The truth of the matter is that the Bible and culture. are frequently in conflict. Whether it's about sex or relationships or gender, I mean, there is so much confusion in our day. and parenting a young team or a not-so-young team It gets very complex. and very confusing.
So today I've invited a great friend who has insight into these areas to help all of us. That's today. Welcome to this Edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. We are an international teaching and discipleship ministry. dedicated to helping Christians worldwide live out their faith for the glory of God and the good of all.
Well, in just a minute, we'll continue our series Uninvited Guests. Today Chip sits down with author and apologist Sean McDowell. as they help Christian families navigate the chaos of today's culture. Together, they'll empower parents with a game plan to discuss sexuality and gender issues with their kids when those conversations arise.
Well, with all that said, here's Chip to get us started.
Well, I'm really excited about today's program. We've done literally five weeks on this series we've called. Uninvited guests, recognizing and resisting the attacks on your family. And as the family goes, the world goes, society goes, and people who love Jesus with all their heart are finding themselves in some really challenging times.
So, we've talked about. The lies that we all believe in our marriages. And if we don't recognize what they are and address them, things don't go in a good way. And we've talked about. All the issues around being parents.
And I think when we get down to some of the things that our kids are experiencing, I realize there's people that God has placed in my life and in the body of Christ that have a lot more to say than I do. And they work very closely with the next generation. And as I think of parents and grandparents and fellow pastors that listen to the program, Our goal is to serve you. Our goal is to really help you. And some of the things that your kids are facing, transgender issues, mom and dad, hey, I think I'm gay.
Or as a young woman came to me after one of the services, if you're asking me to choose what the Bible says versus giving up my friends, because They're homosexual. And of course I was telling her not give up your friends, but taking a stand about what's true and loving your friends. She just looked at me and said, Well, I'm just giving up my faith. And so my guest today is Sean McDowell. He's a professor at Biola.
author of many books. And you're with young adults all the time. You travel, you speak, you are much more in tune with the culture that I am. I just know there's a lot of people that are hurting and need help, and that's our goal today.
Well, honored to be on. Thanks for having me back.
Well, it's good to have you with us. And let me just jump in because what we're going to talk about is not. Parents that don't go to church regularly, or families that are in crisis, there may be that. But people that have come into my world recently that are more committed to Christ, their marriage, raising their kids God's way. Who have had these kinds of situations.
So, Sean, what do you say to that parent? When their kid says completely out of the blue, Mom, Dad, I just want you to know I'm gay. or I'm trans now. I really believe that I am a man trapped in a girl's body or vice versa. That's such a great question.
You know, it's interesting you asked this, Chip, because probably about two or three years ago, I interviewed. a lady by the name of Arielle Scarcella, and she describes herself as the O G lesbian YouTube content creator. I just wanted to hear her story and see if we could find some common ground.
So I said, you know, if you have any questions for uh theology professor who's an evangelical I'll give you the opportunity at the end. I had no idea what she was going to ask me. Her one question was Myself and many in my community would want to know, How would you respond? if one of your kids came out as gay. Hmm.
And I had been thinking about this and actually made a social media post on it like a week or two before. And I said my response would be I'd say to my son or daughter, Thanks for telling your dad. I can't imagine how long you've been thinking about this and wrestling with this, and probably have some fear about how your dad would respond given who I am and positions that I hold. I want you to know that I love you no matter what. This doesn't change: that I'm your dad, you're my son, my daughter.
I love you and we're in this together for the long haul. Interestingly enough, she said something to the effect of, she goes, Wow, that was beautiful. When this is out, I'm gonna share it with my community. And she shared the link. Wow.
Now, one thing I would say to parents. If you haven't responded that way and you're like, you know what, I wish I had heard that a while ago. Give yourself some grace. We absolutely need biblical fidelity and we need truth. I would never question that.
But on this issue, Give yourself some grace.
So, if your kid comes to you and says, I'm. Bi, I'm gay, I'm trans, I'm fill in the blank. Your first thought cannot be: what did I do wrong? How did I fail him? Give yourself some grace.
I think there's a lot of reasons why we can. Blame ourselves?
Some could be bad theology sometimes in the church that says, if I just do A, B, and C as a parent, I'm going to get this product of a kid who will follow the Lord. And that's just bad theology. It doesn't work that way. People have free will. It could be some of our own sinfulness and our pride of our kids being a certain way because they represent us.
