Matt Slick Live

A previously recorded Matt Slick show. Okay, let's see.

It is the Ides of February, that means the 15th of February. And if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 8772072276. If you want to watch this show, you can go to the karm.org homepage and you can watch me. It's not a big deal, I'm just sitting here at a desk. You can see what it'll look like if my face matches my voice, which most people say doesn't.

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8772072276. And we've got an Israel trip we're trying to get going. If you are interested in checking out the Israel trip, if you think you might want to go, then what we're asking you to do is go to the karmisrael.com page.

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8772072276. Last night, I watched the movie Fatima. Wow.

What to say? It was breathtakingly sad. So Fatima is the 1917 Portugal, the three children, Lucinda, Husinta, and I forgot a little one, said that they had a vision of the Virgin Mary. And how the movie was, I don't know how accurate the movie was.

I don't know. But at the end of the movie was what's called the Miracle of the Sun. I did a little bit of research on it. And apparently 70,000 people were gathered there. And a lot of people saw the sun do some weird things in the sky.

Move. Some thought it was going to come crashing to the earth. Some saw it move back and forth. And some didn't see anything.

Who knows what really happened. But what I thought was interesting, as I always think is interesting dealing with the issue of Catholicism and Mary, is the idolatry that was there. Now, you know, when I say stuff like this, and I think of, you know, how harsh I am against the Roman Catholic Church, because I believe it's apostate. I believe it's false.

I really do. And I believe that all Catholics who believe in official Roman Catholic theology regarding salvation are damned. They're not true Christians. And when I say stuff like this, I don't say it because I'm an ex-Catholic and I got hurt or nothing happened.

No. It's just Scripture. What does Scripture say and what does the Roman Catholic Church say? And I'm reminded, and I am not Martin Luther, I'll tell you.

There's no way. But I'm reminded of something in one of the movies where Luther was being brought up on charges by the Roman Catholic Church for heresy. And they gave him, I think, a day to recant or whatever it was to reconsider everything. Because, you know, the Roman Catholic Church is a true church. And it's what has all the truth.

And it's the true church of Jesus and all this stuff, you know. And so he was allowed to kind of reconsider. And he came back and said that he, I don't know the exact wording, but he said, as he looked to the Scriptures, he judged the truth by the Scriptures and he could do no other.

And on that, he was ready to die. Now that's really interesting. It's the Scriptures. It's the Scriptures. All the Catholics might say, well, it's your interpretation of Scripture. No, you know, just read the Scriptures, folks. I've got a book on 50 priests who left the Roman Catholic Church.

Fifty? Who left the Catholic Church. Why? Because they've read the Bible. So the idolatry that was there in that movie last night, it saddens me. And the reason it does is because when I read the Scriptures, it forbids to do exactly what they were doing.

Kneeling before statues and praying to Mary. She's a virtual goddess. And I've got a theory. I have a theory about something.

And I don't know. I'm not going to talk about it with some experts and things like that. But my theory is that demonic doors can be opened via superstition and paganism. And so the superstition that was associated in the Fatima area, there's obviously shrines to Mary everywhere. And you said certain things in rituals and stuff like that. There's an occult connection there that opened the door up to demonic activity. And then you had a spirit that imitated the virgin Mary and then taught ungodly stuff. And the Catholic Church can't even tell the difference. So how do I tell the difference? By reading the Scriptures. And you can, too. You can read the Bible and you can study the Bible and you can say, hey, that's not what the Bible says. Praying to Mary never says that.

Never, ever, ever does. So just stuff like that. The movie was disturbing. It was well done, well acted, and all that kind of stuff.

But I just have to say that I found it to be disturbing. Because it was just paganism. It was paganism. And they couldn't tell the difference. They were just believing whatever the Roman Catholic Church told them to believe.

That was it. Anyway, it just bothered me the whole bit. That's the question I've got for that guy. My question was about Calvinism. I know you defend it. I know you're going to defend it to the day you passed away. So do you think it's a quick question?

I have another one. Are you sure that Calvinism is more biblical than Arminianism? In my opinion, I believe so. I can only be sure as I understand Scripture. I like to tell people I'm convinced I'm right.

But I'm also convinced I could be wrong. I just need to be shown from Scripture, that's all. So when Jesus said, what Scripture is it?

One second. I think it's Matthew 11.27. Sorry, I was looking it up. Only the Father knows the Son, the Son knows the Father. And so does Jesus reveal the Father to us? Or the Father in what sense?

Well, that's what it says. It says no one can come to the Father and no one knows Him except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11.27.

And also Luke 10.22. But yeah, that's what it means. It reveals the Father.

So, that's it. What does it mean to reveal Him? What sense does He reveal the Father? Well, probably because Hebrews 1.3, He's the exact representation of the nature of the Father. We can say that He is the expressed image of God, and so He reveals the Father in that sense of showing what God the Father is like by looking at Christ.

And also revealing the will of the Father, probably as well. But that's a good question. Okay.

Okay. So what do you think we're going to do? That's my second question. What do you think we're going to do in Heaven forever, you know? I don't know. I don't know. But I know one thing.

All I want to do is be in His presence, just be in the presence of my Lord and Savior, because remembering what happened to me when I was 17 at my conversion, if that presence is what is in Heaven, let me tell you, you will never want to leave. It won't even enter your mind. You'll just be basking in that beauty and that incredible greatness.

Oh, it's wonderful. So, you know, I don't know. Sometimes when I'm looking at documentaries on the galaxy and things like that, I think, I wonder if I could go visit a galaxy sometime, you know? I wonder if I could do that. But I don't know if I'd ever want to do that. You never know what's going to happen in Heaven. Who knows? Just don't know.

Okay? Wow. So what do you think about people who have, you know, died supposedly, came back? There's so many people on YouTube who have stories.

Do you think they're legit or what? Some are. The reason I think some are is because, well, the Bible says in 2 Corinthians 12, 3, 2 and 3, 2 through 4 actually, that it's possible to be out of your body and go places. And it says that because Jesus, I mean, Paul said, I know a man 14 years ago, whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, but such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And so that's what it talks about.

So it's possible. What convinces me that these things are legit, at least some of them are, is when you read about the people born blind and they have an accident, an operation, whatever it is, and then they are able to wake up. They said, yeah, I went and I saw so and so and so and so in these things. And they were able to recognize them by their voices, describe things, you know, how many people were there in these other rooms and where they were. And so I could think of no possible way for them to know that kind of stuff unless something had happened to them in an NDE. But that's the one that gets me.

Those are the ones I can't find any rational explanation for on a science level. It has to be, just like the Bible says, we can do that. We can leave our souls, moves, and goes on.

Well, OK, I know this is we probably don't know the answer to this, but do you think we're going to be able to do things in heaven like we do here, like like make a sandwich or take a shower or play like play basketball or something? I have no idea, but probably not. I just don't know. OK, it doesn't make I don't know.

And heaven is who knows. So you got me on that one. OK, I don't know, buddy. Well, I mean, why don't you think I mean, all right. All right. I don't want to take too much of your calls. Yeah. Call back.

Get in line if you want. You got more questions, OK? All right. Thanks. All right. God bless. Good questions.

A lot of them. All right. Let's get to Kevin from Tennessee. Kevin, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, thanks, Matt.

My question is, I'm trying to prepare for speaking to a one is Pentecostal modalist. And I was curious what your thoughts are. Oh, there's the commercial. OK, good. Hold on, buddy. And hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

We have two open lines. 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. So I am chuckling because in the chat room during the break, someone says, I'd love to call or ask if we make sandwiches in heaven. And they just wrote it. Maybe maybe the women will be making sandwiches in heaven. So, you know, me, I'd like to dig myself a hole to get in trouble.

So I'm cracking up over the idiot rate. So there you go. Let's get back to Kevin from Tennessee. Kevin, welcome.

You're on the air. My question is, is like, what's the most defining way to. What should I watch out for when it comes to modalists or what would you recommend I tell tell that guy in order to try to help them see the truth? Ask him if he believes the Trinity. He'll say, of course not. And you ask him define the Trinity.

Tell me what it is. Don't help them. Don't help them.

And if there's some other Christians with you, I always have to tell other Christians, don't help him because Christians go, this is what it is. Nope. Because they wreck it. They ruin things.

