Overcoming Shame and the Life of a Beggar (w/ Fred Anson), Pt. 1

You're entering Outer Brightness. Hey, Fireflies. Paul here.

Welcome back to Outer Brightness. Over the next two weeks, we're going to bring you an interview that we conducted with Fred Anson. Fred is the driving force behind Beggar's Bread, a Christian blog where beggars share the bread that they've so freely and graciously received. Before Fred converted to Christianity in the 1970s, he was an atheist. Early in his life as a Christian, he became enmeshed in a high-demand Christian cult called the Shepherding Movement. Fred visited Outer Brightness to share his story and what he learned about mind control from his time in the Shepherding Movement and what he learned from leaving that group. At times, during the interview, Fred is animated about his advice and the ways that high-demand religions control their adherents, oftentimes without their even being aware of the fact that they're giving away their autonomy to the organization.

This is all part of my journey as well. I've shared in season one episodes 15 and 16 how when I returned from my LDS mission, I went online to try to find answers to some of the questions I had about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Within a year, I was involved in a private discussion board made up of around 10 to 12 people who were all active Latter-day Saints or former Latter-day Saints. I remember one particularly heated exchange on that board between a woman who was an active Latter-day Saint and a man who had left the LDS Church and become an atheist. The thread was about the ways in which the LDS Church and its culture controls and restrains women from reaching their full potential. In this way, the man argued, the LDS Church exhibits cult-like behavior. The woman I mentioned pushed back against that idea. She argued that since she freely participates in the LDS Church and culture and does not feel constrained by it, that he could not tell her that she was being controlled.

Reading that thread was a watershed moment for me. A part of my mind opened up, and I could see that the man was correct about the LDS Church and its culture of mind control. But I remained in the LDS Church for the next eight years.

Why? Because I also took to heart what the woman had said. I thought that if I participated with eyes wide open and by my own free choice, I could be alert to and avoid any aspects of mind control. I believed the LDS Church was true, so I thought I could stay.

I was wrong. Towards the end of my time in the LDS Church, as I had conversations with my wife Angela about possibly leaving, being a Mormon was so wrapped up in my identity that I told her I couldn't imagine ever being anything else. Even with eyes wide open, through participation, my mind was conditioned to be closed. Please listen to Fred's advice and consider what he says. I think you'll find that he has a heart for anyone entrapped in a high-demand organization, whether it's in a religious, commercial, political, or self-help context. As always, thank you for listening, and check the show notes for how you can read Beggar's Bread or get in contact with Fred Anson.

Hey fireflies, Michael here. When I was questioning the LDS faith, there was one man who was instrumental in helping me seal the deal. That man was Fred Anson. He always seemed to know exactly what to say to get me to think objectively about things. One piece of advice that sticks out to me was to approach Mormonism with the eyes of an outsider.

He told me that a compass won't work in a submarine because of the magnetism and you have to get outside to get your bearings. In retrospect, his advice makes sense as he was formerly a member of a mind control cult, the shepherding movement. Now we try to avoid using the cult word at outer brightness because of how triggering it is. Latter-day Saints get called cultists all hours of the day and as a result tend to ignore the accusation. However, it's important to acknowledge that there are real cults out there, like Scientology and the FLDS church, and to be aware of what makes a cult a cult and why they are dangerous systems. We aren't going to call Mormonism a cult, but we will be talking about what a cult is and then it is up to our listeners to decide for themselves.

So without further ado, let's get to discussing this. Fred, we're glad to have you on board today. So Fred, in one of your articles in Beggars Bread, you said that you were in a cult for 11 years. What does that mean and how would you define a cult?

Well, there are two people throw around the C word quite a bit, cult word, and there are two different kinds of cults. First, there's a theological cult, which means a group that deviates from a standard set of Orthodox. To use the Mormon example, Latter-day Saints have no problem calling the FLDS a cult. And you can go through old Ensign magazines and I can give you pull quotes where Mormon leaders have in fact called the FLDS church a cult.

How can they do that? Well, from the LDS church perspective, the FLDS church has deviated from their established Orthodoxy. Therefore, they're a cult. So when a mainstream Christian calls, say, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Moonies, you know, take your pick, a cult. Typically, what they mean is they're talking about a theological cult. I find that useful, but I also find it, you know, Michael, in your introduction, you talked about the tank. And there are all kinds of tanks.

