Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. This weekend, I rebuilt my computer. Good thing that I'm a computer tech, or ex-computer tech, so I can build them, no big deal. So I reformatted everything, and I mean started from scratch, and it took probably six to seven hours to reload everything and get everything working back. I did a few things on and off, and a few odd things here and there, but hey, it's done.

So there you go. Now, I uploaded a video to CARM videos today, and it's no big deal, but I uploaded a video about the church service that I went and saw about two, three weeks ago, the United Pentecostal Service. And I was writing an article, as is often the case, when I write one article, sometimes three or four will kind of like sprout like weeds, and I've got to write this or write that. So I wrote an article on David K. Bernard, just a real brief article about our encounter, and I released it today and put a video up, and hopefully the link and everything there, and it works. And I put a picture up and stuff like that, so no big deal.

So oneness, oneness Pentecostal denies the doctrine of the Trinity. All right, so I have spent, I finished it, remember I've been talking to you guys about this, and I finished this article, but now I have to release it, so it's just polishing a few things. And I did a very in-depth study on, let's see, how do I describe it?

I did a really study on the relationship between the Father and the Son, and I just found verses where, you know, Father and Son speaking to each other, next to each other, same time, this, that, whatever it is. And I wanted to just see what I could learn. Sometimes what I'll do is I will just start a project, a theological project, where I want to see if I'm going to learn anything, I want to see if I'm going to pick anything up.

And this one wasn't as profitable as I had hoped it would be, but still it was profitable and I did learn some good stuff out of it. And also, yeah, there we go, and also, yeah, so much stuff, so much stuff opened and working on. And I started another article where talking about yes-no answers, do you affirm or do you say yes to this or no to that?

If you say yes, you go further with no than this. And I'm working on that with oneness as well, trying to work against the cult of oneness of Pentecostal theology because it is a cult. So there you go.

There's a lot of stuff out there that's not good. Today I had a good conversation with a guy about women pastors and elders and we went through some theology. We called the office and talked to him about that. And I told him, and I'll do it again, I told him that in 17 years of being on the radio five days a week for an hour a day, what I have done repeatedly during those years is to offer a challenge to a pastor, a theologian, whoever, who wants and would be willing to debate me on whether or not women can be pastors and elders.

And the topic would be does the Bible support women pastors and elders? And here I go again saying the same thing. And I'll just say that in 17 years, I've not had a single person that I recall ever saying yes. Maybe someone's emailed me, you know, it's buried in 5,000 emails, but I've never heard that I know of any person saying, yeah, I'll debate you on it.

And, you know, so the challenge goes out again. If you have anybody who wants to debate me or you want to debate me on this issue, we can talk. We can set something up because I'd be willing to, but I'll tell you, it has to be, what does the Bible say? What does the Bible support? And women are not to be pastors and elders.

So I'm going to just say it again like I normally do. If you attend a church where there's women pastors and elders, you should leave. You should, because it's not biblical.

And you don't want to, hopefully, attend a church, a so-called church, where they're violating scripture. You don't want to do that. And if you go on, I can talk about that some more, some other time. But anyway, there you go. Hey, if you want to give me a call, we have five open lines, 877-207-2276. I'll be, let's see, there we go, that's interesting.

Yeah, good. So, like I said, five open lines, 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call.

All right, hope you all had a great weekend. I did some discussions with some atheists over the weekend, and had an encounter with a semi-well-known, in that circle of things, atheist guy, who unfortunately was very disingenuous, very condescending, and could not understand the basics of logic. In fact, this is something I've encountered repeatedly.

I will go to varying venues, and, you know, in Oculus, on the metaverse, I'll go to the chat areas and talk. It's worse there. That's the worst place I've ever seen. People there repeatedly cannot understand the basics of logic, the basics of thinking, critical thinking. The reason I bring this up is because, you know, I was talking to a guy, I think it was yesterday for a little bit, about God, he's an atheist, and I said, well, it's either the case that the universe is infinitely ill, or it's not the case that it's infinitely ill. He goes, don't give me that philosophy. No, no, no, it's just an issue of logic.

