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Hello! Welcome to Matt Slick Live. Glad to have you here with us. I'm sitting in for Matt Slick. If you don't know, he's on a tour to the Holy Land. He's finishing up and should be back, Lord willing, this coming Monday. I expect some praise reports and some interesting comments from him on his experience over there. Matt Slick Live will be live with Matt Slick next Monday, but today it's Charlie Spine sitting in for Matt.
Glad to have you here. Our show is caller-driven as far as the topics go. So let me give you the date today for the podcasters that might be watching later.
Today's Thursday, March 2nd, 2023. And if you're listening to us live or watching live, you can call us with your question at 877-207-2276. That's a toll-free number, 877-207-2276.
We appreciate your calls and look forward to them. In fact, there's a call on the line right now from Alex. Alex, you're on the air. You got me? Yeah, I got you, Charlie. How you doing? Oh, good. You're sounding well. What's your question on here?
Oh, yeah, before I give my question, I appreciate you guys' prayers. I just got back from Costa Rica. Oh, my. What were you doing down there? I was visiting a friend, and then I also visited a few pastors down there.
Man, a lot of cults down there. Oh, indeed. Yes, indeed.
And some old established ones as well. Yep. Yeah, so I was ashamed I couldn't get to call in sooner. I wanted to call when you were hosting the show, but I'm glad I got through today.
Oh, good. So what's your question today? So when I was down there, I was speaking to a pastor, and he was telling me how there's some of these landmark Baptist churches. I guess they believe they came from John the Baptist, and they're the only true church, and it's kind of like a cult-like group. I was wondering if you knew anything about the landmark Baptist. No, I see that there's one. Let's see, I see you're calling from Florida.
I see there's ones in Haines City, Florida, but I really don't know much about them. Yeah, they're new to me, and I'd have to study their statement of faith and their mission statement to really give you an accurate answer, but at this point, I really don't know much about them at all. But if you're reporting to me that they believe they're the only legitimate church right from John the Baptist, the Baptists do have a history of tracing their apostolic line all the way to John the Baptist. They've made a case for it. Not too many people have given it a lot of weight. Some have, and believe it wholeheartedly, and others say, well, it's a nice idea, but sometimes a nice idea gets beaten up by a bunch of brutal facts. So it'd be interesting to study more, but to tell you the truth, I can't honestly give you an answer one way or the other about their ministry.
Oh, I mean, that's okay, brother. The only thing I do know about them, too, is I guess something with the trail of blood or the trail of tears, does that ring a bell? It does.
I read a blurb about them 40 years ago, and it would be unfair for me to draw upon that memory to give you an answer, but I'm going to put it on our list, and I'm going to put it on Matt's list. I don't see that he's got an article about it online. Normally he does. Sometimes when he's on the air and a topic is brought up, I'll stick a link into an article, and he's written so many thousands of articles, it gives me a giggle when he says, oh, I forgot, I did write an article about that a long time ago. So I kind of tease him about that, but I don't find that among his articles at this point. But it's definitely a group that, if they're making those claims, it would be healthy for us to see why they make those claims. And if they hold up or if they leak, maybe when we meet someone from that ministry, we can minister to them and guide them in a more correct direction if they respect scripture as the word of God, and that's always a good starting point. And the next point is if they'll listen to that word of God and adjust themselves accordingly. I've often commented that my adjustments to the word of God are sometimes uncomfortable, but nevertheless, I know my responsibility is to stick with what he says, the way he says it.
No matter how uncomfortable it'll be, and I'll be blessed in the end is my expectation. So if we guide them in that fashion, and if you study more about them, please write to us at info, that's I-N-F-O, at karm.org. Matt takes questions during the show, and after the show, he'll look at the questions that go to info at karm.org, and I've let them stack up in these two weeks that I'm sitting in for him. So he's going to have a stack of them, and he'll field them pretty quickly. He can field them more quickly than I can.
He's just wired that way, thank goodness. But yeah, let's find out more about this group. Yeah, and I'll be visiting Matt in Idaho in a few weeks, so when I go up and see him, I'll send him... This is Alex from the Zoom, the after show.
Oh, okay. Have we met at Matt's before? No, no, I've only been on the after show a few times. Oh, only the after show, okay.
