Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick.

It's Matt Slick live. If you want, all you gotta do, give me a call. 877-207-2276 and I can talk to you. So, hey, I hope you had a good weekend. I had a good weekend. And, uh, let's see.

Let's see. I think it was in a debate. Was it Friday? Was it Friday?

Just Friday. Friday night I was in a debate. And if any of you saw that, uh, man, I would like you to, uh, to give me a call and we could talk about that because it was really interesting because I want to have another discussion with that guy. Uh, it was pretty bad. And so I'm interested in, uh, in your feedback on that Sean Griffin. Yeah, it was, uh, it's basically heresy fast. Um, and I would love to talk to him some more and just ask him questions in all kinds of areas just to see what is going on.

Because man, Oh man. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I like, uh, I like discussions, you know? Uh, I do anyway. Hey, look, uh, you can call me at 877-207-2276 and if you want, you can email me. Uh, all you gotta do is just, uh, email me at info at karm.org, info at karm.org. And also if you want to listen, uh, if you're driving or you know, whatever, and you want to listen on the phone, you can, you know, in, uh, in, um, uh, clubhouse, clubhouse. And so you can go there and check it out. Just type in my name, Matt slick.

You'll find the show coming up. There it is. So pretty easy, pretty easy, pretty easy.

Slick and quick. Let's just jump on the phones here. Let's get to Tom from Raleigh, North Carolina. Tom, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. Um, I have a question about salvation and it's chapter three of John at verse 36. It says, whoever believes, the key word there, believe whoever believes in the sun has eternal life, but whoever rejects the sun will not see life for God's wrath remains on him. And then in verse seven of that same chapter three in John, it says, Jesus says, you should not be surprised at my saying you must be born again.

Now I'm trying to put these two together. Let me read you from a couple of verses in Romans at chapter eight, and then I'll let you answer my question in Romans eight. It says you, however, are not in the realm of the flesh, but are in the realm of the spirit. If indeed the spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, there it is. If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

And then in that same chapter of Romans, the 16th verse, 8th chapter, Paul wrote, the spirit itself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. So now marrying the two, you must be born again and whoever believes, what's your opinion? Do you have to be born again or regenerate to be a true, saved believer? Yes, Jesus said so. You must be born again.

Yeah. How would you equate the thief on the cross? Did the thief on the cross have a chance to do good works and did he have a chance to be born again and regenerate and filled with the spirit and the spirit testify with his spirit?

It didn't seem he had that much time. Well, people often don't have time. You can have someone who's safe on a deathbed or on a death cross in that instance.

You can have people who don't have much time and you can have young people. So what Jesus has talked about normally is, yeah, you've got to be aware and know what's going on, be born again. That's the indwelling of God in you. Christ comes, lives in you, John 14, 23, to be changed. 2 Corinthians 5, 17 talks about this. So Jesus says in John 3, you'll be born again in order to see the kingdom of heaven.

John 3, 3. So you've got to do that. Yeah, no big deal. Okay.

Well, that's good. So let me ask you this question, same tone, same tune of thought. Are there unsaved believers? Are there unsaved believers?

No. A believer is someone who has been granted belief by God, Philippians 1, 29, and that belief is in Christ, John 6, 29. So that is something that only happens to believers who are saved. Okay.

Okay, so you're saying that when a person becomes a true believer, they're truly converted in their heart and they're born again and regenerate. Of course. Uh-huh. What church do you go to? So that word believe.

I go to a Southern Baptist church. Okay. All right. Go ahead.

Go ahead. All right. So this word believe, we have to be careful how we understand the word believes. Okay. And what do you mean we have to be careful?

What do you mean? Well, a lot of people I know would claim to be believers. We all have members of our family who claim to be believers. You ask them, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and he's the Messiah? And they may say yes.

And then you look and they have never born any fruit. And Jesus said, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Okay. So it appears that you can be an unsaved believer.