Would you agree? And he said, no, I don't agree with anything. And then they started to attack. And so this is, you know, it's what happens. It's the kind of thing that I'm kind of accustomed to, to be attacked for just bringing up truth.

And then when you say, look, I'm just telling you the truth, I'm trying to help you out. Oh, you're condescending. So this is more and more happening as I've participated in varying chat rooms. I've noticed that people are becoming more rude than ever and less able to think critically than ever. It just happens, you know.

I'm not saying that Christians are perfect thinkers either. But boy, I'll tell you, the hostility sometimes is just, it's ridiculous. All right, well, no big deal. We have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get on the line on the air here with Matt from North Carolina. Matt, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, I had a quick question for you. I was wondering, are women worship leaders undimical? And if so, where would I find that in the Bible? So I don't see anything in Scripture that says a woman can or cannot be a worship leader. We know that the Bible says women are not to be pastors or elders, technically, or deacons. So if I were a pastor of a church, I would not have a problem with a woman being the one who's in charge of the worship team. However, she's not to be in any position of authority, teaching authority, because that's what the context is. Right.

And so if she were to get up and say, okay, everybody, before we do this song, I'm going to teach you some theology about whatever, I'd say, okay, you're out of line. Okay, and this is not a position right there. And so other than that, no big deal. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right.

Well, I was just calling to make sure, just check, because the service I go to, they have kind of rotating worship teams, so I was just kind of curious that happened. Okay, cool. Thank you. Sure. No problem, man. God bless.

All right. Three open lines if you want to give me a call. 877-207-2276. Martin from Virginia. Martin, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. Thanks for your ministry. Oh, praise God. You had mentioned something earlier about women and pastors and, you know, tongue in cheek here. What if it was a female pastor that was identified as a male?

Would that still be a go? You know, I knew it was coming, and I was ready to chuckle, because you know what? But here, I'm going to tell you what. Someone showed me a verse yesterday. I was talking to him on the phone, and no, it's Jeremiah 30, verse 6. And God's rebuke, I think I started the whole context. These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah, for thus says the Lord, I have heard a sound of terror, of dread, and there is no peace. Verse 6, ask now and see if a male can give birth.

Why do I save a man with his hands on his loins as a woman with childbirth? And so, I went, hey, that's cool, because this is obviously rhetorical, and the answer is no. So, what are you going to do? I know a guy who says he's actually a lesbian trapped in a man's body, which is why he likes women. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Well, he was tongue in cheek also, you know. Because then, you know, what are you going to do? That's why I like women.

The lesbian is stuck in a man's body. That's a corundum. You said you had a discussion with an atheist, and you kind of glazed over real quick about the universe being infinite. And I didn't catch whether you were saying the universe was infinite, and they were denying it. No.

Okay. So, here's a principle. Every event and every fact stands in causal relationship to previous events or previous facts. So, let's just use the word fact. All facts exist in relationship to others. There is no fact that is independent of any other context. So, I'm sitting in a chair talking to you on the radio.

So, sitting, chair, talking, radio. Four different ideas about facts that come together, we have the concept. And so, no fact just exists on its own. Now, except for the fact of God's existence, which he's, by definition, he exists because he exists.

But at any rate, it's his nature to exist. So, when we talk about this, what we're talking about is a causal chain. Not only are we talking about causal chains in the physical sense, but also in factuals, in logic, and things like this. Things exist because other things exist. So, events that occur, occur because they were caused to come into existence. Alright, this is a general principle. So, think of causal chain. All facts stand in causal chain to a previous event.

The further back in time you go, the narrower the causal chain. You can have, for example, a rock rolling down a hill, and it hits other rocks. Now, the first rock it hits, that's two rocks rolling.

Then those two hit two more, that's four, then eight, sixteen, thirty-two. And it just expands out like a triangle. The further in time you go, the more events are the result of the initial event. You can't go back infinitely, because if you go back up the hill, it has to get narrower.

