Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network Podcast. For more information, visit www.carm.org. I've been studying more about Passover and the Last Supper.

Okay. We happen to have a, my wife's uncle is actually Jewish, so I get to quiz him sometimes, and he wasn't exactly sure about some of the answers here, but from what I understand, there's actually four cups in the Passover, and I didn't quite understand that, and one other quick thing was when Judas dipped with Jesus into a cup that it was actually a horseradish of bitter herbs, and I just didn't quite understand everything about Passover, and I wonder if you could shed a little more light there. Actually I don't know too much about it.

I do have a friend who knows a lot about it. He's a completed Jew, and he goes around does Passover, satyrs, and things like that, but you know there's four cups, and they are of sanctification, plagues, redemption, and praise, and there's different things that are done in them. You could go on online and go through and check them out to see, you know, the four cups of the Passover and see what they are, because there's a lot of places out there that talk about them in depth. I've never written an article, never done any research on them, but I have heard that they take the bread, and they put the bread in, I think, three folds or three sheets, layers, and one of them is broken, and it's so typical of the broken work of, you know, Christ being broken, and not his bones weren't broken, but the crucifixion and the shedding of blood.

It's typological of Christ. So what I would do is I'd go through and just see if you could find something. I'd need to write an article on it, because when people ask, it's good motivation to write an article, and I'd like to remember, I've been asked about the four cups, so it'd be worth looking into, but it's out there.

Well, I heard that the bread was broken, which is actually Mazda, flat bread, and one of them was buried in a white cloth that a child had to take it out to bury it or something, which is very interesting, and then the other, then it was brought back after three days, and then the other two pieces disappeared, and I find so much out there when I Google, I just wasn't quite sure of everything, but maybe if Charlie knows any link, it'd be nice. Well, you can put them in the chat. Narrow some of that down. But yeah, you can also, so just look up the four cups of the Passover, and they're in, just compare different articles, and you'll find that's the case. Like I said, I do have a friend who knows this a lot. Maybe I could call him and ask him to write an article for Carm, he could put it up, because he's the guy who knows. Oh, that'd be wonderful. Thank you, brother. Sure.

Wish I could help you more. Well, we'll talk to you again soon. Yeah, that's all right. All right, man. Well, God bless, brother. All right. You too, brother. Bye-bye.

Okay. Hey, if you want to give me a call, we have three open lines, 8772072276. Let's get to Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina. Rudolph, welcome.

You're on the air. Yes, sir. My question is about the churches and revelations. Are those churches, are those times or do they stand for people? There's just debate on this. Kinds of people, as one guy called up yesterday and said that, but I've heard that there's supposed to be seven dispensations.

I don't necessarily agree with that. There's the issue of seven types of church attendance, church people, churches, and there's just been all kinds of conjecture about what they are. Now, seven obviously is a biblical number, a very significant number, and all the churches, those seven churches, are in Turkey, the present-day nation of Turkey.

I've had the privilege of being able to visit all of those locations, and when I read Revelation, I'm reminded of them, but as far as what they are, I can't tell you, because the Bible doesn't tell us. It just says, here's the church of, and there's conditions, and I kind of suspect that as we read through them, they're intended to reach into our own hearts and bring to issue those failures and successes in our own lives. That's how I look at it, because when I read through it, that's what happens to me. Not that I make doctrine out of experience, and the dispensational is like this, because it's seven, they'll say seven dispensations. I don't see that as being necessitated by the text or supported out of the seven churches.

I think they read into the text too much. So that's what I hold to. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Yes, sir. Have a good evening. You too. Thanks. All right. If you want to give me a call, we have four open lines, 877-207-2276.

I want to hear from you. Don't forget to check out the site, CARM.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. It's been a website about working out for 26 years, and it's had almost 150 million visitors. We're getting close, but doing this a lot. There's a lot of great information on there.

Just give her the plug. And also, I just want to let you know that we can stay on the air by your support. And if you like what you hear, please consider supporting us. Just go to CARM, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate, and help us out. And you can send us a note that their donation is to help support the radio effort, because that's what it is. All right, let's get on the air with someone anonymous from Maine.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hey there, Matt. How you doing? Doing all right. Hanging in there. What do you got, man? Hey, so I got a question for you about some spiritual difficulties I've been having.