No, no, no, no, no. Okay, here we go. So there's a difference of belief in theology. One's called assentia, the other is fiducia. Assentia is mental assent. And that's found in James 2, 14 through roughly 18 right there. Because it says, you believe in God, you do well, the devil believes also and trembles. Demons believe also and tremble. So that's a mental assent.

All right. And people have that mental assent. But fiducia is a heartfelt trust. That's different. The mental assent you're saying, the assentia, that is a non-saved person, right? Right. It's just simply a mental assent. Furthermore, if you go to 1 John 2, 4, if you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. So if you have someone who says they're a Christian and there's no fruit, they're not Christian.

They just have assentia. That's all. Got it, got it, got it. That makes it so clear. Yeah, we were having a discussion in my men's fellowship group and we were texting it and everybody, you know, this is not real clear to a lot of people. This really helps the assentia is the assent, but it is not the conversion. It's not the regenerate, born again nature.

Right. You can go to, in fact, belief and faith, the words in English, belief and faith are the same Greek word. We just use it differently, but it's the same Greek word, pistis.

The verb is pisteo. So you go to, for example, you go to, let's see, James 2, you know, 14. What use does a brother, if someone says he has faith, but he has no words, can that faith save him?

Of course not. And he goes on and says, do you believe that God is one you do well, the demons believe also and shudder. So it's just mental assent. And that word there is believe. It's the same word from pisteo, to believe. And so when it has faith, and that's just the word piston, which is, you know, we have faith and to faith would be like how it is in Greek.

To have pisteo is the verb, pistis is the noun form. So anyway, that's all it is. So people who said they have faith, but they have no fruit, they have no works, they have nothing in it.

Well, then 1 John 2, 4, they're not true believers. Okay. And then can you identify what you mean by fiducia? Fiducia.

So it's F-I-D. Fiducia, F-I-D-U-C-I-A, and ascensia, A-S-C-E-N-T-I-A, Latin terms. Ascensia is mental assent, just nothing more than, yeah, whatever, you know? Yeah. So the bridge, yeah, I trust the bridge. Yeah, right.

Okay, you're gonna get on it? No, I don't know. That's ascensia. Fiducia.

Yeah, I believe that that bridge is strong enough and then you walk on it. They're different. So ascensia is just mental acknowledgement.

Fiducia is, I like to say, a heartfelt trust. And that's what we have. So you're gonna understand something else. A lot of people don't know this, but God grants that we have faith. Philippians 1 29, to you it has been granted to believe. Well, that comes from God. And Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent. John 6 29. So, what that means is the faith that, the true faith that we had that comes from God, that's in Christ.

That justifies us. But it's not a faith that's merely ascensia. The faith that comes along with the regenerative work of God, being born again, where the work of God is in us. It's a true faith. It's true regeneration.

It's true everything. And so you see the package deal manifested in someone's works, their profession of faith, their actions. So out of the bones of the heart, the mouth speaks. Jesus says in Matthew 12 34. So if someone says they're Christian and they don't have any works, you just say to them, I don't see how you're a Christian. I don't see anything from you.

I don't see any fruit. I've said it to people before. They say they're Christians and they cuss and swear and fornicate and lies. Don't call yourself a Christian because you're not. You can't judge me. I'm just informing what the scripture says.

If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. That's 1 John 2 4. Okay? Yep. Yeah, that's outstanding. Thanks so much, Matt, for clarifying that.

You're welcome. Well, God bless. Alright. Goodbye. Okay. Hey, folks, before we get to the callers, just want to let you know that we've got a Japan tour going on.

And if you want to check out the Japan tour, if you're interested in joining me, go to Japan. We can do that in September. I believe it is. I see what time. So when is that going to be? In November.

That's right, November. But it's a Christian tour because Christianity has a history in Japan, believe it or not. And we've got a guy who's going to be leading us. And he speaks Japanese. He's American. He speaks Japanese.

And he knows history. So we're going to be going around, checking out different sites as well as just enjoying Japan. So if that sounds interesting to you and you want to check it out, all you've got to do is go to karm.org and type in Japan Christianity tour or just Japan tour and you'll find out all of that information. I'm looking forward to going. Alright, let's get on the phone with Juanita from Michigan. Juanita, welcome.