It can't become wider. It's just nonsensical. So, this is the basic principles. So, the universe came into existence. It's either the case that the universe is infinitely old, or it's not the case that the universe is infinitely old. There's no third option. It's either the case that, or it's not the case that. And it's the identical statement. The universe is infinitely old, or it's not infinitely old.

There's only two options. So, there's a principle called a disjunctive syllogism. When you have two things, the universe is infinitely old, or it's not infinitely old. And you negate one, the other is automatically verified.

It's called the impossibility of the contrary. Okay, with me so far? So, having said all that, when we get back, I'll tell you why it's important, and how I use it. Hey folks, hold on. We'll be right back. After these messages, we have three open lines. 8-7-7-2-0-7-2-2-7-6. Give me a call. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 8-7-7-2-0-7-2-2-7-6. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show.

Two open lines. If you want to give me a call, 8-7-7-2-0-7-2-2-7-6. Give me a call. All right, Martin, are you still there?

Yep, still on. All right, did you follow what I said? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I've gotten some deep discussions about infinity and minuscule. About actual and potential? Have you done actual and potential infinites? Potential infinity? No, but I think there's some parallels to that, but we haven't specifically said actual or potential. No, you need to study the terms actual, infinite, and potential infinite.

Let me explain what they are. So, an actual infinite, they say, for example, you have a line between your two tips, your fingers. It doesn't matter how long the line is. There's an infinite number of points on that line. Well, half that line also has an infinite number of points. How can half of the infinite be equal to the whole of the infinite? It's called an actual infinite. There's other problems like this, or paradoxes.

Now, the potential... That's the discussion we've had. I took the point of, you have line AB that has an infinite number of points, but then you have square that's made up of four lines of B, and it has an infinite number of points. But you can't compare infinite. There's no one infinite that's different than another. Infinite is sort of...

Wait, wait, wait. You're saying a lot of stuff really fast, and hold on, hold on. There are different kinds of infinites. There's an infinite in direction. There's an infinite in decimals, for example, in mathematics.

Like pi goes on infinitely. So there are different kinds of infinites. So you need to understand what that is, and also a potential infinite. A potential infinite is... But the term infinite... I mean, we have to discuss the term infinite as a whole. Whether you go small, minuscule, or you go big, infinite still means one thing.

Uncountable, ever-growing, always increasing. Nope. I'm trying to help you out. I'm trying to help you out. No, no, no, no. I'm trying to help you out. You need to study actual versus potential infinite.

Okay? So study those. Because an actual infinite is immeasurable, but a potential infinite, whenever you stop to measure it, has a finite number. But they're both... once potential infinite, the way time, one second after another second after another second, you have a beginning of right now, and then as long as you continue on in the future, it has a potential of being infinite. Whenever you stop to measure it, it has a finite number. So potential infinites can be measured, actual infinites cannot. This is the difference.

Well, that's correct, but then you... but now you're timeboxing it. You're trying to define infinite as infinite now, infinite small, infinite the next day. And infinite, you can't... there's no infinite that's different than another infinite. Infinite is the quality of infinite and finite. But I already said, and you already agree, there are different types of infinites.

Okay. Well, as now, as you said, you can say that, yes, but once you count it, it's not infinite. You can't have the quality of infinite. That's a potential infinite you're talking about. Okay, you need to study this, okay, I'm just helping you out.

You can go to Carmen, read up on it if you want. But these are important concepts, talking with atheists. And then once I just establish that the universe...

I'm sorry? No, I agree, it would be, especially when discussing with specifics, like in your context, as someone on the atheistic slant. Mm-hmm. And so when I establish that the universe had a cause, because it can't be actually infinite, actually infinitely old, therefore what cause it's come into existence, whatever cause it's come into existence with either personal or not personal, just do this as you go back and then there's ways to argue. I've used this in debates before, but the point is, atheists don't have an ultimate, which is an ultimate starting point that begins the causal chain in which all facts operate. And so they can't ultimately justify any knowledge or absolutes or truths.

