Kingdom Updates on the News, Answers to Your Questions, and Who Would Jesus Vote For?

Are you ready to be a son or daughter of Issachar? What does it mean? It means understanding the times and knowing what God's people should do. Uh It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, here we are, live as always coming your way. Delighted to spend this time together. This is Michael Brown. I am, by God's grace, your voice of moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Delighted to be here with you today.

Remember to call 866-348-7884. 86634. truth. Friends I have often preached from 1 Chronicles. First Chronicles The 12th chapter.

Where it mentions, beginning in verse 23, the mighty men who came together around. King David to turn the kingdom to him in Hebron. And it begins to list them tribe by tribe. And in each tribe, it mentions how many thousands or tens of thousands there were. And in most cases it mentions the weapons that they used.

or their special skill in battle training. And uh says other things about them of importance. But then you get to verse 32. You get to verse thirty two and It speaks of the sons of Issachar. It mentions 200.

tribal leaders.

So it's the lowest number. It doesn't mention weaponry. It doesn't mention special battle skills. It simply says They understood the times. and knew what Israel should do.

In other words, they had that sense, this is the time to go to war. This is the time to go in this direction this is the time to go in that direction And I've argued that in many ways they were the most important single tribe. Obviously, you needed the whole army. But you need to know when it is time to stand and act. And In point of fact, It is critically important that the leaders in the body today, not necessarily every pastor of every church.

But leaders that God has raised up. Citywide leaders, denominational leaders, national leaders, whoever God has raised leaders up that have a voice that are respected. that can rally others around. It's critically important that we understand the times and know what we as God's people are supposed to do. For example, In the 1960s, it was the counterculture revolution.

And behind the sex, drugs, rock and roll, Eastern religion, behind all the rebellion. There was a deep spiritual search taking place. I remember in those days getting high with my friends and we'd all talk about spiritual things. And then, when I got saved, we were all talking about spiritual things. And about 40 people from my school that first year, including one of the teachers, came to a church service with me.

It was just in the air in that sense. The tragic thing is that much of the church didn't recognize what was happening. Much of the church just saw the rebellion, saw the sin, saw what was happening worldwide, prophetic signs in Israel, and thought, that's it. We're out of here any moment. It's all over.

And they missed what was happening spiritually. the great majority of the churches, in my view, Missed what was happening. They didn't see what was happening behind the scenes. They didn't recognize what God was doing. And therefore, they didn't understand what they should be doing.

And in the midst of the sin and the rebellion, it was time for outreach to young people. and to have new wine skins for the new wine. and spiritual fathers ready to mentor and disciple. Unfortunately, that did not happen on a large scale. And much of the harvest that could have been reaped was not reaped.

Jesus wept over Jerusalem. He said, Because you do not know the times of your visitation. What? Time. Is it?

Let's look around in the society and see if we can get a prophetic sense. We'll be right back. Change the world. Hey, this is Michael Brown. I want to invite you to join me for our second ever trip to Israel, February 25th through March 6th, 2017.

This is a great opportunity I get to interact with you, our radio listening audience, and our ministry partners as we experience the land of Israel together and it will be a life-changer. We've got a great price on the trip. And if you're one of our monthly supporters or torch bearers, you're eligible to receive a special discount for this once-in-a-lifetime experience. Space is limited, and we're accepting applications on a first-come, first-served basis. For more information on the trip to secure your spot, go to askdrbrown.org, click on the Israel banner, or call our office at 704-782-3760.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back friends to The line of fire, Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. 866-3487. 884 is the number to call if you want to weigh in. I want to talk about some things happening in the society and give a perspective. Give some spiritual insight on it.

Then, later in the broadcast, I'm going to answer some e-questions, just break things up a little bit. What time is it? What's happening in society around us? Nine years ago, I wrote. That no, no, hang on, hang on, not nine years ago.

Let's get this straight. In the year. 2000. In the year 2000, I wrote that another revolution was coming to America. that it was either going to be heaven sent or hell bent.

