Defunding the Church

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This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Man Talk, brought to you by TAWCMN, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where they're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination and challenging men to take their God-assigned role. Here's our hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy.

Welcome back to Man Talk Radio. This is Roy Jones, and I am the white guy in the second half of the show here. And I'm Will Hardy, the black guy.

And you would be the first half of the show. Oh, my goodness. The number one position, Will. You're putting me on the spot. Yes, indeed. Hey, Will, it's good to see you again.

And likewise to you, sir. Well, we've got a very special guest with us today. You guys may have heard him in the past, Pastor Ken Cline. He's from Christ Wesleyan Church in Greensboro, North Carolina.

And he and I were having lunch on Sunday, just last Sunday, and just having thought, well, this would be a great opportunity to chat and get him back on the program with us. So one of the things we want to talk about is, you know, we've heard a ton about defunding the police department, defunding government, defunding all different things right in the middle of all the protests and the pandemic and so much going on. But what happens when the church gets defunded?

Wow. I mean, and that's significant because I think what it says is it says a whole lot and surrounded around the fear of COVID, you know, and what's happening out there. And, you know, they're looking at the stories every day on the news and people are dying, the first responders being exhausted. And I think it's just a plethora of things that's happening, you know, with respect to why the defunding is occurring. And, you know, there are several, several hundred churches, Roy, that have shut down because people are not coming and they're not giving anymore. Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is when you think defunding, you're thinking financially.

Finances are low. We're talking defunding with just people in general. That's right. And the servant, you know, showing up and doing what people do in the church. The church isn't a building, the church is people. And when the people don't show, and I'm not, I'm not talking about just in person, people showing up that our numbers aren't what they used to be.

That's obvious. But I'm talking about even the ones that are on the fringe of, you know, because of COVID, they're staying at home. We're seeing less activity, less response. It held up for a little while going into late summer, June, July, August. And now we're just seeing, I think, probably nationwide, we're just seeing a real decrease in people, in energy, in funding and finances all the way around the churches.

Kind of entering a strange period. I don't think they've ever seen it. Yeah, that's a good point, Ken. And when we talk about defunding, like Ken mentioned, it's people aside, which is the resource piece, the volunteers, you know, you have people that are supposed to be there, commit to being there, and then they wake up on Sunday morning and say, well, I'll just watch it online.

They only realize that that failure to show impacts the worship, impacts the ministry to the other people that do show up. So what we're doing, you know, this show's about talking to men and men things and the role that men need to take. So we want to make sure that we're clear together as brothers in Christ, that three of us sitting here talking to you as our brothers in Christ and any of the ladies listening, encourage your husbands and boyfriends and sons to do the same, that we can't backpedal in the midst of the storm. You can take precautions, wear the face mask, do those sorts of things. Now, if you're a high-risk individual, we certainly understand that. And we're not saying be careless. We're saying be very cautious. But if you serve the God who created everything, you've got to trust him to take care of all these things when you're stepping out. And yet we've been eight months in this pandemic.

No signs of it slowing down, at least in the near future, the very near future. So we need to be prepared and react properly. And I think this is what our call to action to you as men and women that are listening today is that very thing. Don't defund the church by your absence. Don't defund the church by your lack of tithing and so forth and so on. Because we're going to talk a little bit about what that does and how that impacts the community as well as the body of Christ.

Absolutely, Roy. And the whole ideal, I think, when it comes to the church and functioning in the church and this fear factor that we have, we have to understand that God is always in control. I hear people say all the time, God is still on the throne. Well, that gives the impression that he left and then he came back, which he never left. So he's always been there. So when I hear people say God is still on the throne, it's like, oh, did he have a period where he was absent? And the answer, of course, is no.

God has always been there. And we, as God's people, I think we need to sound that message out loud and clear. You know, not only to the men, but to all of the listeners who listen to the podcast that he will take care of you. But put the mask on, wash the hands and social distance. I believe if you do those things that when we talked about on another show, we talked about those things are like warnings. You know, and it's just like when when Moses came to Pharaoh and he said, let my people go. And that was the warning.

Let them go or else. And when he didn't take heed, the or else came. Right. You know, so it was plague, warning, plague, warning, plague, warning, and they kept coming. And so I think our warning is do what we can do by social distancing, wearing the mask, washing hands, those type of things. I agree. Well, as he was talking, I was wondering if you're going down the path of warning being the pandemic.

And I would even maybe expound on that. Maybe the pandemic is part of the warning will to you're right about the precautionary measures. But I'm going to challenge the listeners and us here to get some of the dialogue going that we've talked early on when this thing started. This is a wake up call.