I find it helpful to get out of one's tank and look at things more objectively. And I find it better to look at the cult word, the C word, from the perspective of sociology. In other words, what does the group meet a particular set of sociological criteria that defines it as a cult? And the best model that I've found, there's a lot of models out there, but the one that kind of takes them all, puts them all together in a nice way, a way that's approachable for most people and establishes a good criteria is called the bite model. It's from a guy named Steven Hassan.

If anybody here has watched the television show Scientology in the Aftermath, he was a guest on there. Hold on, I've got it right here. The bite model stands for information control, or I'm sorry, behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. And you can go up on the Beggars Bread website and just do a search on bite, B-I-T-E. And an article will come up that compares, that gives the bite model first and foremost, and then compares both my group, which was the shepherding movement of the 1970s and 80s, actually went into, started to creep into the 90s before it was shut down. It gives a criteria from the bite model.

And then for Mormonism, it gives a set of analyses of Mormonism against the bite model criteria. And Steven Hassan, very correctly, I think, says that the best way to evaluate any group is to go to former members. Former members, like y'alls, okay, are the best source of information for a particular group.

Why? Well, because number one, they've been in the group. They know what happens in the group.

Number two, they can talk honestly. They're not beholden to talk about the group in a particular way, which, oh, by the way, that's one of the criteria. Let's talk about mind control real quickly, okay? People, when you say mind control, they think of like zombie people that are told by their leader what to do. They think of like, what was his name?

Marshall Applegate and Heaven's Gate. They think of Scientology. They think of all these very high control groups. And they don't realize that there's mind control cults all over the place. What mind control does is it basically gives you the illusion of freedom, but it limits your choices. It says you're only allowed, okay, in the world of thought, you're only allowed to think from here to here and no further.

If you go outside of those parameters, well, guess what? You're not one of us anymore. We will do bad things and they will. You guys are ex-Mormons and you know for a fact that they will if you deviate out outside of those lines, okay? So, I'm kind of rambling here.

Does that answer your question to some level of satisfaction? Yeah, I mean, that's a perfect explanation and we'll definitely get into that a little bit more as we go into the discussion. But I do want to talk a little bit about the shepherding movement and your involvement in it. So, I was reading your article on Beggars Bread and you said you started off as a hippie and then you ended up going into the shepherding movement and I understand it's a pretty strict environment. So, I'm wondering how did hippie Fred end up getting involved in a religion like that? Well, you also forgot another adjective which is I was an atheist hippie. So, I wasn't just a hippie, I was a shake your fist at the sky, not say very nice words to God. I was one of those guys, okay? And you know, the whole thing about being a hippie is total freedom, man. I mean, you know, nobody's going to tell me what to do. Question authority, dude.

And I was one of those guys. And the funny thing is being an atheist hippie, there were more rules as an atheist hippie than there are as a Christian. You know, you could get in trouble with the hippies faster than you could with the religious folks in a heartbeat. So, in that world of apparent no constraints, anything matters, what's funny is all of us really, well, I would say those of us that are healthy, we really do want some boundaries in our lives. We want to know where the guardrails are. We want to know, hey, you know, if you go too far over this way and this too far over that way, you know, it's probably not a good place to go.

You're going to end up in a ditch. And what the shepherding movement offered was that. Yeah, I wasn't the only ex-hippie in the shepherding movement, okay?

I got into the group in 1976. And you've got to understand that this is coming from an era of where everybody was in that question authority, live for yourself, look out for number one, all of that stuff was going on. And it was also a very different culture than we've got today. Those of us that grew up in the 60s and the 70s, we basically grew up without fathers because the culture back then was dad worked himself to the bone, you know, 40 to 60 hours a week providing for the family while mom was at home. And so, we had, well, we had mothers, most of us, most of us didn't have fathers. So, we didn't have father figures. So, the shepherding movement also offered us because to explain the system, everybody had a shepherd, okay? And that was somebody that you were quote unquote accountable to. And the idea, the pitch, if you will, is that this guy is going to be the shepherder.

He's going to be the person who looks out for you, that looks out for your interests and guides you along the way. He's going to be Paul to your Timothy, okay? Now, I should regress just real quickly and say that the shepherding movement was not, from a Christian perspective, was not a theological cult. We weren't. Our theology was sound. We adhered to the essentials of the Christian faith. In fact, we had a very robust and healthy theology.