Yeah, only the after show. So when I see him... No, I've never met him in person, we've only spoke, and so I'm going to go see him, and I'll tell him a little bit, I'll connect him with the pastor, and yeah, I think it would be good for him to... Yeah, if you have their website and you can print out their statement of faith and their mission statement, something like that, he can examine it and tell from there how spot on they are. As a matter of fact, I recommend for people who want to know more about CARM, the inner workings of CARM, our statement of faith is available online, the CARM statement of faith. It's rather long because of the things we have to deal with from so many different directions, we have to make it very precise on the certain doctrines that we touch in the statement of faith, but I think you'll find the precision in the statement of faith worth going through its rather lengthy text. So people can read that and hold us to it. They can hold us to it if we go off that statement of faith, we expect the body of Christ to let us know, and we appreciate that kind of feedback.
We're open to that kind of criticism, always. Yeah, and just for the listeners out there, CARM.org is a great resource. I share that website, I shared it with the pastors in Costa Rica, I hear reports from people around the world because I travel a lot, so it's a great resource because the cults aren't just in the West, they're everywhere, they're all over the world.
That's right. It does my heart good to hear you say that, because many of the cults have a common thread flowing through them, and if you have to deal with one or the other or several at the same time, you're going to find, whoa, here's the same old lie. You can almost hear the hissing, some of the groups that say, you can become a god. You can become a god yourself.
I'm thinking, wow, that sounds like the snake in the Garden of Eden, just hissing his way. I'll tell you the truth, I've been with Matt over 40 years now as everything has developed into what it has, and I go into CARM and get lost sometimes going from topic to topic and trying to pin down things that I've been asked or I know I'm going to deal with somebody in the near future. I'll get in there and I'll get into the topical list, and sometimes I'll end up saying, gee, I feel hungry, I skipped dinner, oh, I get so into it. So it's a valuable resource, and I hope people do take advantage of it, and thank you for your kind words about that. That's what we're here for, and we're blessed by that report. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Hey, do I have time for one quick question or more?
Yes, there's nobody else hanging on. Go ahead. Okay, have you heard of a guy named Sean Griffin, a false teacher who denies the Trinity? Well, I haven't heard of him specifically, but if he denies the Trinity, then he is indeed a false teacher. As far as Christianity goes, if he's claiming to be a Christian, we have wonderful articles on CARM on how do we identify false teachers and a sister article to it. How do we identify false miracle workers?
And then there's another sister article that follows up, how do you protect your family against false teachers? All three of those series of articles are a measuring stick by which you can use with your Bible open to test such guys as this. If he's claiming to be Christian and denies the Trinity, then he's outside the Pale of Orthodoxy, as far as small-o Orthodoxy, the historic Christian faith. Yeah, I've heard of him, and I was wondering if Matt had any interaction with him, because he's deceiving a lot of people. I mean, he sells a study guide for the first Enoch, and basically, that's all I saw on his website, was he sells that, and it's hard to pin him down on his theology. I've had some friends who have had interactions with him, but he's very dangerous. He denies the Trinity, and if anyone out there is listening to him, I would be cautious, because he's getting some following online. Yeah, cautious is the word, yes.
Yeah. I'll have to ask Matt a little bit about him. I wouldn't be surprised if he's had some exposure to this guy and his ministry, because Matt's pretty deep on that. But that's a good word, caution. We approach everything with caution, with our Bibles open, like the Bereans, and we check what we hear every day to see whether or not it's so. And that's the noble-minded way, according to Paul, to approach your Christian faith. Dig your roots deep in the Word of God, and these fakers, these pretenders, will have less of a chance of deceiving you in the net of false teachings. And unfortunately, young Christians that aren't discerning, or young in their faith, may be influenced by the popularity of some of these false teachers.
And the popularity is a trap. So, anyway, thanks for your call, and we're coming up on a break. Join back with us. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hello again!
This is Charlie Spine, sitting in for Matt Slick on Matt Slick Live. You can visit Matt Slick's website, karm.org, where you'll find answers to many of the objections non-Christians have to the Christian faith. You'll find ways to witness to them the truth of God's word. That's karm.org. And you'll find a lot of tools that will help you, and even bless you, and ground you deeper in your Christian faith.
So I invite you to visit karm.org. Our last caller mentioned something. He had recently had a trip to Costa Rica and found that it was thick with cults and cultic movements.
