What do you do? And what do you say when your son or your daughter comes to you privately and says, mom, Dad? I'm transgender or I'm really struggling with same-sex attraction. Where does the conversation begin? How do you walk the fine line?
of I love you, I accept you. and you're not going to compromise biblical principles. That's today. You don't want to miss it. Thanks for listening to this Edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
We are an international teaching and discipleship ministry that encourages and equips Christians to live like Christians.
Well, in this program, we'll pick up on our series Uninvited Guests with the second half of Chip's insightful interview with best-selling author and renowned apologist Sean McDowell. They'll continue to help God-fearing moms and dads guide their families through the confusing sexual narratives of culture. Chip and Sean also challenge parents to have heartfelt conversations with their kids that lead with compassion and are also rooted in truth.
Well, they have a lot to get to, so here again is Chip with part two of his interview, Grace and Truth. If you are walking through some passages that teach About sexuality and why it is God's plan for thriving because. We somehow forget that the whole goal of someone who has made you and loves you. This is not about restrictions. This is about...
Jesus wants you to flourish. And there's some guidelines and guardrails to allow you to flourish not out of some pressed-down obedience. But out of A concern, a care, and knowing that there's lots of off-paths that will take you down places that. You can't see now, but bring a lot of pain. If you were walking through passages that people really need to understand.
And you would say to this person, you should at least study these for yourself. Where would you take them? Almost every ethical issue, there's a core question.
So, with abortion, the question is: what is the unborn? If it's not a human being, no justification is necessary. If it is, Then when is it ever okay to take the life? Of an innocent human being? That's the question.
When it comes to issues of sexuality, the question is: is there a God who's designed us? to live and function a certain way. And has this God? made that known.
Now, as Christians, we believe it's known by natural law, looking at the world, looking at our bodies. There's just certain truths built into the world. But we also see that in Scripture. That's where Genesis starts. In the beginning, God created.
Created the heavens and the earth.
So, in illustration, I'll use my smartphone. I'll say there's a designer for the smartphone. It's not to go parachuting or to make waffles. And it's not a scuba tank. It's designed for a purpose.
And I gotta understand what that purpose is and use it accordingly.
Well, the Bible starts with telling us that God is a creator. He's the designer of the world, of our bodies, of sex. We see in Genesis 1: God made them male and female, said, populate and fill the earth.
So we are sexed beings built into our bodies. We are male and we are female. And then in Genesis 2, it says a man leaves his father and mother.
So, God's design for the home is that it's a father and mother. Marriage is a sex institution. And then of course that's the means by which they populate. and fill the earth. That creation account at the beginning is consistently pointed back towards in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
as being normative. For how we're supposed to live, so even in Leviticus chapter 18, which is not one I would turn towards primarily, but when it talks about same-sex sexual behavior being wrong, it uses the language for you know, a male shall not lie with another male, it's an abomination. The language that is used is reminiscent of the creation account that they were made male and female, and there's a design for the human body. Right, you go to the New Testament, you see the same thing. Jesus when asked about marriage in Matthew nineteen He's really asked about divorce.
What does he do? He points back to Genesis 1. and points back to Genesis 2. Saying, don't you know it is written? In the beginning, God set it up to be this way.
So Jesus is affirming the ongoing relevance. Of the original created design of marriage, one man, one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. Even in Romans chapter one, When Paul gives a very clear condemnation of idolatry, when he talks about creation reveals the Creator, but people suppress the truth, and then he gives an example in Romans 1:26 and 27. Pointing towards the creation of our bodies, and people see it and know it, but suppress it in same-sex sexual behavior. read that passage.
He's pointing back towards Towards the creation account specifically, just like Jesus did, saying this is normative. for our behavior.
So that's why it's not what we would call adiophora in Romans 14, where it's an agree to disagree issue, like the day we worship on or food. Sexuality is never Ever placed in that category. Yes. It is unequivocally and universally condemned. Which is why in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem Council, they're like, how much of the law carries over to Gentiles?
And one thing they say is avoid sexual immorality, which is pornea. Which would have included, of course, adultery and fornication and same-sex sexual behavior.
So, creation account in Genesis 1, I think in Matthew 19 with Jesus, and then Romans 1, because both Jesus and Paul point back towards that creative norm. Those are the key passages that I go to when talking with people. Great summary, Sean. I don't like this phrase, but let me now play the devil's advocate. Do it.
Because often what happens is, mom and dad, I really get where you're coming from. You're giving me all those Bible passages. What you don't understand is. I don't believe the Bible anymore.