And this is one of the reasons atheism is so lacking. Okay? Yeah, yeah, that point of reason is sort of a fallacy, and I agree, you bet. All right, thank you, Matt. All right, big man, keep studying, okay? All right. All right, talk to you later. I agree, I will, once I get back on to CARM, you got it. All right, sounds good. Guys, I got banned from CARM.

You mean the two? Okay. You mean the forums, not CARM, which I can't get into the forums. I've got to figure out how to get back in. All right, let's get to Scott from Utah. Scott, welcome, you're on the air.

Hi, Matt, thanks for taking my call. I had a question about the statement that you made regarding churches with female pastors or elders. I think you said that people in those churches should leave those churches, is that correct?

Yes, I did, and I'll say it again. If you're attending a church with a woman pastor, woman elder, you should leave. Okay, so my question is, in Revelation chapter 2, there was a prophetess named Jezebel, and she was seducing people into false doctrine. The Lord didn't tell people to leave that church. And also in Matthew 7, when the Lord warns us about false prophets, he doesn't tell us to leave churches with false prophets, just to be aware of them. And I think in 1 Corinthians 6 there is a way of getting people out of churches. I think the better path, in my opinion, would be to wait them out, because most of those people eventually leave, and just pick a new series of elders and their teachers. What are your thoughts on that?

So I've got questions for you. Do you approve of women pastors and elders? Oh, I think 1 Corinthians 14 is pretty clear. Okay, let me ask you another question. Do you approve of women pastors and elders?

The answer is yes or no. No, 1 Corinthians 14 is very clear that it's not acceptable. No, 1 Corinthians 14 is not talking about that. Okay, so women pastors and elders, is that a 1 Timothy 3 and Titus chapter 1, 1 Timothy 5? So women are not to be pastors and elders. If you stay in a church that has women pastors and elders as a man of God, then what you're doing is lending your approval as the head of your family to that sinful situation. Okay. Well, I understand that perspective. Do you have a particular scripture that tells us to lead churches?

No, I don't have it. Those two scriptures that I quoted, but really doesn't tell us to. Well, let's see, there is something about, come out of her. And let's see, I heard another one saying, come out of her, my people, that you may participate in her sins and receive her plagues. That's just, you know, Revelation 18, 4. I could probably go back to different verses and find something, in the name of Jesus Christ, come out of her and come out of that.

Oh, that's a demonic force. So the idea is that we're to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness. Now with Paul, the apostle is teaching that women are not to be in positions of authority in the church context. And you say, there's nothing to do, we get to leave.

I'm telling you, you got to leave. Now if you want me to find a verse, I'll find some stuff that talks about abandoning the apostasy. You don't want to participate in a church that's going bad, a church that is bad with a pastor who's open and an elder's woman. So let me ask you, would you stay in a church that has women pastors and elders? That's a great question. And my answer would be that in Revelation 2 and 3 there are a bunch of churches, some good and some bad, and the Lord doesn't tell us to leave any of them.

Okay, let me ask you a question. Oh, so the answer is, no you wouldn't. So then, what you're doing then, what would you be tithing to that church? No, I would be going to the pastor or the elder and asking them about 1 Corinthians 14. I'd probably get kicked out of the church for confronting them.

1 Corinthians 14 is not about women pastors. Let me find the verse, I'm sorry. Alright, hold on, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned folks, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276, here's Matt Slick. Alright everybody, welcome back to the show. Alright Scott, are you still there?

Yeah, hey Matt, I'm sorry about the delay, it's causing some problems. I'm trying to listen, but there's a new way. So the scripture I found was 1 Corinthians 14 verses 34 through 38, that's the verse I'm quoting, but if you don't think that's about women pastors, I don't want to argue about it.

That's just what I'm looking at. What do you think about it, what scriptures do you think about it? Wait, 1 Corinthians 14, 34?