It is. It truly is a wake up call. And if the church doesn't wake up, then what hope is there for the unchurched? And with the conversation that we're on about defunding the church by absenteeism, lack of tithing, all those things. Instead of growing stronger, we're getting weaker as a church body right now. And I think the Barna studies we've talked about saying as much as 40 to 60 percent of the people won't return to church.

You know, that we're attending before the pandemic, which as a pastor, Ken, that's got to as a serving full time pastor, that's got to really concern you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're definitely seeing it even now. There's there are a lot of people that were communicating well in the early part of this. And now they're missing. Totally missing. Yeah, they've gone gone silent, gone on the radar. And I and I feel like those are people that may have been a little bit on the fringe before COVID-19 that were either either bored with with where they were or just not feeling it or whatever.

You know, the church has got to make it happen. And when we go into COVID and we're at home more, all of a sudden it's very easy to say, well, that was just a component of my life and I'm doing OK without it. And so it's sad. But at the same time, it's our greatest hour and we should be we should be rising up. So we are the hope in a world that's full of anxiety, fear, depression, negativity and everything else.

We've got the answer. And it's interesting because really the last the last four or five months, our message has been a real positive message. Right now is not really the time I'm preaching on hell and and demons and fire and brimstone and all these things like that. Right now, I'm trying to get keep people in a positive, you know, we're OK. And so, yeah, there's a little bit of fears. Where's this going in the long run as far as not really I guess I shouldn't call it a fear. We're in a question period.

And but at the same time, the shepherds are saying, come on, folks, we've got to work to do. Don't leave now. Don't go complacent. Don't go, you know, don't stay in this funk. You got it.

We need you more than we ever need you. It's almost as if we're allowing media and I guess we are not as if we are, but it's allow media is really driving the behavior of the church. And this goes back to what we've talked about before. Right. The church is supposed to impact the world, not the world impact the church.

And I think this is a prime example where in a very negative way, the world is impacting the church because the media and all the things that we're hearing and it's scaring people. And, you know, again, back to the earlier conversation, need to be cautious. Need to take the right measures to protect yourself and others.

But as long as you're healthy and you're feeling good and if you want to go get tested, now you can get the test, the almost immediate response test right within 10 minutes to get checked to make sure you're not a carrier to protect people around you. Yeah, that's by all means do that. And if all checks clear, reengage, folks, we've got to reengage. And, you know, I want to just speak briefly, Roy, to the people who might say, well, why should I have to do that if God is supernatural and he can just heal and take this thing away? Well, God can do whatever he needs to do and he will do whatever he wants to do.

The question is, is we have to do what we have to do to engage ourselves and challenge ourselves to get out there and say, I'm going to heed the warning of wearing the mask, washing the hands, social distancing, doing whatever I need to do. Because I saw a story yesterday. It was really, really sad. It was a 13 or 14 year old boy. It was on the National News Channel and he had committed suicide as a result of COVID and not being able to interact with his friends.

And his dad, in fact, the video I'm sure is out there on some of the social media platforms, but he said, I was so close to recognizing where he was headed, but he said I wasn't there from the time that he made that move and went off the edge. But he said I was so close because I saw changes in him, he said, but I didn't react soon enough. Well, we weren't designed to be isolated. I mean, God created Adam and Eve for communion and fellowship, right?

With each other and with him. And that by design meant that we're supposed to be fellowshipping with others. So to be locked down in a house, especially for a young person who has never dealt with a crisis, and most adults have never dealt with this crisis of this magnitude.

I would dare say any of us with the exception of maybe some very, very old folks that may have lived early, early on in the centuries. But this is a time when, a very unique time, and we need to be supporting each other. It goes back to the earlier commentary that we can't isolate ourselves and just dive into home and walk away from church and all the things that we know are our strength givers, right?

And our strength suppliers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's a question I want you guys to talk about with me a little bit. When we talk about defunding, and when the break comes, just let me know. So when we talk about defunding, numbers.

That's about 60 seconds away, by the way. And we'll pick it up after the break. The numbers, the money, and the different things that church looks different, well, it does across the country.

But I guess my question would be, just because the church is different and a lot of people are worshipping at home, they're doing Facebook Live or YouTube, does the church still have the ability to impact even though they're operating different and safe? And so I've got some ideas, and we'll pick that up after break. A little bit of some things we're doing.