What we didn't have was we didn't have a good application of theology. And see, that's what a lot of people tend to miss is you can be in a Christian group. This is a mind control cult, okay? I'll just give you the name of one church and heads will start to nod as soon as I say it.

You ready? Westboro Baptist, okay? Westboro Baptist, and if you don't know who they are, just go to Wikipedia and look them up, is a mind control cult.

It's only, granted, I've been told there's only about 50 people in it and it's shrinking, but it's a mind control cult because there are the rules and then there are the rules. So the shepherding movement was very attractive because number one, I was dumb as a brick. I mean, I can say it honestly now, I was 16 years old.

I didn't have a clue. I thought that I knew everything. And guys, I'll tell you right now, all guys in Brianna, the lovely Brianna, I'll tell you right now, I didn't know anything, but the big snare, the thing that's going to get anybody into a mind control cult is being too darn smart, thinking that it can never happen to me. It can never happen to me are the last words of every mind control cultist in the world.

And I'm here, I'm sitting here, I'm telling you right now, it happened to me, okay? And it happened to me with the best of intentions on my part and the best of intentions on their part. The guys, the leaders in our group, they weren't trying to hurt us. They thought that what they were doing was for our benefit.

They thought that what they were doing was in our best interest. There was a joke in the shepherding movement that there were basically two classes of people. There were the guys who mowed the lawns and there were the guys who got their lawns mowed.

Now, let me fill in that joke a little bit. The leaders got their lawns mowed. They got their lawns mowed because they were, in their mind, with the best of intentions, teaching us how to serve. So, those of us that were the second class citizens, and I know that, you know, I'm talking to a bunch of ex-Mormons, I know that there's no class system in Mormonism, right?

Okay, I see a few grins, I see a few heads nodding a little bit, bouncing around a little bit. In all mind control cults, there is some type of class system. The higher up the hierarchy you move, the better things get for you, the more stuff you get. So, the cool hip new term for mind control cults is no longer mind control cults. It's a better term, in my opinion, and that is unethical persuasion.

They're groups that engage in unethical persuasion. If you know what you're getting into in advance, because one of the criteria for a mind control cult is information control. As I heard one ex-Mormons put it so well, they said, you know, they don't tell you any of the weird stuff until you've already been in the church, you've been baptized to have been in the church for about a year, and then you get it, and then for just a moment you wonder, what have I gotten myself into? And then you go to the temple, and then you really, really think, what have I gotten myself into? Because the information starts to kind of trickle out, trickle out, trickle out until the door slaps behind you and you go, oh, well, I don't know how that happened, but here I am.

So, that's the answer to the question, right? Nobody says, hey, Jeepers, it's Monday. I think after I drink my coffee, I'm gonna go join a mind control cult. What happens is you get approached by people and they turn you into a project. To the nicest, charming, usually very attractive people because that high demand culture, people tend to be very high performance.

They tend to be very smart people, very bright people, very achievement oriented. And to the initiative, the initiate, the investigator, if you will, the thought is, Jeepers, I sure would like to be like these people. And when I met the people, trust me, I'm going to answer your question at some point, Mike, just be patient with me. When I met these people, the leaders in this group, it's like, yeah, I want this. I want to be like that guy.

That guy is awesome. You want me to cut my hair? That was a big deal back then. I mean, look at me now. It's not an issue now. But back then, getting my haircut, that was a big deal. Okay.

But I did it because I wanted to be like the leaders. So let's see. How am I doing? Did I answer that one? Did I over answer it? No, no, you answered it perfectly. Okay, good.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Fred. So you talked in the beginning how that the rules for the shepherding movement were stricter than for most Christian churches. So would you like to go more into some of those rules? I don't know how specific you want to get. But would you like to talk a little bit more about how it's stricter than most Christian churches?

Matthew, I would be delighted to talk about some of the rules. First of all, one of the things that is in every single mind control cult out there is elitism. Cultists believe sincerely and they have reasons for it. They will give you the reasons if you ask. They're just better. They're better than the average bear. They're a notch above everybody else.

Okay. And the reason why they think that is because they have, remember, we're talking about the lines, right? Let's say that society's lines are out here somewhere, right? Well, our groups, because we're special, we're different, we're better than the average bear. I mean, by gum, most people wouldn't want to be in our group because we are so friggin demanding. We don't settle for mediocrity.