Through 38. Yeah, women are to keep silent in the churches, not permitted to speak. Yeah, that's a difficult one to get through because it's other verses where it says to be hesukiyya, which means to be more quiet. And this is sagao, which means absolute silence.

And there's debate, well, debate. There's lack of clarity about commentaries, what this means and how it's to be understood. But I think what's going on here from the context is that they want to know anything as their husbands at home, for it's improper for women to speak in church. It looks like it's a cultural context because apparently in that culture, what happened was the women would sit in the back, the men would sit in front of the church. That's just how it was, right or wrong, just how it was. And so it would be problems they couldn't hear, they didn't understand. They would shout out or try and move forward to speak to the men, the husbands up forward to find out, make comments. And it was getting out of hand and Paul was saying, keep quiet, don't say anything, don't do anything.

That looks like it's the concept. Now, during the break I was looking for any verses that says just leave. And I think you have a good point because the Bible does say, talk about confronting. And as Matthew 18 says, what you should do, and I'm going to stand correction here, because I need to say this, if you go to a church with a woman pastor and elder, you need to go confront them first and then split because you wouldn't stay in a church where, for example, the pastor is committing adultery or the pastor is an open atheist or homosexual. You don't want to be participating in that. You've got to take off.

But if a Christian is doing something wrong and they're preaching, or excuse me, a woman pastor and elder, you should go to them and say, this is what the scripture says. And so you go to them and then if they don't respond truthfully and properly, then what business has light with darkness, it's time to go. Okay. Anyway, what else?

Do you got anything else? No, that's exactly what I think, Matt. I've tried doing that in the past, but I didn't do the second part where you bring somebody else. I kind of just let myself get kicked out.

So I should definitely look around in the church for more people and then try to confront them again. Hey, thanks for taking my call. Hold on. See, I like what you're saying. I like what you're doing. And you sound like the kind of guy who takes it seriously. And that's a good thing. And so I'm the kind of guy who does that too. And so I would go to the pastor and go, what about this?

What about that? Now, if it's sin, okay, we're going to get other people involved. If it's just difference of opinion, eh, you know. But this is an issue that's clearly taught in scripture. Women are taught to be pastors and elders and the Bible teaches that. So when a pastor, when a church has a woman pastor and elder, the first step is you go confront them. You go talk to them. If they don't want to listen, then split. And go with others to confront them as well. But then why would they be there at the church going anyway if they're going to take others? So you see, it's a problem. People become more biblical as they learn. And they go, wait a minute, this is wrong.

And then they go in front. That's okay. All right, buddy? Thanks, Matt. Have a nice day, Matt. You too, man. God bless.

All right. Let's get to, oh wait, four open lines. Give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's talk to Sandra, Virginia. Hey, Sandra, welcome. Hi, good afternoon.

Thank you. Okay, so I have a question. If women are not supposed to be elders or pastors, then how could they be prophecies? How could they be what? Prophets like Deborah. A prophet is not a pastor or an elder.

It's a prophet. But a prophet is teaching. No, a prophet was in the Old Testament.

And the Old Testament covenantal system is done away with, with the abrogation by the blood of Christ. And you go to Hebrews 9, 15 through 16. In the New Testament, there's also prophets. In 1 Corinthians 14, people have prophecy and things like that. But they are to be judged, or the prophecies are to be judged by the congregation. Paul, when he writes specifically about church order, he forbids the woman from being in those positions.

Okay? But it specifically states a woman cannot. No, it doesn't say a woman cannot. Paul says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over men, but remain silent, for Adam was first created. That's 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13. The next chapter over in 1 Timothy 3, 15. But in case I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the household of God. So he's telling them how they're to behave in the household of God. So let me read a verse to you again. 1 Timothy 2, I'm going to ask you if you agree with this scripture or not. 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13. Paul says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over men, but remain quiet, for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve.