I mean, there can be a lot of things going on. But bottom line is give yourself some grace. Don't blame yourself. Just love on your kid and take a long-term perspective and assure him early on that you're going to stand by him and love him as Jesus did. That's kind of step number one.
As I think back of my more current experiences, And the very thing you described was, what did I do wrong? My son came back from college, or my daughter came back from school. said they're they're trans or they're gay and I'm devastated. What happened? You know, I've walked with God.
We had family devotions. And they start going through all the different things as a family as though if they would have done it perfectly, then our kids are going to turn out like these wonderful following Jesus. They'll never have a problem. compassion has to be number one. It's not like you're 21-year-old or 16-year-old or 24-year-old.
has all of life figured out and now they know this is exactly who they are. They're in a world of real confusion. And yet it doesn't change the reality of There is truth and God's plan for their life. How do you move from the first step of compassion, not blaming yourself? Or focusing inward to where do we go from here?
I think the next step is just to ask a lot of questions and to listen. You know, to highlight what you said before, if a kid comes out to you at twelve, That's very different than one at 18 or 24 for so many different reasons. Yes. Our authority, they're still living in the home. There's just different dynamics at play there.
But I would just ask a lot of questions and make sure it's the right environment.
Sometimes kids have been thinking about this for weeks or months or years. Yes. Sometimes parents suspect it and see it coming.
Sometimes it's just dropped out of the blue.
So it's fair to just say You know what? You've probably been thinking about this for a while. This is new. And I think And it might take your mom and I a little bit to process and figure out how to navigate this and what that looks like. I don't know what it all means, but I know I love you.
I know I'm committed to you. I know I want to do the right thing, be the best parent to you that I can. That's completely reasonable to share. And say, but before I say anything, tell me when did you first feel this way? Have you told anybody else?
How did they respond? How did you think we were going to respond as your parents? In your mind, just so we understand, what do you think it looks like for us to love you. Does this affect the way you think about Jesus and following after him? And at the end, your last question can be: I'm out of questions.
Is there anything I should have asked you? Is there anything else you want to tell me? And just affirm that we have an open door here, and I'd love it if we stay on the same page moving forward. I mean, I could think of 100 questions. But I'm just gonna listen and listen and try to understand where this young person is.
Because this young person might be saying. I'm gay. And if you don't affirm me, you're out. That's a very different conversation than I have same-sex attraction. I don't know how to do this.
And I want to follow Jesus and follow what the Bible says. Like, that's just a very different dynamic. And so I want to figure out where the kid is. You know, in the Bible, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked in the Gospels and Acts. And in Paul's letters, there's 262.
Wow.
There's something powerful about questions. I had one set of parents do something. I don't know if they got it from a counselor, but it was very, very effective because there was a lot of resistance and there was a lot of, are you going to try and talk me out of this? And the parents said, can we have Scheduled each week. an hour of safe space.
Wow.
It's just a safe space. I get to ask you anything. You can ask me anything. I'm not going to try to convince you, but I really want to understand. It's just a safe time.
And it was like. What's the logic behind this? And if this is true, what does this have to do with Jesus and your faith? And it was really interesting that that built a level of understanding. That doesn't mean everything is great, but it really did allow a sense of being honored.
I care, I respect you. But Sean, what do you say to that parent? I have done that. That's the journey that we're on. And I have a fairly hostile, maybe even a bit militant, son or daughter that basically says, look.
I'm gay. I'm trans, this is who I am. If you don't accept me, you don't love me, you're wrong, and you're out of my life. And now you see parents at a real crossroads where Either they don't know what to do, Or they assume all the blame and I've seen a lot of parents change their theology based on the response of their children. Or they've returned kind of anger for anger, and you just have this.
great divide. How do you maintain that biblical fidelity? I'd like to say it's only a few. Sure. There are thousands and thousands of people in the midst of this right now.
So I appreciate that you said maintain your theology. I have been to affirming conferences. I've read almost all of the books. And behind almost all the stories, there's almost always a relationship that is there. My son came out as gay.
My sister came out as a lesbian, my spouse, my fill in the blank. And part of me on a human level, like I get it. These are people we love and we care for and we've sacrificed for. And I know so many moms and dads who are like, I just want to be in a relationship with my kid. It pains me.