So your argument from the Bible, it really doesn't carry any weight. And by the way, this isn't a confused 16-year-old. This is a 24-year-old who's saying. I don't want to hear anything about the Bible. I don't believe in marriage.
We happen to be living together or I have a same sex relationship or I'm viewing the world completely different. This one man, one woman, I don't think you can make a case for that. That's just old, outdated religion. Sean, what do you say to that parent thinking, okay, where do we go from here?
So if somebody goes, well, the Bible is not true. I guess you have two options here. Either you lean into the Bible being true, Or Jesus being God, or you lean into making a case for marriage. apart from the Bible. And I'm not saying there's better or worse.
I think there's a time and place for both. If I had my choice in most circumstances, I'd probably say, let's take a step back. And let me ask you a question. if there were a Creator who designed you to live a certain way. and this Creator had made himself known.
Would you listen to that creator? and be open to that. And I've had people say no. And I'm like, okay. This is at least helpful where you stand.
Most people are going to say yes because the question of sexuality is really downstream from whether or not there is a God and whether Jesus is God and whether we're going to follow His Word.
So I'm never going to shy away from what the Bible teaches about sexuality. I think we need to speak that clearly and not pretend otherwise. But I'm going to say, tell me why you don't believe in the Bible. Tell me who you think Jesus actually is.
So, I'm probably going to typically go that direction. Do you believe in God? Who do you think Jesus was? Why or why not? Rather than making a case necessarily for marriage.
Now, I do think we can make a case for marriage without using the Bible. just like we can make a case for life without using the Bible. Probably the best book on this is called What is Marriage? There's three authors, and one of them is Ryan Anderson. They just make a case from natural law.
About what marriage is. And you can kind of point to, you know, the Bible talks about one flesh, but without using this language, It's pretty obvious that male and female are both human. But have different bodily designs that come together. in a way that a man and a man and a woman and a woman. Don't.
It's a fundamentally different kind of relationship. It's the kind of relationship that is oriented towards, to use biblical language, populating And filling the earth. It is a distinctly different relationship than a father-son, than a friend, than a tennis partner, than a business partner, than a man and a man. In fact, every biological function you can perform as an individual, digestion, respiration, blood circulation, except for one. And that's reproduction.
That takes a man and a woman as if they each have half of the system. come together as one, towards making babies. This is a distinct different kind of relationship. Than any other kind of relationship that's out there. That's one point that you can make, and I think it's hard to avoid.
And then second, ask the question, why is it that governments are so interested? in regulating this relationship. but not other relationships. And the answer is because this relationship is what produces the next generation. And for governments to survive and thrive and flourish, they actually need another generation.
We have a birth dearth right now, and it's actually a massive concern for civilized countries around the world how few people are having kids. And our government right now is trying to find ways to motivate people to have more babies for the sake of civilization.
So sometimes it takes a little unpacking. Which is why this is not typically the first step that I would make. But just questions like: why is the government interested in this relationship that's distinct? Historically, not for political reasons. Do you recognize that this union and what it produces is objectively different than a man and a man, and a woman and a woman?
And historically, why has there been this sense of marriage pretty much universally? Because it seems to be built into the world. These are the kinds of questions and ways you could take that conversation if helpful. You know, these are significant issues and problems that we're living with today. It's interesting to me that some of the things that Allow that bridge of relationship and the kind of conversations that we're having right now.
Are the kind of conversations you really want to have with preteens? Amen. That are just open-ended dialogue. But it means that you actually. This is a wild suggestion.
But that as a family, at least three or four times a week, you actually eat together, that you actually turn off. Screens and phones and TV, and you're not in a car going from one sport activity to the next activity or leaving this practice to go to the other practice. I mean, Sometimes we so narrowly think of, wow, we have these issues with Trans or LGBT or rebellion with children, and we don't step back to say, well, what kind of flow and life and pace and conversation, has to be a part of a family for these kind of things to ever come up rather than the crisis moment. And uh I think part of my heart's desire behind this whole series is for moms and dads and single parents to say, When I look at the activities of our family, Are these building Warm. deep relationships Is there any margin?
Does my five-year-old really need to be on a formal soccer team? And it goes back to a lot of What are you really trying to produce in your home? And what does it take to do that? It seems that we've kinda lost.
some of the fabric of the most basic things, that allow for our kids to have time and thought. to even ask these kind of questions. And that a mom or dad that isn't proactively thinking What books are we going to read together? What shows are we going to watch together? What conversations do I want to make sure that we have?
You know, I pastored all these years, and I'm out in front of groups of people telling them this is what scripture says, and this is the kind of marriage, and this kind of family. I went home, you know, and it was this weight of Well, Chip? How are you doing living out what you're telling others? And of course, none of us can do this perfectly, but that can't be an excuse for not saying As Prof Hendrix used to say, one of my mentors: if it's not working at home, don't export it. And what he really meant was: hey, guys.
You can't live with an awareness that the things you're telling other people, you're not putting into practice.
So as you kind of put your arm around those that are listening.
Some are people that have young kids.
Some are saying, wow, I wish I would have done this. What are some characteristics of creating the kind of family relationships And, you know, let's face it, a great majority of Christian or non-Christian, they've been through a divorce, they've been through a challenge, or their parents were divorced. It's really hard if you haven't seen it. My situation was. My parents weren't Christians and my dad was an alcoholic.
And how do you learn that when you didn't see it?
Well, there's ways, but you have to be pretty intentional. Is there a game plan or something you've seen as you meet students that you think? I'm not sure exactly what their parents did, but somebody did something kind of right. Have some help for our listeners. That's such a great question.
You know, it's interesting you asked this, Chip, because my dad's story was very much like yours. And I asked him, I'm like, how did you learn how to be? Good parent and husband. He goes, Son, I just plagiarized. Meaning, I watched people who did it well and I hung out with them and spent time with them and learned how to do it by osmosis.
And I think that's just such good, humble advice. There's no formula for parenting. I mean, just like there's no formula for spiritual parenting, right? Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away. He wept over Jerusalem, because so many would not accept and believe in him.
But I think there's research in biblical precedent for being faithful. And when we're faithful, it gives us the best chance of seeing our kids also be faithful. I think it's the only way we can put it. And number one, the data shows if we want our kids to adopt our faith, We've got a model of faith. that's worth emulating for them.
If they think we're hypocrites, if they think We just don't really believe it and live it out. And if they're not drawn to the kind of, say, marriage or life that we have, it doesn't matter what we say. Christianity has lost credibility in their eyes. I'm not telling parents to be perfect. Kids don't expect their parents to be perfect.
If I had a dollar every time I apologize to my kids, I could retire.
So the first thing is to look in the mirror and say, Am I modeling this for my kids? And if you're like, yeah, I think I am. You know, a painful way to find out is to ask your kids however old they are and just be willing to listen humbly. And they might give you some difficult pie to swallow. But bottom line, model it.
Number two. Like we talked about earlier, build relationships with your kids. more important than anything when it's all said and done. Time and intimacy and closeness, and a relationship with your kids where you just cherish and enjoy them and have fun with them. Build that close relationship and not just one way where I take my kids to do what I'm doing.
You spend time with them, what they care about. Build relationships. And then, third, look for opportunities to have conversations with them. About faith issues that matter. Kind of like you know, Deuteronomy 6:4, it talks about love, Lord God, with your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Talk about these things when you wake up, when you lie down, when you walk along the way, when you sit down in the home, in other words, in the rhythm of life. you look for opportunities.
So, if we're ever watching a movie, a friend of mine, I haven't done it quite like this, but they play a game called Spot the Lie, where they just teach their kids, oh, that's a lie about marriage, that's a lie about God, that's a lie about happiness.
Now, if you do that too much, your kids won't want to watch movies with you, but you want to do it some. Yes, right?
So, I'd watch the Flash show with my kids years ago, and we'd just kind of stop and, hey, how's this being portrayed? What do you think? And we'd move on. That was more the exception, but I just taught them to. recognize certain themes that are in the film.
So having that conversation with your kids.
Now, of course, being involved in a church is key. That's a part of it. But I would profoundly caution parents from just assuming that the church is doing it. I just interviewed Abby Johnson, who's the former Planned Parenthood Director. Who left Planned Parenthood and now is a pro-life advocate because she saw an abortion performed right in front of her and it jarred her.
She had never seen it before. Wow. Her story is incredible in the movie Unplanned. And she's like, Sean, I grew up in a Christian home and the church assumed my parents were talking about these things. My parents assumed the church was.
So no one really talked to me about these issues and was just taken in by Planned Parenthood in college because it looked fun and they had cool colors and gave her a cause and. You know, she fell into it.
So, build a relationship with your kids, model what it looks like. Take your kids consistently to church, but have regular ongoing spiritual conversations with them. Last thing I would say. Is I also look for very strategic opportunities to engage my kids.