This is no surprise. And let me give out the phone number, because we have open lines right now. If you want to call in and drive the topic, the number is toll-free, 877-207-2276. But regarding his call, we have a ministry outreach—you might call it a satellite outreach of a sort—several. We have a wonderful gentleman in Colombia who's got the Spanish version of KARM. So if you're more familiar with Spanish, or it's your first language, or you have friends or family that speak Spanish predominantly, you can send them to the Miapik.org. And Carlos there has put together many, many, many English translations, and he's a skillful translator. He's got wonderful articles there of his own as well that he works on in Colombia. And the ministry outreach down there, that is a sister organization to our KARM, actually is part of KARM. We try to support him when we can, and he's a very valuable asset to us. We have another valuable asset in Sao Paulo, Brazil. We have one, Dave Brito, and he has the Portuguese version of KARM and plenty of other material that's sound and biblically-based material, and the faith-building material. His organization is Defenda Afey.
I don't know exactly how to pronounce it, but my friend Ernie can post a link in, I believe, to the Portuguese website of thekarm.org. I'll tell you what. You go to Africa, and we've got several people in Africa that are using the KARM materials to witness to people there. There's plenty of error running around in Africa, plenty of these false teachers, plenty of these fake apostles who claim that they can have some authority over the people there in the church. And because they're well-funded and they're from the West, some of the people there regard them as having more credibility than the local outreaches, which are trying to reach their fellow brethren with the accurate information. Well, sometimes people disregard it in favor of the information that they get from the big-money Western organizations that aren't necessarily what you would call Christian sometimes. They are aberrant in their movements and teaching false doctrine of one sort or another, but they're running havoc. In Nigeria, we have a wonderful brother there.
In Malawi, we have a wonderful brother there. And all these people benefit from your support as you support KARM, which is easy to do if you have a mind to, and the Lord puts it on your heart. You can simply go to the website. There'll be a donate button on the home page, or you can go to, I'm looking for the link, I think it's karm.org slash donate.
I think it's as simple as that, but a surefire way is to get in from the website, the portal. Now, we have another call online, and it is Chuck. Let me go over here, and, uh oh, my mouse is a naughty mouse.
It's not behaving. Okay, here we go. Chuck from North Carolina. Hi, Chuck. This is Charlie Spina. Hi, Charlie.
This is Chuck. Hi. I just want to give you some information about the landmark Baptist church. The fellow was talking about B.H.
Carl, the author of Trail of Blood. Okay. That was what the landmark Baptists used for tracing the history of their church back to John the Baptist.
Okay. Now, they don't have any offerings like denying the Trinity, or, you know, the Jesus Christ, of course, that would be denying the Trinity, and things like that. You know, baptism by immersion, you know, independent Baptist church is what they are, would be an independent Baptist church movement, but in a place of their own, probably. Well, like I said, I don't know too much about them. I'm cautious about hearing reports about them that aren't supplied with documentation.
Like I told the other caller, I need a copy of their statement of faith and their mission statement to more accurately assess the direction they're going. Right. But at this point... Go ahead.
Go ahead, Charlie. No, I was going to say, since I'm ignorant of that right now, you know, some people think ignorant is a pejorative term. No, it's not pejorative. It's just an honest opinion. Hey, I'm not informed, and there's no vice, and it's not wrong to be ignorant. The thing that's wrong is to remain willingly ignorant. Now, that is a vice, and I try to avoid that. That's why I caution people and invite them to become more knowledgeable and study what the people are putting out from their official publications, and go from there comparing it with the Word of God.
But I hesitate to comment one way or the other until I have a question in hand. Yeah. Charlie, I was calling, and this is what I believe, because of the sentence of the homosexuality and the extremely bad way our educational system of color about exposing 10-year-old kids to all the filthy porn, I believe God is taking his hand off of America. He may very well be doing so, in fact, in the minds of some believers.
Yeah. Well, in the mind of many believers, in our minds, we wonder why he hasn't taken his hand off it earlier, because of the atrocities that is put up with in our society. It's not like we shouldn't expect these things to have come along, because it was predicted that these things would get worse and worse as we get nearer to the return of Christ.
But it's a wonder he has blessed us and kept his hand of wrath off of us for this long, in my opinion, but we need to continue to walk with him and pray with him. Hi! Welcome back to Matt Slick Live. This is Charlie Spine sitting in for Matt Slick, here to take your calls with questions about the cults, the occult, various religions around the world, questions about the Bible and the Christian faith.