But Jesus is really clear in John 14: if you love me, you'll obey my commands. From Genesis to the end. The Bible is very clear that God's design for sex and marriage is one man and one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. And so it might not feel like it in the moment. But holding firm to what the Bible teaches.
is the loving thing to do. Absolutely, it's a loving thing to do.
Now, how you navigate the relationships and what it means to share that knot, that's where wisdom comes in. But my first thing to say to parents is time out. If you're tempted to compromise your theology, that is not biblical, that is not loving. That is really not helpful when it's all said and done. One value of now doing ministry for 40 years is I've watched multiple times where people, quote, cave in, change their theology.
It's okay. Yeah. And in the short term, it provides relief. Mm. In the long term, it provides pain and regret.
and devastation and hurt. And what parents don't seem to be able to get is there are times where our loyalty is challenged. And as our loyalty to Jesus Higher than our loyalty to a son a daughter, or a mate even? I've sat with people who you know my brother came out my brothers and sisters my parents now have changed their theology i'm the outlier now I'm the bad person in the family who's held to a biblical ethic. I've been kind to my brother.
I've reached out to my brother. But this is my world. There is a price to pay. for loyalty to Jesus. It's interesting.
I just providentially had a conversation yesterday with a a father who's Daughter came out as gay many years ago, got married, adopted kids. Her mate became an alcoholic. That relationship didn't work out. But every time there's been a crisis, It's so interesting. She comes to the one person that has kept their convictions and loved her regardless, but was unwilling to.
Bend his theology or change his thinking.
So he's been sort of the bad person in some early years, and now he's that one person you can trust. You know, when we hurt really badly, We're looking for someone that we can really trust. who doesn't kind of blow with the wind in terms of their view of things. Any words of wisdom for That person who's taking a stand and really struggling with maintaining it. Oh gosh, first off I would just say I get it.
I understand because of what's at stake. I would find solace in other believers who are doing the same thing.
Sometimes we feel like when we're doing stuff alone, it's just so painful. But one of my encouragements to really to anybody. Who is experiencing same-sex attraction doesn't know how to navigate this is to point towards people who are. Faithfully following Jesus. whether as singles, Or as married to somebody of the opposite sex.
People like Christopher Yuan. Sam Aubrey, Rachel Gilson. I mean, I could go on and on with people who've been open about same-sex attraction, saying, I didn't choose this, I don't exactly know why. part of my experience of life. But I'm going to stay faithful and still follow Jesus.
Those are examples I want to point to who doesn't know that they can do this faithfully.
Now if I may to your question before, The parent who's struggling with a kid who just says, if you don't affirm, you know, you're out. And I've had these conversations. I think my principle is: I want to be in my life, and I'm not saying I always do this chip. This is my principle I strive for. I want to be as gracious as I can be.
without violating Scripture. or my conscience before the Lord.
So this parent just has to ask. What hills am I dying on, and why? Am I being as gracious as I can be towards my child?
So, as painful as it is, I can put my head on my pillow at night and just say, God, I trust you. I'm acting in a way that I think is loving. But I'm sticking with what your word says is true. And sometimes I've seen parents die on the wrong hills. Yes.
We won't even meet my son and his boyfriend for dinner because I don't want to affirm that. I'm like, you know, for me, I don't think having dinner with somebody means you're affirming that. I wouldn't interpret it that way. Staying overnight in the same room in your home, now we're getting a lot closer to hills that I would die on, and you've got to figure out what they are. Right.
Really, what happens in a lot of these circumstances is it just causes a lot of soul searching. And it's painful for parents. and sometimes it can serve us our own insecurities and our weaknesses. And I just encourage parents to go before the Lord and say, help me be as gracious as I can be, die on the right hills, and just love my child through this.
Well, every situation certainly has its own dynamic. And the reality is you need to have a conviction from God's Word and the Holy Spirit that you're standing on, not what so-and-so thinks. Because at the end of the day, we all have this moment where we stand before God on. What did we do with all the things that came in our life? And we need to make those on the basis of what our convictions are before the Lord.
Shifting a little bit, let's say a kid goes to. A really good Bible teaching church. And they've heard this is what's true, marriage is one man, one woman. But they personally start questioning some things and they start going down a path. It seems to me...
that those kind of kids with those kind of struggles have a very difficult time unless the church And parents and youth leaders have a sensitivity to Creating some safe environments where they can have conversations that honestly can be of great help. But if it's not safe, They can get pretty hardened in their views thinking, well, I know I'm going to be rejected. And so what do you say to maybe churches or youth pastors or even parents? about a culture where Instead of this one event that a bomb's ready to explode inside of a kid's heart, You create a world where The beginning doubts could be addressed and open conversations could be had. I think there's some overlap, but it can also look different in a church than it can in the home.