You're on the air. Thank you, man. Thank you.

I had a couple of questions about Second Thessalonians, too. Yeah. And so this whole scenario takes place in the time of the future, doesn't it? Yes.

Okay. Because it says the Lord will consume this wicked one with the brightness of his coming. So this has yet to happen. I've had one person say that it's already happened or something. That's called, that's called full preterism. Just so you know, it's called full preterism and it's refuted by Acts chapter one, nine through 11. I can go into that more if you want, but that's a common, it's commonly understood and it's wrong.

It's wrong. Yeah, I figured that the Lord's going to consume with the brightness of his coming and logically it has to take place in the future. So this man of sin, the son of perdition, would it be correct if I referred to this entity as the antichrist? Yes.

Okay. And antichrist doesn't necessarily mean against Christ. I read somewhere that it can mean in place of Christ.

Yeah, that's what it is. It takes the place of Christ by denouncing him and then saying he is the real one. So it's the spirit of antichrist.

Yes. So it's not really against Christ. It could be in place of Christ. Well, yeah, it is.

That's what it is. The antichrist is in place of and against. Okay. And so this person, can I call him a person? Yes, he's a male. Yep. Okay. This person who comes on the scene, would it be possible because down it says that he comes by the working of Satan with all power and signs and life.

Could it be that this could be a false second coming of Christ that this person would come on the scene? Well, hold on, we've got a break. I want to talk about that because that's an interesting concept, interesting idea. Hey folks, we have two open lines. We'll be right back after these messages. If you want to stay tuned, please do. Be right back. Welcome back to the show.

Let's get back on the air with Juanita. Welcome. You're back on the air. Okay, thank you. Sure.

Okay. So, where were we? I was wondering if we could possibly think that this man of sin, son of perdition, would be possibly a counterfeit second coming of Christ. Well, what's going to happen is he, generally the anti-Christ is who this figure is known as, he will probably be homosexual. He's going to have a wound and he's going to have a type of resurrection. We don't see him coming in the clouds and things like that. That's reserved for Christ.

So he'll be a great political leader and he's going to be quite powerful. Okay. Okay, because I thought maybe where they say that his coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, but there were apostles and disciples who performed signs and wonders. So I'm off a little bit on my thinking or a lot maybe that this could not be mistaken for the, could it be maybe not a counterfeit second coming, but could people be fooled into thinking that this is Christ in some way? I mean, people who don't know the Bible. Absolutely.

There'd be a lot of people inside the Christian church who are going to fall for the anti-Christ because they don't know their doctrine. So boastful and combative, Daniel chapter seven. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one came up among them and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it. Behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

I kept looking. The horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them. Most people believe that's a future thing of the anti-Christ. He's called the worthless shepherd and it says be injured on the head and worthless shepherd. Lord of the worthless shepherd who leaves the flock, a sword will be on his arm and on his right eye. His arm will be totally withered in his right eye and will be blind.

So it looks like. What verse is that? Zechariah 11 17. So we don't know exactly everything about him, but these are, you know, it's the, who's the worthless shepherd who leaves the flock, a sword will be on his arm and his right eye.

That's something very significant. So some say he will probably have a physical injury and then you go to Daniel 11 37 he will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women. Nor will he show regard for any other God for he will magnify himself above them all. So that's exactly like Thessalonians then where he exalts himself as God and didn't worship. So it could be then that this entity, even though it's not going to be the second coming, he could present himself as Christ? People could be fooled?

Yes and no we don't know exactly he could. So let me read some other verses that are really interesting here because they bear witness on this. It says in Revelation 13 verses 2 and 3 and the beast which I saw was like a leopard and his feet were like those of a bear and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.

And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority and I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain and his fatal wound was healed and the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast. So this is like we don't know if these are the same description of the same thing but it seems to be very similar. And then 1 John 2 and 13 talks about the present hour of the antichrists that are alive. So antichrists would be in a general sense all those who oppose the true and living God. Now that would be the Catholics, the official Catholic theology, Eastern Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons. It would be atheists and things like that because they don't have the true living God.

They have an imposter. And so some think that the antichrist when he comes will claim himself to be God and will work with these false religions because they're not of God. And so they're going to compromise. Like Mormonism for example is now starting to compromise on the issue of homosexuality, LGBTQ. It's starting to go further south. And then we actually have the Baptist denominations.

Some of the Baptist churches are doing the same thing. There's causing divisions. And so it's just happening, okay? So there's a lot of conjecture here but yeah, stuff like that.

Right. Okay, so that's great. And it's going to get kind of touchy here because I'm not a Trinitarian but I want to ask. So there's really basically... Do you believe Jesus is God in flesh? I believe Jesus is the word of God in flesh. No, do you believe he is God in flesh? That he's both God and man?

The word became flesh. Let's not do that because you hung up on me last time. Because I want to know if you're an antichrist. Because I want to know if you're an antichrist. Well, you probably would say that I am. I believe that I am not.

But let me get to my question if that's okay. Alright, so there's only basically, coming from my perspective as the antichrist, there's only one person who would exalt himself as God and is worshipped. So we get down to verse 3, what this apostasy is that has to come first. Paul is talking about that there has to be a falling away or an apostasy before this antichrist who wants to exalt himself as God in his worship could come on the scene. And so I think I know what the apostasy is, being an antichrist. What is it?

What do you think it is? The apostasy would be falling away from true doctrine in the person and work of Christ, denying the trinity, denying that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, and also adding works to salvation. This would be part of the great apostasy. Okay, yeah, works without faith.

Obviously there's a lot of things, you know, the baptism and all that. But within this context, we're talking about someone who exalts himself as God in his worship. So this apostasy, which is called the apostasy, which if you can believe that a man can be called God or that a man can be worshipped, I would consider that an apostasy. And until the apostasy is believed.

God calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1-8, but of the Son, he says, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever. No, he doesn't. Yes, he does.

I just quoted it to you. That's what he says. No. Yes, that's what he says.

Say that again. God said that. Hebrews 1-8.

No, okay. Because the Father is the... The writer... Jesus is... The writer of Hebrews... Go ahead. Go ahead. What do you have to say? No, go ahead. I want to see.

I want to see. The writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 45-6, correct? Yes, I know that. That's correct, yeah.

And who in 45-6? It's David who is calling. It's not God who is calling. It's not God that the writer of Hebrews is quoting. It's David who said those things. So David said, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, right? No. Let's just clear up first.

It's not God who said those things as David. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. We've got to break, okay? So let's tackle this, okay?

Because your eternal destiny, salvation, depends on what you say about Jesus. So hold on. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages. Please stay tuned. Welcome back to the show. Bottom of the hour. Let's get back on with one. Are you still there?

I am. And could we just finish up with my question on Thessalonians? I want to make sure I understood your answer to my question. So we have this falling away first, this apostasy that happened before the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed, who is going to exalt himself as God and is worshipped as God. So you're saying this apostasy that happened first has to do with faith without works, and I think it is more appropriate to say that it could be the Trinity doctrine, because unless you believe that a man can be worshipped and that a man can be called God, people won't be fooled by this.

No, if they deny Jesus Christ as God in flesh, they will join the devil, Satan, in hell forever. Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins, John 8.24. Now if you go to John 1.1, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. Now that's a reference out of Genesis 1.

In the beginning God said, and he created heavens and the earth, let there be light, and the light was the light of men. That is John 1. John is referencing Genesis as the creating movement, and that's who and what the person of Jesus is.

And if you go to Hebrews 1, it says in Hebrews 1.2, in his last days God has spoken through his son whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he made the world. He is the radiance of his glory, the exact representation of his nature, and Jesus, now here's the thing, upholds all things by the word of his power. How does Jesus uphold all things by the word of his power? How does Jesus do that if he's not God?

Now hold your horses here for a minute because you threw a whole lot of... Okay, just focus on this. How does Jesus uphold all things by the word of his power if he's not God?

How does he do that? Okay, oh gosh, I would love, I am going to be so thrilled to tell you about that. But let me just make sure I understand your answers to my question. You believe the apostasy that has to come first before the son of perdition, the man of sin, can be revealed. What do you believe that apostasy might be?

You said work without grace. No, you are part of that apostasy because you deny the true God and the true Christ and I'm sure... Alright, let's move on. You asked, I'm telling you, and the true gospel. Apostasy is the falling away from the truth. There has been a rise in cults, false doctrines, and I've noticed a significant rise in the past six months of people who deny the trinity. Yeah, it's part of the apostasy. Do you think that in the end times when it says the Holy Spirit will be poured out that maybe there is a time of truth coming? That maybe that's the reason that the trinity is coming on the chopping block?

It's not on the chopping block. Let me tell you something, Juanita. Let me just say this. If you want to have a serious discussion with me sometime, a real serious discussion, because I can tell you're intelligent, that's my opinion of you. You're very deceived, that's my opinion also. I can show you things that you cannot address and you will not be able to address from your perspective. Inside of scripture and outside of scripture.

There's issues of logic, there's philosophy, but what's most important of course is the issue of what God's word says. For example, how is it, just really quickly, how is it that Jesus is the radius of his glory, the exact representation of his nature? How is it that Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power? How does Jesus do that?

How does he do that? Will you give me a moment to answer without interrupting me? Let me preface this before I, okay, before, is that I would love to get on a format I would appreciate so much if you would honor me in a forum where, forgive me, and I don't say this to be mean or anything, but in a forum that is neutral, where you can't block me or hang up on me or do any of those things. Sure, that's fine, that's fine. Yeah, do you think we might arrange that sometime? Sure, we can arrange that, I know people who can do it.

Okay. You email me at info at karm.org, I will contact somebody and we can get a neutral kind of place and they will watch it and if you can handle the heat. I think that would be fruitful. Well, you're going to be my first time out in the arena and I'm 78 and I have not done this before, I don't have all scripture memorized, but I would really appreciate the opportunity.

There is one forum and they're called The Disciples of Yahweh and Christ and they have a real good format because the person there who moderates shows all the scripture, you know, and it's real good to be able to see the scripture. If we could do that, that would be wonderful. So let me get back to Jesus and your whole question you wanted me to answer and I think, okay, so if you won't interrupt me, let me give you a thumbnail.

Just depends, just depends, but go ahead. Okay, but tell me before you hang up on me, okay? Just answer the question, please. If Jesus, how does he uphold all things by the word of his power? How does Jesus do that?

Okay, you keep insisting and I have to keep saying that the word became, oh please, I didn't even get five words out of my mouth. I keep insisting that the scripture says Jesus is the word of God made flesh. In the beginning was the word, not before the beginning or after the beginning. Jesus wasn't created. Jesus is the only begotten of God. In the beginning, God said, let there be light.

How we can put our mind around God speaking, I don't know, let's not get off on a tangent. It says in the Psalms, by the word of your mouth were the heavens created, by the breath of you all the false things came into being. Somehow God spoke, okay, God said, let there be light. Now what's the first thing that came into existence? It was not the sun and the moon and the stars light because that wasn't created till the third or fourth day.

It was the Shekinah glory of God on that first day. No, no, no, you're wrong. Hold on, you're going on, you're just going on. You're not answering the question.

Okay, no, no, stop. No, no, no, listen, the Shekinah glory of God was not created because it's part of God's nature and his essence and he's eternal. To say it was created is just simply inaccurate. It's part of the emanation of him because in 1 Timothy 6 16 God dwells in an unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see.

This is his nature, the light that emanates out of him. It's not created. So it's just a fallacy in your part. I'm asking you a specific question.

