping on, like somebody says, you know, stepping on somebody's toes, at least you're getting their attention, which it did. When I grew up, like I said, in the Roman Catholic Church, was an altar boy, got into the Knights of Columbus thing to that, and then fell away because it just it just didn't seem for me that it kind of rebelled and then just recently came back, went on to CARM after some of your radio programs and was looking into the differences of, you know, the Roman Catholic canonized Bible, you know, having 77 books as opposed to all the other Bibles that I've seen. And if we looked into having the 66 books and I've tried to find a copy of the Roman Catholic book with the 77 or Bible with the 77 books, and I can't necessarily find one, can you kind of go into a little bit more detail of how the 77 books relate to the canonization and how that makes the Roman Catholic Church, as you say, an apostasy, as it were, and, you know, going from the apostate, right, you know, from putting it back on demand from the pope aspect, you know, and kind of get into that a little bit more just for my ex-Roman Catholic brain.

Okay, well, there's a lot you asked, and let's see if I can go through a few of them. So when Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg door in Germany, 1531, October 31st, I think it was 31, he ignited a firestorm, and the reason the kindling lit is because it was all ready to be lit. What that means is people were already under the great oppression of the Roman Catholic Church, which had become intertwined politically and with military force throughout Europe in some areas, in different degrees in different countries, and the issue of having a Bible in your own possession was punishable by death. A lot of the Roman Catholic teachings and stuff, they would burn people at the stake for this.

So it was pretty bad. Okay, well, anyway, the printing press had been developed, and so Luther was able to, he was sequestered in a castle after the Roman Catholic Church sent some people to kill him. And so he got sequestered and translated the Bible into German, because he knew the original languages, and then printed it, and this caused problems for the Roman Catholic Church. So the Reformation started because of this whole kind of thing. I'm not getting exact details right in every order, but this is what formatted the Reformation. People started reading the texts of the Bible for themselves.

The printing press is what did this. All right, so in 1546, the Roman Catholic Church then officially said the apocryphal books are scripture. Now, I talk to Catholics all the time, and they tell me that the Protestants took out the books of the Bible, and that was never the case that they were in.

The Catholic Church officially recognized them in 1546. Okay, so that's a fact, that's history. Now, that's just a little bit of information. I can tell you why the apocryphal books were not included, if you're interested, or I can kind of go a different direction if you have another question, I can kind of focus on that, because you did ask me a lot of stuff, which is fine.

I'm just saying which one you want me to focus on. Why they were included or taken out from the other books? They were not taken out because they never were in. But in the book of Luke 1151, Jesus says this. From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God, yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation. So what that means is the blood of Abel, that's Genesis, and Zechariah was Chronicles. In the Jewish canon arrangement of the Old Testament books at that time, Chronicles was the last one.

Today, it's Malachi for us. They're the same book, they're just arranged in a different pattern. I don't know why they got changed, but that's what it is. So what Jesus was saying was from the first to the last book of the Old Testament, and that excluded the Apocrypha. He knew about the Apocrypha. Furthermore, in Luke 2444, Jesus says, These are my words which I have spoken to you while I was still with you, that all the things written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled. So the law of the prophets and the psalms were the divisions of the Old Testament canon, which excluded the Apocrypha. So what Jesus said is that, these are my words, he says, All the things which were written about me in the law of the prophets and the psalms. So he says in John 539, the scriptures are about him. In John 539, you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but it is these that bear witness of me.

The scriptures bear witness of Christ. And then Jesus says that he spoke to the disciples about what were written about him in the law of the prophets and the psalms and the Apocrypha he excluded. So Jesus himself rejected the Apocryphal books. Because he said the scriptures are about him, and then he spoke about what was written about him in the law of the prophets and the psalms. That is the Jewish division of the Old Testament books, which they did not recognize included the Apocryphal books. This is what Jesus said.

So this is proof right there that he rejected the Apocryphal books. Okay? Gotcha.

Okay. And then just a real quick follow-up question on that. So you were talking about Luther and the Reformation and stuff like that. So is it just the Roman Catholic aspect of it as opposed to the Lutheran Catholic division that is the Lutheran and okay path to go as opposed to from the Roman Catholic?

So yes and no. I went to a Lutheran college and a Presbyterian seminary. So when Luther did what he did, it caused a firestorm, and all of a sudden Europe is in an uproar over all of this stuff. Anyway, and there was some bad stuff dawned on both sides.