I've done pretty extensive research on the studies of why kids leave the faith or the church that they're raised in. And there's a study, it's about a decade old now. Oxford University Press book. Faith and Families by a USC professor Vern Bengston. It was with 3,500 people, 35 years, four generations.
And they said the number one factor on kid adopting the faith of his family and his parents, regardless of what that faith is, is a quote. warm relationship with the Father. And when you hear like warm relationship in a scholarly book, I was like, what do you mean warm relationship? It means a sense of intimacy and closeness. That starts on day one.
And so, long before this kid is wrestling with issues of sexuality or their beliefs about it. Am I spending time with my kids? Am I listening to them? Am I building a closeness with them? That's number one.
And then just creating a culture in your home where you can talk about stuff. One of the brilliant things my dad did, Chip, is he had practiced how he would respond if myself or my three sisters said, Dad, I'm gay, dad, I'm pregnant, dad, I'm dropping out of school, whatever it is. And he had just practiced. Practiced his response ahead of time. And built relationships with us.
Anticipated if something like that happened, he could respond with grace. And I thought, what great foresight. You know, the other thing in the home is if you want your kids to talk to you about this. You've got to develop kind of a talking, conversing relationship where you just talk with them about things that are important to them, talk to them about life, just talk and talk, including spiritual things. It's not a one-way conversation where I just lecture my kids.
They're not going to open up to you.
So build that relationship. Start early. Converse over the dinner table about spiritual things, but just life, movies, sports, drama, whatever the kids are into. I had a young man. This is a few years ago now.
Come out to me. And I said, Why am I the first person that you came out to? Why haven't you told your parents? And he said, I just heard some statements they made now and then that I think are homophobic, just comments. About the news, about people, about individuals, and he remembers those.
So we gotta watch the way we speak. You know, I've got three kids, so I'll generalize this, but Over the years, I've heard my kids say terms they've picked up on the playground. About some, and I go, you know, we just don't speak about people that way. They're made in God's image. Let's not use that language.
God loves them just like He loves. You and me. And I want to instill in my kids that if they ever are wrestling with that question, they feel like, oh, dad's got my back.
So, those are a few things in the home I think you can do. I'm somewhat torn, like I'm in a classroom and I want to save place, but I don't. I tell my students, come to office hours, tell me what you think. I'll listen to you. If I disagree, I might push back, but I want to understand and have a conversation.
I'm no interested in having an argument. Please come talk with me if you differ. Like, I say that over and over again. But I don't want so much a safe space where I can't challenge them and make them think and make them a little uncomfortable because that's when you learn.
So there's a balance there where you want some tension to learn, but you want people to know I love you and I care about you no matter what you believe when it's all said and done. In the church? Churches have to have a doctrinal statement. Yes. They need to have a statement, not just on this issue, but this is one of the big issues of the day.
I was reading a chip about someone who went to a church for a while. and didn't even know what the church believed about LGBTQ issues until like two or three years into it. And felt like she was kind of betrayed because they presented a certain way and didn't believe that. And I thought, you know what? We gotta have a statement.
The staff needs to know, like, what's our bathroom policy? What's our pronoun policy? What's our policy of going to same-sex weddings? Like, you just have to think these things through as a staff. And be on the same page about it.
And the staff's gonna need some training. A lot of people don't have time to work through content, learn what the Bible says, and why. Most people growing up in the church know what the church believes and the Bible says, but they don't know why. Yes. They don't actually have convictions about it that run deep.
So, church's doctrinal statements they need to teach on this. But why God's design for marriage is good for the world, good for society. Good. for kids. That why is something churches have to do.
This is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to the first half of Chip's insightful conversation with best-selling author and Christian apologist Sean McDowell. To learn more about any of the resources you heard about today, visit livingonthege.org. That's livingontheedge.org.
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Well, coming up on the next edition of Living on the Edge, we'll continue our series Uninvited Guests with the remainder of Chip's interview with Sean McDowell. But until then, I'm Dave Drewy. Thanks for listening.
