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House or Home - Parenting Edition - What's a Parent to Do?, Part 2

Living on the Edge / Chip Ingram
The Truth Network Radio
April 25, 2024 6:00 am

House or Home - Parenting Edition - What's a Parent to Do?, Part 2

Living on the Edge / Chip Ingram

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April 25, 2024 6:00 am

When it comes to raising your kids do you ever feel like a human ping-pong ball? One day all is well and the next day World War 3 breaks out! Would you like to regain control, set clear boundaries, and develop an atmosphere of love and respect in your home? Well, look no further, because in this message, Chip shows you how to parent with love and limits, and regain your sanity!

Main Points

God's prescription for child development - Hebrews 12:4-11

How to parent with love and limits:

  • Actions = Consistent consequences - Proberbs 13:24; 22:15
  • Words = Clear instructions - Proverbs 1:8; 2:1-2; 3:1; 7:1-2

Practical tips for balanced parenting:

  1. Have a few, clear rules/responsibilities.
  2. Develop written contracts.
  3. Negotiate consequences.
  4. Be consistent!
  5. The older they get, the fewer the rules.
  6. Train them to be on their own.
Broadcast Resource Additional Resource Mentions About Chip Ingram

Chip Ingram’s passion is helping Christians really live like Christians. As a pastor, author, and teacher for more than three decades, Chip has helped believers around the world move from spiritual spectators to healthy, authentic disciples of Jesus by living out God’s truth in their lives and relationships in transformational ways.

About Living on the Edge

Living on the Edge exists to help Christians live like Christians. Established in 1995 as the radio ministry of pastor and author Chip Ingram, God has since grown it into a global discipleship ministry. Living on the Edge provides Biblical teaching and discipleship resources that challenge and equip spiritually hungry Christians all over the world to become mature disciples of Jesus.

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If there's one question as a pastor that I get asked from parents all the time, it's this. How do I get my kids to mind? How do you discipline appropriately?

Whether it's a two-year-old out of control in the grocery store or a teenager that just won't listen, how do we discipline our kids in a way that's both loving and consistent? Let me tell you, it's today. You don't want to miss it. Thanks for listening to this Edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. Living on the Edge is an international teaching and discipleship ministry focused on helping Christians live like Christians. And as Chip teased, today he's diving back into the challenging subject of discipline, examining what a balanced approach from moms and dads looks like no matter what the kids' ages are. Like last time, Chip has a lot of practical help to share from Ephesians chapter six, so let's get going. Here now is the remainder of his talk, What's a Parent to Do. We've said that you need to parent with love and with limits. Imagine it's the highway of parenting and guardrail on this side is love, guardrail on this side is limits.

Real practically, how do you do this? And what I'm going to do is I'm just going to give you a real overview. This is kind of the big picture and inside of each of these things I'm going to talk about, that's what we covered in Effective Parenting. But this will give you the picture of where to go.

You ready? Actions and words. Actions, consistent consequences in Proverbs 13, 24 and Proverbs 22, 15, they just make very strong statements about this.

You need to act. You need to understand that it talks about the rod of discipline. You need to have certain actions that negatively reward bad behavior and you need to have certain actions that positively reward good behavior. Okay, so he says there's an issue with actions. So let's talk about actions when your kids are small, action when your kids are like pre-teens to early teens, and actions when they're teenagers. The issue with small children is obedience. It's submission to your word. Obedience is being under the hearing of a parent and that's your goal.

I mean from little on, when they're a small child, the number one goal. You just want your kids to learn to obey your voice. You can teach a kid that when you scream and you're out of control, they better act or something's going to happen or you can teach them, Mary, and if necessary, walk over, make eye contact, look them in the eye, we're going to leave in about one minute. Right now, pick up the toys.

Do you understand? And Mary responds in about the next five seconds or Mary has an experience that's unpleasant, knowing that mom or dad really mean it. And so with small kids, the issue is obedience.

Say no firmly. That's the action. With pre-teens, the issue is responsibility. You want to feed your kids responsibility. You want to learn to be responsible for their attitudes and their actions. This has to do with chores, cleaning their room, school, their tongue, how they speak, a respect for authority, and their attitude. And this is every kid needs to learn to be responsible. I mean that's, at the end of the day, that's what maturity is. Maturity isn't an age issue. There's 30-year-old guys living in the back of bedrooms that still aren't responsible for their own laundry, paying their own bills, paying their own insurance.

Why? Because their parents didn't teach them that. You go into training early and you want them to be responsible. This is your bed. You make your bed. We have frazzled parents holding down a job here, running from here to there. Then you cook and you fold the laundry and you do the bed and you clean up the house while the kids are going, Mom, you done with that yet? You know, got the video game going.

Hey, you got that going? They can set the table at five and six. They need to help you. They need to get up on a stool and learn how to cook basic things. By the time they're 10, 11, and 12, they can learn how to put a load of clothes in the laundry.

Yes, they'll mess it up some. Perfectionistic. Everything's got to be perfect parents like myself, all right? But either you keep doing it or you teach them.

I have a story of one of my sons. His job was the trash every day. I mean, how hard is it? You take out the trash, okay?

It's not that big. You empty the little buckets and you put it out in the trash can. For me, it wasn't even... I just wanted him to learn to be responsible. So you make your bed and his was take out the trash. So I would come home, trash is not taken out.

And then here's where not good parenting happens. Why didn't you take out the trash? That's a silly question. How come? How come?

How come? Well, now you're in a power issue. So I did that.

I got upset with him and I was hacked off at him and then he felt bad. So finally I realized, wait a second, I should do this parenting stuff, limits and logic and these books I'm reading. So I remember, I said, this is going to keep it real simple. And I checked with his mother so he'd be on the same page. I know this would be conflict.

The biggest conflict in our marriage was always about disciplining our kids, being on the same page. I said, if when I get home, we eat at 5.30, correct? At 5.15, if the trash isn't taken out, it's just real simple. You don't eat. You just go to your bedroom.

Okay? And then when we have breakfast, you'll get to eat. Teresa, oh no, what if he... Honey, he won't starve. I'm telling you, there's kids all over the world that go make it on a couple meals a day.

He's not going to starve. That's so cruel. I said, honey, let's just... Okay, look, we're doing this.

And so I told him, eye contact, and so it was like, yeah, okay, I'll remember, I'll remember. Well, 5.15, next day, what do we know for sure? Trash is not taken out. And of all times, it was pizza night. So pizza's here, you know, and so we're there. And so he sits down at the table, and I said, excuse me, but at 5.15, I checked the trash. It wasn't done. You're excused.

What do you mean? You're excused. You can go to your bedroom. I mean, I can't have any pizza? Remember what we said yesterday? And then, of course, Teresa's going... You know, so you're excused. And then he went to his bedroom, and I got this, honey, don't you think? I mean, don't you think we can just give you one piece or... Well, I mean, I think one other time, in the next few years, he ever forgot to take out the trash.

You get it? Don't nag your kids. I mean, when all my kids got close to junior high, they got an alarm clock.

Guess what they can learn to do? Be responsible to get up. The mornings in some homes are just chaos every day. Get up. It's time to get up. I'm not going to call you how many times?

Yes, you do. You keep calling them seven times, they'll get up seven times, they get an alarm clock, and then there's consequences. Now, this sounds really terrible. I guess you don't go to school today, but I have a test. It's going to be a rough day, I guess. Do you think they're going to have an employer someday that's going to go, oh, did you sleep in? I'm so sorry.

Everything's going to be okay. I mean, when are they going to learn to be responsible? All my kids have told me one of the greatest things that happened in their life is they have a great work ethic and they're responsible.

You don't even have to be smart in our world today if you're responsible because you can't find responsible people. You teach that with consequences. The third is when they're teenagers, the issue is choices. You want them to become self-disciplined and you want them to make wise choices. Wise choices about friends, about money, about time, about clothes, about music, about movies, about priorities, about their phone, about video games, about YouTube, about Facebook. And in this one, you use contracts. And so you have actions and attitudes.

I mean, the issues with kids are not that many, right? They pick on each other and fight. That's a good one.

They don't do their homework. That's a good one. They talk back and are disrespectful.

That's a good one. They hang around with some kids that you tell them those are bad news. We don't hang around with them. I mean, you tell them, you know, here's the parameter of what's good and clean and what we're gonna watch and here's what's not, right? And they're kids. They're like us.

Like, did we not break all those? I did. I mean, some of you didn't, but you're amazing. But most of your kids will. So it's not like, oh, what am I gonna do? It's like, okay, here's the behaviors and they're different with different kids.

When these things happen, here's the consequences. And what I learned is then it got out of that nagging and power struggle. So, you know, Jason was our oldest. He actually wasn't the oldest, but he was the biggest. And so he would beat up Eric on a regular basis.

And then Eric would beat up Ryan and Ryan would tease Annie. And so it just went on and on and on. And so it was, okay, Jason, what could we do to help you not beat up your brother? I mean, this is, you just can't keep doing this. And by the way, I mean, this is just normal, you know, sibling robbery conflict. And so, or, you know, one of my sons had this habit of not turning in his schoolwork.

Just didn't know. He did well on the test, but he just didn't do it. And so whatever it was is you say, this is the behavior, here's the consequence. When this behavior happens, here's the consequence.

And I often, after not working very well early on, I would ask them, we'll talk about this in a minute, what would help you obey God and obey me? I don't want to fight over this. You're not turning your homework or you're not doing this or you're, well, you know, if you grounded me for like three days, okay, that's good. And we'd get a pin out and we actually have a contract. Behavior on this side, consequences on that side. We write this down, so you think that would, would that really help you? Yeah, okay, good, write that in. And then we'd sign the bottom.

And then this would happen. And then I would say, well, you know, you made a commitment that this is the consequence, so you're grounded for three days. Dad, I can't, I made first team and I'm starting tonight and you can't do it now. You can't do this to me.

No, no. I didn't do anything to you. Here's the behavior. You're the one that told me when this happens, three days of grounding.

And then it changes the role. Son, I played basketball in high school and man, I'm sorry. And your mom and I were looking forward to really watching the game. And we love you. And man, we are so bummed out that we can't go either.

And you know what? I'll be glad to, you know, let the coach know that you're not sick, but it's just the coaches understand discipline. And you know, I mean, we've had, we had some missed games, missed the prom. Teresa, you can't let them miss the prom. This is a once in a life experience.

I said, it sure is. I want them to miss a prom and learn a lesson because I'll tell you what, this is the kind of thing that five years from now, it won't be about missing proms. It'll be about issues that could destroy the rest of their life. And this is where you got to get on the same page. And one of you is not always the man. One of you will be the, we're going to be consistent and the other is going to be mercy, mercy, mercy.

I blend those babies together, hear from God. Okay. You can tell who the Mr. Mercy was not.

And Teresa at times on the flip side would go, honey, you know, I know you need to be consistent. You are just over the top on this. Okay. I mean, you're just over the top. You're right.

You just need, you just need to go. And we're always consistent on this issue. I think it's set up for their failure. You need to help them understand what mercy and grace looks like.

And now I will say, my kids would say that might have been few and far between, but she was really wise and really right. But those are actions. What I want you to get is, you get the principle. This isn't that complicated.

Two guard rails, limits. This is what I do. Love. This is what I say.

Okay. Words, clear instructions. Proverbs 1, 8 and 2, 1 to 2 talks about listen my son to your father's instructions and do not forsake your mother's teaching. My son, if you accept my words, store up my commandments within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding. He goes on to say, my son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commandments in your heart.

Do you get it? Accept my words, my commands, my teaching, my instruction. My son, keep my words and store my commandments within you. Keep my commands and you'll live.

Guard my teachings with the apple of your eye. Do you get the idea that instruction is really important? So instruction when they're small, very importantly, needs to be about the who. They're just small, okay?

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, right? They're just small. Who is God?

What is he like? They need to know early on, their mind is just absorbing this word God. They need to hear that he's good and that he's loving and that he's kind and he's powerful and that he's all wise and he's sovereign. And you don't hear, and the way you do that, the how, is you tell them those Old Testament stories and from as early on you find the easiest to read little Bibles with pictures in them, and I mean at bedtime it's sacred. And then after the Old Testament stories, it's the stories about Jesus.

And all they're getting is the who. This is how Jesus feels about people with leprosy. Here's how Jesus feels about people like this lady that made all these really bad mistakes. Here's how Jesus feels about, so it's all about in the early years who, who, who.

Who is God? And there's lots of resources to do that. When they hit the preteens, you want to focus on the what of your instruction. What's right?

What's wrong? It's biblical content. You need them to understand Matthew, Mark, Luke, these three gospels go together and they tell the story of Jesus.

John wrote later, he's talking about those who believe. Here's Acts and here's the story of the early church. When Paul was doing these things, he wrote these letters. These letters tell the people in these churches about this Jesus. All of these things have to do with, oh, God's great plan as it started back here in the Old Testament. This is what it means, salvation.

This is what the truth of God's word says. And you teach him the basic doctrines. God bless Sunday school.

God bless Christian schools. All the help you can get, thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. None of them will stand at the judgment seat of Christ for what your kids know or don't know.

You will. After listening to Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram, we'll get you back to our series House or Home, Parenting Edition in just a minute. But before we do, parents, are you looking to better engage your kids on a spiritual level? Then stick around after the message as Chip highlights a few digital resources we've created that will equip you to lead your kids well and deepen their relationship with God.

You won't want to miss it. Okay, let's get back to today's message. As they become teenagers, you move from the who and the what to the why. The content is how to think, a worldview, apologetic, skills, dig in on their own, a life application. You wanted to make wise decisions about money and about friends and about sex and about God's will and about God's service. Unapologetically, when my kids were teenagers, at times, I bribed them to read certain books. Ten bucks was a lot of money back then. James Sire's book on worldviews, I'll give you ten bucks, read that, we'll discuss it later.

C.S. Lewis's book on mere Christianity. I mean, we read books. I wanted them to be able to think. We didn't have family devotions every night sitting around the table where I opened the Bible and I opened it a couple times a week and it was brief and short and application. And what I wanted more than that is I wanted all my kids at an early age to learn and meet with God on their own. And so teaching them how to meet with God, by the time a lot of my kids were 10, 11 years old, they had their own quiet time because they saw their mom and dad doing that. And so our supper table was a lot more, what are you learning? What's God showing you? What's going on? And so we'd have these discussions. What happened in school?

I mean, our supper table was evolution, worldview, cults, just what, I mean, I wanted my kids why they lived there to learn the who is God, what is true, and why. And then let's wrestle with that. And so just start to understand as a parent, this is like a full-time job.

This is like it takes a lot of focus. Let me give you some practical tips just in terms of playing this out that will get you going. Number one is have a few clear responsibilities slash rules. Don't have a lot of rules.

Have a few. And then we keep these. So if you really don't care, you know, you're not, then don't have a rule. Let them do what they want. Anytime you can say yes, it's a good answer. But when you know you need to say no, say it firmly. This is not a good answer.

Can I do this, this, this? And you, you know, it's like go with these friends that aren't good friends to watch this movie that's a bad movie over to this house where the parents aren't home. And here's how some of us have answered. Oh honey, you know, I don't know. You know what that says to a kid? There's room. I'm going to push in on this one.

Well, how come mom, you know, here's the good answer. Can I do this? No. What do you mean? No. No. What? Third time, what part of no don't you understand? We've talked about those kids. We've talked about that movie.

And I've told you, you can never go to that house when the parents aren't there. Just have a few. And if it doesn't matter, then hey, it sounds good. I mean, I always want to be fun and positive on the one side and then very firm and clear on a few things. Two, develop written contracts.

You'll have to change them every six months or so, but develop written contracts as they get older. Third, negotiate consequences. This is what I talk about. Let your kids come up with, if I don't do my homework, this happens. If I don't do my chores, this happens. If I pick on my brother or sister, this happens. If I talk back, if I have an attitude, this happens.

And just sit down with them, not when you're having a problem, but when you're both kind of like clothed and dressed and in your right mind and you're having some fun. Let's sit down together and just walk through these. And don't have like a contract that has 17 things. What are the top three or four things that are behavior issues? And just address those. Number four, be consistent. This is hard. If you're consistent, your kids will feel secure.

Number five, the older they get, the fewer the rules. You want to feed them responsibility, feed them responsibility. And dare I say, trust them. The older your kids get, you need to tell them things like, you know what, what do you think about that movie? I mean, if it's just a little bit iffy or there's a situation and you're not quite sure, often I would say, Ted, why don't you pray for 24 or 48 hours and ask God what you think you ought to do?

And let's come back and talk about it. See, what I wanted to get out of was, I mean, my lands one year from now, they're going to be on a college campus someplace or they're going to be out with some friends. If they don't start making decisions at late 16, 17, 18 in my house, so what, is a magic button going to get pushed? I wanted to throw it into their lap and say, okay, what do you think God wants you to do? Oh gosh, dad, why don't you just tell me right or wrong? Because this is your decision. Now, if it was one that I knew devastating consequences, they might pray about it and I always had veto power. But I'll tell you, there's a good handful of times where I thought, you know, son, I'm not really sure that's a very good decision and I'm pretty concerned, but it's yours.

And then here was the statement. Here's what I want you to know. I believe in you. I know that you wouldn't do anything that would embarrass God, that would hurt you or another person or dishonor the Ingram name.

So if that's what you, if you've prayed and you think that's what God wants you to do, then I just, I'll be praying for you. Be very wise. I think it's a dangerous decision. I think some bad things could happen. But, but you know, at some point in time, and you know what, when you tell them you trust them, it's like putting a chain around their neck.

Oh gosh, you know, but if it's, I'm going to check up on you and I'm going to call and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this, just the opposite will often happen. Finally, train them to be on their own. Train them to be on their own. When we were parents in the early days, we were very poor. Seminary, we often, I mean, we lived on under a thousand dollars a month with three kids, lived in government subsidized housing. And it was just, things were tight. We were pulling quarters out of the back seat and I did all kind of little odd jobs to work full time. I thought my wife should be home with our kids. And so it was a crazy time. But what my kids saw early on was they saw God provide because we didn't have any money.

Well, by the time Annie, she's 13 years younger, by the time she got to be a teenager, you know, we had some disposable income and my kids learned responsibility. Like, you know, that old, you know, I want Michael back in those days. Remember, I want Michael Jordan.

It wasn't LeBron. I want Michael Jordan tennis shoes. But I said, great. You know, I've got $45 that I can spend on tennis shoes. And if you want Michael Jordans, great.

Just save up your money and we'll go down and I'll give my $45 and you put in $55 and they're all yours, babe. And it's amazing. They saved up and did that about once. And all of a sudden they weren't that cool, you know. And, but I, with Annie, what I realized is, is that because one, she was compliant. She watched sort of her brothers and she thought, you know what, I think I'm going to be a obedient child. And she had a lot of her mom's personality, like do your homework early, get things done. Very unlike me and the boys, you know.

And so all of a sudden I realized she's like 15, 16 in the middle of high school and we'd be in the mall. Dad, can I have that? And she rarely asked for anything. And she's my daughter. But daughters are different.

Well, sure, honey. So I'd buy that for her and a little something there. And I mean she really wasn't.

She didn't spend a lot of money. And I remember one day Theresa and I were talking. I said, honey, we're blowing it. We as in me, but I mean when you really blow it, you want to get your wife involved too, you know. We're blowing it, you know. And I said, we've taught all the boys.

I mean, man, they cook, they did their laundry, responsibility. And so I said, we need to come up with a new plan. And I said, I want you to figure out every dollar we spend on Annie per month.

I mean, clothes, makeup, whatever you, all the women's stuff, and schools. And we came up with a number. And then we had a meeting with Annie. And I said, Annie, first of all, I need to apologize as your dad. I really have not done for you what I did for your brothers. And here's why. And it's because you have great character and on and on. But I've really blown it.

And you haven't learned to be responsible. So here's what we're going to do. And this much money we're going to give you the first of every month.

And I mean for everything. That's clothes, camps, everything. So I will, I'll pay 25% of ski, I mean, the ski camps and stuff when you got a teenager, right?

It's like 300, 400 bucks. It's crazy stuff. And so it was like, she's going to have to figure out from babysitting and this, toothbrush, everything she would pay for.

Lunches, eating out, everything. And it was amazing. And so I remember walking through the mall and, and she just said, Dad, well, those are, you know what, I need a new pair of jeans.

I said, well, great. I mean, if you feel like it's in your budget, just go ahead. And you know, the designer wants, Dad, can you, I mean, she never looked at this before. $95 for a pair of jeans.

Are you kidding me? You know, I can go to the outlet place and I can get them for, she didn't think like that before. And anyway, I watched her in about a year and a half learn to really handle her money, make great decisions, have her own checkbook and learn how to live her life. Final things here is by way of overview is just identify, develop a game plan, identify the top parenting or child needs in your world. Just, you know, what, what is it, right? So what do we need to address?

And you know, what are the behaviors of the patterns? Second is honestly evaluate your parenting style. Are you, you know, between being too permissive or being too authoritarian, which are you? And then the third is develop a time where you sit down with your family and have a conference and just address these things. You're listening to Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram and the message you just heard, What's a Parent to Do, is from our series, House or Home, Parenting Edition.

Chip will join us in studio to share some insights from today's talk in just a minute. Join Chip in this 10-part series as he provides practical and biblical wisdom for moms and dads at every stage of parenthood. You'll dive into Ephesians Chapter 6 and share his personal experiences as a father to help you guide your children to become God-honoring adults. Whether you are a new parent or grandparent, this series has valuable insights for you.

If you've missed any messages, visit LivingOnTheEdge.org to catch up. Well, I'm joined in studio now by Chip, and Chip, you know, every parent wants to see their kids be healthy, bright, and well-adjusted. But in our pursuit to develop them, we often overlook our role to grow our kids spiritually.

And what advice do you have for moms and dads to change that? Well, Dave, first and foremost, we have to make that a priority. Just like plants need constant nurturing, we got to recognize that it's not enough to drop kids off at church, a Sunday school class, the youth group. It will take a parent being deeply engaged, a grandparent understanding your specific role and what you can do in the lives of your grandchildren.

And what we've done here, because we know how hard that is, I mean, people's lives are so filled with activity. We've developed three free resources that will help you engage and spiritually develop the life of your child. First is our Field Kit for Parenting. It outlines seven key practices for godly parenting. This tool is going to help you as a mom or a dad understand your role, your parenting style, and then highlight some practical ways in that touchy area of biblical discipline. Next is what we call Mealtime Conversations for Families. This will encourage you to set some time as a family around the dinner table and give you some wholesome topics to spark conversation that goes first kind of fun and then deeper about the bigger issues of life. And lastly, the resource is How to Build Christian Character in Your Kids.

In it, you're going to learn how to instill the qualities in your children that help them become authentic disciples of Christ. There has never been a more important time for you to engage with your kids, and we want to help equip and support you in this very most important job as a mom, a dad, and especially as a single parent. Dave, could you let them know how to get a hold of these free resources? Be glad to, Chip. To learn more about any of these free digital parenting tools, visit SpecialOffersAtLivingOnTheEdge.org or the Chip Ingram app.

We want to see families thrive and honor God, and that starts with moms and dads parenting well. And we believe these resources can help. So download them today by visiting SpecialOffersAtLivingOnTheEdge.org or the Chip Ingram app.

Before we go, here's Chip to share his application from this message. As we close today's program, I realized that I went very quickly over the things that might have been the very most important to you. You know, when I said some practical tips for balanced parenting, and then I went, and you were going, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Well, let me go through these a little bit slower, and then let me tell you that these are online, okay? There's message notes.

You can listen to this again for free online at LivingOnTheEdge.org. So are you ready? Practical tips for balancing parenting. One, have a few clear responsibilities and rules. Don't have a ton of them.

A few clear ones. Number two, develop written contracts. As your kids get older, sit down and write down the expectations. Nagging doesn't work. Yelling doesn't work. Number three, negotiate consequences. It may sound crazy, but in the preteen and teen years, sit down and identify.

These are the things that make you crazy. You let your kid help you decide what should be the consequences. Number four, be consistent.

Fulfill that contract. Number five, the older they get, the fewer the rules. And number six, train them to be on their own. Feed them, feed them, feed them responsibility with grace and love.

Parent with love and limits. You'll be glad you did. Thanks, Chip. And if you want to go back and study those points Chip just reviewed, go to LivingOnTheEdge.org and download his message notes.

This is a great tool available for every program. It has Chip's outline, all of the scripture he references, and a few key fill-ins to help you remember what you're learning. Find them by visiting LivingOnTheEdge.org under the broadcasts tab, app listeners tap fill-in notes. Well, thanks for listening to this Edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. I'm Dave Drury and I hope you'll join us again next time.
Whisper: medium.en / 2024-04-25 04:09:06 / 2024-04-25 04:22:18 / 13

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