The toll-free number we have for you to call in is 877-207-2276. For those of you who have been following us, or those who are new to CARM and the CARM ministry, our homepage is CARM. Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, CARM.org. You can go there and receive a lot of helpful tools and more information about the ministry of CARM and Matt Slick Live. For everyone, we've found that some of the social media platforms that we stream on are less than kind to the message of the gospel, and they don't go out of their way to make things easy for us.
And in fact, sometimes we've found that there's been some measure of censorship in our eyes. So we're moving a lot of our content now and transitioning to Rumble. Rumble seems to be a platform that is not afraid to allow free expression of ideas, and so in that light, we think we're going to kind of stick with Rumble as we gradually move away from Facebook and YouTube so much. We'll try to stay on there as much as we can, but if it becomes too much to be put up with, we'll just simply bail and go over to Rumble. So we invite you over to Rumble.
That's probably where you're going to be best able to contact us and interact with us for the live shows and so forth. So, as I was talking to the last gentleman, we've got a lot of things going on in our society that God has warned us of, and unfortunately, they seem to be opening up and manifesting more and more. Some of it is very difficult for us who have children and grandchildren, and in my case, great-grandchildren.
I dare not think of what the atmosphere is going to be like for them as they grow, if the Lord tarries. It's something that only the people of God can influence those around them with the attractiveness of the gospel message, with the message of love that Jesus Christ has brought to the world. If we can model that for the unsaved world around us, it may be the exact tool that God has meant you to be to bringing people into his kingdom. Somehow, in some way, we know that this happens at his will, not ours, but nevertheless, we're to try. We're to reach out to all men, because all men and women reflect the image of God, and they deserve a basic amount of respect. In part of respecting them as image bearers, part of that respect is to give them the gospel, every one of them. Every nation, as the Great Commission says, go out and do that. So we want to follow that Great Commission with the tools God has given us, with the places and situations he puts us in, whether it's at work or it's a blessed mom at home with her kids. It all works to our advantage and to the advantage of advancing the kingdom of God as we work together to honor him. There's no calls coming in right now, but I do invite you to call toll-free with your questions.
Toll-free to the number 877-207-2276. Also, if you've missed some of the programming in the past, thanks to The Truth Network, you can see over 600 of Matt Slick Live podcasts recorded and archived there through The Truth Network. It's amazing the technology that has made these things available, so we just bless those there that provide that service for the Christian community.
I'm looking for a question to come in, so in absence of a question, I'll pick my own topic, if you don't mind. One of the topics that has presented itself frequently is, you run into someone who sounds good, sounds Christian, seems Christian, uses Christian terminology, only to find out you're talking at cross-purposes. They're saying the word or the title, Jesus Christ. Well, the Scriptures warn us that many false Christs have gone out, and even warn us of a false Holy Spirit that we're on the lookout for. And a false gospel, and any other gospel but that was preached by the apostles, they've said it's anathema. Anathema is a damnation from God himself. And so it's the strongest term one could use about these false doctrines that goes out. Well, it goes out when these people are using Christian terms with their own particular definition behind those terms. And this is where the problem comes in, and we find ourselves butting heads with, say, the Jehovah's Witness, who says the word Jehovah simply means the Father, and Jesus was his first and greatest creation. We butt heads there. Some of them even openly say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Well, what are we to say to these things?
They're using the terms and names. Well, we can identify Michael the Archangel very quickly for what he is, an angel, a created being, in the little book of Jude, where it says Michael was disputing over the body of Moses with the devil. And dared not bring against the devil a railing accusation. Some translations said he dared not bring against him a blasphemous judgment.
Well, wait a minute. Jesus can quite easily, quickly, and wouldn't hesitate in rebuking the devil or judging him on the spot, but Michael the Archangel had to do something entirely right and correct and should be a model for us. He said to the devil, the Lord rebuke you. He had to invoke someone else, namely, the Lord Jesus Christ.
He didn't battle with him personally. When I find people that are rebuking the devil on their own, they might be well-meaning, but that's playing with fire. Invoke the name of Jesus. Invoke the authority of God.
And say, you know what? If this is a demonic oppression or whatever, the Lord rebuke it, okay? Even Michael the Archangel, a mighty archangel, knew better than to bring a judgment against the devil as he contended with him. So that's a lesson. Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.
That's all there is to it. Also, you will find easily in scripture that Jesus is given credit for having created everything. Well, the Father is called Creator, too. And in Job, especially, you'll find the Holy Spirit given credit for creation.
Well, how is that? Well, as the guy mentioned just a little while ago, there's a certain church that denies the Trinity. But it makes sense to us, as believers in the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are the one God.
It makes sense to us that all could be given credit, and they give credit back and forth to each other for what they've done and produced for us. So a denial of the Trinity is something that some people do misunderstanding what the Trinity is. They'll say it's a form of three gods or triathism, or, you know, they'll come up with things, and no, if you give it a proper representation, there's only one God. And we have the Father called God, the Son called God, and Jesus is called God, the Son of God, and God. They all share whatever deity is, okay? They share that nature of deity, unlike us, who are the creation. So be careful when you're dealing with people who sound Christian.
And if no one calls in, I'll give you some more comparisons that might be shocking to you from different faith circles that are not consistent with the Christian faith, that may be surprising to you, and give you pause and give you a heads up on some of the things to learn. It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hello again, welcome back to Matt Slick Live!
This is Charlie Spine sitting in for Matt Slick while he's on a trip to the Holy Land with some other Christians. Today's March 2nd, 2023, Thursday, and I expect him to be coming back and returning to the show this coming Monday. So, if you have something that you in particular want to ask him, he'll be back here then. Until then, you can call in with your questions, and I'll try to field them as best as I can from the Word of God. You can call toll-free at 877-207-2276.
That's 877-207-2276. We'll be glad to answer your question. I was talking just before the break about movements that use Christian language. One in particular I mentioned was Jehovah's Witnesses. Another popular group of people you'll run into are the LDS or the Mormon Church. They define Jesus as the literally first begotten Son to Elohim, a glorified man from another planet near a star named Kolob, and his wife, the Mother God.
We don't have her name in the LDS, they don't give it. But they literally give birth, she gives birth, to spirit babies. The first one in line was Jesus, and following him, his brother, the Devil, Satan, who became Lucifer. So these so-called spirit brothers in heaven come to earth, and all of a sudden you're thinking, what is this? Jesus is not the spirit brother of Lucifer.
No way! He's his creator. He commanded him, he rebuilt him, he threw him out of people.
This is not right. What is this about a father and a mother God coming from a planet near a star named Kolob? It's in the official works of the LDS Church, Doctrines and Covenants, you'll find this. They believe it's inspired scripture. Yes indeed. They'll go to battle on the fact that, yeah, that's where God comes from, and he had a God before him that he worshipped. And he was once a man with body, parts and passions, just like you and me. Well, wait a minute. If he was once like me, at any point, I can tell you he's not worth worshipping. Huh? And I dare say if he was like you, he's not worth worshipping either.
No, no, no. The God of Christianity is not this concept. The God of Christianity is the creator of all. He's eternal creator. He claims to be one and only one, and in scripture he says not only is he the only God, he knows of no other. So, I'm sorry to say, if the LDS want to claim that there is and indicate or hint that our God that knows no other is somehow ignorant or dumb, you've got a whole tangled web here. No, our God knows who he is.
He knows he's the only one. He says before me there was no God, neither shall there be after me, and that should settle it for the Christian, and it should inform the LDS that they're way off base. In fact, we have another caller on the air, and I think their question has to do with the LDS, so let me get to Apollo. Apollo, are you there? Yep, I'm here. Hi, Apollo.
Hey, how are you doing today? Wonderful, thank you. You have a question about the LDS? Yep, I sure do.
I don't think it's a coincidence that that's actually what you started diving into as I was calling. So, they believe that God and Jesus Christ are two different people. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. So, are they worshipping a different God, just because God is Jesus Christ, there's no two, there's not God and then Jesus Christ?
Exactly. Their confusion is exactly as you say, they think they're two different people, and we understand people to be what people are, and when in fact, to be more precise, Jesus and God the Father are two different persons. Persons is an altogether different distinction, okay? A person is not like, doesn't necessarily have to be like us, a tangible, physical being. God in the flesh is Jesus when he incarnated became tangible in that sense, and that's why we call him the God-man in the hypostatic union, he's fully God and fully man, he never gives up his deity while remaining also humanity. So, persons are simply cognizant, reflective egos. They know of themselves, they know that there's another outside themselves, or of most of themselves, and they know how to relate in such a way. The Holy Spirit is somehow given some short attention, but the Holy Spirit too is a person.
We know that because he can be lied to, he can be grieved, he can be quenched. You can't lie and grieve some force of God, you can only lie to a person, so yeah, they confuse persons with people. Just for the example, you give them the idea of Lucifer.
If you don't mind, could I follow it up with another question on the same exact topic? So, how exactly would you try to get through to these folks, because they're clearly heavily indoctrinated from a young age. How would you go about exactly trying to explain to them that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, he came down, he is the perfect Lamb, there's none perfect but God. What they want to try to do is indoctrinate you, but how would you get through to them? That's my question. Well, the first and most effective way I found when I first dealt with the LDS is that my wife and her girlfriend cooked the missionaries some cherry pies and brought them over and delivered them to them.
So they got the idea right away that we didn't hate them, and she could do that like no other person, certainly not like I could. But to be serious, what we found, and this may shock some people, is I studied as deeply as I could the Book of Mormon, and found in the Book of Mormon things that were contrary to what they teach, and also which were in line with historic, sound Christianity that opposed what they teach. You won't find their pet doctrines in the Book of Mormon, you really won't, because it was most likely written by a guy named Solomon Spaulding near Palmyra, New York, where I used to live, and Solomon Spaulding had a relationship with a printer there where Oliver Cowdery worked, and Oliver Cowdery was one of Joseph Smith's first witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This man used to write religious adventure novels, they had a religious theme to them, and he used to entertain his family. Solomon Spaulding was known for this kind of stuff, but after he passed away, and I think he passed away over in Pennsylvania, and the bulk of the text of the Book of Mormon remained with this printer near Palmyra, New York, somehow I think Joseph and Oliver got a hold of it, and used it to form a new religious view, and they warped it, and it morphed and evolved as they went, and you can show from their own materials how it evolved. So sometimes I'll go to their materials directly, I'll go to a couplet that was made by one of the presidents of their church called Lorenzo Snow. He said, and it's something they repeat even to this day, as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become. And it's a famous couplet within the LDS church.
They do indeed believe that their God, the Father, was once a man, and that you, if you obey the laws and ordinances and commands of the LDS church, may become a God yourself, and exalt it into a deity. So their own material is something I find best to use with them, because they don't have a suspicion that you're making this thing up. Matt Slick's website, KARM, has wonderful documentation from LDS sources, and I often give the link to the official LDS archives, so that the LDS I talk to can check me out and see that I'm not making it up. In the old days before the internet, I used to have all kinds of photocopies I'd have to carry around with me to show them, no, you've probably got this book in your library at home, here's the title page of it, and here's the page I'm quoting from, go check it yourself, make sure I'm not taking it out of context or misquoting it.
We would have to challenge them in that sense. Now the challenge is much more streamlined with the advent of the internet, and they can have access to these works where Brigham Young stood in the temple at Salt Lake, and he says, I'm going to reveal something to you that was revealed to me by God. So in other words, he's standing in the pulpit in the church there in Salt Lake City, he says, and this is what God revealed to me and I'm revealing to you, that Adam is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. Well, he called it a doctrine revealed to him by God. LDS will say, no, that was the Adam-God theory. Well wait a minute, Brigham Young would slap you if he tried to insist that upon him. He said, no, this is doctrine that came from me from God and I'm revealing it to you, and according to the LDS belief, when their prophet is standing in that pulpit in Salt Lake, that he can't be deceived or misguided by evil. He's given it authoritatively. Adam-God, he's our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do, well that would get you kicked out of the LDS church today if you tried to make them swallow that. It's morphed, it's evolved, it's inconsistent, it's in some places silly and ludicrous, in other places it's deadly to the eternal state of people's souls who go in understanding this and fully accepting it. There's other LDS, and you don't want to count this out, there's other LDS people that are grown up and are cultural LDS and don't know the real deeper teachings, but the ones that do are going to have no excuse in front of God when it comes time to say, look, no, you had it wrong, you got it wrong, and Charlie Spine and Carm told you where to go to see it and prove it, and you didn't do it, and I just don't want to be in their shoes, but hopefully you guys can, that's a good question, call back again tomorrow.
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