How is it that Jesus, the person of Jesus who walked on the earth, how is it that he upholds all things by the word of his power? How's that? Let's go back. You kind of tried to say that I was wrong and I want to understand how I'm wrong. So let's not move on from the Shekinah glory of God. Okay, I'll explain you. You said Shekinah glory was created.

It can't be created. Yes, you did. It's the first thing. It was an emanation of God. It was a manifestation of God. It was the first thing, that light that we are told separates. What do you mean? What do you mean first thing? What do you mean first thing? Did it come into existence?

On the first day, the first day, something happened that separated itself from the darkness. Juanita. That's what we're told. Juanita, the problem here is you don't answer questions. Okay, I asked you a very specific question.

This is a problem I've seen with a lot of people. They don't understand basic logic. So I'm asking you very specifically the Shekinah glory. Did it come into existence? Period. Did it come into existence? It came into existence. It was the first thing that came into existence, the glory of God.

Okay, I got you. Yes, it came into existence. If it's the presence of God and emanates out of his essence, then how could it come into existence if it's part of his essence that emanates? Because I believe that that first thing that came into existence could be the pre-incarnate Jesus or word or whatever. You're not hearing.

You're not thinking. This apostasy is going to happen in part because people can't put two and two together. If the Shekinah presence is part of God's nature and his shining forth of his essence and God is eternal, then it necessarily cannot have a beginning. Just simple logic. If God's eternal and he emanates light, that's the Shekinah glory, then it can't be created.

It can't have a beginning. Simple. It's just called the glory of God. Okay, you're not listening. The presence, the light, you're not listening. The light that emanates out of God emanates because of it.

It's his nature. Is that right? Yes. When Jesus returns, he's going to come in the glory of God.

You don't understand. Where did you get this? Where did you get this stuff? It's in the Bible.

No, it's not. Where did you get this from? You didn't put it together yourself. Where did you get this from?

I absolutely read the Bible. In the beginning, God said, let there be light. You can't answer. We had a break. We need to move on. We need to move on. We need to move on. We've got callers ready.

Is this a goodbye? Yeah, we have to go with a break. We've got callers. But I'm just saying, contact me. Let's have a discussion. That's okay.

But you have to be able to answer basic questions, and you can't do that. This is a problem. Oh. Okay, but we've got to go.

There's a break. And goodbye. Thank you. Okay, okay.

All right, contact me. Hey, folks, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. Let's get on with the long waiting people, John, from Winston-Salem, here on the air. John. He's probably doing something else by now.

So we'll give him a little bit here. John, hello. John, John, John. Are you there?

I guess not. Let's put him on hold. We'll try Anthony from Japan. Anthony, welcome on the air. Hey.

Hey, how's it going, Matt? Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. Sure, no problem, man.

What have you got? So I'll mention this just before I mention my comment, my question. I am a Calvinist. Oh, okay.

Just so you know that before I ask my question. So my question is on double jeopardy. John Owen's famous argument in his book Death of Death and the Death of Christ, an argument that I've used many times against non-Calvinists, basically, that sin can't be twice punished, right? And actually, the first time I heard this argument used was when I was becoming a Calvinist with your debate with Sam on limited atonement. Oh, really?

So my question is, my question is, if sin, our sin, our guilt is imputed to Christ on the cross by all the elect, how is it then that we are still born dead in trespasses? Now, I know that it has to be applied. Okay. But if we were to think of this like a money transaction, like if I were to send $500 to your account, as soon as it goes from my account to yours, it's transferred. It's no longer in mine. It's on you.

So I guess my question just is, how does that work that our sin was imputed to Christ on the cross, yet we're still born dead in sin and under the wrath of God? There's a theology called now and then not yet, okay? So are you familiar with that? Yes, sir.

Okay. So if that's the case, and the issue of imputation works with both atoms, the first atom and the last atom. The first atom is Adam and Eve. The last atom is Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15, 45. So as the first Adam sins imputed to us by the trespasses of the one that many were made sinners, John 5, 19. So, too, our sin was imputed to Christ and was reckoned to him and then he died with it. When he died with it 2,000 years ago, you and I didn't even exist then. So the imputation of that sin was not retroactive but backactive. I don't know the right word for that, but yet we were not even existing yet.