I've been going through a time of doubt and just feeling very spiritually dead, and it brings up the question of, you know, am I saved? I actually called you like six or seven months ago on doubt that I've been going through. But I'm calling on another aspect of it now, and that's, it kind of goes back quite a ways. And it began, this is kind of the reason I kept it anonymous, but it began probably like almost a year and a half ago. And I had gone too far with my then-girlfriend at the time.

She's actually now my wife. And we had a spree there a couple times. It was just going too far, you know, fornication and stuff, when we should not have. And God, before that, had given me the strength to be able to have self-control over those things, and, you know, refrain, and I was being convicted hard of the Holy Spirit not to do what I was about to do.

And it's almost just like I just ignored him and did what I wanted. And that night, driving home, it's almost like I felt like I could not feel like the Holy Spirit, like I tried to repent, and it's almost like it couldn't be genuine. And ever since then, I've just felt like I'm genuine when I repent, and just so there's so many just spiritual strange things, you know, I just feel so distant, and I'm just trying to figure out what happened. Did I that day, you know, lose my salvation?

I don't know. I'm just so... Well, I'm glad you feel bad, and I'm glad that you feel empty, and I'm glad you do. And, God, you may be surprised when I say that, because what it is, is the realization of the consequence of your deliberate sin. And it's right to feel that, because I believe, in your case, the Holy Spirit has distanced himself from you, not given up on you, so that you can know and experience what it means to turn your back on God and serve your own flesh. And the reason I know this is because I know it. I wasn't the most sanctified person before, let's just leave it at that.

So what do you do? It comes a time when you have to realize that you're not worth saving, and yet he saved you. You're not worth loving, and yet he loved you. And that your sin is strong and grievous, and there's a consequence to it. And yet at the same time, he's not given up on you.

He says he'll never leave you or forsake you. And sometimes what God does is, he says, this is what you want, this is what you can have, and you'll go along and suffer the consequences. The consequences is a harm to your fellowship with him. And so, I'm not saying it's normal, it's okay, it's normal in the sin, this is what happens.

So what you have to do is, you need to, if you haven't already, you need to go to your wife and talk to her about this. You need to confess to her your sin, not hers, yours, in leading her astray. And then you ask her forgiveness. And you just tell her you weren't a good man there, that way. And then you apologize, you're sorry. If you haven't done it, you need to.

If you have done it, that's good. And you need to then go to God, and I'm sure you probably already have, and you just lay it out before him. You need to talk to him about your feelings, and your feelings, the damage that's been done. It's just like as if you had gone out on your wife, and you're trying to make it right, the damage is done.

It takes a long time. But the thing is, God will never leave you. You have to understand something. You get on your knees, and you pray, and you say, Lord, I know you have forgiven me, and I trust in your forgiveness, and I seek your fellowship. And just like David, who, you understand, what David did, he, you know, with Bathsheba, did what he did, then had her husband killed. That's adultery and murder. And the Lord rebuked him, and it was costly. And yet God said that David was a man after his own heart.

And wait a minute, how could that be possible? Because David said, there's one thing I've asked of the Lord, but it might dwell in the house of the Lord forever. God's grace is greater than your sin, and his love for you is greater than your rebellion. And you have got to rely on that, and trust.

When Jesus was asked how much he loves you, he opened his arms and died for you. And you have to trust in that, not in your feelings. And you need to move beyond it, and commit yourself to living the right way. That's what you've got to do. Now, there's a break, so hold on, okay? We'll talk a little more about it afterwards.

I want to get your feedback, all right? Hey folks, we have three open lines, 877-207-2276. Please give me a call, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the line with Anonymous from Maine.

Are you still there? Yeah, hi. Okay, so let me ask you, did what I say help at all? It did very much, and I've just been wrestling with what is going on, and I was, I went, I suspected that and many things, and it's just been driving me insane. And it's kind of, you know, it helps to know that, you know, you're giving me good reminders, that's for darn sure. Well, let me add a couple of things. And what you said about apologizing to my wife, too. Oh, I was just going to say what you said about apologizing to my wife.