Now he's giving instruction to the church, so do you agree with that or not? At that time, women didn't. So it says, for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve, so it's not cultural. It's created or ordered by God's hand. So, for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. So, Paul is not tying it to anything cultural. He's specifically tying it to the created order from God himself. Now, let me ask you.

Because I thought God created Eve so that Adam would not do it alone. That's a different issue. So, that's a different issue. Paul's raising this issue. Paul brought it up that man was... Okay, hold on.

Didn't he grow up? When you say cultural, he was a Jewish man. So, in their culture, that's how it was. But then, I'm telling you, it's not cultural because he ties it to the created order from God himself. So it's not cultural. For you to continue to say it's cultural is to ignore what I'm saying here out of the text. For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve that removes the culture aspect. Okay?

Removes it. So, Paul says... Paul is 13 and what was the other one? This is 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13.

Okay? 1 Timothy 3, 15, he's giving instructions to the household of God. Also, if you go to 1 Timothy 5, 17, the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor. Especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. So elders are preachers, a pastor is a preacher, a pastor is an elder.

Okay? Now, what Paul says is that in 1 Corinthians 3, starting at verse 2, an overseer, which is the word episkopos, that's the bishop out of it, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, andra mias gunaikas, is what he's saying there. Andra, it means a man, an adult male person.

It can mean husband. The husband of one wife, that's what an overseer is. The same thing with deacons, must be men of dignity. Then when you go to Titus, Titus 1, this is what it says, for this reason, verse 5, this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife.

How can women fit that? Well, again, back then, and you keep saying it's not a cultural thing, but back then, everything in the Bible was surrounded by men. So if you look at it in that context, then there would be no reason for me to read the Bible because it's written for men. No, it's not.

I'm sorry, but that's not it. Paul is giving instruction in what people are to do and believe. Now let me ask you, are you going to submit to what Paul the Apostle said when he says he does not allow anyone to teach or exercise authority?

He ties it with the created order. Are you going to submit to what Paul the Apostle said or are you not going to? I'm going to have to do more research on this because I'm very confused because we're all to be missionaries.

We're all to go out and teach the Gospel. Yes, of course. Well, then why should they listen to me? I'm a female.

No. These are arguments that I will be getting. No, no, no, it's not a good argument.

I've already been out on the street trying. It's not a good argument. It doesn't mean you can't go out there on the street and preach and teach. It's that you can't be an elder in a church. It's an office.

You can't hold the office. Women are not to be in those offices. Well, husband and wife, deacon and deaconess. They're not supposed to be deacons either.

They're not supposed to be deacons either according to scripture. I'm just telling you the word of God says. No, I get what you're saying.

But as a male, you would have no way of understanding me. Well, we've got a break. Hold on Sandra. We'll bring that back. I want to keep talking to you. All right. Hey folks, we'll be right back.

Two open lines. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

Music. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the last segment of the show.

We have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. All right, Sandra.

You still there? Yes, sir. Okay. So, I can tell you like the idea of women pastors and elders, huh?

I'm on a fence on that, okay? So don't judge me on that. It's okay. I was raped at 19. I needed my church more than anything.

No one needed it, not even my own parents. And the elder of the church came to talk to me, and he condemned me. He didn't know why I was pregnant. He condemned me. And then the elders of the church told my family that they were sorry, that disgrace and dishonor that their so-called daughter brought upon family, but that they were still welcome there. And I just feel that a female would have handled that whole heck of a lot better than a man did.

Probably, yeah. Because if anybody needed the church more than an unmarried teenager, I was 19, yes, but a teenager that is pregnant, they need the church. They don't need the church kicking them out. And the men of the church made their decision. Yes, sir, they did. What church was this? It was a Southern Baptist church. Wow.

Yes, sir, they did. My mother and father and their kids, the rest of the brothers and sisters were all welcome back there, but not the so-called daughter that brought pain to the family. Well, that's, yeah, that makes me mad. And I just feel like a female would have handled that far more better, and I may have even come clean and expressed to her what happened, but I got raped by a man. I'm not going to sit there and spill all my beans out here for a man.

Yeah, I understand that. And I just feel like I've been told growing up that when you read the Bible, it says men, men, men, but it does not disclose against women. God is not against women.

Of course he's not. The women do just as much, and this saying that if a woman's running a church or if a woman is an elder, walk away from it. There are so many situations that a man just cannot step in and handle. And when you have a husband and a wife that serve as deacons and deacons, he can handle that.

I understand that. This is an issue of the Word of God, and I'm sorry about what happened, and it makes me mad. If I'd have known about this and the pastors treated you like that, I would have rebuked them. It's ungodly to do that.

It's just not right. But it doesn't justify having a woman pastor. What it does mean is that you could have women in the church, in the ministry, who deal with those kinds of things. They don't have to be pastors and elders to do that. Well, the church I went to, like you said, all the women do not lead.

If you're teaching, you do not listen. So they didn't have them. We didn't have any female teachers. We didn't have any female leaders.

We didn't have any females of anything. They can know that women can do lots of stuff in the church. They just can't be pastors and elders, and they shouldn't be deacons either.

That's it. They can run all kinds of ministries. They can do all kinds of helps.

They can do all kinds of things except for those things. That church isn't just those positions. And just so you know, I'm not against women at all. In seminary, there was a time when we had the classes open for one week to all the public, and they brought in a woman to teach in the seminary, in a very, very strict seminary, a very good one, and to teach about what women can do in the church.

And I thought, this is awesome. I was the only male in that entire class, which really upset me. I think there is a bit of chauvinism in the church, and men need to... There's a whole lot of it. There is. There absolutely is. I gave up on church for a long time.

Absolutely. And I'm just now getting back into it. And I'll be honest, my passion is treatment. I don't want to get out there where he told us to go.

And I've got an associate in seminary, but it's with ISOM, so the associate doesn't count for anything unless you get your bachelor's. I can't afford that. I'm a single mom with adult special needs son, so that's who I take care of, is my adult son. And their father left them, so I didn't leave the father.

The father left them. Let me jump in. You're saying a lot of things here, and I want to just say I agree with you. There's a lot of bad stuff going on out there. I don't know if you've heard me very much on the radio, but I talk about the necessity of men being godly men and being good leaders and being providing and protecting and to lay their lives down the way Christ did. Not to be someone who's demanding and not to be someone who is arrogant. Too many men fail, and it's a truth. They're supposed to emulate Jesus Christ who sat with the women, who spent time with the women.

In fact, I tell people this. Women were the ones who figured out who Jesus was before the men did. They're not to be underestimated.

They're not to be underappreciated. The woman was the first one he exposed himself to after the resurrection. That's right, because they were there taking care of things. And where were the men?

They were hiding. And so the women went and talked to the men. Women are greatly revered in Scripture.

In fact, I tell people this every now and then. I like the idea of standing up when a woman comes into a room. And the reason is because that's the gender that bore the Messiah.

That is incredible. And so I think women need to have that, but they're not to be pastors and elders. And men need to step up instead of sit down and be leaders and be godly leaders. Maybe you would have more doing so if the men would do it.

And maybe more women are doing it because they're not doing it. That's right. You're saying it. I've said that so many times. The women are stepping up because the men aren't.

Right. I go to a church. Now we have a women's group. And the pastor's daughter, Rosalinda. She's not to be a pastor. She's not to be a pastor.

You need to go confront her and tell her she's not to be a pastor. Have them call me up. We can talk very nicely, very politely over the phone. I'll come out there.

I'll fly out there. I'll debate them. The thing is, it's not her position. She should not be called a pastor.

Like I said, I've got to go and sit and talk with her on that. Oh, yeah. And you can go to my website. My last pastor, I don't know if you probably know about him. The whole world knew about him. Pastor Geronimo from Richmond, Virginia, the Rock, who supposedly had affairs with teenagers back in Texas. And that's where he's at now in prison.

He should be in prison. Yeah. Well, look, here's the thing.

Theologically, women... All the pastors then were men. Okay, okay. Hold on. Hold on. I don't know.

They just loaded over everybody. Well, no, not all do. I know pastors that are godly men that would lay their lives down to protect women. I know lots of men like that. I know. Well, my pastor now would.

He would. But the thing is, Sandra, you can't just represent all of them by these bad ones that you're focusing on. And I know that you were wronged. Can I ask you a question?

And if it's too personal, just so you don't want to answer. That's okay. But when you were 19, did you have that baby? Oh, absolutely.

Oh, you are awesome. It's not that child's fault. My older sister had brief miscarriages while I carried him. If he wasn't meant to be here, he wouldn't be here. I don't love him any stronger or deeper than I do my other children.

He is a different guy. And I am the first one on the train when someone says, Oh, you don't understand. Women are rape. I was. You don't understand. Women are put in this, but I was. And I still raised my son. Not his fault. God always takes bad and makes good from it. You've got to give him that chance. It's just easy out for women to do. And men to do this what they want them to do, too. Absolutely.

I didn't give anybody a chance. You know, I really... But you have to help him move. I really love what you're saying. You know, you're just ministering to me. And I know that there are so many thousands listening that are just hearing you. And you're ministering to them.

You are. Well, that's what I want to do. And I just don't want to feel like I've gone to seminary class and stuff like that. Because I want to minister to people. I want to love on them. I want them to know that Jesus I know, you know, to serve the Jesus I serve.

Yeah, he's got his rules. You don't have to go to seminary to do that. If I was out there in Virginia, and you were out street witnessing, and I'd say, hey, I'll go with you, you know. And me, I would just, hey, go for it.

I'd back you up. Well, I didn't go to seminary class to be a minister. I go to seminary class, and I'm taking a chaplain class, because it helps me learn more.

I have a reading disability, so it helps me learn more. I know he doesn't call the equipped, he equips the call. And I feel like he's called me to go on the street, and he equips me to go to class. But I'd like to talk to my pastor, Rosalinda, and talk with her on this. She should not be a pastor. She is over the women when we have our women in the house. And she should not be called a pastor.

I've gone over this so many times, so many different ways. But she should not be called a pastor, because it would deceive people into thinking women could be pastors, and they'd go down to church later, oh, they were suing your pastor, and that's it. So I've done the research, okay. Now, biblically, I've debated this many, many, many, many, many times, and I've been doing this a long time.

And I did research, I'll tell you. Well, that's why I wrote down your Bible verses you gave me, and I'm going to sit down and talk to her. Well, I can also tell you that if you go to my website, karm.org, there's a whole section on women in ministry, and I go through all kinds of stuff. Women in ministry. Okay. karm.org karm.org Just go look up women in ministry, and you'll find all kinds of articles, probably 20, 30 articles, going through different objections and various things. See, I've been offering for 17 years on the radio to have someone debate me on these things. And nobody's ever taken me up on it.

And the debate title would be, Does the Bible Support Women Pastors and Elders? And the answer is, no, it doesn't. It just doesn't. You can. I said I'm going to go on this website.

You can go and talk to her. So let me ask you, are you close to Richmond? I appreciate you listening. Are you close to Richmond? Yes. Because we have someone in the chat who's listening to you, who lives close to Richmond, and she said she wanted to meet you.

So if you want, it's up to you. She's a sweetie. I know who she is.

She's really a sweetie. If you want, you both could email at info at karm.org and say yes or like to meet the other person, and then I'll exchange emails with you. Okay? If you want to do that.

info at karm.org C-A-R-M karm.org Okay? All right, we've got to go because there's a music. Okay.

Come back tomorrow, too. All right? Thank you. All right. Hey, Mark from Durham. Sorry about that, buddy. Call back tomorrow. You waited a long time. Kelly from Portland, please call back, too. We'll talk to you tomorrow. God bless. Bye. This is another program powered by the Truth Network.