So at the same time, we were not even existing when we fell in Adam because he's the federal head, he's the representative. So this is the now and the not yet, how it works in theology. All right, so if our sin was imputed to Christ, this is a legal issue. It's a legal issue that was done 2,000 years ago for the elect, but the elect can be granted faith at different points of time in their life, whether at 10, 15, 20 years, 30, 50, 100 years.

And at that point, they're then justified. Their sin's not canceled when they believe. It's canceled on the cross, that's Colossians 2.14. So we're justified when we believe, you know, Romans 3.28, Romans 5.1, et cetera.

Now, I'm trying to get your question right because I want to understand it specifically. So you said, how does our sin imputed to Christ, and I'm trying to get it all because I can answer because it's tough. How does our sin imputed to Christ work and yet we're still under the wrath of God?

Because of the now and the not yet. Because you can have someone who will be granted faith by God at the age of 50. He can be functionally still under the wrath of God. But because God works all things after the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1.11, and he works us preaching the gospel to that guy who gets saved at the age of 50, then the manifestation of the work of God throughout history and the ordination of all things that he's worked through his people and the preaching of the gospel brings that man, by God's appointed time and measure, to the place of justification.

But previous to that, he functionally is under the wrath of God because it's a now and the not yet issue. Does that help? Yeah, it helps. I guess it's just a tough one if you think of it kind of like a monetary transaction, right?

Maybe that might not be the best way to look at it, I guess. Yes. No, it's an analogy. I've also heard some people... No, it's good. No, it's good. I've also heard some... Go ahead.

I've also heard some people say that at the point that John Owen wrote that, on Puritan board at least people have signed this, that John Owen may have believed in justification at the cross, which I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what people were saying. I guess it's just hard if you look at a monetary transaction, right? If money leaves me and goes to him, then how am I still born under that sin? So I understand what you're saying with the now and not yet and application and stuff like that, but it's definitely an interesting question. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. So think about this. The central point of all history is the point of that cross. That's everything before and after it. Ultimately, that cross is the fulcrum of which history is balanced before and after. Jesus bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2.24, and he canceled the certificate of debt having nailed to the cross. That crucifixion, the propitiatory sacrifice, didn't make salvation possible. It didn't make forgiveness of sins possible. It didn't make the removal of the sin debt possible. It did that. It did it. It didn't make it possible.

It accomplished it. So when our sin was imputed to him, just like you'd said with a monetary transaction, a legal debt then is paid. So the legal aspect of it is taken care of, but that's not all of everything. Because Adam represented us and we fell in him, then there is also the imputation of sin to our account.

Now this is where it just gets, and it does, it just gets tricky. This issue of the now and the not yet is critical at this point. Because if a person isn't justified until he's 50, well, he can't be justified until he's born. So 2,000 years after the cross, he's born. But he's not even alive yet, and so until anyone is justified, they're functionally under that condemnation. But Christ, God, who ordains all things, knows exactly when he has ordained history to come to that place when that person will be justified. And at that point, the without error God, the one who ordains everything and it will come to pass, that's when that point of justification of belief is when he's justified and the full manifestation of the plan of God for that individual is made real. The full plan began before the foundation of the world, where he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. So Bob, at the age of 50, when he's going to get saved, get justified, get saved, okay, that plan was set in motion in the inter-trinitarian communion from forever ago.

And it has continued on. Christ had to enter into the office of his mediatorial work as the high priest in order to offer the sacrifice to redeem those who had been from eternity past ordained for eternal life, predestined and chosen and elected. So this is the eternal sense of the now and the not yet. The fulcrum point of history comes at the cross. Once the cross occurred, then the elect who were appointed by the Father, given to the Son and chosen for redemptive work, they are the ones who Christ redeemed. He's the one who Christ paid their sin debt for. Then it's just a matter of time for history to complete its fruition as people are born by the decree of God in certain places, certain time, the gospel preached, and then they are granted at faith, Philippians 1.29, by God.