Nope. Let him see if he understands what it is. Because a lot of times what they'll do is they'll condemn the Trinity and they don't understand what it is. And so it is three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So what I'll do is I'll tell them, define what the Trinity is. Oh, it's the Father's unholy spirit. Well, that's not what it is. It's three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons, not just Father's unholy spirit. The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Catholics believe that stuff, but it's so nondescript it doesn't do anything. A lot of times you'll find out they don't know what the Trinity is. And sometimes they do. And then what I'll do is ask them a very difficult question.

And this is what really gets them. And then I'll show you a Bible verse that's worth looking at. So I'll ask them, okay, do you know how the Trinity is arrived at in the Bible? And I'll get these answers, oh, by taking things out of context, by this and by that, you know, all these stupid answers. And I'll say, well, no, that's not how it's done. Do you know how it's done?

Because this is critical. The Trinity doctrine is arrived at systematically by looking at the whole of the Bible. And I tell them, if the Trinity's wrong, it's because that system is wrong.

So do you know what that system is? Can you tell me how the Trinity's arrived at in the Scriptures? Because you don't find it in a single verse. You find it in the whole of Scripture.

So that's what we say about the Trinity. How's it arrived at? Because in order for you to say it's wrong, you have to say that the approach itself is wrong. So what is that approach? How do we do that? And they have never been able to answer the question.

All right? So the answer is found. Just go to carm.org and forward slash trinity, I think it is. Or what hyphen is hyphen the hyphen Trinity, okay? And if you go there and you look, you'll find a table. And a table, the Trinity chart there, let's see, does it have it on that one?

No, it doesn't. It's going to find the Trinity chart. So just go there and type in, let's see, let me try it right now, Trinity chart. And you'll see the table where it says the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all, there it is, Trinity chart.

And if you go down to the bottom, you'll see how it's done. The Father's called God, the Son's called God, the Holy Spirit's called God, the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit are all called Creator, all resurrect, each one indwells. This is how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at.

And so you can put them on the spot and say, this is it. Is it wrong to say these things? Is it wrong to say the Father's called God, the Son's called God, the Holy Spirit's called God?

Of course not. Is it wrong to say the Father, Son, Holy Spirit each create? And then you say each one has a will. Luke 22 42 of the Father and the Son and 1 Corinthians 12 11 of the Holy Spirit. And each one speaks, you know, and I get the verses in there. And you say, so we concluded the Trinity's there.

Now they may or may not argue with this, with you a little bit about this. So, but you need to know that, okay? That's one important thing. All right. Are you with me so far? Yes, sir. All right. You also need to memorize this address, John 6 38. John 6 38.

All right. And also you can go to John 17 5, and I'll explain why. But John 6 38, Jesus is speaking, For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Now wait a minute. In modalism, the Father and the Son are the same person. Then why would Jesus say, I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me? So he was in heaven. Who sent him from heaven? Not my will, but the will of him who sent me. So it's this, they're different. Different wills, different persons. So who sent the Son? That's the question right there.

Very quick, very slick. Okay. Are you with me? Are you with me? Amen. Was that it, or was there something else? John 17 5.

You can parallel these. Father, glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was. Wait a minute. Jesus is saying he had glory with the Father before the world was made. You say, how does that work? You say, Jesus came out of heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent me. And Jesus says he had glory with the Father before the world was made.

Explain how that works. What they're going to have to do is separate the divine nature from the human nature. And they're going to move into the error called Nestorianism at this point. And so, there's issues. But here, let me give you one more thing to think about, okay?

You ready? Yes sir, I'm listening. Okay.

Ask him a question. Say, if you were to put a person, a bad guy, in a jail with no light, and the temperature was either hot nor cold, or he's got a single bed, and he's fed three times a day, and he's in darkness, and there's nothing around him. It's just, that's it. And he's not allowed to ever come out, and no one talks to him, and that's how it is for his entire life, for say, 50 remaining years. Would that be torture for that person? And the answer, of course, would be, well, yeah, that'd be torture. Horrible.

People go crazy. And ask him, so in your theology, where God is a single person, he existed for forever before the foundation of the world. Isn't that what was going on with him, as a single person, by himself, forever? You call it torture with a person, we're made in God's image. So, how does that work with God?

Forever, with nothing. Explain that, okay? Try and talk about that one. Yeah, that's powerful. And one last question, because I'm expecting him to bring up, and I did look some of this stuff up.

I don't think I found it on Quorum, but I found it on GotQuestions. In the book of Isaiah, where they say they will call Jesus the Everlasting Father, what's a good comeback for that one? Well, just read the verse. Just read the verse, okay?

So you go to Isaiah 9-6, right? A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on his shoulders. Ask him, what does it mean when it says the government will rest on his shoulders? And his name, and notice what it says. Oh, we've got a break, so hold on, and I'll address this, okay?

We've got an article on it. So please hold on. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

We have one open line, 877-207-2276. Thanks, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, folks, welcome back to the show, Kevin.

Are you still there? Yes, sir. All right, just so you know, there is an article on Isaiah 9-6, and it's on Carm. If you go to the Oneness Pentecostal section, you will see it. It's listed there. I mean, I've written so many articles, I forget which I've done.

And it's Isaiah 9-6 is Jesus the Everlasting Father. Okay, so it's there, all right? Now, let me help you out, all right? Are you there? Yes, sir, I'm listening.

I'm getting it because I've got kids in the background. I apologize. Okay, no problem. So, this is what it says. His name, and notice the word name is singular. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Ask them, how many names are listed there? And if they say four, you say wrong because it says name in the singular. It does not say names. Because what it's saying there is in the singular, name, the name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. I say to them, explain why it says one name and four things.

And why do you only focus on one thing? If it's his name, his name is called Prince of Peace, his name is called Mighty God, his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Eternal Father. Why is it that the Jews, you know, Isaiah wrote this, which is a prophecy, of course, that the single name of Jesus is all of these things, and why do you only focus on one part of it? You have to understand something, that in Hebrew, like American Indian names, like where's Running Bear, you know, he's over there at the stream down there with, you know, a crying wolf, that names meant things, like Methuselah means when he dies it will come. Abraham means father of a multitude. So his name, when he's talking about his name, he's talking about the characteristics of his qualities. He'll be called Eternal Father. He'll be called the Mighty God. He'll be called the Wonderful Counselor, right?

Well, ask them this. Where does it say in the Bible, in the New Testament, that he was called these things? You say, what's going on?

If it's a prophecy, why is it that the names aren't, he's not said of that? You with me? Yeah. Okay.

Just ask them questions. So if this is his name as that, do any of these names show up in the New Testament? In reference to Jesus, the answer is no. Well, then what's going on?

Well, the answer is simple. It's describing characteristics of his quality. And you go to Hebrews 1-3, Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of God. And that's what's going on there. And he's called God. We could show where he's a counselor, he's an advocate.

Definitely that's the case. He's also God. He represents the Father.

And he came to bring peace in some areas. Okay. All right. All right.

Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate it. All right, man.

God bless, buddy. Thank you. Bye-bye. Okay.

All right. Let's get to Kelly from Los Angeles. We lost Kelly. And let's get to Aaron from Des Moines, Iowa. Aaron, welcome.

You are on the air. Hey, Matt. Hey, I've got a question. My wife and I have attended a rather small church for a little over 22 years. In our course of time there, we have just recently seen our fourth pastor leave.

They generally have stayed between three and seven years at a time. Small work, you know. And I guess I'm just kind of wondering, when do you decide to just keep going and doing the same thing you've been doing or potentially leave and join a church that's, you know, stronger, more solid, I guess, as far as just being able to maintain stability? Well, why are the pastors leaving? You know, I can see one or two, but four? Yeah. The first couple both, they left to take larger ministries. Wait a second. Yeah, the first couple. Since I've been there.

Was there a woman pastor there? No, no, no. We've never... No, no. Okay. Church definitely wouldn't go for that. Good.

That's good. But yeah, the first two, they left to take larger ministries. The third pastor actually stepped out of ministry after three years.

Okay. And then the fourth, after being there seven years, just decided to step out of ministry and take a secular job. And I know ministry is hard.

Yes, it is. My dad has been a pastor for 36 years. I've watched it. And obviously in the year of COVID ministry is hard, so I understand pastors are stressed and everything, but I've gone through the pastoral search process with other guys in our church for three times now, and now we're looking at a fourth. I'm tired, and just don't know if there's wisdom in moving to a stronger, more steady church. Well, that's what your wife had to decide, because it could be that God's calling you to enter church. It could be that God's calling you to stay there. And discerning the will of God is a difficult thing. And if you're looking and you're saying, we need more stability, then you and your wife need to pray through that and find out what the root of it is.

Is stability itself the issue? Is something else besides that? These are just questions when we self-examine our motives.

Sure. And that's just part of what it is. And so the issue of why you're concerned, I think you're getting kind of discouraged that people stay for a while, then they just leave. And what's that say about that church? Maybe it's saying that the people who are picking the pastors aren't doing a good job. It could be that statistically, you're just going to have churches where one person stays for 800 years and in eight years you have five pastors, because statistically the bell curve, things are just going to happen. So what you've got to be doing through it is praying.

I know you already know this. You pray, Lord, what's going on and why is this happening and what is on my heart? It's a big mess, because I hate when these kind of messes occur, because you can never really, at least in my life, never get really a solid, clear answer. And sometimes not knowing the will of God is the will of God. And that's what I don't like sometimes.

Sometimes he goes, I'm not telling you the will. I've got to trust you. You've got to go through this.

And you make the best decisions as you possibly can. So I recommend that you pray about this with your wife. See what she says. Women, they have great insights. She could tell you things about yourself you probably aren't even aware of, assuming you're married, and you could discuss these things. My wife, it doesn't work with her, because I don't trust her judgment, because she married me. So I just forget that. I can't trust her judgment.

That's what it is. But most women are smart and they don't marry guys like me unless you're like me. Full story for your wife. But trust your wife and see and pray and ask and talk to people, because it could be that God wants someone like you there to be an anchor through the difficult times of finding new pastors and being that common thread of strength that others can lean on that you can help provide as a possibility. So it's a tough one. Yeah, I feel like that's where we've been the last three times that we've gone through this process, and looking at this fourth time, I feel personally tired and weary, and find it hard to be the guy that everybody leans on or that really steps up and fills all the holes that need to be filled in a transition like that. So now you know what ministry's like a little bit. Oh yeah, like I said, I watched my dad do it for decades and I know it's exhausting and that's I guess where I am.

I'm just kind of exhausted and don't know if I should just suck it up and keep going or try to transition to a ministry that's already more sustainable and just dig in there. How many people are in this church? Currently in about 50. Okay. That's adults and children. Are you in a rural area or city or what?

No, we're in a suburb of the Des Moines area. Okay. I wish I had a great answer for you. I wish I could just accidentally say something that's really profound and it gives you the answer, but unless God does it, it's not happening.

Sometimes, from my experiences not knowing, sometimes what I've seen is you plod through it as you seek God and somehow it works out. That doesn't sound very comforting because that plodding through is so laborious, but that's what we've got to do sometimes. And there's a break.

Yeah. So hold on, we'll talk a little bit more after the break, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back.

We have two open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show.

Aaron, you still there? Yes, sir. Yeah, man, I wish I had better words for you. It's a tough one. It's a tough one. Yeah. So your discouragement is something you've got to work through.

I think you've got to work through it with your wife and I'd push through a little bit to help them transition and then maybe leave because, let me ask, are you an elder by any chance? Well, that's partially one of the things that I think contributes to it. Our church quality is we have one... I'm a deacon. We just have one pastor and then several deacons. Okay, so you're functioning as an elder. You're supposed to have elders even at 50 people, normally speaking. If the church has been around for a while, there should be at least one elder. But that's okay. So you're functioning as an elder, that means you need to carry out the responsibilities there until it's done. And then consider moving on if that's something you still think you need to do.

You there? Sure. Well, that's what it is. That's why I ask if you're an elder, then you're committed to doing what you've got to do in the church to help the body of Christ because that's what the elder is for. The elder should be able to preach and teach, defend the faith and things like that. And so you're in that position by appointment from God. And so if you're an elder elder, then I would say, you know, I think you need to stay.

Make sure the transition works. And then when it's time to go, you resign your eldership and you go. If you're a deacon, it's still a serious position, but there aren't any of the elders in your church so you're functioning as an elder. And is there a pastor there right now or is it an empty pulpit? It's an empty pulpit, yeah. Who's preaching? We're having some different, these are retired guys, retired pastors or some seminary professors come in and preach as well. How come some of the men aren't preaching in the church? They should be preaching. Raise up people from inside the church. That doesn't mean that you always have to do that, but it sounds to me like the church isn't functioning properly. It needs to have elders. And the elders are supposed to be able to teach, and they can do that from the pulpit.