It's just a fact of history. People made a lot of mistakes. And then Calvin, John Calvin, who was in France, he was part of the Reformation movement, but he was a generation after Luther, and Calvin wrote what's called the Institutes of the Christian Religion, probably, aside from the Bible, probably the single most influential book ever written in the past thousand years, aside from the scriptures, you know, the translations.

And because it shaped the foundations ethically and politically of Western civilization as they moved through. That's a whole other story. So you have Luther and then you have Calvin. Well, as is the case, if you want to mess something up, all you need is two things, people and time. So Lutheranism is divided into some good and bad.

Calvinism, or Presbyterianism, is divided into some good and bad groups. And we can talk about that in a little bit because there's a break, so if you want to hold, okay? We've got plenty of time here. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Let's get back with Paul after the break, and hopefully you're still listening. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276.

Paul, you're back on the air. Yes, sir. Thank you.

What do you got, buddy? Well, that was it. Thank you. I appreciate your explanation, and I've gone on to your website, and that's where I got a lot of this information as well. I just wanted to kind of get your take on it directly. You know, coming back to Christianity as it were, there's a lot of information out there, and I'm finding my way back.

So I appreciate you and what you're doing. Can I talk to you for a few more minutes about this, because I'm very concerned I don't want you to go back to Catholicism, because it's not Christian. It's a bold statement. I know a lot of Catholics are hearing this, but the reason it's not is because the Gospel itself, which is around the death, burial, and resurrection, the Apostle Paul called by Jesus in Acts 9, he clearly teaches us, as Jesus does, and I can show you the references, that our salvation, our forgiveness of sins is by faith alone in what God has done. The Roman Catholic Church curses that, and it says in paragraph 2068 that you attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments. In paragraph 2036 it says, keeping the natural law, the precept of the natural law, is necessary for salvation, necessary. And in paragraph 2070 it says that the Ten Commandments are an expression of the natural law. So it's saying you must keep the Ten Commandments to be saved. Well, we can't do that.

We can't, because we're not good enough. And so the Roman Catholic Church says that you have to, and I debate this all the time with people, all the time with Catholics. I know this topic very well.

And so I can go into quite a bit about this, and I've written a great deal on it. But not only that, it teaches the prayer and adoration of, prayer two and adoration of Mary. And if you were to go to Carm and you look up the apparitions of Mary, I use the apparitions as a proof that the Roman Catholic Church is false, because the apparitions in Guadalupe and Fatima, that the Catholic Church says are official, really is Mary. They teach demonic doctrine. And I know this because I know what the Bible says. It's not just my personal interpretation like they'd like to say. That's not what it is. It's, you know, the apparitions say, all who come to me, I promise salvation.

Everyone who loves me. You know, it's these apparitions, it's demonic. It's not talking about Jesus.

And then, one last thing. This is in the Neo-Lobstadt and the Infra-Mater are seals of approval from bishops that state that a certain writing is approved of the Roman Catholic system and worthy of being taught to the Catholic members. The Infra-Mater and the Neo-Lobstadt are in the book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, O.T.T. And on page 213 it says this, that Mary, by her entering into the divine sacrifice of her son, made atonement for our sins. So they're elevating her to a level that is just unwarranted. So the Roman Catholic Church teaches a false gospel and promotes idolatry. Okay?

It's not Christian. And you know, and I completely agree with that. Oh, so go ahead. Good.

No, go ahead, go ahead. Well, and that's where my biggest, well, I believe what you're saying about that, because I've cross-referenced a lot of things with the Bible, you know, the whole purgatory thing and things of that nature as well, you know, and praying to Mary that's not in the Bible. So, you know, I've come to know and trust that the Bible is what, you know, is the gospel, is the truth, and to measure everything against that. And that's why, you know, like I said at the beginning, the shock to me was growing up in, you know, the Roman Catholic way was the way, and now it's, you know, clearly for me, it's not. And I just want to make sure that I'm, you know, I want to do what I can to not follow that to a point, but also I still want to be part of the body of Christ. You know, I want to do what is the great commission.

You know, I want to evangelize and things of that nature, but I still want to be part of a church as well, because that's, you know, kind of what we're, kind of what we're asked to do. So. Can I ask what city you're in down there?

Say what? You're in Salt Lake City proper or like in Sandy? Actually, I'm up north. I'm in Ogden actually. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Ogden, yeah, I may be down there doing a debate in June or July. Anyway, in Ogden area, but I know some people in Sandy and they, you know, they've been there for years and years and they're good Christians and they know Mormonism inside out, backwards, forward. They could tell you what churches are good, but I don't know about Ogden area.