How would we respond? Would we be the ones leading the way, or would we be the ones reacting to the godlessness around us? And I really believe that You could point back probably seven, eight, nine years. We're A different kind of revolution really began to unfold in America. The rise of the aggressive new atheism.

the great increase in LGBT activism. A number of things happening at the same time that were one way or another direct attacks on the scripture, direct attacks on our beliefs. Direct attacks on the authority of the scriptures, direct attacks on conservative moral values, direct attacks on the existence of God. Though please understand, God's not threatened by this. God's not threatened.

The word of God will stand forever. Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. I'm not stressed over this, but I am grieved over things because once again, it was the world leading the way and the church coming along little by little and responding and waking up. We're. At a moment now.

And it's been building. It's been building the last couple of years. I said last year would be the year of pushback. And we're seeing that increase in saying that about last year, to me, that was only the beginning. That was only the beginning of pushing back, and there would be a great increase in pushing back in the coming years.

We are watching different groups in our society overplay their hand. We're watching different ones go too far in what they believe is right and the causes they're fighting for. And by going too far, By going too far, we get to the point where people finally start to wake up. It's almost like somebody's trying to pick a fight with someone who doesn't want to fight. But the person's actually very strong and a good fighter, they just don't like to fight.

And they finally get provoked enough and they turn around and knock the bully out with one punch.

Now, I am not talking about physical violence here. I'm not talking about the church fighting back in a physical way. I was using that as an analogy to say that at a certain point, the bullying backfires. At a certain point, people go too far with their agenda. and and others begin to wake up.

I have felt for many years that Americans want to be tolerant and accepting. That as Americans, we don't want to repeat the errors of segregation and slavery. We don't want to. Recreate and repeat the errors of oppressing one group of people or making a group of people subhuman or not equal. And because of that, we want to be a tolerant people.

Also, the majority of Americans do not hold to biblically based conservative moral values and will therefore be more prone to be accepting of things that that God's word would not sanction.

So I would expect a continual leaning in that direction in the society, and then the secular media. As polls have indicated over the years, the secular media is very, very heavily slanted towards a worldly mentality.

So, for example, a pro-abortion mentality or pro-gay activism mentality.

So, you know, the world is often going in that direction through the bombardment of the media, and the media reflects the culture, but also. influences the culture.

So It's one of those moments, though. where the push goes too far. Americans who want to be tolerant, Americans who want to be accepting. Americans who believe in equal rights for everyone.

Well, now that means redefining marriage entirely.

Well. But they're I mean, my cousin's a gay guy and he's a really nice guy and he and his partner are the sweetest couple you could meet. And I I guess I mean it's a strange idea of pronounce you husband and husband, but I guess if that's married well, okay, I want to say no to that. Americans will even go that far. And it's hard to say where we stand exactly.

Is it the majority that agree with this or not? And again, there's so much skewing of things through the overwhelming emphasis in media and social media often going in one direction. Then it goes further though.

Now it's well, you all have to celebrate that and participate in it. And if not, You could lose your job if you're a baker or florist or photographer. Or, if you speak against this or criticize it, you could be fired from your job, even if this is just in your private time. Or in your sermons preached in a church, if you're bivocation, you work a secular job, you preach sermons, and in your sermons you speak against this, you could be fired. A lot of Americans are saying w we don't agree with that.

We know that's going too far. Because, why? That's now an assault on our liberties in the name of equality. And because one of our most fundamental freedoms is is freedom itself. Excuse me, one of our most fundamental values is freedom.

One of the things most important to us as Americans is freedom, Declaration of Independence, Liberty Bell. It could be liberty or it could be death. That this assault on freedom of religion, speech, and conscience goes too far. And those who were the bullies and built a movement based on: hey, we're the victims.

Now they become the victimizers. It's harder for them to pull the victim card at this time. And that disturbs some Americans. But still so many are slumbering. Because, well, it didn't really affect me or my family or my paycheck or my kids in school.

But when it goes further, When it starts to affect your kids at school, It starts to affect private places like bathrooms and locker rooms. When the administration It's guilty of complete overreach on every level and basically issues an edict to the schools, calls it guidance, but says if you don't comply, you could lose billions of dollars in federal funding. When they threaten the state of North Carolina, unless you allow boys to share girls' locker rooms in gym, That you're going to lose $4.5 billion in federal funding for universities, and on and on it goes. That's when more and more people start to rise up. We are in one of those moments, friends.

We are in one of those moments where we either wake up to the larger cultural issues. Or we lose a whole generation. If we don't wake up at this point, and look, maybe you've heard other people talking about this and think I'm a Johnny come lately. Read what I've written for the last 15 years, please. Go back to broadcast from years and years back.

articles from years back, books from years back. I've been saying these things for years. I've been talking about these very moments that we're in now for years. This is one of those times where we must get spiritually alert. This is one of those times where we must get on our faces and pray and seek the Lord for revival beginning in the church.

This is one of those times where we need to search our own hearts and turn away from what's sinful and wrong and compromised and embrace the Lord. Look, you get used to your surroundings. You get used to the condition that you find yourself in. the measuring rod that we use on ourselves is adjustable. And if if all of all you have known is a Compromised, shallow spirituality, and that's what you're surrounded with.

You might think you're on fire. But then when you look at the Word honestly, then when you're around people who really are on fire, then when you come in real contact with the Holy Spirit, you're deeply convicted, realize, man, I'm backslidden. I'm back sliding. I thought I was following the Lord, but my heart's cold. I've left my first love.

Someone said I never really had a first love. And because of that, It's urgent that we seek God for awakening now.

Well, my church is doing great, we're growing, you know, services are packed. Hey, that's awesome. And there are places around America where God's moving, but for the most part, it's nothing that resembles revival. For the most part, it's nothing accompanied with the urgency that the hour demands.

Now is the time to be seeking God earnestly, and to be crying out, and to be praying, and to be seeking the face of God.

Now is the time to be standing for righteousness in the society.

Now is the time to refuse to back down. as governors across America are saying no to the Obama administration, as educators are making their views known, as parents are making their views known, it is critically important that we have this line drawn in the sand. We don't want to have to move it again. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Lisa said Monday she heard a man in the women's dressing room and told a manager who went to check it out. And came right back out and called me to the side and told me that he was. representing himself as a woman today. Lisa said she complained, stayed in the store and called corporate long enough to see the man walk out. And he was in no way dressed as a woman.

He had on jeans, a t shirt, five o'clock Jado. Merry date, boys. Same as a man. Ross didn't comment specifically on the incident, but told me they don't discriminate against the transgender community. Policies at other big chain retailers vary according to customer service.

Target, TJ Maxx, and Marshalls allow customers to decide based on gender identity. Kohl's forces customers to use facilities based on their biological gender. And Walmart had no specific policy at all.

So what about me? Or my feelings are making me feel uncomfortable. Lisa doesn't think any of the policies work for her, especially if they can be easily exploited. It was, you know, more like He was doing it because he could.

So that's kind of how I took it. It's it's listen. It is absolutely unreal. Yeah, Matt, I noticed that same word: coals, forces. Forces.

Forces customers to use facilities aligned with their biological gender. How utterly cruel. Look, friends. You're going to see this madness increase. You are You're going to see this kind of madness increase.

And as sad as it is, and as pathetic as it is, And as much as my heart goes out. to those who struggle with gender identity issues. It it takes madness like this in the culture. before people finally start to wake up and understand what's going on. Here's a perspective.

from someone who identifies as transgender. Joey grabbed the second clip. And I want you to listen carefully. And see what you hear. In this voice.

Go ahead. Every day someone tries to hurt us or kill us and like it's such a simple thing, okay? Like I've lived my life as a woman for years. I cannot have the same thing that a man does. If you knew anything about the transgender community, you would know that we are so disturbed by our personal parts that we would never even think about looking at them.

All right. I don't understand. I don't understand why. These people for whom Jesus died. People created in God's image yet fallen like the rest of us.

I don't understand why. They don't get it. that if we say However, you identify that's the bathroom you can use. That heterosexual predators that heterosexual perverts will use this opportunity. to go into these rooms.

We're hearing about case after case now. I'm seeing this reported just about on a daily basis. Or somebody just deciding: hey, whatever. That's what they say. That's what I'm going to do.

Like this case you just heard of. Where a guy is in there, it's well self-identified. I mean, he's completely. Dressed as a man, looks like a man, not even trying to look like a woman, identify as a woman. Remember I got a call from from a woman who works in a a women's shelter in Boston.

And she talked about how they are required by housing and urban development, by HUD law. They are required. If a man comes in and says, I identify as a woman, they're required to give him. A b a a bed? And to give him access to the showers and bathrooms with the other ladies.

The other ladies are very disturbed. This is reality. This is actually happening. The other ladies are really disturbed, but they go to management. Management said there's nothing we can do about it.

So the struggles of the one are imposed on the 99 plus that are not struggling. And not only so, it opens the door for heterosexual predators and. Perverts. Heterosexual predators and perverts.

So, this last clip, this is. Excuse me. This is someone who identifies as transgender. uh talking to those at a Uh uh middle school protest Where the students were not going to school that day, and the students were saying, Hey, we. What about us?

What about us? And uh Yeah, tell you what, let's play clip number four, and then I want to go back to this quote and get some spiritual insight. All right, clip number four as the protesters are talking here. I feel like they were more using it to like their benefit of just being kind of like kind of being perverts more rather than actually using it because they weren't comfortable to go into their bathroom of birth. They came home and one of our girls was crying and just felt that she didn't feel safe going into the girls' bathroom or locker room.

Okay, what about what about these kids? This is the time when everyone needs to stand up.

Now, when you heard that transgender individual speaking, If if you're like me, your heart went out to that person. And you said that person sounds like they're hurting.

Well, yeah, they're hurting because everyone's hating on them. That's more than that. They're hurting because they're not at home in their bodies. And they have struggled. And the solution is not to put a wig on a guy and give him hormones.

That's not the best solution. The solution the best solution is not to give the kid hormone blockers at the age of nine. The best solution is not invasive surgery, mutilating surgery, reconstructive surgery, whatever you want to call it. The solution is to find a way to help people from the inside out. But if we're not allowed to say that they have any kind of disorder, if we're not allowed to say they have any kind of handicap, Transgender activists pushed hard to get disorder removed, GID, gender identity disorder, get the word disorder removed and just change to gender dysphoria.

So the problem is not that they're not at home in their bodies, the problem is that they're not at home with not being at home. in their bodies. Uh My heart goes out to these individuals. But the other problem is when he says We struggle so much with our body parts, we're not there to look at others.

Well, first, what about the heterosexuals that use these laws? It's number one. And number two. What about the fact that, say, Bruce Jenner is still attracted to women? Wouldn't that mean?

If he Uh is is in the Ladies' dressing room or ladies' locker room that he would be attracted to those women. Wouldn't wouldn't that be common sense? And if a man is uncomfortable, it feels like he's a woman in a man's body, uncomfortable with that male blood. Body, does it mean he's uncomfortable with a female body? No.

So this is just one of those moments. Oh, look, there's a ton of things happening. Shaking, real shaking. You know, we've talked about the Republican Party potentially breaking up. We've we've talked about Oh uh Uh we we've talked about um All kinds of situations with We saw Donald Trump and the Republican Party, will there be a third party?

But you look over at the Democrats. They might have a complete shaking down. I mean, there is real chance that the Bernie Sanders people will will revolt. And who knows what's going to happen on the Democrat side? There's a ton.

of shaking going on. But it's one of these moments. It's one of these moments in the society. When believers can rise up and say, we have a better way. We have a way of life.

We have a way of truth. We have a way that can bring about lasting family morality and lasting family vitality. We have a way that is the truly Blessed way. That's what we need to be doing. We need to be getting our own act in order.

Everything's shaking around us. It's time for the people of God to rise. Be sure to check out this week's special resource offer, Baker Books, now a beautiful edition of the Tree of Life Bible just published. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. The number to call. I want to go right to the phones with Rachel in Ventura, California. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi.

Hello. Hi. Hi. Can you hear me? Loud and clear, Rachel.

Hi. And the same.

So I actually you know, I'm accidentally kind of just calling you right now. I was um I'm going through this legal issue. with my baby's dad, who's a born and biological man. And um I was with him, and he was a man, and we were with each other for almost two years, and we were not married because he. He had had a failed marriage before and told me he didn't believe in it, but he you know, hat he was kind of a faith.

He's he's was kind of Jewish and and I'm was Christian and we both believed in commitment. You know, he said he'd never leave me if I didn't commit adultery, and we had our relationship.

Well, Um, two years into this, I got pregnant and had a little girl. And three months after um she was born, he pretty much Left and well, all this stuff starts happening. You know, he started wearing my clothes, and it was really. A lot of things happen. A lot of really personal things happen.

So then he left and and every and he was kind of out of the picture and would come and visit.

Well Eventually then because of me being a single mom. I had to get some help. and um government help and stuff and they went after him for child support. And then after that at that point he started going after me. You know, for all this custody and saying that because I had to work and because basically now the position that he put me in with his choice.

to then have to work and be away from my daughter that then Now he should be able to stay home with her because He can live at home with his parents and be a stay-at-home mom, essentially, is what it seemed like. I had brought this up to the courts, but they kind of didn't believe it, and he denied it at first.

Well, now in January, he kind of came out, you know, as a woman. And now he's He's making my two-year-old daughter call him mommy, and she called him daddy for. And she was. probably eight months old and You know, it's just so confusing and then Then we're going to court. I mean, he's taking us to court all the time.

So now all this money's being spent on. That so now he's got all these lawyers and To me, it just seems so selfish. Like, I've always been a really loving, open-minded person, but now she's. I'm the bigot every time that these custody exchanges because I won't just call him mommy because I don't feel like that's right since Now he's just a tie bigot, five bigot, and it's just so Ridiculous. Yeah.

And now I'm in this huge court case and just trying to fight for w what I believe is in my best interest. And now it's kind of becoming clear to me that I feel like As much as they stay. I'm discriminating, or I'm a bigot. I kind of feel like I'm the actual one that's being. attacked and discriminated against in that I can't raise my daughter with He asked her mother.

You know what I'm saying? And with my My belief and trying to protect her and stuff. And so I've actually just been calling around trying to get like expert. Advice and maybe witnesses. I don't have a lot of money, but I was just people who actually like on.

the other side of things because They have so much Oh, well, let's There's this This research and this research, but it really hasn't been around a long time. I went to school for child development. And I've researched already a lot about gender identity from my own studies and And to for these people just to just Assume This, a lot of people change their minds. There's a lot of people who have regret letters.

So, how do I know this man isn't going to all of a sudden then?

Now go back to to to who you was. It's just really confusing. All right, Rachel, listen, stay right there, and we're going to get some sanity in the midst of it. You are not the bigot. And this man is not your daughter's mommy.

And there is a way to stand against this.

So I want to talk to you about a few things. Please stay right there and we'll be right back. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, I want to continue talking with Rachel in Ventura, California. Rachel, how old are you? I'm twenty nine. 29 years old. Are are you part of a local church there in Ventura?

Yeah, in Ojai, where I actually live, I am a part of a local church, yes. My pastor has. has been really supportive. But it's just nobody knows kind of go about this In a legal way, and you know, it's been really hard. No, Rachel, listen, I.