That's a great question, Ken. As we get ready for break, we just want to call out our sponsor, affordable chiropractor, Dr. Jeff Fricke. You'll hear about him in just a moment.

Please, if you're in the High Point area or you're in need of a chiropractor or spinal adjustment, please visit Dr. Fricke. He'll be more than happy to take good care of you. So we'll be right back with you folks. It's a pleasure to have you join us here on ManTalk Radio Podcast. We'll be right back. Welcome back to ManTalk Radio, and we're here with Pastor Ken Kline and Roy Jones Jr., the white guy.

He's over there, too. But right before the break, you know, we were talking about things, because the church looked differently, what kind of impact that we can have, you know, as pastors, you know, with the congregation. What things can we do differently in order to still impact the people and, you know, and keep that up? Because I think as we were in the break and you were talking, Ken, I was thinking about one thing God is doing is God is purging the church with this COVID. Oh, yes, most definitely. And people like you, you were describing, you know, earlier before we came on the air, individuals who were already on the fence, and now they just simply use COVID now as the reason. Right, go ahead and break away. Exactly.

So they weren't all there anyway. And people, you know who you are. You're out there, you know, listening.

Don't be one of those individuals. Don't allow the enemy to buffet you in such a way as to keep you, you know, depressed and keep you in that anxiety state. So Pastor Ken, talk about some of the things that you're doing with the fellowship in reference to bringing or keeping that energy up. Yeah, energy.

You know, it's interesting. We talked about the purging, but also another word that just popped into my head is the scattering, which isn't a bad thing. You remember what happened after they stoned Stephen in Acts Chapter 6 and the great persecution that broke out against the church and it says, and the saints were scattered and the people were scattered. That just sent them out to do a work. Planting the water brought.

Yeah. And, you know, Philip wound up down in that city in Samaria, just leading the whole place, you know, just broke out. So, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean just because people are out and that all the energy doesn't hinge around this one corporate meeting on Sunday. Does that mean the church is in trouble?

You got to look at what the church is and what it always was supposed to be. One of the things we've done really since this summer was what if every month we had a project that involved the community outside of us, not us. What if we just started giving ourselves away? So every month we've done a project. We took on the Baptist Children's Home in Thomasville where we got all the supplies for dorms and we just spent several weeks gathering and taking down.

We had a great time doing it. We have all our shoeboxes packed up for Samaritan's Purse ready to deliver tomorrow down to Charlotte. We're already starting our 50 meals, preparing our 50 Thanksgiving meals, getting the food in for that. That'll be taking place this month.

We've already got a project on schedule for coats and scarves and gloves and stuff for next month in December. And that's just bringing a lot of new energy and the people are getting excited. But, yeah, the group's probably half as far as the corporate worship goes.

Interesting enough, we have probably eight times that that are watching online that are tuning in to Facebook Live and these other things. But the energy's still there within the church, but the energy isn't just in a vibrant worship service. It's giving ourselves – and we can do that safe.

We can do these projects and have people come pack boxes and prepare meals that are 15 feet apart, wearing masks, and do it in a safe way. So I want to honor that system, too. But I love – there's a verse in Scripture in Proverbs that says, when you refresh others – I think it's Proverbs 11, 25. The second part says, when you refresh others, what?

You, too, will be refreshed. And one of the best ways we can show up as a church is let's give ourselves away. Let's work together. But we have to do it joyfully. I think the world's watching us, too, and we can't be these glum, down, negative. We have to be joyful as we're showing up. So I hope when people see our congregation and they see it that we are meeting, but we are doing it in a safe fashion.

But I love that we still have energy. Not only our service, but the service after us with La Roca Church from Winston Greensboro. They have a service right after us in our sanctuary. Flags are flying.

Front doors are open. Everybody's in there, every other pew with masks on. But it's a beautiful thing.

So it doesn't have to be dying. I guess this is a good way we can serve. We can show up in that way. And if you're listening to the program and you're not currently in a church, we encourage you to go find a place to worship because it's important to engage. And maybe you've been one of these people that have been sitting on the fence and not been active and you say, well, tomorrow, I'll do it tomorrow. Well, folks, we've talked about this many times.

Tomorrow may never come. And if it doesn't come and you're standing before the Father, what is going to be your view? And, you know, Roy, this is the time for the strong to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves, as the Word of God tells us. But I'm reminded of Luke chapter 8 and verses 22 through 25, when Jesus said, hey, guys, let's get in this boat and go to the other side. And then he went down and took a nap. And when he took the nap, and then all of a sudden, you know, the storm came. And I believe, this is what I believe. I believe that storm came to test the faith of the individual disciples who were with him. Because what did Jesus say when they went down?