I have not done that yet, but I will do that tonight. Yeah, and you ask her, forgive us, you tell her, you were responsible for your action, you led her astray, and that you repent of it, you know, you confess it, and, you know, you just take care of that, because it's what Christ would want you to do to make things right. You go to the person you've offended, and then you've offended her, you've offended God, and you go to both. And then you've got to understand something. You've got to understand something. I'm remembering something here, but you've got to trust God beyond your ability to understand.

You have to trust God beyond your ability to feel it, to know it. Yeah. Now, I'm going to speak about something generically, but I'm going to just tell you that there was a time in my life before I was really walking with God that, some pretty bad stuff, if we were on a private phone conversation, I'd tell you. And some of the consequences of those sins were weighing on me like a thousand-pound weight.

Yeah. And it would not go away, and I could not get rid of it. And as I grew in my relationship with Christ, looking back on my past, I realized how heinous my choices had been, even as I had known Christ, and yet had chose to serve flesh. And my wife, girlfriend then, had a roommate, a woman, who sat me down and talked to me for about a half hour. And what she taught me was that I was not trusting in the blood of Christ, that I was holding on to sin that he'd already paid for, and that I was beating myself up for it too much, that I needed to trust in what he had provided. And I said, yes, but I'm not worthy of this. She said, of course you're not.

That's exactly the point. That he is the one who's worthy, and he's taking care of it for you. And you've got to trust in that, and you've got to accept that. Because to not do that is to deny the sufficiency of that atoning sacrifice.

I mean, what are you going to say? But she was right. And it took a while. But soon after, I was able to release that sin and rest in Christ and not worry about it.

Not that I dismissed it as, who cares? It was, the blood of God himself is taking care of it. I can't have that right. I don't have that right to hold on to it. Because to do so is to effectively deny the sufficiency of his cross.

It was a hard thing, because in my mind it made sense, but in my heart I said, no, I need to be punished. And foolishness. That's what it is. And it's our foolishness. It's our sin.

And it's our sense of righteousness. I should be punished. I should. I would feel better if something bad happened to me, and I knew it was because of this.

I'd feel so much better. Because then I would have earned my own deliverance. And that's a form of arrogance. Because we're saying that Christ's act of deliverance wasn't good enough.

I've got to do something. And that, of course, is wrong. So then we find out that now we're sinning in that way, too.

Like, man, I can't even get that right. So then that's why I have a saying in my prayers, Lord, my heart betrays me. He just betrays me.

No matter what I think, I'm wrong. Whatever motive I've got, it's not pure. I'm just a big mess. I just throw myself at you. Please save me. Just cleanse me. That's all I got.

And that's it. And sometimes he lets us have that sin so that that's what happens to us. That it breaks us, and we crawl to that cross, and we rest there because we got nothing else. None of our thoughts and our guilt and our work and our wishes. It's all vile.

We just appeal to him and trust in him. And it's okay for you to do that because he did it. All right? All right. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

You're welcome very much. When you're at the cross and you look to your side, you'll see me there with you confessing basically the same thing. We have so many sins.

You'll see a whole host of people around the cross confessing the same sins one way or another. But he's good. All right?

You got to trust him. Okay. Thank you. All right, brother.

God bless you. Call me back in a week or so. You let me know how it goes. All right? I will. Okay.

All right. Folks, pray for him. God knows who he is. And boy, I'll tell you.

So many of us know that story. Four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Claudia from Raleigh, North Carolina. Claudia, welcome. You're on the air. Yes, sir. Good evening.

My name is Claudia. I'm calling the guy number. First time he has 15. Okay.

First time he has 15. Yes. When God asked the prophet Samuel to tell Ammar, to tell Ammar, to tell Ammar, told that he's no more sin. He doesn't reject him as sin because he's not following the instruction of killing all the people and the animals.

Right. Because I think the Egyptians offended the Israelites and God gives that instruction. Is there any other instances that God has done that? I'm not sure I understood what your question was. Any other information on that particular event? Is that what you're saying? Is there any other instances that God has given that instruction to kill the people or animals?

Because it's from this Ukraine issue that so many people are dying and fighting and they begin to get observed. Is there any other instances that in the Bible that somebody has offended the Israeli and God gives instruction to wipe off the Amalekites? Yeah. First Samuel 22, 19. And there was the Amalek. And then Amalek answered the king and said it and he goes on. He can read through there in verse 19.

He struck the knob of the city of priests, the edge of the sword. And so that happens there. But you want to just know other instances of this kind of a thing. Yes, it does happen.

God did have the Israelites, David and others in Samuel, go in, or Saul, and go in and wipe out entire groups of people. Yep. Can you hold on? We got a break. Okay.

We got a break. So hold on please. Okay. Hey folks, why don't you give me a call?

We have four open lines 877-207-2276. We'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the air with Caudio, I believe it is from Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome. You're back on the air.

Yes, sir. I was in a group of people having discussion about what happened in Ukraine. That's when I decided to mention about it. I was told it worked because so many people have been suffering in Ukraine. So many people have been displaced, so many things. I was wondering whether God wants us to learn some lessons out of what is going on. Because as I told the group who were discussing, I said there is no one going to win. So many people who have left Ukraine and go somewhere, Poland or somewhere, are going to go through a lot of depression. And even after this fight and everything, I said I was wondering whether it's not a lesson for us to learn because like we brought nothing to this world, we're not going to take away anything.

Because God said vengeance is mine. So what's your question? What's your question? My question is, is there anything we've got to learn from what happened from here with what happened in the first time that we've seen anything from here about Ukraine? It's hard to understand. Are you saying what can we learn from what's happening in the Ukraine? Yeah, what can we learn. You know, what's happened because like first time that we've seen how so many people got to destroy all those people. Those people now in Ukraine, they're kind of like going through similar situations. Well, they're going through a great deal of difficulty. I don't understand everything that's going on over there. I do know that war is never clean and never easy.

And that innocent people always suffer. In fact, my wife, her relatives, her side of the family is from France. And there was one of her cousins, I forgot exactly, a very close relation to her mom. They had to stay in a certain house in France while the Allies were bombing to get rid of the Germans. And there was someone in the house who had been injured and they couldn't move them and a bomb blew them all up. And that means as friendly fire, as an example of something. So in my wife's side of the family, they lost people in the war.

They didn't do anything. That's the nature of sin in the world and war in the world. There are theological aspects we can learn from it. Such things that theologically, as God's in control, he's allowing it. This is the consequence of sin. This is the evil of war, et cetera. We could list out all kinds of things.

But a lot of those things are just not satisfying. And how can we be comforted even though those things occur? The comfort that we have to have is in Christ. Knowing that like the disciples who went through persecution and difficulty, that God was with them through it.

They learned very quickly how to be rejoicing in Christ during hardship. And it's not to say that we're going to go through it, but that people there can be very blessed by God in that situation and that he is there with them. We need to understand that. And yet at the same time, people do suffer. And we need to pray for those people who are suffering as well as the persecutors for their salvation and that God's work and will would be done through it all.

So we can only do it generically. And I can give theological truths, but a lot of times theological truths just aren't very comforting. And how do you comfort somebody in the time of war?

It's very, very difficult because bad things happen. And so we have to look beyond them and look to Christ and know that ultimately there are redemptions with him. And then we have the opportunity to pray for people, and we do. That's what we should do. That's what we should do. Okay.

That's about all I got for you, though. I want to thank you because so many people, since I've been in America over 30 years, I've never seen things like this happening. And thinking about Ukraine has been in the picture now for the past three or four years, so many things have happened. I'm wondering, you know, why God allowing this to happen and what lessons to learn? Well, he allows it to happen, and he doesn't tell us why, but he allows it to happen. And we can list out possible reasons for a greater good because it's the consequence of sin, because people are not listening to him.

We could come up with all kinds of things. One of the things I lean towards is that we are, all of us, representatives of God on earth, whether they're atheists or not, because we're made in the image of God. And so they have the calling of God, the responsibility of God to represent him.

This is how it is in Adam. Adam is a representative of all of us, and all people were in Adam. And so therefore we're made in his image, and we have this obligation.

But people reject that obligation. And so God is letting people have the consequence of their sin and their rebellion. And this is a theological, biblical truth. He's letting us have what we want as a whole, as mankind, and it's going to lead to death. Because Jesus says, if those days be not cut short, no flesh would be left.

Matthew 24, 22, I believe it is. So it's tough, but yeah. Okay, thanks for the work you do. I'm a prayer to your wife, and thank you very much. I appreciate, I listen to you most of the time. May God bless you, and may God bless your wife, and God will answer a prayer.

And I know that she's going to go to heaven, because she's in Jesus, and she loves Jesus. That's right. Have a blessed day, sir. You too, man. Well, God bless and thanks. Appreciate it. Yes, sir. All right.

All right. Let's say, we almost got a break, but we'll take the call or two. We have four open lines, 877-207-2276. So let's go on the phone with Pam from Richmond, Virginia. Hey, Pam, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi. Great to talk to you. You're my road dog. You ride with me every evening from work, so I appreciate it, and I love listening to you. Good. Well, thank you.

I wanted to talk a little bit about a subject that you just recently talked about, you know, with the gentleman before me. I lost my mom a month ago, and she's no longer suffering. She's no longer in pain, but I am. So I was just looking for some solace, some guidance.

Where can I look for some comfort? I prayed. I pray all the time. I'm a very spiritual person, and I know she's happy. She's where she wants to be and no longer suffering, no longer in pain, but I just hurt so bad. Yeah.

Was she a Christian? Yes. Okay.

You know, I just wish that I could sit there with you and, you know, hold your hand and, you know, shed tears with you because, you know, it's real, and it hurts, and, you know, you're suffering, and I wish you weren't, but I understand it, and I've lost my parents, and it's a hole that doesn't go away, and it's just a scar. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's a loss. Yes. It's a hole. You're exactly right.

I've lost. Yeah. And what do we do? Well, as Christians, we can write down a list of positives on a piece of paper, and we can put them on a refrigerator, and we can see them, and then as we read them, we can be comforted for those few seconds we walk away, and our heart is grieving and in pain again. This is the unfortunate reality of what it is we are.

One of the things, you know, my wife and I lost a son, and he died in our arms, birth defect, and so, you know, it's a great loss, a great suffering. Right. There were good things that came out of it, not that, hey, let's look at the bright side. It's not so cavalier as that, but the fact is that there were good things there, and one of the things that grew in my heart which would not have been there otherwise was, in a very minuscule way, a greater appreciation for the suffering of God the Father losing his son on the cross at death. And I'm not trying to draw a comparison as though it's equal because I can't understand the greatness of that because it was God.

Right. But for some reason, and people are different, people are just different, but for some strange reason it comforted me, and I have no idea why, but it just did. It comforted me to know in other areas too that we lose people, we suffer, and that God is with us in it, and that he grieves with us.

I pray that he does, and I thank you. Please hold on, okay, because we'll be right back under the brick, okay, Pam? Sorry about that. Hey folks, we have four open lines. Why don't you give me a call?

877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right everybody, welcome back to the show.

Let's get back to Pam. Are you still there? I am here, yes. Okay. You know, I wish I had so many comforting things to say, but, you know, I don't, except to say that I know. Christ knows, you know. I know, I appreciate it. I was just looking for something.

Is there something somewhere? I mean, I know God has done so much in my life and blessed me in so many ways and answered so many of my, my desires and my wishes, and, and I understand that. I totally understand.

But it just hurts. Yeah. One of the things you can do through it, believe it or not, is praise him and depend on him. These are choices you can make in your will, because it's easy to praise God when things are going great and when we're suffering.

Oh yeah. Praise God is, is, is a good thing and some, I think, a better thing. We can depend on him in that we trust in him beyond our ability to understand. We know that he loves us. We know he'll never forsake us, as Hebrews 13 5 says, and we know that he's grieving with you.

He knows, because Christ himself most probably lost Joseph, his father, and lost relatives and had to grieve in real life, in real time. And these are things we can learn from and through. And, you know, I remember reading once, this is, this is how I handle things, that you have a hundred units of, of grieving, a hundred units of suffering, whatever it might be. Some people take one unit a week and they stretch it out.

Other people try and work through a hundred units as quickly as possible. It just depends on your psyche or your person. Some people deal with it and deal with it and deal with it, face it. And some people, they have to just, they can't because it's just, we're just different. That's okay. Neither one's right or wrong, but we have to go through it.

We have to go through and it takes time. And each time each one of those, so to speak, suffering units is being spent, then offered to God, say, Lord, it hurts, but I'm depend on you. Please comfort me in it. And that's the greatest thing I can tell you. Just ask him to comfort you in it. He's not sparing you from it, but he's there with you in it.

And then this way your eyes will be moved towards him more and more. And there's peace and comfort in that. I agree. I have not done that as much probably as I should. Yeah, it's okay.

So yes, I will do that. Sometimes though, it just hurts so much. We just got to just hurt.

We just got to hurt. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. And that's okay. Well, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. I appreciate your kind words and bless you. Well, may the Lord bless you, you know? And yeah, I know what it means to suffer loss.

And he's there and we learned through it, but I wouldn't want to go through it again, but I'm glad I got through it. But that's just... Right. Yeah. All right, Pam.

I'm sorry you're going through it. Bye-bye. Okay. God bless. All right.

Okay. We're going to switch gears a little bit. Let's get to Bonnie from Greensboro, North Carolina. Welcome, Bonnie. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. I had called last night late in your program and we ran out of time and you asked me to call again. Sure. And we were talking about whether or not the church is saved from the wrath of God and going through the tribulation.

You remember that? Yes. Okay. And I had used verses in First Thessalonians that says that we are not appointed to wrath. And you said that has to do with salvation. Correct. Okay. But I would say wrath is wrath, whether it's wrath of going to hell or when his wrath is poured out on this earth. Because then we went to a verse in Revelation that says the great death of wrath has come.

And then someone else had called in and mentioned the church in Philadelphia. Well, let's look at this. Okay.

Okay. So you say the word wrath means tribulation, seven year tribulation period in First Thessalonians 5, 9? Well, I'm saying that it says that we are not, the church is not appointed to wrath. What does the word wrath mean? There is wrath coming in the tribulation. What does the word wrath mean in the context? Well, you're saying it means just for salvation. Well, it says this, God is not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation.

So wrath is now juxtaposed with salvation according to the text. So what would you say is, is it, what's, what's it, you know, not, not A, but B. Okay.

If you were, hypothetically, if you were, for example, go to Isaiah 45, seven or four, five. Oh my goodness. Oh, I didn't want to type it in wrong. That's why it didn't go right.

Got myself going there. God says this, I'm the one forming light and creating darkness. I noticed the opposite causing wellbeing and creating calamity.

These are just opposites. It's just, you know, we're destined. He's not destined us for wrath, but for salvation.

Okay. So what does wrath mean in the context? Well, the opposite of salvation, which would be that we would be lost. Yeah.

Damnation, right? Because the previous verse says, but since we are this day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet, the hope of salvation for God has not appointed us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Okay. So the verse contextually can't be used to support the idea of pre-tribulation rapture.

It just doesn't fit. Okay. Well, what about 1 Thessalonians 1, 9, where they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you and how you turn to God from idols to serve the lit, excuse me, the living God and to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Yeah. What's, what's that wrath to God? I guess that's the same thing.

Yeah. Because they're not idolaters anymore for they themselves report what kind of reception you had with you and how you turned to God from idols. They were not saved.

Now they're saved. The true and living God, the living God, true God and wait, uh, to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, that is Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come. It's, it's about salvation because it's not saying he's rescued. This isn't about the, for the Thessalonians.

It's about the tribulation 2000 years, the severe tribulation period, 2000 years in the future. Right. Right. Okay. But, uh, go ahead. Oh, sorry. That's salvation.

So go ahead. What's, what's another one? Well, I had mentioned that I thought Enoch was translated before the flood, which is a picture of the rapture. And then you can ask me about the arc.

What was that? Why is Enoch a picture of the rapture? Cause he was translated before the flood. I mean, if you look at the flood as like the tribulation, the church is translated before the tribulation, just like Enoch was translated before the flood. Okay. So that's, that means then that it's a rapture that's going to happen before the tribulation because Enoch was taken up in heaven before the... No, no, that's just, that's just a picture. And then, um, in Revelation... Okay.

So that's not very good. Go ahead. Okay. Well, in Revelation, you have a mention of the church.

A mention of the church, uh, it's, it's no longer mentioned after chapter two, chapter three, but in the first part of chapter four, John is told to come up hither and immediately he was in the spirit and he was in heaven. I mean, that's another, it looks like another picture of the rapture. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, okay. So, uh, the church isn't mentioned, right? So then... Not after chapter three.

Okay. So then have you ever studied what the 24 elders are in Revelation? Well, I assume that they're the apostles and the, um, patriarchs.

Nope. 24 elders. You read some commentaries and you'll see that it's dealing with the issue of the church. And when they say the church isn't mentioned, well, you mean the word church isn't mentioned? And that's a problem because justification is not mentioned in the later epistles. It doesn't mean it's no longer there.

The 24 elders, you've got to be very careful. You know, it's just, it's not mentioned here. And then there's another question is, is a revelation heptatic or is it linear? What that means is, is it seven views of the same thing? And there's strong evidence for that.

Or is it linear? One thing happens after another. Are you talking about the churches? The book of Revelation.

The whole book. Yeah. I don't understand that. What's what it means by the seven? Yeah.

Heptatic. It's, it's actually seven versions of the same thing compiled in the one book. That's what it means.

There's a lot of evidence for that. We're almost out of time. Have you read the idea? You know, two men in the field, one is taken, one is left, right? That's the rapture.

Is that what you hold to? Have you ever read the context? It's not the rapture. Well, no, in that case, that's after the rapture. That's Israel somehow, I thought.

The two men in the field, one is taken, one is left. Um, yeah. So, uh, that's, that's Israel taken? Because it's the wicked who are taken. They're taken to a place of destruction. Okay. Well, that's the opposite of my thinking.

Yeah. Well, that's all you got to do is go to Matthew 24, Luke 17 and read a hundred percent of the time when I've shown people this and I can do it right now. If you want it, they, they understand that it's the wicked who are taken because they even asked Jesus, well, where are they taken?

And he tells us where the body is. The vultures are gathered. That's the end of Luke seven, uh, 17 and you'll read good Matthew 24, roughly at 37 and Luke 17, 26 and go back and forth and read them. And you'll see that the ones who are giving in marriage, et cetera, were the wicked. And they're the ones who were destroyed. They're the ones who were taken.

It's very simple. Well, that's the account of the flood. It says it'll be like it was a days of Noah.

That's right. That they were doing it. It was the wicked who were taken. This is how it's going to be at the return of Christ. The wicked are going to be taken. That's what it says. So Jesus says, and here, let me, let me throw something even more irritating to your way.

Well, no, it doesn't say, um, present days before the flood, drinking, marrying, giving you marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark. Where are you saying that? Oh, and then it goes on to say two will be in the field. One taken. Okay. Yeah. And it's the ones who are being taken are the wicked from the context.

Okay. Now here's something to think about. You know, the parable of the wheat and the tares, right? The wheat and the tares? Yes.

You know, the wheat or the, okay. And um, that's in the church today. Right. And Jesus says allow both to go together until the harvest.

Okay. And at the time of the harvest, I'll say to the reapers, first gather up the tares and bind them in bundles. So the first ones gathered at the time of the harvest are the wicked, right?

Matthew 13 30. Okay. So if they're taken before the good are taken, then how does it fit in your, in the pre-trave rapture view?

If the wicked are the ones who were taken first. Okay. Hmm. That's something to think about. Yeah.

Oh, there's more. And we're on, we're at a time now. Because the music's going, the music's going, sorry. It's going to go in a few seconds. You want to call back tomorrow? Think about that.

And, and let's talk tomorrow if you want. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right, Bonnie. Okay. Well, God bless. All right. We'll talk to you later. Hey folks, there you go.

I'm out of time. May the Lord bless you. And hopefully that was interesting. I love discussing the issue.

It's, uh, it's needed. Anyway, may the Lord bless you. And by his grace, I'll be back on tomorrow. And I have a debate in about an hour from now.

Just go to forward slash calendar on Carmen. I'll put the information there. God bless. Bye. Another program powered by the truth network.