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October 19, 2021 4:00 pm
The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network wrestling. Why is the founder and president of the listed apologetics research was found alive are the more you have questions of our Bible doctrine why Grimes is called responding to your questions and now today is 12 October .21 for the podcast or to have a special guest on and a second on reducing and talk about Mormonism you have calls on Mormonism.
Please let them know we have one the world's experts on Mormonism on the bursa tonight I have a debate in a couple of hours from now with a very well-known Muslim apologist will be discussing this through the Trinity and will be putting some information on where you can watch that on the Karam Facebook page is on another kind of networking that are kind of a thing going to run some apologetic stuff that would make this guy Mike, shortly – or so that's what were doing and I'm going to introduce some interesting concepts and hopefully we'll see how it goes when when you have the debate tonight.
All right, so there you go. We are taking calls going to give me a call 877-207-2276 and if you cannot be a question about Mormonism. That's really focusing on tonight.
So what I want to do is get.
Let's see, there we go till they built their arrival in some distant disclosure in Utah.
I am very good so everybody this is Bill McKeever in front of Mina. How are we going to build what 25 years.
Here's what you know, California. You remember that when Shirley and I was at I think that this would first tell you that I was outside your car, your little yellow truck and we were you that's right except Charlie ever group using is Bill McKeever and that we talk to your nice and polite, you took off and then later you and I did a seminar together.that was Mr. seminary, naturally, and isn't it true also that you only lunch probably yeah, but it would story so yeah so how it works folks is Bill and I slid about 40 miles from each other, sending accounting and the reason you time in Idaho but to one day, I said hey Bill, you said I want to play. Lunch would drive down and pick Jan with a little lunch was okay to come up and were having lunch and I reach my wallet to pay and lo and behold I don't have my wallet with because that was not the purpose of just one of those things we've all done it and so we kind of chuckled about it. He paid an ongoing two lunches, so couple months later I called to get a bill on the highly some just click on scale is okay were laughing about it and think much lunch and then lo and behold for real, I forgot my wallet the second time and I could still see your face because I can see the light which I own you. Now that's right, I can see it on your face.
Here's the whole future of teasing and mocking about lunches that your good. So I have bought a much assents folks, but it really did happen. So it's kind of a joke that you don't know how many people would call you well but by the way that you will like this.
A lot of people know this story until a lot that's right it's over the years and had good fun with it so all right now Bill here.
He's the reason you really is an expert on Mormonism and when I have questions about Mormonism I can answer I just called Dilip or Eric Johnson are both very good and they just guess my question to your your for fantastic submittal. Looking going out, introduce yourself and MRM and all that goes back to around the time that I became a Christian I grew up in Southern California and I went to school with a lot of Latter Day Saints. I live not too terribly far away from one of the local chapels. Naturally a lot of Latter Day Saints tent to buy houses around the chapel and so they also went to the same school that I went to so I do a lot of these people are great friends. I mean there people and I don't.
Sometimes that's lost on a lot of Latter Day Saints because they assume that because you disagree with their theology and you have trouble with their history that the reason you look into because you probably have some personal and a paucity toward people anybody knew me growing up and I hope that even knowing me down though that certainly is my case I have a genuine concern for the LDS people, mainly because of those friendships that I have, but they never really try to convert me that the strange thing that I cannot recall any of my LDS friends either highschooler earlier that ever really wanted to sit down and try to share with me what they believed to be the restored gospel. But after I became a Christian that seemed all change all of a sudden a lot of my new acquaintances that I had through work and such. I became a target and that's fine so we would start talking and I would share what I believe number. I'm pretty new Christian at this time so there's a lot of things I don't know.
I don't know about, but I remember having some of these conversations, and asking some questions about what my friends course, the more they would answer somebody's questions. Naturally, the more concerned I came because a lot of those answers certainly were not grounded in what I was working out of the New Testament and so that really piqued my curiosity, I started reading about LDS theology.