The faith is in Christ, John 6.29. Let's say Bob happens to Bob at 50 years old. That's when then the fullness of the electing, predestining work of God is made manifest. So until that time, the fullness of time, his point of regeneration, up into that time, the fullness has not been manifested. The fullness is only there at that point, and even after that, there's more to come because of the regeneration of the resurrected glorification of the body, I should say. That's still part of all of that in the eternal decrees of God. So what we can see is if we were to stand back and look from left to right in the history of all mankind from eternity past, we would see the variations of Bob in election, predestination, being born, the gospel preached, granted faith, regenerated, and the whole bit. And these different conditions of existence are extant until the fullness of time of his regeneration and justification occur. So up to that point, functionally, since he's not actively in real time been redeemed, he's functionally under that, I don't want to use the word dispensation, but that mode of judgment that would still be upon him if he were to die.

But he can't die because God's not ordained that he would die at that point. So it's the now and the not yet in real time, and yet it makes perfect sense. Okay? That help? Yep, that helps.

Thanks a lot, Matt. All right. Okay. Okay, well, God bless, buddy. Yeah. All right, man. God bless.

One more thing, one more thing, one more thing. Yeah, sure. So I thought it was interesting that you brought up in there the inter-Trinitarian agreement between, you know, the persons of the Trinitarian attack in Salutis, which I think could be the best, the best, the best, undoubtable argument for Calvinism. And the reason why I say that is because the covenant of redemption ultimately dictates every single thing that happens, right, in terms of the incarnation, right, the cross, the intent of the cross, nature of the atonement, all of these things. So I feel like how come we as Calvinists don't kind of start with that, which gives us a broader, it helps us almost lay out a skeleton, right, where then election fits perfectly within that. And I'm trying to see if anyone has any material using the covenant of redemption and then tying sovereign election and stuff like that and Calvinism in there, because I think that when we just kind of talk, it's almost like presuppositional apologetics.

Like when we talk election, it's almost like piecemeal. Yeah. And instead, if we talk covenant redemption, it gives us the whole picture and ties everything together. I just did it. I just did it. Oh, you did? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I just did it with you. Yeah, you did.

Right, you did it on the phone, right. That's right. You just now did it, because that's Ephesians 1-4, the covenant of redemption, or some call the covenant of grace, is the inter-Trinitarian communion where the Father elected and gave in the Son. And the in Christ is a term of federal headship, which could only be there if God's electing, and electing can't exist without the work of Christ.

They're all ordained. It's the eternal covenant manifested, Hebrews 13-20. And then it just takes time for God's sovereignty to work.

That's why Ephesians 1-11, just a few verses later, says he works all things after the counsel of his will. Yep. Right. Yeah, okay. Yeah, exactly. And also, another thing, I see also as the elect being a love offering, Christ's bride, a love offering from the Father to the Son based off of his perfect active and passive obedience. A love offering, that one I'd hold off on. I don't know if that fits or not, but I didn't know what you mean by that, and we're about out of time in here anyway.

But yeah, so, okay, I could tell I like this. You study some theology, and you study the aspect of covenant. So the question then becomes, how many covenants are there?

I affirm mainly one, sometimes two. I'm a third covenant. Yeah. I'm a third covenant. So I would say covenant of redemption, covenant of works, and covenant of grace. Okay.

And those are legitimate. I'm less than a third, guys. Division.

I like the WCF, too. But I kind of lean towards one, if you understand what I mean, by God's ultimate covenant in the Trinity, and everything's manifested out of there. Yeah. We can talk. Yeah, it's just how we define things.

Yeah. We're out of time, but you've got to go. Oh, man, I love that. Hey, folks, sorry about that. Hope you enjoyed that. Theology is awesome. May the Lord bless you. Hey, give me a call tomorrow, and we'll talk to you then. God bless everybody. God bless everybody. Thank you.