That's my problem. So, but on CARM, there's an article, what to look for in a church. You can just look it up. What to look for in a church and check it out. If you've got questions about something, you know, call me up or email, say, Hey, is this a good church? You know, and then we'll, you know, take a look, you know. Okay.

I'll definitely do that. Thanks, Matt. Again, bless you for what you're doing. You know, radio program has kind of brought me back. So, you know, I spend a lot of time listening now and, you know, reading my Bible every day.

You know, I just want to make sure that, again, it feels right, but again, we know how the heart is, right? I just want to make sure that, you know, I'm doing what God is asking me to do and praying on it every day. So thank you for what you do. Wow. Man, I keep listening because there's a possibility in a couple of weeks of me being down there for a general conference at the LDS temple.

So, you know, if I do go down there, I may want to do stuff like that, you know. But at any rate, but good for you, Matt. Good for you. Okay. So praise God.

Just keep reading that word and find a good church. All right. Will do. Thanks, Matt. God bless you. All right, man. God bless. All right. Thanks, Scott. All right. Let's see next long. Ooh, waiting a long time. Andrew from Ohio.

Andrew. Welcome. Sorry. Wait a long half hour. But you're on. All right, Matt.

No problem. How are you doing? Doing all right. I guess continuing on the, I'm sorry.

Let's give it from what sort of what the last color was talking about. Can you kind of give a, like an apologetic defense of why Paul's letters are included in scripture. And I'm just going to be a rat.

Sure. Because if you go to Acts chapter nine, what happened in Acts nine is that Paul was called by Jesus to be the witness and the apostle to the Gentiles. So Jesus himself called him. Now Peter himself was also called by Jesus. And so that's a given Peter. So this is what Peter says in second Peter three 16. And he's talking about Paul talking about, because he says this in verse 15, regard the patience of our Lord and salvation, just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him wrote to you as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort as they do the rest of the scriptures to their own destruction.

So Paul, Peter related Paul's writings to scripture. Okay. Okay.

That's good. Yeah. And, uh, then there's also a verse, I can see if I can find it really quickly while I'm looking at my Bible program.

Yes. This is second Corinthians seven 12. Paul's writing. It says the rest I say to you, not the Lord that if any brother has a wife is an unbeliever. So he's saying, well, you know, not the Lord.

So he knows when he's speaking of himself and when he's speaking of the Lord. Okay. And I also, I was wondering about, um, revelation and being, you know, the, I'm the law and the prophets and, um, the final prophecy and how can, how can revelation be, you know, in addition to that, or is it, you know, you don't saying like, how is that, how does that work? No, just like, is it, is it, it's considered prophecy, right? Yes. Or is it not? Yes, it is.

It's perfect. Yes. Okay. So what is the final, like, you know, the end of prophecy? Or I guess it's not because, go ahead. Sorry.

I think you know what I'm trying to ask? Generally speaking, the book of revelation is considered last book of the Bible that's written chronologically. There's some debate on it, but that's generally the view. And so, uh, this is because God is the one who is true and he knows the future and because he's ordained it and he's revealing what's going to be happening. So that's all that's going on there.

And so the book of revelation is recognized as being scripture by the Christian church and then not declaring it scripture recognizing it as okay. All right. Well, thank you. Appreciate you. Right.

Does that help? Yes, sir. All right. Well, good. I hope you have a good day. Thanks. All right. God bless. All right. Next, we're going to get to Chris, but we had a break coming up in the next 30 seconds.

So I'm going to hold off and get into him. And before the break, just want to tell you that we do stay on the air by your support. And I rarely really talk about this, but I need to start doing it and letting you know that if you are interested in supporting this ministry, not just the radio, but the website as well and the missionaries that we have in different parts of the world, please consider just going to karm.org, c-a-r-m dot o-r-g, forward slash donate, and you can set up something. We don't ask much, five or ten dollars a month. Recurring is really great.

One time donation is also very helpful. And we just lay it before you. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. I'm going to welcome back to the show last quarter of the hour. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get on with Chris from North Carolina. Chris, welcome. You're on the air.

Matt was shaking bacon. Ooh, lots of stuff, man. You're making me smile. What's that? It's me again, Margaret.

That's my song. Quick question, Matt. Three weeks ago, you were talking, and I caught the tail end of the conversation, and the caller was, I'm not sure what his initial question was, but you were talking about cults, and you named a couple that you thought were cults. And I thought one of them was the International Pentecostal Church. No, United Pentecostal. The United Pentecostal.

Yes. What's your thoughts on the International Pentecostal Holiness Church? Well, it just so happens that because you were waiting and the producer typed in that name to know what you're talking about, I researched it during the break. And often is the case with such a title, you don't want to judge a book by its title, but often with a title, they're usually overly charismatic and deny the Trinity. However, this looks like a good church in that it affirms a Trinity because it says, Unity of Godhead, there are three persons of one substance of eternal being and equal in holiness. Personally, I wish they were a little more precise in their statement of faith. I looked at a lot of statements of faith, and I think it would have been better here and there. It's a small thing. And I looked at this stuff, justification by faith alone, but here's something that bothered me, and it might be because the writing is not as clear as it needs to be.

Number seven, I'm going to read and then go to 11. In their statement of faith, it says, Number seven, we believe that Jesus Christ shed his blood for their mission of sins that are past, for the regeneration of penitent sinners, and for salvation from sin and from sinning. So the wording is not very good because it implies the idea that their sins are paid for by the past, your past sins are paid for at the point of when you get saved. That's the implication because it says for their missions that are past. And it should say, if it's really biblical, for all the sins past, present, and future, that Christ did this. So it could be that they're just not wording it properly, or it could be that there's a problem.

I don't know. And so then it says for the regeneration of penitent sinners. And then we get into some other theological things about that, which I would ask them, the logical versus temporal priority, regeneration, faith, and things like that, but those are nuances I like to get in with people. And then 11 says we believe that the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost, and generally speaking, remember, I'm speaking generally, but when people say Holy Ghost, they might say Holy Ghost, or they might say Holy Ghost, where the emphasis is on the very first syllable, the Holy Ghost. And I notice the commonality of that pronunciation among hyper-charismatic groups. I don't know why, but I just noticed it, and they're all saying the same way. And so it became a, what's going on here when they say that? But they don't say, there's only just the word Holy Ghost, two words. I don't know how they're pronouncing it. I don't know if it means any big deal, but it's just one of the things I've observed.

But this is what concerned me. We believe that the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire is obtainable by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer. So it kind of tells me, or opens up the possibility that what's going on is that it is a hyper-charismatic group that you're supposed to speak in tongues to manifest salvation in the presence of the Holy Spirit, and that's what it says. And the initial evidence of reception of this experience is speaking with utter tongues, as the Spirit gives utterance.

And they're mistaken there. The fact is that people spoke in tongues in many places in the New Testament when the Holy Spirit came on them. But it also says in 1 Kings 11 that not all speak with tongues because the Lord doesn't give it to everybody. And so the tongues that were spoken of in Acts chapter 2 were probably the languages that were commonly understood by the individuals of that geographical area who had gathered. And they're speaking in utter tongues, not just a Hebrew tongue.

So there's debate on this, but when they write something like this it causes me concern. It doesn't mean I'm not Christian, but it causes me concern that, wait a minute, are you saying then that you know you have the Holy Spirit if and only if you're speaking in tongues? And if you never speak in tongues, does it mean you don't have the Holy Spirit?

Those are the questions they had to ask. If they were to say, if you never speak in tongues for years and years and years and you're never a Christian, then that would be a false teaching. If they say, no, some people do, some people don't, then we just prefer that they do.

Well, okay, I'd say that's a bit of an aberrant thing, but that they're within orthodoxy. So you see the difficulty here where we're at, okay? Yeah. And then number 12 is also a bit of a problem.

Because what I'm thinking, what you were just referring to when you were speaking in tongues, is when they had Paul right there in the front, no, no, Peter, and they said, how is it that these are unlearned men, but we hear them in our own tongues? Right, right. Okay. Overall, it looks okay. Overall, it looks within orthodoxy from what the statement of faith says.

I have some concerns, but they're not like concerns of their denying the Trinity, denying the deity or resurrection. They don't think they said it if he raised it, which they did and buried it. Wait a second. Okay, now one other thing you said. And it doesn't say he was raised.

That could just be an oversight. Well, look at this. This is good, though. So that the two whole and perfect natures in Christ, that's good. The Godhead and the manhood were joined together in one person. Very good. Never to be divided.

That's very good, too. Whereas the one Christ very God perfect man who actually suffered was crucified dead and buried to reconcile the Father to us. Oh, it does say, here it is. We believe that Christ did truly rise from the dead and took again his body with all things appertaining to the perfection of man's nature.