Naturally, I reading books that were written about them by non-members and I know a lot of Latter Day Saints might say we'll see that's the problem you were tainted by that but let me just clarify that I didn't have a huge library of critical books on formative, but I did buy one by a man named Gordon Fraser who was a missionary to the Navajo people. He wrote a book in turn remember the title. I think it was very basic. Are Christians or something like that and I mainly bought that book because of all you and I was not familiar with a lot of the writings of LDS leaders. I I did not know what they were called. I didn't even know a lot of the players at that time still very early in my study and I wanted that book because he had a pretty large collection bibliography if you will, or a lot of endnotes from LDS sources and then I started buying those books and I started reading firsthand what the writers were saying with the speakers were saying.
And again, the more I read naturally more concerned came so that's really what started my whole journey into this topic, I'm still not bored with it.
Let me end up a lot of interesting directions you might say, very early in my study, I ended up coming across a couple that lived in the next town. You know, I lived in El Cajon in this couple lived in La Mesa, which is the very next city over, and I remember I was looking for a book that part but Thorson had dealing with the book of Mormon and I went to the Christian bookstore that was in La Mesa and I happen to know the owner of this books.
Her name was Katie and I wanted her to look at this book for me, will she pulled out this huge massive book back in 70 we don't have computers like that on a personal basis.
At this time and she couldn't find the book that you because you know the author of the book you so you're looking for you to live here in La Mesa.
His name is Art the course.
I looked him up book a lot of millennial that and I just happen to call him up out of the blue and asked him if he was the art, but Thorson wrote this book on the book of Mormon and it happened to be in that struck up a long friendship between PR and his wife Edna and my wife Tammy and myself kind of an interesting situation because they were.
I think at this time there probably 70 Tammy and Irene are 20 weeks to go to dinner together. We would talk about Mormonism talk about Christian theology, and it was really a great relationship because Martin Edna with their Mormon background helped me in a lot of areas trying to understand how a lot of Latter Day Saints think because I did not have that background and so art was very good very patient with me if I need a photocopy yeah not huge library ability as Bushby had all the stuff you'd probably want to read. If I needed a photocopy. He was more than willing to go to the photocopy made for me because even then a lot of people didn't have photocopy machines sitting on their desk either and I just I think God for bringing Thorson to be using them in order to help me out trying to understand sometimes very complicated. Sometimes confusing religion appears later. After studying this for several years felt to get involved in ministry. The bid Thorson to talk about me taking over Utah Christian tract Society.
I felt a little insecure doing that at the time. As the years went by, felt God calling me in this direction and at that time Martin Edna were not quite ready to retire.
That's fine, but I still want to do some art help me incorporate Mormonism research ministry began about 1979 without a little single sheet newsletter. I think we had maybe 40 people that receiving a gift. Understand, I married an Italian, so we have a lot of family numbers and so I was just merely sending it out to close friends and family members. And that's really how it began. I sometimes I wonder about that too.
So we had lots of discussions over the years, United going to melt metals is going to be did give me a tour with Wendy's and really enjoyed was you give me a private tour of Salt Lake City area only when talk to show me this and that and I would greatly do that again text to be fun if you just did a tour of people and I went with you and you have people meet just went on she probably will anyway. You gotta come out on the 23rd of them giving a tour of the Salt Lake area have done this before. There's a lot of very very public cemetery for the Baltic small group of old walk around and all of the background story. People are you on the 23rd I noticed a shapeless plot that they could just write me at firstname.lastname@example.org you're interested people to come down Friday night with a couple of days and that would be fun to all over Pocatello that one of Eric's going out to time it will come down there and go to Pocatello well I figured out to do something high-tech so customers do you know what busy you kinda would go down your office you're always books open books on your desk you're busy okay I had a quiet night.
My pretty much it is you need you need to have multiple monitors like I do and you know I can. You can try to fill me on that for a long time.
I would work.
I bet you the reason you don't want to do is break okay hold on that will form is what is right back after these messages, please why call 770776.
Back to the show. Take calls in about 10 or 15 minutes and the bottom of the hour.
So if you have a call from Bill McKeever? Mormonism he really is an expert is and quite knowledgeable doing for decades. All you do is just dial up and call us at 877-207-2276 okay Bill you still there right now. One of things that I was thought was interesting was the odious concept of God. I've talked about it before of maybe you can know elaborate a little bit.