Oh, heck no. We didn't call ourselves a shepherding movement, by the way. We called ourselves being in covenant. You know, those of us that are in covenant, we're living the covenant way. Okay. We're not like those losers out there that aren't in our group because we figured, you know, if you really wanted to be the best of the best of the best, the cream of the crop, you had to be in our little circle.

You had to be in covenant. Okay. So the result is there's demands, there's spoken demands, there's unspoken demands, there's rules, there's rules for the rules.

It just goes on and on and on. And sometimes you don't even know that where those lines are drawn. I mentioned the thing about hair.

One of the rules is you had to have short hair. Guys, when I was a, I hope we don't lose any viewers here, but when I was a hippie, I was a registered Democrat. Okay. Good God. A Democrat.

How dare you? So guess what? I changed my party affiliation. Now can anybody tell me in the Bible where it says you have to be one particular party? I mean, you know, if I decide I'm going to be a libertarian, you know, do you really think that the people in my church are going to, well, frankly, I don't even, I don't think they're going to care. I think some of them would actually like it if I did that.

But you know, it's, there's a matter of conscience, but good grief in the shepherding movement. You couldn't be a Democrat. Oh, heck no. You couldn't have long hair. No. If you attended a meeting, you had to wear a tie.

There is no plan B. You will wear a tie. And if you want to be a leader, you'll wear a suit. And the thing that outsiders used to always say about us is that we were the notebook carriers.

Why? Because one of the unspoken rules is that you would go to the meetings with your notebook. You'd have two things, three things. You'd have your Bible, you'd have your pen and you'd have your notebook. And in the meeting, you would take copious notes. Why does this sound familiar?

X Mormons, because that man up on stage, he is giving you the word of the Lord for you. This is important stuff. And not only should you be taking copious notes, you should probably buy the tape when this thing's over so that you can listen to it 15, 20 times and really get this stuff.

Does this sound familiar to anybody here? I don't know. The words General Conference come to mind for some reason. I don't know why. They just do. People used to tell us, the outsiders that were critical of us, they'd say, you know, you guys would make great Mormons.

You look like them, you talk like them, and you act like them. So yeah, Matthew, there were so many rules. It wasn't even funny. How about this one?

You guys are gonna like this one. Let's talk about the tithe, shall we? Let's talk about tithing. You paid your tithe directly to your pastor, your shepherd.

Your shepherd made sure you were paying your time. And your shepherd had the right to look at that check and say, brother, brother Anson Fred. Now, you wouldn't steal from the Lord, would you? I mean, this is a full tithe. And if you were really spiritual, you know, because if, you know, if the tithe was, let's say $100.03, if you were really spiritual, you'd round that tithe check up to $101. You wouldn't write the Lord a check for $103. Oh, no, that's not the type of thing that the Lord blesses brother Anson. The Lord loves a generous heart. So if you didn't pay your tithe, if your shepherd didn't get that tithe check every two weeks, guess what you would hear? Hey, haven't seen that tithe check for a while. What's going on? You know, and it was always, you know, we just want to make sure that you're not missing the Lord's blessing.

Does any of this sound familiar guys? Like what is it? A temple recommend? Question? Something like that. Yeah, they might not jump on your case every two weeks.

But yeah, you eventually once you get towards the end of the year, yeah, then you'll have to make an account. Tithing settlement meeting the infamous, notorious tithing settlement meeting. So yeah, there were there were more rules and you can shake a stick at my music was scrutinized. I was a musician. I played bass and I loved I loved rock and roll. I still love rock and roll by gum.

Don't even get me started. I was a total headbanger. I was into the heavy stuff. Well, by today's standards, not the heavy stuff. This was this was pretty Metallica guys.

Okay. This was pretty motorhead. This was, you know, this was by today's standard, nothing. But I was into it. And we would go through, I'm going to say a name.

I don't know if this means anything to ex Mormons, but we were like required to go through the Bill Gothard Institutes in something or other. But we went through a bit Bill Gothard. Well, he would he would bang on rock and roll music is the music of the devil. And I broke and burned more records. I feel a pang in my heart thinking of some of the the rare vinyl that I broke and burned back then.

It's it just, it kills me stuff that I would just love dearly to have today. But if you know, you had to be listening to quote unquote, Christian music. And even then there was some contemporary Christian music, you know, like things like that, I'm really going to date myself, you guys are going to be going, who, who resurrection band?