So I'll give you one with each of my kids.
So I'll start my oldest son. When he was 14, he wanted to see that movie Bohemian Rhapsody about the rock band Queen. It's a PG-13, so I didn't love some of the content in it, but it was not an R-rated movie. And so I said, buddy, here's the deal. I'll take you and a friend and I'll drop $100 on popcorn and tickets.
And I said, my only condition is when we're done, if we'll just sit down and talk. Talk about it afterwards. That's it. He goes, okay. Took him to the movie, we sat down 25, 30 minutes at the dinner table after the movie, and I just asked some questions.
Hey, what'd you enjoy about the movie? What surprised you? Who was your favorite character? What was your favorite scene? Are there anything as Christians we can affirm in this movie?
Are there any times you felt preached at? Anything we would give pause to and we just talked about it? He's the kind of kid that would respond to that. My daughter, she wanted these Birkenstock shoes, which are just like not cheap. And I said, all right, tell you what, if you read this book.
Chasing love and just make some notes, and then we go to coffee and just talk about it for an hour. I'll buy you the shoes. And she goes, Dad, there's an outlet. I could get two for the price one. I'm like, you can get three for the price of one.
I don't care if you can find a good deal. And so she read it, she read the whole book. And we just went out and I talked. What's your favorite chapter? What surprised you?
What did you learn? What do you think about this? And we just talked about it. together. My younger son, when he was eight, the word abortion popped up.
He goes, dad, what's abortion?
Well, some parents would change the subject. I'm like, Here's an opportunity. Let's lean in, and with this opportunity, here's what abortion is. Why did a woman get abortion? And in my best mind, explained to an eight-year-old.
What is meant by it?
So, the point with my daughter and my two sons is, I'm just looking for opportunities to engage my kids. My younger son, just three months ago, wanted this e-bike. It's all the RAIDs in Southern California. They're like bikes and they have batteries on them so they go faster, and it's not cheap. And I said, tell you what, if you watch these videos from the Colson Center, these five-minute videos, or like Prager U videos, each one I'll give you like $10 towards your bike, but you got to watch it and take notes and you got to talk to me about it.
And he did a few dozen of them. And some of these were on issues of sexuality. He did two or three on LGBTQ issues, and he wanted the bike. Gave me a chance to talk to them about it and teach them.
So, in summary, let me just say: model for your kids, build relationships with them, get them involved in a good church consistently as you can, have regular conversations with them, and just look for opportunities consistently. to engage them on these issues. I've heard you more and more and more say, ask questions, ask questions. Amen. That's different than go read this, go to Sunday school class.
This is what it says. This is what we believe. And I'm afraid you won't. And so I put pressure on you. Ask questions.
And then I would just say, for those who may be thinking, Are you saying bribe your kids to get good information and interaction with them? Are you really saying that? And I want to answer that question. Yes. Yep.
Okay. Yep.
I mean, everything you just described. I did with my kids. I love it. And it was around their interest. That's right.
And it was like a commercial happens, and I just push pause and say, What do you think they're selling? If they're sound like toothpaste, then How are they trying to get us to buy it? Do you think that if you use that toothpaste that the greatest looking guy or the greatest looking girl in high school is going to jump in your red convertible? No, dad.
Well, then why do they do that? And they start looking at things with a skeptical what's behind it, what's the presupposition, is what you're really trying to teach them. And I found even the things that are really black and white, they pick up on quickly. it was some other movies or shows where It was very subtle. And you realize that we've been sitting here and we're rooting for this guy, and I feel like I'm rooting for this guy.
But so far he's lied. He's committed adultery. He's abandoned his own wife. But they've created this narrative. that it's just hard not to root for him.
What you're really helping them to do is learn to think. and a process. Sean, thank you so much for what you're doing. I really appreciate you walking our listeners through.
Some really challenging things. Thanks for what you do and for a wonderful conversation. Enjoyed every minute of it.
Well, we'll do it again as God allows. Keep pressing ahead, my friend. This is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. And you've been listening to the remainder of Chip's Insightful Conversation with best-selling author and Christian apologist Sean McDowell. To catch up on part one of this interview or to check out any of the resources Sean or Chip mentioned, visit livingonthege.org.
That's Living on the Edge. org.
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Well, for Chip and the entire team here, this is Dave Druy thanking you for listening to this Edition of Living on the Edge, and I hope you'll join us again next time.