I think there's one thing that people need to understand where say that the God of Mormonism, not the God of Christianity were not saying that to be me were saying that basically because that's what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints leaders have said, and that's what they say to give you an example why I'm looking right now my singular computer screen, which I know I should start looking at the room with the church and it's an article entitled increasing visibility brings question.
Let me read you this one paragraph.
To give your listeners a little bit of context on this in this article it says, in addition to the Bible more than few other scriptures, including the book of Mormon another test price which supports the Bible serves as an additional with history of Christ. Now we could debate that last part that's quite a bit but let's go on believe these additional scriptures have given that deeper understanding of what of why people are born into mortality where they came from and what awaits them in the next life in the catch.
This similarly they have a view of the nature of God and the eternal progression of his children that is found no other Christian faith will not sound like an admission that their understanding of the nature of God and ours is obviously different, and they are different than we need to discuss differences to see who is really an error when it comes to their view of the nature of so what do you only part of the website that there's other things on their official website thinking very similar to that end, like my point. What I said earlier many times when a Christian brings up the fact will the God of Mormonism different than my God as an evangelical Christian port your view of Jesus different than my view of Jesus. Some Mormons might feel a little bit upset even insulted at a comment or even a question like that fact remains, leaders have made comments towards those ends merely citing what their leaders have said on the subject. If the latter-day St. doesn't agree with what their leaders have said, with savory concerning the nature of God or the idea of men becoming gods or any other doctrine that you can pick out the hat obtaining formative that's really their problem. Not our problem. If they don't agree with what their leaders and that maybe they need to reconsider the belief that they do have and perhaps even their membership in the LDS church is true that they teach that God is an exalted man what they would say that that God was once a man, Joseph Smith taught that Joseph Smith, the founder we have imagined. And suppose that God was God. All I will bring you that idea. Take away the field so that you may see the famous couplet no more than Lorenzo couplet is banned is God once was God's way. Now based on that alone we see search certainly that they believe that their God was once a human being. Now the question then gets raised will well there. God, the one they call heavenly father or the one they call fellow while he was a human it would seem to make sense to ask a question like will who was in charge while Elohim was a human because obviously there must've been some deity of some sort that was running the show, you might say.
While Elohim was learning how to be the God used today and thanks don't have a problem with that question really because while he was a human being he was under the under the authority you might say another God. Previous to him was also once a man is the offspring of another God who is the offspring of another God. Going back into eternity past.
Certainly this is not a description that we find about God in the Bible, and yet latter-day Saints are led to believe that this type of the teaching that was made up by Joseph Smith is somehow a part of early Christianity that was lost during what they call the great apostasy there's no evidence that early Christians ever believed anything like this and so easy for the latter-day St. to kind of say what fee that proves there was a great apostasy. All the records of what they believed before work on and that's why it was so important to have Joseph Smith come on the scene and God calls Joseph Smith to restore the true God, the restored gospel, and also the restored church, which of course they believed to be there church. Well, that's not really convincing because we do have a lot of what the early Christians do believe that I might say you can find it in the New Testament. Okay, it's pretty clear there with the early Christians believe because that's where we go to find out what we should believe as Christians we don't see anything like that in the New Testament we don't think anything like that in the history of the early Christian church. Alright, so things is Jesus. The preexistence is the literal little offspring in God's Scottish life, that's can get all of us are far beyond just Jesus all human being are understood to be the literal offspring of heavenly father and a heavenly mother shooting in heaven. Proper name for just call her heavenly father know she has, this is kind of a word that thrown around. But it's not something that I usually hear Latter Day Saints as a label they do believe that man can become God coming right out and saying that all women that get to the celestial kingdom of God is. It's not that I haven't heard Latter Day Saints use that if I don't hear a lot of their leaders using that kind of but they do believe that they will be exalted as husband and wife both of them qualified to get into the celestial kingdom is the highest level of Mormon heaven about the new teach in the church that God the father God over this world is married to heavenly mother and through the procreative act. They are having spirit children which is kind of odd because they believe God is a body of flesh and bones, but yet he's not creating children after his own kind. It seems that iconic way that Jesus was the first born break. So if you want to call questions 77 mass Y call 77077 I built my cultural fast applicable people learn alright, alright, let's get to Anthony from Kansas Anthony are you there you here near my body girl go McKeever reasonable you all that claim that restoring the gospel, very much like to think I'm strong no need. But anyway, stored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to the truth.