Oh, you know, Petra, oh, you know, he, you know, it's like, hey, and this will make you laugh. There was a there was a thing called backward masking, the true story. There was a thing called backward masking, where all the Christians believe that if you played the records backwards, they had satanic messages. And because with vinyl, you could you could turn the record backwards. And you know, you could hear, well, have you played Stairway to Heaven backwards?

That was the big one. Have you really played it backwards? I think it says so you're sold to the devil or something. And guys, we really believe this. The shepherds really believe this stuff. I mean, you know, if you were if you were a good shepherding guy, you were listening to stuff like Pat Boone in Norma Zimmer. And I mean, you know, if you're a headbang and rock and roller like me, that was like, really, really. So yeah, I mean, Matthew, it just went on and on and on. And sometimes it was just very arbitrary. Sometimes, you know, you would talk to one shepherd would be okay with resurrection band and another shepherd wouldn't. But you did because, you know, this was this was the way it worked.

You did what your shepherd said, um, you know, the good thing is when this whole thing that this house of cards finally crumbled, I had my pastor who was always banging on me about my music back then he actually came and apologized and said, you know, I think I took a few things too far. And I said, Oh, hey, man, you know, we all that we were we were all into it. So there you go. Tons and tons and tons of. Wow.

So, Fred, that that's fascinating. You've got the questions in front of you. But I'm going to go a little bit off script with this next one.

So I'm going to ask you, you know, how you were quote unquote, unsnapped from the mind control that you were in. But before you answer that, I want to hear a little bit about how the shepherding movement had interplay with your local church, and how that how that kind of enter how the two interacted or did they or was the shepherding movement a completely separate congregation that you would attend? It sounds like maybe it was more of a church parachurch organization. So talk about that if you would know there's a hierarchy.

You know, again, like, like, like I said, outsiders told us all the time, you guys would make great Mormons, because, you know, you are accountable to your shepherd. Well, your shepherd had a shepherd, and your shepherd, shepherd had a shepherd. And at the top of this, for lack of a better term, it wasn't a pair of pyramid scheme, but I don't know what else to call it. But at the top of this pyramid scheme, there were five guys and outsiders like guys like Chuck Smith and Walter Martin and the critics of our movement. They called them the the they called them the five horsemen of the apocalypse.

That was their nickname for him. And if you go on that my beggars bread article, the one that Mike was referring to, which I think I called it my life as a mind control cultist, part one or something like that. I never got to part two, because I started to do the bite model for the shepherding movement. It was just overwhelming.

I just it just, it was too much. But if you go there, there's a picture that the banner art for that article is a picture of the early leadership, and the five leaders are there. Let's see if I can name them. They were Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, Earn Baxter, and Don Basham. Those were the five guys. They were the people that started this whole thing. But we, we were basically what you might call a splinter group from the charismatic movement of the 1970s.

All five of these guys were independent Bible teachers. They saw some of the weird wacky stuff. And even back then the charismatic movement was, it wasn't as out there as it is now. But it was still pretty weird. And they said, you know, we got to fix this. And their answer to it was, I mean, again, I can't stress this enough, good intentions, the best of intentions, their intentions was we need to put some structure around this and we need to get it fixed. And but their way of doing it was just wrong. It was just wrong.

It was super duper, duper, duper controlling. And so there you go. I'm kind of feel like the trains kind of kind of coming off the tracks here on you, Paul, but there you go. Yeah, we had our own churches, our churches would report to the pastor of another church. My particular church was in Costa Mesa, and then we moved to Irvine. And his pastor was in Mission Viejo. The pastor of the guy in Mission Viejo was in Mobile, Alabama. And most of the five guys, well, let's see, Derek Prince was in Florida. Don, they were scattered all over the country. But yeah, your church was accountable through this hierarchy of pastors, of shepherds. And that's how it worked. And so we would talk about other churches, like if somebody came, you know, if somebody said, well, I'm looking for a church in San Diego.

Okay. Do you guys have a church? And we'd say, oh, yes, we have a covenant church in San Diego. That's George Curry's group down.

And also, I hear that there's another one that's forming in Escondido. And I don't know who the shepherd is down there, but there's one down there as well. So the thing, if you can't tell with this hierarchy, the good thing about the movement is everything was very relational. You guys know me pretty well. And you know that the thing that's really important to me is the relationship. And I think I'm pretty good at forming those relationships and maintaining them. So one of the skills I got from the shepherding movement was a focus on having good relationships, having tight relationships, and making sure that those relationships are maintained. So it wasn't like you could go to a wall and there would be a map of churches.

It's not like the Mormon church where you can, you know, you've got this formal structure. It was very informal and based on relationship. But those relationships were very controlling.

Again, there were the guys that got their lawns mowed and there were the guys that mowed the lawns. And sometimes you would have, you're going to laugh at this, sometimes the pastor of one church, you would bring over an army of guys, and they would all be working on his pastor's house in Timbuktu someplace. And that's just how it worked. It was very, very relational.

But still, you can be relational, but you can still be in an oppressive controlling relationship with somebody. Yeah, that's fascinating. Thanks for giving that clarification on the fact that it was really a church movement and not a parachurch movement. You are listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. Outer Brightness.

There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here, except when Michael's hangry that is. We were all born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1-9, which calls Jesus the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own. It comes to us from without.

Thus, Outer Brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition – the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. I appreciate that. So what was it then that got you unsnapped from the mind control?

How did that come about? Well, okay, let's talk about unsnapping just kind of in general, because this is a big question and people always wonder why I use the term snapping. Well, what snapping is is remember we were talking about the parameters, okay? And what happens when somebody's in a snap state is the thoughts can only go between these two parameters, right? So hippie Fred would think outside of these parameters. Well, a person that's in a mind control goal, and the thing is if a big red flag waving is if somebody says, okay, you shouldn't be reading that, you shouldn't be watching because, okay, here it comes.

You ready? Because if you do, you won't be thinking the right thoughts. Now, they don't use those words. They don't say, well, yeah, you know, you can't think that way, because that's too blatant.

So it comes across more like this garbage in, garbage out. You got to keep your mind pure, brother. Got to keep your mind pure. I'll tell you guys right now, I watch what I want to, I read what I want to, I listen to what I want to, news, music, you name it, books, I read everything. I read, I will deliberately read books from atheist authors. I, in addition to all the books, because you guys have seen my reading list, I mean, I read, in fact, I've been criticized because I just read voraciously.

I read everything. So, I don't limit my thoughts anymore, but somebody who's in a snap state, okay? If you're talking to hippie Fred, say, I mean, my favorite band, my high school band was a band by the name of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, okay? Really weird, strange guys.

Even back then, they were weird, strange guys. But some of the most amazing progressive rock that the world has ever known. But as soon as I became a Christian, it's like, well, no, Emerson, Lake and Palmer is no longer within the two lines. So, my values change. All of a sudden, the guy who adored Emerson, Lake and Palmer said, I can't go there. I can't think those songs.

I can't listen to those songs. My values have changed so that this is no longer acceptable. And you do a process called thought stopping. So, thought stopping means I just can't go there.

I won't go there, all right? So, somebody who's in a snapped condition simply will not look at anything that is critical of their movement, that is derogatory about their movement, that presents a countering point of view, that presents evidence that could disrupt or upset their preferred narrative. And they use what's known as thought stopping cliches.

I've already used a couple of them. Garbage in, garbage out is one of them. Keep your mind pure. Some other ones that you'll hear even in Christian churches is avoid the appearance of evil.

The one that you hear in Mormonism is, well, you don't want to lose your testimony. I mean, there's an article, one of my friends, she is, oh, by the way, an atheist, okay? She wrote a brilliant book on Mormon mind control. Her name is, well, she keeps changing her name because she's kind of New Agey and out there. But at the time, her name was Luna Fletcher and she wrote a book called Recovering Agency and it's about Mormon mind control. She has an entire chapter on this issue.

I got her permission to publish an excerpt of that chapter and I put it up in a Facebook group, I think, I can't remember the name of the group that it's in, but it's in a public group where anybody can see it. And she has an entire list of all the cliches that people use to thought stop. So the way that you, to get back to your question, Paul, the way that you unstop is very simple. You start thinking. You start thinking for yourself.

So rather than listening to what the leaders tell you and going to the sources that the leaders tell you that you should be going to and oh, by the way, guys, if you don't want to be in a cult, if somebody says you shouldn't read that, go read it. If somebody says you shouldn't watch that, watch it. If somebody says you shouldn't think that, think it, okay? It doesn't mean, okay, I'm sorry, I'm on my soapbox now. Just because you hear something, just because you read something, just because you listen to a particular kind of music, that doesn't mean that you have to accept it. It is possible to receive information and reject it. Say, oh, well, that's good. I understand where the author's coming from. I understand what that piece of evidence is saying, but that's not the conclusion that I come to. And that's all right. That's okay.

But at least consider it. I would recommend, here I am, I am a born again Christian man. I'm someone that I think you guys know me pretty well. I have a pretty rounded biblical worldview and I'm telling you, read Bart Ehrman, read Richard Dawkins, read these guys, listen to what they have to say. Because if you listen to what they have to say, you can look at it critically and go, okay, like Bart Ehrman, you know, he makes some good points. Richard Dawkins makes some good points.

All of the people that, you know, Christians are typically like, ooh, stay away from those guys. Okay? Not everything that they say is necessarily wrong.

It may be skewed, it may be imbalanced. Okay? But at least listen to what they have to say and a key word, evaluate it, weigh it. Just because you read something doesn't mean you have to believe it. It's just an opportunity to use the noggin that God gave you to use to get through this passage.

Okay? So the way that you unsnap is by thinking. The way that you get a cultist, if I'm ahead of us too far, Paul, stop. But the way that you get a cultist to unsnap, to come out of that snapped psychological state, where basically when somebody unsnaps, all of a sudden these two lines go, and all of a sudden the world opens up. And now they're taking in the entire world.

They're taking in the entire spectrum. In Michael's introduction, he talked about the tank. I've got an article called, Mike, you may have to help me here, something about the Mormon tank. But anyhow, if you go on Beggars Bread and search on Mormon tank, you'll find the article. We have to get out of our tanks. We have to evaluate our system from the outside looking in. All cults are a closed system that this is the circle that we must think within. You don't go outside those lines. You just don't do it. Okay?

That is the tank. You need to get out and go, hmm, does this thing really make sense? If I look at this thing from the perspective of an atheist, if I look at this thing from the perspective of a Hindu or a Buddhist or somebody who's in Islam or what have you, how does that look? Again, what we're talking about here is called critical thinking. You're getting the information and you are weighing and evaluating. It doesn't mean you're accepting it.

It just means that you're evaluating. Now as Christians, we can still say, okay, that's all well and good but my standard is the Bible. My absolute standard for everything is the Bible and how does that compare to the Bible? And that's fine because can you see the difference there rather than I'm not going to look at that because that's not the Bible. We're saying, okay, how does that compare and contrast what the Bible's saying? So, it's a very different thing and the key thing is think for yourself. If you're in a group that's saying, no, you're not allowed to think that, do I have to finish this sentence or can you by now can you guys finish it for me? You need to really think about that group if that's the message that you're getting. Is that helpful, Paul?

It is helpful. Yeah, I think what was coming to my mind as you were talking was 2 Corinthians 10, 5, we destroy arguments in every high lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to obey Christ. So, our allegiance is to Christ and to the Word of God, not necessarily to a shepherd, quote unquote, that you had within the shepherding movement or to a bishop. I'll give an example of an experience I had quickly as a latter day saint. I was a returned missionary and I had come home and was interested in learning things. I went to the bookstore and picked up a book. It was a book by Graham Hancock who was kind of an individualistic journalist and he had written a book called The Fingerprints of the Gods, which was about trying to understand why pyramid groups in the New World line up in the same ways that the pyramid groups in Egypt line up with the belt of Orion, the constellation Orion and other things. And so, I was reading this book at a war dinner and the gentleman who had been my young men's president as I was growing up in the LDS church came over, saw I was reading something, asked me what I was reading. I showed him the cover of the book and he saw that it was The Fingerprints of the Gods and he looked at me and said, well, that sounds apostate. And it was a moment in time for me that made me go, no, wait a minute. I'm not allowed to read what I want to read?

What's going on here? So, yeah, I totally get what you were talking about there. But like the point you were making at the end there, Fred, our allegiance is to Christ, not to a movement.

Right. I mean, the plumb line, if I make the decision to be a Christian, the plumb line is the Bible. And, you know, what I've just advocated, let me put a caveat on it. I don't recommend it for new Christians. I recommend it for people that have been through the Bible that know what the Bible says and have formed some type of systematic theology.

You know, you have to. And also, just so you understand, one of the big influences in my life was a guy named Francis Schaeffer. So, a lot of what you're getting here, guys, is basically Francis Schaeffer through, you know, through Fred Anson many, many years later. But Schaeffer read everything. He watched everything.