Interesting. And heaven sits there. So they affirm all the essentials. It looks like they're within orthodoxy. It just, I think, might be a bad thing in that there might be two charismatic, hyper charismatic stuff like that. Name it and claim it because it also says in number 12, even the healing has an atonement so that you're supposed to be healed, but not always the case.

It just depends. I do know the pastor, he said, he's referenced it a couple of times that he'll say something and he says, and I'm not talking about the name it and claim it, but he said one that ripped me up. He said, blab it and grab it. Yeah, the pastor is super awesome. But you had referenced about going to calm and you said go to, telling the other caller, you said go to calm and go and I meant, I couldn't follow it after that. When I went to calm about determining cults and things like that, was it under heresy?

Oh no, just type in what to look for in a church. That was what I was talking about just recently on the radio. Okay, because this was about three weeks ago and you were talking about, you know, it's cults and all, and you told the caller, you said go to calm and then go to something and then something else. And I didn't know if it was heresy or what, but I know you've got so much going on. Yeah, I don't know what the topic was. Yeah.

That's an even better reason to research calm. Well, Matt, thank you so much. I know you ain't got but a couple of minutes, so if there's anybody calling, I'm going to let you scoop. But thank you, sir. All right. All right, well, God bless. Okay, we'll see you. You too, Matt. Take care now. All right, brother. All right, and also one last concern I have about that group is, do they affirm women pastors and elders? I'm thinking I can't find that, and I'll be looking while I'm talking. All right, let's get to Herb from Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome. You're on here.

Hey, Matt. I know you don't have much time, but I wanted to ask you real quickly, I saw a movie not long ago with Jesus of Nazareth, and it brought to my mind about when King Herod, I think it was, wanted to kill, wanted to have all the babies killed. Well, I looked it up online on the computer on some site, just to learn more about it, and it said that they don't necessarily believe that actually happened, that Christians just dramatized that. No, it hasn't. Have you ever heard of something that ridiculous, or what's your feeling on the story? I have no reason to doubt it, but I'm amazed that some people, somebody in that article, they said that they don't grow out of creatives into that. Well, yeah, it did happen because it's recorded in the scriptures, and that's it. It's not just a hyperbole exaggeration or anything. So it did happen, and yes, I do know of instances in people who will deny that such a thing did happen.

Yeah. But it did. Well, that's sad.

I mean, as horrible as it was, and then people wanted to deny it. That's just unbelievable. Well, Buddy, I appreciate it. I just wanted to catch that real quick. I thought about it. Let me call you before you get off there.

And I listen to you every day and still praying for you. Boy, do I need it. Boy, do I need it. Okay. And if you spend time with me? I was rear-ended.

What's that? I was rear-ended yesterday. I said I was rear-ended Friday in my car, so I'm recovering from that.

So I need it, too, right now. I'm pretty sore, but I'm okay. Well, praise God. We've got a prayer team, and Joanne's on it. So what she'll do automatically, because that's how she is, she will just start having you lifted up on prayer, okay?

Well, tell me. Thank you so much. And thank you, as always, Matt, and God bless you all, prayer anchor. You, too, man. God bless. Thanks. All right.

Bye-bye, Matt. Okay. All right.

Whew. Oh, man. So I'm going to just very generically say, for those of you who are out there in karm land, would you please consider praying for this ministry?

Let's just say some attacks are coming. You know, just part of ministry, just stuff. And just ask you to just pray. I'm not going to get into any details.

It's not a big deal. But if you would be so kind as to lift up this ministry, and karm, and stuff. God will put it on your heart what to pray for, okay? And also, I just want to say, if you would be so kind as to consider supporting us. And this is not what I was thinking about, you know, the financial stuff with this ministry.

It's a different issue altogether. But I just want to let you know that we do need your support, and we're not dying here. But if you would be so kind as to consider supporting us with $5 or $10 a month, that's what we ask.

All you have to do is go to karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, and forward slash donate. And all the information needs right there, and you can set it up very easily, and you can stop it when you want. And we do appreciate that.

We like recurring, even if it's just a little bit, because it tells us what the budget can be when we work on things. We know what our finances are, and we do need that, because we have missionaries in Colombia, Turkey, Brazil, Malawi, and Nigeria. And we're supporting them as they preach the gospel. And they don't get a whole bunch, but I'll tell you, they're great people of the Lord.

Anyway, there's the music. I'm out of here. May the Lord bless you. By His grace, we're back on there tomorrow, and we'll talk to you then. God bless everybody. Bye.