They don't have to be great communicators, but they need to step up. And if I were a visiting pastor, you know, say you came in and you asked me to preach, you know, I knew the situation, I'd say, well, gentlemen, let's have a talk. Okay, are there any elders here? No, why not? You know, not examining with a stern face, but just, you know, how come? What's up?

What's the issues? Because a lot of times, you know, they could have had an elder and then he left and, you know, and you've got to find out. If it's been years since they've had elders, then what's the reason? Is it because the previous pastor wasn't doing his job, or is it because the pool to draw from is pretty bad?

You know, these are possibilities. And so this needs to be looked at, but generally speaking, the elders are supposed to fill that pulpit until they find a proper pastor, because it's what the scriptures allude to. But in the meantime, you know, so I don't know if you're able to preach.

It's not hard. You get up and you open the word of God and I can help you develop sermons and you can preach. But the thing is that it's a serious thing getting in that pulpit, presenting the truth, the word of God to God's people.

But I think that we men need to... Understood. It is.

It is. And I've been preaching for decades and I still get intimidated when I go up to the pulpit. I take it very seriously. But nevertheless, we men need to stick it out in the church and do what's necessary and make sure that things are taken care of. And I'm not trying to say, you know, you're just jumping ship. I don't believe that you're that kind of man. That's not what's happening.

You're trying to figure things out, and that's good. But if you're a deacon, you're an officer in the church, I would recommend that you consider seeing the process through until that vacancy is taken care of and then see about the issue of leaving at that time. But also, if you're going to be interviewing any pastors, potential pastors, you'd ask them, what's your rate of commitment? What's your commitment like?

We've had pastors leave after three, four, five years. And we understand that you may have to after three, four, five years as well because life happens. Things change, you know. But what's your commitment for? And ask them, those kind of things.

And if you need to, you know, if you really are desperate, you can call me up and I can grill them over the phone and then, well, you probably would just run at that point. But, you know, I'm always there. He'll mess things up. Yeah. All right. Well, I appreciate your wisdom. Thanks, Matt.

I don't know about wisdom, but I gave you my opinion, okay? All right, man? Yeah. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Okay, Aaron, God bless. All right. Let's get to CJ from Boise, Idaho. CJ, welcome.

You're on the air. Thank you. So, I just want to be pretty straightforward with the question because I know that we're nearing the end of the hour here. But, I've had a long battle with the idea of the Trinity. Okay. And it only seems to get worse as I studied.

Okay. And, you know, I guess one of my biggest, you know, problems with the Trinity is not only the extreme, like, dogmatism of it. It almost seems sometimes people want me to affirm the Trinity more so than the actual Trinity of Christ, but also, and even greater than that, is I can't for the life of me find an anti-nustine father who is an orthodox Trinitarian. And it bothers me that people are so readily condemning confused brothers and sisters like myself when, you know, like, for example, Tertullian, you know, he coins Trinitas. I mean, he calls Christ generated, and he calls Christ birthed, and he calls Christ created, and he says he's subordinate, and he says that there's only one God, and that's explicitly the Father, and I mean, like, this guy's just not a Trinitarian. He doesn't appear to believe that these people are co-equal.

Not necessarily. Because subordination is different than subordinationism. And the creation can refer to the person of Christ with two natures, which occurred 2,000 years ago. It does not necessitate that he deny the Trinity. It's just a matter of understanding the terms and the concepts as they relate.

Okay. Well, so what about, though, when he says that, like, Christ is generated? Because he almost seems to be speaking of in, like, eternity past that he's generated, and I even think he uses the phrase eternal generation.

Yes. And we're just talking about, you know, he says that the Son proceeds from the Father, and so there are, there's a lot of debate and discussions among theologians about what that means, the procession. And so, the eternal generation of the Son is one of the things that is an issue.

And so, here's the thing. Imagine, if you can, just for a minute, the idea of God being a Trinity. Three persons, but yet one being, who exist eternally. And inside of that, we have Ephesians 1, 4, which says, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. He is the Father who chose us, the elect, in Him, which is Christ. So, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Well, that means, in order to be elected, we could only be elected if Christ, the Word, who's going to become Christ, was there.

Otherwise, we could not be elected in Him. There has to be a simultaneity going on in the Trinitarian God, in the Godhead, for that to be. Along with that is the issue of the eternally begotten Son. Well, how can He be eternally begotten? He's eternally begotten in the sense that it was always in the mind of God, always, that the Son would become begotten in the human form, and hence, He'd be eternally begotten, because it was always part of the decree of God that that would occur. It was never decided on, because God doesn't make decisions in the sense of putting information together, then learning, then making decision.

Because all knowledge is instantaneous and eternal with Him. So, we're talking about the procession. There's, from the Father and the Son, filioque, there's this division issue that has happened in 1054, the church split, and all this kind of stuff. Does the Holy Spirit proceed?

Does the Son proceed? And here's the answer. We don't really have a good answer for it. We don't know what it is exactly. We do know that there's some way that the Son proceeds from the Father, but yet without being created.

And so, these are things that the theologians have been arguing about and debating and measuring for years. It does not disrupt the Trinity. It's not a challenge of the Trinity at all. If anything, it supports a doctrine of the Trinity.

And if you were to abandon the doctrine of the Trinity, then all kinds of problems arise. Now, you're in Boise, right? Yes, sir. Well, I'm thinking about having a Bible study here at the house, and I'd be willing to meet you in public to check you out, and then maybe, if you want, we can get together at that point or some other point, and I can just sit there and ask your questions for you. We can go over stuff more quickly, but not rushed in time, if you want. It's up to you, man.

Absolutely. I actually have been trying to fill up most of my time with some level of study, so that would actually be a pretty awesome thing on my own. Well, I'll tell you what. You e-mail me after the show or whatever. Just e-mail me info at karme.org and just say, hey, it's CJ from Boise, and I'll check within a few minutes after the show or within a half hour or whatever. I'll check, and then maybe we can set up a meeting. All right? We can get together.

It's not a big deal. We can go have a cup of coffee, some quiet place, because I have hearing problems in loud noises areas. I don't do well.

So some semi-quiet place is my autism that kicks in. So if you're willing to do that, sounds good, man. I'll do it.

You want to? We can talk. Absolutely. I'll actually get the e-mail right after this phone call. Okay.

Sounds good, and I'll e-mail you back. We'll figure something out, all right? I appreciate that. Hey, no sweat, man. It's okay. And don't worry about it.

I can answer a lot of questions, and maybe I can't answer them all to your satisfaction, but you know what? Work through it. Okay? Sound good? Yeah, absolutely. All right, man. You give me a call.

I'll be in. You e-mail me, okay? Yeah, absolutely, and God bless you. God bless.

All right. Well, let's get to the last caller. Brad from Ohio, if Brad is still there. Brad, are you there? Hi, Matt. Yeah, I'm here. Hi. Hey, I just have a quick question. Yeah? I said...

I'm losing you. I'm Daniel 1137, and it's talking about the willful king, the anti-Christ, says, Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers. My question, to put it simply, is, is the future ethnicity of the anti-Christ Jewish, or is he Gentile in descent?

It seems as if that's the case, that he'd be Jewish, but God of his own fathers, but we don't know, because it could be, because a God whom his fathers did not know. But then it says the people of the prince to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and so, and I believe that's referring to the anti-Christ prince to come. It looks like it. Meaning the revived... Right. And it also says he'll have no desire for women, too, in verse 37. Correct. Yeah.

So the ethnicity, there have been experts who've said it could be anything from Jewish to Gentile to Muslim. And I just haven't gotten... What's the scripture? Sorry, go ahead. I know.

I was looking more for scriptural arguments, because I've got some logical ones, like my pastor preached that, and that he was Jewish. Maybe. But if I were to preach it, I'd say one view is this, another this, another that. I don't know yet. Yeah.

I don't know if we can know. Yeah. Yeah, because it's not clear. But I need you to look at it, though. Okay.

And we're out of time, man. Yeah. We can talk about that some more, okay? All right. Thank you. All right, buddy. God bless.

Hey, folks, we are out of time. May the Lord bless you. I hope you had a great time listening, and by his grace, we'll be back on here tomorrow, and we'll talk to you then. See you. God bless you.