He evaluated everything. But Schaeffer also, you know, he had a master's degree from Westminster Seminary. So, you know, he had a framework where he could look at this stuff.

And Schaeffer, I'm going to tell you a Schaeffer story to illustrate what I'm talking about. He was dealing with, he had a little community up in Switzerland called the Labrie. And he was dealing with everybody, everybody from ex-burned out hippies like me to people that have been in the occult, atheist, you know, he was dealing with ex-drug addicts, he was dealing with guys that were currently PhDs, Oxford professors, you name it. And he realized that if he was going to practice what he preached, he was going to need to get out of his Christian tank and evaluate his beliefs from outside of the Christian perspective. And his wife, Edith, she likes to, well, he didn't like, but she admits, she was scared.

She was really, really scared, because Schaeffer's a really smart guy. And some of this stuff can be very, very seductive. I mean, I have been, I have fallen into snares, I have fallen into ditches.

I mean, I could come out of this interview and fall into another one. I'm not perfect. You know, it's a people problem.

And by golly, I'm a people, right? But Schaeffer came back and because he had that foundation, because he had that biblical foundation, he was able to look at it all and come back stronger. He had a better appreciation of the world that we lived in. He had a better, stronger Christian worldview than he had before he went through that process.

Rather than just staying in his Christian tank and, you know, and limiting himself to the lines, he was able to do it. So one of the things that I see, and I know I'm on my soapbox again, is I see Christians doing this with Mormons all the time, all the time. It's like, okay, well, I expect you to look at my countering evidence. And the Mormon comes back and says, oh, yeah, well, are you willing to look at this video from Saints Unscripted? Well, no, of course not.

Why do I need to do that? Are you willing to look, read this article from Fair Mormon? Well, no, those guys are biased. Why do I need to hear anything that those guys? Well, I'm telling you, Christians, and I'm talking to everybody, all the Christians that are listening to this, read the article, watch the video, listen to what they have to say. Just because you watch it or listen to it doesn't mean that you have to accept it.

Why? Because a lot of times the arguments collapse in on themselves. A lot of times you realize how bad the arguments really, really are.

But if you're going to ask the other guy to get out of his tank, you've got to get out of your tank too. So there it is. I mean, you know, what I'm really advocating here is just one word, thinking, but not just thinking, thinking from a biblical worldview. Because at the end of the day, I'm a Christian. I'm still going to crack that book and say, okay, Bart Ehrman says this. What does the text actually say?

You know, I'll give you a point. Bart Ehrman makes the point in one of his books that Satan, because you know, it's, Ehrman's big thing was the whole issue of theodicy. And he talks about how the Bible presents Satan as the servant of God.

Okay. Pretty radical stuff, wouldn't you say? Pretty mind blowing. But if you stop and think about it guys, it makes sense. All you have to do is turn to the book of Job and you see it. You see that God is so sovereign that even Satan has to obey him. Now, have I just said anything that falls outside of the lines of biblical orthodoxy?

I mean, I'm looking to you guys for accountability. I don't think I have. But so you can look at Ehrman and you can say, you have a point. You have, you actually have a case from the Bible. The way that you present it in your book is wrong.

The words that you use is wrong. But guess what, Bart Ehrman? You just made me think. You just made me get out of my little evangelical box. And, you know, which, you know, if you listen to certain theological camps within evangelicalism, sometimes I think that some Christians think that Satan's more powerful than God is. And Bart Ehrman, of all people, just put Satan back in his place, which is under God's foot. Bart Ehrman, of all people, is preaching that the reality that God is in control, and that the sovereign of the universe is God, and even Satan has to obey him. So, yeah, it sounds like what you're kind of advocating here, in a way, is the golden rule to that, you know, if we want somebody to look at what we're going to say, we need to be willing to look at what they're going to say.

And somebody outside of our bubble could have something profound that could actually shape us to see the truth more clearly. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the Outer Brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook, where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes, and suggestions for future episodes, etc. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail.com.

We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts, PodBeam, Spotify and Stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel. And if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael the Ex-Mormon apologist at fromwater2wine.org, where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the Outer Brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. Stay Bright, Flyer Flies! I've come to know that you are the Holy One of God. The Word made fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains.

Lord, you promised that we, as your church, would remain. Upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us, cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains. As the rain falls down from heaven and waters the earth, bringing it life, so the Word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, just what you desire. Lord, we hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains. The Word of God remains.