Oh, Master, Master, we are going to perish. And so he went up and what's the first thing he said? O ye of little faith.

That's what he said. O ye of little faith. And so he came up and was like, you guys should be able to take care of this.

You know, how long have you been walking with me? So he get up out to the boat and rebuke the wind. And then they look at him astonishingly. And then they say in that last verse, the 25th verse, it's like this.

Who is this man among us? Yeah, because he's controlling the wind and the rain. So he must be the Son of God. Well, we just talked about that this past week in the Bible study I was sitting in on Sunday night, was the different account of that, but in another book, another one of the Gospels. And it's, you know, if you think about it, at that point, they did not recognize Jesus as their Savior.

If you think about the illustration, then all of a sudden they're in the middle of the storm and they really think they're going to die. So I thought I took it. That was the first illustration. I am your savior, even though they had little faith. What he was trying to teach them was to have faith.

But there was the first indication. I am your savior. And see, there's a lot that you can pull from that particular verse and apply it to your life.

And one is, you know, hey guys, I'm down here taking a nap. You should be able to handle this. And so Jesus is, he wanted them, just like he wants us today to exercise our faith. Amen. Put your faith in the practice. You know, you come to worship on Sunday. You praise the Lord.

Raise your hands. We say hallelujah. We pray for each other.

But then in a time of crisis, where are you? Where's your faith? And put that faith in the practice.

Get up off of that couch. Put the faith. There's all kinds of ways you can do things safely, as Pastor Ken was just eluding to, you know, and what they're doing.

So things can still be done and be done in a socially distant manner without, you know, ensuring that we put ourselves in jeopardy when we're in coaxed quarters and things like that. God is able. Amen. He's able. Yes, he is.

Yep. Well, one of the things that we want to talk about as well as part of this defunding the church is how can you make a difference if you're not in the church and how can you make a difference if you're in the church, right? So as we're wrapping this thing up here, if you're outside the church and you want to make a difference and you're willing to volunteer and get engaged at one of your local facilities, hey, Ken Klein has a multi-racial church, multi-country. I mean, how many different countries?

Pretty much everything. We are Latino. We are African American.

We are Asian. We are old, young, rich, poor, everything. And he welcomes everybody as most churches do. I won't say all churches because we've seen some that, you know, they tend to want to stay the way they are, but that's okay. God's got other places for us to go to. But Ken is definitely one of those buildings we just want to invite you to be a part of. That's Christ Wesleyan. What is it? South Holden Road. What's the number again? 2400 South Holden Road in Greensboro.

In Greensboro. So he'd love to have you. Hey, Will, I think we've got a clip pulled up here that we'd like to play for folks as we're moving into our last couple minutes. Yeah, because when you when you are like we are now in the storm, ensure that God is able. So listen to this song by Casting Crowns that I praise you in the storm. And if you can praise God in the storm, you can praise Him anywhere.

I was sure by now, God, you would have reached down and wiped our tears away, stepped in and saved the day. Once again, I say amen and it's still raining as the thunder rolls, I barely hear you whisper through the rain, I'm with you. And as your mercy falls, I'll raise my hands and praise the God who gives and takes away. And I'll praise you in this storm and I will lift my hands, you are who you are, no matter where I am and every tear I've cried, you hold in your hand. You never left my side, though my heart is torn, I will praise you in this storm.

So whatever you are going through, and there's all kinds of things socially, family wise, financial wise, psychological wise, mentally wise, whatever it is that you're going through, you should be able to praise God in the storm. Amen. Amen.

Will, that was a great clip that you picked out for us. And Father, we just thank you for this time together. We just pray for all the folks that are listening and those that aren't that were missing this week that you watch over and protect them, Father. Keep everybody safe through this pandemic, Lord, and just give them hope and carry them through the storm, Father. It's in your son's precious name we come to you today.

Amen. Ken, it's been a great pleasure having you with us. And folks, if you're looking for church, again, go visit Christ Wesleyan 2400 South Holden Road and ask for Pastor Ken Klein.

He'll be the one that looks similar to me, just a little bit smaller frame, better shape, but not quite as good looking and got a bald head. So he'll be glad to welcome you into his church and congregation. Will, you want to take us out?

Last ten seconds. Lord, we thank you just for the opportunity to come together once again and thank God for all of the listeners. Praise God, and we'll see you next time. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry, is building a community of men that are Christ followers with the desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk.