Racism 2019

Welcome to Man Talk, brought to you by TAWCMN, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where they are devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination, and challenging men to take their God-assigned role. Here's our hosts Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy, and a white guy. Welcome once again to Man Talk Radio, and we have two guests, Roy, in the studio with us today. You want to introduce them?

I'd be more than happy to. We've had these gentlemen with us before, Michael Troutman and Jerome Gooden, two brothers that I love very dearly in the Lord, and we're going to have a real special show today. Today we will be talking about a very sensitive subject, some may think, and it is a subject that we as men and as people in general need to have this particular conversation, because it's something that is very, very heartfelt. So we're going to be talking about the subject of racism today, and if that sort of gave you a joke while you're riding, listening in your car or at the house, it should. I agree, Will, and it's the racism and also the discrimination, and as Michael and Jerome and I have talked about and I share with you, sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's not so subtle. When I say not so subtle, it's pretty abrupt, pretty abusive, very deliberate, but the not so and the subtle times when it happens and which we'll talk about tonight are things that sometimes I think people are very conscious they're doing and maybe sometimes subconscious, but quite often they're very conscious of what they're doing and how that impacts the person on the other end. So I guess the question then would be, for those who are listening, you might say that you are not a racist, but how do you know that you're not a racist? How do you know if you are racist and if you are racist, would you admit that you are a racist?

Because racism in its general sense, I think it captivates the mind and the heart of the individual who might be saying something in a general context that they think is not racially motivated or inspired. Yeah, it could be something they're saying, but it could also be back to the subtle piece after talking with Michael one evening last week. It's maybe even be the very thing that's not said.

It could just be the very action of the person on the other end. It could be at a stoplight, which we'll hear tonight. It could be on the walkway. It could be in a shopping center.

It could be in a store. Any number of things that people go through, especially people of color go through that white people tend to do. And I'm sure again we're not just talking one side. There's other sides of that.

We all know that. White people are treated certain ways at times, which we'll talk a little bit about that tonight. But I think a lot of that goes back to a rooted structure because there's been so many years of that type of behavior, which we'll talk about tonight. Let's go ahead and let's lead into this, Will. Let's get it going because it's going to be a healthy discussion and we're going to do two shows for those who listen. This will be part one and part two. So this week you'll hear about it and we're going to go right into part two next week.

So let's just get right to it. So we'll open up with Michael. We're going to go with what I would call the subtle experiences that Michael has gone through in recent times. We're not talking about when he was a kid.

We're talking about just in recent days, recent months, recent years or two. Michael, why don't you share with us a little bit, why don't you give just a quick background about who you are, just to remind the listeners and then let's talk a little bit about these subtle things that have happened to you just as a recent. And just to be clear, Michael is a black man and Jerome's a black man. Will's a black man and I'm sitting here.

They've got the look of shock when they say, uh-oh, they didn't realize that. And I'm the white guy. So it's going to be a good conversation today. So Michael, with that, let's turn it over to you for just a moment.

All right, well, I appreciate that. Let me first go, Roy, if I may just take a liberty here to just give what I say as a definition of racism. And this is not a technical definition. This is not, you know, some academic definition. It's just my words.

Okay. And that's to have a view of a supposed superiority based on race. And then you couple that equally with an imaginary belief of power over a race just because of race.

And you know, it takes different forms. It can be in schools, housing, certainly in our criminal justice system where I work every day and in hiring practices. But you can also experience in what I was sharing with Roy and what he was alluding to and just day-to-day living to drive up to a stoplight and look over at a white person and see them lock their door, to go into a store and not have the clerk wait on you in an efficient way or in an expeditious way or have the loss prevention officer follow you throughout the store.

Those things cut deep. So let's stop right there for a second, Michael. Imagine I'm a white person, but I'm thinking I'm going through a store as a white man and I happen to be in a predominantly black area.

Let's just flip the tables here so people can put this in perspective. We think that people understand when they say, well, hey, I'm a black man. I've been followed in a store, you know, loss prevention officers following me around because I'm black and I'm in a predominantly white area. Most of the shoppers don't look like me and all of a sudden I'm being followed.

Listen folks, if you're listening, you're no matter what color you are, I want you to just imagine in this moment, you're a white man or a woman and you walked into a store and there's a black loss prevention officer following you around because you're the oddity standing in the store. How does that make you feel? How does that make you feel folks? That's the only way I could try to get you to understand what Michael's trying to share here is to put yourself in those shoes as the other person, not the person who may be following the Michael Chapman, but a person who may be following the Roy Jones or the one that's getting followed by a loss prevention officer that doesn't look like you.

It doesn't feel good. And the night you shared that and when Jones shares a little bit about his story, I try to put myself in those shoes. It just doesn't, there's no way to imagine it, but you can kind of try to put yourself in those shoes and say, hey, how would I really feel about that?

And I know how I would feel. Well, let me just say this Roy, and I'm just going to give you just a little pushback on that because in that situation, without the sort of the historical daily grind that racism can bring upon a person, bear upon a person, why wouldn't somebody think that you were there for some business? Racism has a way of sort of warping how we even look at one another. So you come in as the white guy in a predominantly black area because the images are so warped. Someone may have assigned to you a position of authority. Just because of my skin color. Just because you walked in, you're white and what is he even doing here? And it's not that you're being followed with the thought that you may perpetrate a faff, do something in the store, but there was a curiosity more so than a threat.

Well for those of you who haven't seen me, I create curiosity just by my sheer looks to begin with. But no, I understand what you're saying. Without the history, and that goes back to what I think we opened up the show with, that there's maybe a subconscious behavior that occurs, but there's a feeling that's embedded in the person because of the way they were treated, like you were treated that way your lifetime.

You've seen it, you saw your parents go through it, yourself, you've been through it. So I can't equate the same feeling or understanding. You're right, it may be that they look at me as just, hey, he's here for business.

It's odd that he's here, but he's here for business. But the point was to say, just imagine that person's following around, irrespective of the reason, but all of a sudden you are the oddity, you're the odd person out and you're the one being followed and questioned or looked at without even saying a word that they're assuming that you're there for the wrong reason. But I can't say I can understand the historical side of all those years of it happening wrong. And we know when I say subconscious, there's a consciousness that always occurs, but you may become numb to it or you're just not recognizing the fact you're still doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing, related to the way you're treating people. People are not born racism. Racism is a behavior. It's learned. It's learned. So, so they have to learn that from somewhere. And of course, they learn it from, you learn it from home, you learn it from your peers, or you learn it from society or the community in general. So I think this in and of itself, you know, it, it weighs heavy upon any individual, whether they're African American in a store or you're looking, you know, to another car or all of a sudden you walk past a lady and she grabs her purse really, really tightly, you know, we've had things happen like this to us. So it's, it's a his historical thinking that has propagated exponentially right over time. Sure. And our day and time.

Sure. Well, and then back to what Michael said about the locks on the door. I mean, I'm just, when he first shared that story with me, I was like, I, I mean, I was just really set back. I don't mind telling you, I was set back and to sit there thinking that somebody sitting in the stoplight, they look over at you, you're a professional, it doesn't matter, but you're a professional and you, I know how you dress in the house.

Every time I've seen you, even in our casual times, you're always dressed up and you're sitting there as a professional in a car and someone that doesn't look like you sees you locks the door so you can see it. And it starts looking back ahead. And I guess they're probably looking out the side of their face and that's just, that's folks.

I'm just here to tell you that's wrong. And I think what Will touched upon is, is so correct. It's, it's a weight. It puts a weight on you that you shouldn't be there.

I'm going through my day trying to just live life and to have that weight throwing on. It adds to the tension. It adds to the stress of an already stressful life. And so racism, it really cuts, it cuts deep.

Yeah. And I don't think people that have never been through it can understand it. They certainly won't feel what you felt. And, um, but we can, that's the point of this show is we want to put it on the table and we want to create an awareness and then we're going to trust God to, to, to, in my mind's eye, to sensitize your heart and your mind and your soul and your spirit to say, Hey, this is wrong. You need to do something about the way you're behaving. And that's the whole point of the show because if we don't talk about it, and this group of men sitting here tonight has heard us and we've all said this, if we as the body of Christ can't get it right, we're never going to expect the world to get it right. And as long as Satan's running, long as Satan's running around, we're going to let him deal with the world, but we've got to deal with the body and then plant the seeds in the world. But if the body's not doing it right, we're not going to get the seeds planted. And just like we say it earlier today, if on an individual basis, if things have to be worked from the inside out of an individual, then it has to be the same in the church has to be worked from the inside of the church out affecting society. So it's almost like when the scripture talk about working out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling. Well, see, if, if I am going to work something out, I got to have something in me in order for it to be worked out.

So without, without no word, how can I work anything out? That's going to be beneficial to the world. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. We appreciate you tuning in today. And we're just excited to have Jerome and Michael with us.

And we'll hear from Jerome as we come back off break and we'll hear a little bit more of the less subtle occurrences of racism and discrimination. TAWCMM would love to have you join their community of men for breakfast every first and third Friday of every month. They have Bible discussions and fellowship after the best breakfast in town. The meeting location is at their gracious Host Church First Christian Church in Kernersville 1130 North Main Street in Kernersville.

They have a hard start at seven o'clock and a hard stop at eight o'clock. First time visitors eat for free. Join your hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy. Affordable Chiropractic in High Point. As you might tell from their name, Affordable Chiropractic, even for the cash patient. Dr. Jeff Rickey has been caring for patients in High Point for 34 years. Physical therapy such as ultrasound and spinal decompression for disc conditions such as herniation, comprehensive care for auto accident injury patients with no out of pocket expense. Remember, Affordable Chiropractic on West Lexington Avenue in High Point.

Call 336-885-1987. Welcome back to the show. We're going to introduce Jerome Goode, who is our second guest and he's been sitting here so patiently.

We were just talking about how quick the time has gone in the first part of the show. We've already passed 13 minutes, but with that Jerome, we would just would like to first say thank you again for coming tonight. And Jerome just recently has had a little bit of surgery, so he's really doing well to get here with us tonight. Jerome, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for inviting me. So Jerome, I guess I'll open up and just ask you, give us, in fact, may I give a quick backdrop to our first meeting. Jerome and I met a few years back and he was honest enough a few weeks back to say, you know, Roy, when I first heard about the work you guys were trying to accomplish for the kingdom, he said I had to come meet you because I didn't really particularly want to be around white men. And he said I didn't trust white men and was very transparent and honest. And that was, we'd known each other what about two years, I guess, when you opened up and shared that with me. And folks, for a man to be able to tell you that from the heart and out of love, share that with you.

It's pretty amazing thing. So Jerome, why don't you tell us why you felt that way. And the couple major events you had shared with me earlier in your life that had happened that had really put you on guard about dealing with white men, white people in general. Well, for those that don't know that I was a Boy Scout leader for over 20, 25 years, going through the different training, I would usually be the only African American there.

Went through the commission of college, got my PhD there. Then the facilitators came to me and told me, this is as far as you can go. In other words, we can't stop you from going through the classes, but we can stop you from being a facilitator. Because they wanted to keep the good old boys network going. Went through the, I'm also a retired letter carry and when that you get faced with a kid coming up to you, when you just out doing your job, trying to deliver a meal and the kid runs, announce you as mama N word is here for their unemployment check.

Yeah. Just going through these different experience on just day to day, what a subject that was learned in school, that was embraced and enforced at home. So going through different situations, you can be put on guard for as when I was in the military, we had to do different events and had a flat tire, tried to change my flat tire.

White man, he sucked his dog on me and I was just out trying to change my tire. So it is not being at the right place or the wrong place, but this is just a behavior that race him is alive and well, even in the church is still live and well. When then we can go and visit a brother or sister at a church while you at their house, you are welcome. But if you see them outside of their house doors, they're like, they don't know you. So what, what happened to the fellowship, the brotherly love and all that while we was in the house.

But when we get out in public, then we act like we don't even know you. So those are just some of the events that I have experienced in the world and also in the church. And see folks, these, this is real life situations. And we know that some of you out there may have experience with something like this, if not, you know, worse than that, but it becomes enlightened to those who may not have experienced something to this magnitude because here we are in 2019, 2019, Roy, we're here and we're, we're experiencing things that have gone, uh, back to the time of different color water fountains and restaurants and things like that. Sure.

And even beyond, right? Yeah, I understand that. And if I remember Jerome's story correctly, I believe you were, you, and you mentioned it briefly, but you were in the military and were you when a military unit, when a truck, when that flat tire occurred, Jerome was in the military convoy.

Yep. Keeping this in mind folks here, here he's, here's serving your country. He's protecting you and a man walks out six is dog.

And what he didn't tell you was he also pulled a shotgun out and made it pretty clear if he didn't move, he was going to shoot at him or shoot him, uh, to get on up the road. And of course that's been several years ago, but it's the point that it set the tone for Jerome and, and that goes back to learn behavior, but it also is a learned defense system, a learned cautiousness that happens in our, you know, you get burnt once shame on you, you get burnt twice shame on me. So this basically starts to acclimate him towards white people. I'll just say what it is. Cause I am a white man.

I can speak to it. It starts to acclimate him and his attitude towards white people. And then even some of the things he's mentioned, uh, as a male carrier in the church have been the things of recent. So folks, this is a serious problem. I mean, it really is a serious problem. Uh, and, and the divide that is occurring in our country today is only getting worse. And we have no one to blame but ourselves.

If you were following Christ, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves because to Jerome's point and Michael's point, it's happening in the church. And I think correct me gentlemen from wrong, but wasn't it Martin Luther King that said the most segregated day of the week is Sunday. Uh, and it still is today. Is that not correct?

That's correct. So, um, Michael, what do you have to say about that? Well, I mean, another thing Dr. King said is that darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that.

And while this is an old story, this isn't new, you allude to the divisiveness or divisiveness that's going on in our country right now. What may be impossible with man is possible with God. It takes the gospel of God getting into people, creating not only new individuals, but new people. And that's what the gospel will do.

I believe Will spoke to this. You have to have the word in you. And as we get the word into people, then we can get some of this hatred and bitterness and divisiveness out of people.

Amen. We had a gentleman this morning. I meant to share with you as I was praying about this.

So father, what is it? What is it that you want us to speak about related to the segregation, racism and discrimination? And I was thinking what scripture makes the most sense and says it all the way we should be. And as soon as I asked the question, he put on my heart, Roy, love your neighbor as yourself. And folks in scripture, it doesn't say love the black man as yourself. It doesn't say love the white man as yourself. It doesn't say love the Indian or the Hispanic or, you know, the Asian, whoever you want to go through. He says, love your neighbor enough.

Will, correct me if I'm wrong. The old translation neighbor was anyone that you could see, which meant anyone as yourself. So to the point, if we love everyone as ourselves, it doesn't matter what the skin color is. And we as the body of Christ, we're not doing that then. Are we indeed followers of Christ? Well, if you don't know yourself, how can you love yourself? If you don't love yourself, you're not going to love anybody else. I mean, me and Mike, we were discussing coming over here, the melting pot, you know, we've been hearing that since we was little fellas that America was this big melting pot.

Well, I'm 60 years old and we haven't melted yet. Now what I'm looking at is more of a big tall salad because we're bringing all flavors together. According to the word, they say that it is many members, but it's only one body. So how can a body be divided against itself? It can't, but we're doing it. And we're doing it because of what Proverbs 16 says. And I believe it's verse two that says, all the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes, but God weighs the motive. He weighs the spirit. He weighs why you're saying, what's motivating you to say what you're saying. And a person, when they say things, they may not even believe that what they're saying is racist. So when they're saying it, they have no standard to measure what they're saying by. See the standard for the born again believer is the word of God. So we, we measure what we say by what the word of God says. But an individual who don't know Christ, all he has is his, his own thinking.

Okay. But we have individuals that are in church and has a religious platform that say they know God as a relationship with God, but don't know the power of God. Cause see the power of God will come in, zap out racism in the body, in his body one Sunday, if we all believe, but are we truly believers or are we hooked up in our denomination? And I believe that denominationalism has indeed divided us.

No question. So, you know, that's one of the mission of the ministry is to break down the walls of race and denomination. Denominationalism has caused us to say, if we are, if we're over here and we have communion on the first Sunday and you're over here and you're washing feet on one Sunday, then, and you're not washing feet because you're saying we don't believe in washing feet and you're not having communion on the first Sunday because we're not having communion.

Where does that lead? It's all about man. Man rules.

You've heard me say this many times. Well, the man rules man has done a great injustice to the body of Christ and it's all over conflicts. It's all over the crazy stuff that makes no sense. And it's not even biblical. Most of it, you know, I mean, we've been, we take and read between the lines rather than just reading scripture for what it is. We read between the lines and try to interpret into what we think it means versus what God tells us.

And that's the whole, whole crust of the problem. Hey, I know we're probably stepping on a lot of toes right now. People out there that are really, I've got to be a Wesleyan. I've got to be a Methodist. This is all there is. There's Baptist. Hey, listen, Hey folks, we're not, we're not here to condemn anybody for being a part of any denomination.

We're just telling you that we don't think it's, it's, it's, it's healthy if we're using that platform instead of the word of God as the platform to love on each other. Amen. So, Hey, this is part one. Part two's coming folks. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back next week with part two. Please be sure to tune in. We appreciate you being a part of the show. Hey, and just a reminder, if you're listening to the show and you've not accepted the Lord, all you gotta do is acknowledge being a sinner. Ask Jesus into your heart, turn from your place, and just find the body of Christ to start worshiping with. Amen.

Amen. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry, is building a community of men that are Christ followers with the desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk. This is the Truth Network.