Orthodoxy, war, or what you mean when you say restored or reformed latter-day St. they would feel that the Reformation that took place in our history will credit you on what getting Reformation could repair so when you when you have a question. Are you saying. Maybe I should have you explain that a little bit deeper. Then I will understand exactly where you going thrown out when I was a member of the church. I didn't talk well I didn't go reorganized okay okay that that helps you organize Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints PRL BF Burnell known as the community of right and you're wondering if that organization would be closer to a more orthodox consent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that the court here in Salt Lake.
Current that that that's a great question. I would say that when it comes to a lot of the really strange teach that the LDS have the price does not share a lot of those things. So in that regard might say if closer but in my opinion, is it close enough I can't answer basically because it depends on the individual member of the church that I would probably say it depends on the latter-day Saints. In Salt Lake City you might say. And let me explain what I mean by that. Sometimes people ask me will be you think that a Latter Day Saints computer latter-day say and still be a fee believer a forgiven believer. I can only answer that by asking, well it depends on the individual that you're referring to. What I mean by this is only forgiven people can be true Christians only forgiven people are going to spend eternity in heaven. Latter-day St. give forgiven and they know their forgiven, it's probably because they've rejected some of what their church teaches its members because what it teaches its members does not help come to the conclusion that they know for sure that they are forgiven. I would say the reorganized or the community of Christ. As I said earlier doesn't have a lot of the more bizarre teaching of the LDS church here in Salt Lake but I would not put it in the camp of being orthodox and when I say orthodox. I'm certainly not meaning like Easter large blocks or anything like that that help you break good good good thing else are not our know that we all appreciate it every day right to grant our Greg from North Carolina. Greg welcome you on the air like you, I just recently took a trip up about like the date of first comment to the airport. I have a new concourse and terminal all new area and we were first I want to visit Hannah's life. We were at a burger placement airport.
We rented to an employee at the airport to and they said that the Mormons were what got the Mormon basically funded the new airport about that in Salt Lake City.
I haven't heard anything like that. It's not that they don't have the money I bettered anything that would confirm relationship like this. One of the real quick question had is why about his wife on her mother was from Utah and her father in Colorado. Her father was Catholic and her mother was a Mormon South speaking to them about Jesus and she shouldn't want to hear she had bad taste in her mouth because evidently I guess the Mormons asked. I guess they maybe excommunicated her mother because she married someone who was from the Catholic Church against they can look down your nose at the difficult church.
I get you there. Okay great let me just clarify that normally if a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints vary somewhat outside of the faith that's normally not excommunication. If someone is excommunicated from the church.
That means they lose all blessings and privileges that the church offers the individual. Usually that comes from a serious affect apostasy. For instance, that would say that the woman in question started moving towards becoming a Catholic and denouncing teachings that she learned as a Latter Day Saints that could lead toward that but normally it's not something they do help more privately. If you vocalize your disagreements with the church and you been told to stop it now.
That could lead to excommunication or disfellowshipped, not quite as severe as the indication so if she was excommunicated.
I don't think it would've been for Mary and someone who was player of the Roman Catholic faith. Although, as long as that relationship is like there's no way that she would benefit from priesthood blessings. If you will, that the church believes that offers its members because her husband not being a member of the church wouldn't have this priesthood that they call: one quick last thing that airport is not very walker from a man I would think that I want you, Greg abilities with maybe have a lawsuit concerning any cards or walk and everything that I would feel like wow that's a long walk by to make it to the far terminal concourse without going to and I was like wow that's typical while the walk. It felt like I could imagine someone older who have a disability and you been originally and I usually leave about a half-hour earlier than I normally would give if I'm flying out on Southwest that's at the far end of the other terminal is quite at Robert want out of that's Rolf Mann and yeah, pretty good dancers like Rick, let's get to Dave from North Carolina. Dave welcome you earlier with Bill McKeever some research Ministry hello all about the very end of the reorganized Church just wanted to quickly share that I have the opportunity to visit that landmark on a cross-country tour with a friend once was an ex-Mormon both attended Denver seminary, MD grew up Mormon but was they I will and then went on to ministry in Utah and has a good ministry there all standing together guided witness to the Mormons through the leadership primarily through dialogue and friendship and he's a good resource. I think a lot of people at that understand what the I was saying that virtually brought into more of almost like Catholic friend that I do believe possible about it? That question for Bill well I would just go because he was sending together organizational this split between the actual literature just so I think what different didn't pick up the although the phonic type things that Brigham Young think introduced with the temple right that all and flowing that that I guess the question would be that his understanding is possibly blasé going there right folks calling 772077 as research Ministry. Mormonism is a call I call 770776 bill with ask you to introduce more Microsoft Word people to get a hold of you and maybe if you're interested in that. August 23 thing and will talk about salvation with the next caller set up a call related to that.
So, introduce yourself and don't own recent caller well I research Ministry MRM.org and people want to go to website. There's a lot of material there. They can download it. We have a lot of videos and things like that. Regarding that cemetery tour if they just write me email@example.com and put cemetery tour the subject like if they're interested. They're going to be in Salt Lake Saturday morning.
I'll give him all the details were going to be along. So for that. Glad to have people join us on that we don't like to have a lot of people because we cut a caravan around the Bill Graham place but it should be a lot of fun and I addressed they thought that because he was talking about the split between the memorial just as they were known originally and the LDS church after Joseph Smith was killed in 1844 Carthage jail Brigham Young started making plans to move the church West. However, Joseph Smith, widow.
He did not get along with Emma Smith and so it took some pretty bad things about Emma, but Emma stayed behind and when Joseph Smith's oldest son became old enough to run the church. That's when you could say the our LDS church got its beginning.
So one of the things that they did that Emma did not like about Brigham Young was the idea of plural marriage. In fact, pretty much, which were great denying that her husband ever practice plural.
I don't know why she did that that because she knew better, but that was a big difference between the two groups. So when Brigham Young laughed, Emma stayed behind to start the church reorganized back there and that's really were those two groups parted ways stuff to get a hold of you people do is just in select MRM.org what contact contact at firstname.lastname@example.org delegate sounds good. Alright let's try this Chuck North Carolina welcome you.
Yes sir, thank you for taking my call. Sure and on North Carolina and I wondering the Christian belief in salvation by faith alone in Christ. Does the Mormon church adhere to that is no way they would say that you have to have a belief in Jesus is. But it's not by faith. You are not justified by faith in the context of formative Mormonism basically according to the doctrine and covenants section 1, verse 32 you need to repent. Keep the commandments then you're forgiven and when you look at the word repentance. You have to understand that they do have a very peculiar definition of repentance and Mormonism is not just confessing the sin if abandoning or forsaking that sin never to repeat it again.
Now this becomes problematic. Of course, when you ask a latter-day St. will how many of my sins, must I repent how many must I confess and forsake Bill tell you all well.
How many latter-day Saints. You know have actually accomplished that I I know will not that I talked to hundreds of them.
Over the past several decades and if you talk to a lot of latter-day St. Bill admit they haven't done so if they haven't received the forgiveness because they haven't followed the proper steps of truly repenting and keeping all the commandments that how can they have any assurance that there forgiven And this is the terrible thing that this religion does to its people. They brought them of any hope of being assured of where they're going to be in the next life. But the only way they can hope to be in the celestial kingdom top level of the celestial kingdom is where they get all the benefits of exultation or godhood is to keep celestial law which means that you have successfully repented of lawyers you have kept all of the command.
I've never met one done. Okay, that will answer. Thanks a lot. Praise the Lord for your ministry. Thank you, thank you, Tim and Celeste sit and talk to Bill or myself by Mormonism. All you do with style 877-207-2276 bill you talk about the salvation came to mind. D&C 82 seven maybe you talk with Scott morning after listening I think is important information from seven is such a horrible person and and when you hear what it's like I'm turning to her right to read it right out of the doctrine of it.
It was actually a verse that I have personal friend that was the first that bothered him so much and eventually led him out of the church, but here's here's what it says my fingers going here to write with any red, with one hand. Section 82 verse seven start with verse six. Get a little bit of context here any anger of God can deliver against the inhabitants of the earth, and none with good for all have gone out of the way like always say the growth in verse seven says, and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any into your charge go your way, and sin no more. But unto that soul who said shall the former sin return, saith the Lord your God about your listeners, but I certainly don't get a lot of comfort out because we all have a propensity to sin. We we all are fallen people. We both think we've all come short of the glory of God.
We can struggle with that sin nature for the rest of our lives. You see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism that you can rest assured that you are forgiven of your sins and that you are in fact saved because it's not based on our ability to stop sinning.
It's based on trusting the finished work of Christ.
I all think it was some latter-day think I'm talking to it so I guess you could say that I am saved by works there, just not my own, embarrassed.
The big difference because I Mormonism your own Christianity is all about the finished work of Christ. What he did on the cross of Calvary and how his righteousness is imputed to the believer when we come to recognize ourselves as sinful, fallen humans, and we see Jesus as the right to son of God God in the flesh huge difference between our theologies here so when a Christian is talking with the with their latter-day St. neighbor and they make the comment that I hear this a lot will were Christians just like you. There's that's really not true because the differences are severe Hawaii latter-day Saints say things like that.
Maybe they're just thinking that we agree on a lot of social issues which we do in many areas, but certainly when it comes to theology.
We are not in agreement we don't even come close. Even though we may share some word they define those words differently than the way that we would find is one of things and I tell people this definitions with Mormons. Mormons teach because if you say to them because you believe in the same one only mean that of all the gods that exist only serve and worship Orpheus in the Trinity and excitedly. The Trinity also able naming three separate gods and we don't write on a minute difference in the nature of what they teach versus what we teach so that's why you know we we lovingly Bill and I loving letter saying that there isn't salvation. You cannot have your sins forgiven and Mormonism I want to say that the mean and have Mormons be offended. Tell the truth just can't be saved and Mormonism because God is not been exalted, and Jesus is not the brother of of the devil.
And there's no preexistence and justification is by faith alone and that was for five sets of the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies in godliness, faith is credit his righteousness is like the elderly cousin and I do what I do mean I should Mormonism to build those but studying it for a couple hundred years now.
If you knew Joseph Smith. Yeah that's right so we got about 23 minutes left in the show that he mentioned you talk a little bit so you can give a tour on October 23, of the graves, graveyards, and some you do that with me once was very interesting. Actually, in Salt Lake City's people to get a hold of you to contact Hatch and R.
M.O/good mingle show up and down. Basically what we do is all okay.
I've got a little bit of the route to the cemetery.
You waiver granted all the old big-name time that we have, but I have a route that we take see a lot of very interesting don't give a little bit of a background of the digital are and people found it to be quite fascinated to see a lot of the former president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were to see some of the graves of Joseph Smith plural why not all of them were there many of them are there plural wives.
The graves of pluralized job.Brigham Young given buried in the Salt Lake Cemetery Pioneer Cemetery first Avenue, just the temple square. But there are a lot of big names that are buried in the cemetery really began back in 1848 when the band had to bury his child died right and that he became the first sextant, George Wallace and but a lot of interesting things about this. And I try to make it as interesting as possible, but I think more history is interesting to really fellowship. It should be a fun time.
This kind of caravan around pointing out the site. Talk about. Just back get back your little truck little Toyota. Yeah that would be 545 in the back shotgun's so folks were talking with Bill McKeever, the founder and director and thought Mormonism research ministry MRM.org to contact him. It's contacted MRM.org. So we got about a minute left unless she wants anything. I think there's probably a lot of confusion with we evangelicals talk to her for the day, but I think you made it a good point that when we are talking with them. We need to be prepared for the fact that there probably going to use words that are very familiar to we do share some of those words. However, the definitions are very very different, and sometimes with necessary when you're talking with latter-day St. Luke say they're talking about God or their talking about Jesus and sometimes it is necessary disable what you think God could you explain to me how you understand that concept what is being latter-day always ask questions life elderly friction is to go about… Plus will talk later.
But later everybody God bless the Lord bless you, by the way they tonight to Carmen Facebook.
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