There's no way I can wrap my mind around what you're going through right now. There's your little two-year-old. Yeah, I can't. I mean, I understand these issues. To a point, but I've never been through what you're going through, obviously, and the trauma of this.

So, just to be clear, and so my people have. No, obviously, but these things are increasing. Look, there's someone close to my family. Who close to the age of 70 years old decided that he could no longer hide his secret and said he's transitioning to a woman.

So what does that do to a marriage of decades? What does that do to grown kids? Grandkids.

So my heart goes out to people who struggle, but. The fact is, you cannot have his struggles imposed on Imposed on you and on your little one.

So, so Rachel, Yeah, ho hopefully hopefully you little one wh what's your name? Her name is. You know, I'd rather not. Oh, they don't say it. That's fine.

Don't say it. They have me in a position. No, no, no, no, no, don't, don't, don't. Don't say anything. Don't say it.

Like, say, kids. No, no, that's fine. Listen, the world is being turned upside down. It is moral. insanity.

We have gone from Where morality is relative to now reality is relative. Reality is whatever I perceive it to be. Do you know that Facebook now gives 50 different ways to define your gender, including 10 simultaneously? And if that's not enough, you can fill in the blank. This is social madness.

The fact that the Obama administration has now said that children schools are required to say let a 14-year-old boy share the locker room and shower stalls with a 14-year-old girl and play on the sports teams, it's social madness. But, Rachel, people are waking up. Around the country and saying enough is enough. And cases like yours, the real trauma this brings to a mother and a child, this needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Now, in a moment, I'm going to give you a number to call for the Alliance Defending Freedom. This is a Christian legal society. They can offer services for free. They are thoroughly Uh Involved in these kinds of cases. They understand the issues.

They know experts that can help testify and back these things. But just so everybody understands this clearly, The relationship you had with this man, okay, it was out of wedlock, it would have been better in wedlock, but it was a normal male-female relationship, right? You know, right. Normal. Totally normal.

And, you know, our agreement was that. I I was a preschool teacher in in Man East and I have a degree in early childhood development, and he was the breadwinner. And I had not been working and this is why I think it becomes like a really big issue of like biological women's and mothers' rights. And there needs to be something spelled out in like a Bill of Rights type of thing because I don't know if that's the right term for it because I really feel like now in my research that this is going to start happening more. I literally feel like I was deceived.

And like tricked into having um A child with this person and then You know, they came out and then now they're using all their money to take my baby away from me. And because I'm in a lower socioeconomic bracket, it makes it easier to be bullied by all this legal stuff. Right. Listen, the bigotry is on their side. The bullying is on their side.

Because you keep getting hit with this, Rachel. You need to remind yourself that you are the one thinking sanely. And you are the one who really has the best interests of your daughter. Listen, if he was a mommy, then the two of you could not have produced a baby. Mommy plus mommy does not produce a baby.

He is the father of the child. He is confused about his identity now, but he is the father of this child, and he needs to take responsibility as such. If I were you, if he wants to dress up as mommy and be called mommy, I would do everything in my power to have the courts block any access to him. If he was just going to be the father and involved and so on, but you're not married, that's one thing. If he's going to claim to be the mother and insist on be called mommy and traumatize and confuse a two-year-old, then I would do everything in my power to work with the courts, to work with good Christian lawyers to make sure that he does not have any custody to this child, and that he is going to be responsible on some level for child support.

The other thing, Rachel, is that everything that circumstances... The world, the devil mean for evil, bad choices we make mean for evil. God can turn around for good. And you are absolutely lot alone. First, there are people listening to this show who are going to pray for you when they hear this.

Trust me, they're already praying, and there are mothers who are probably weeping over this situation. And it could be that prayer for this man will turn his heart and that he'll get free and that he'll become whole. My pastor says, you know, that's the thing is. is like I don't wanna I've I have a I'm the youngest of six kids and we ha I have a a gay sibling and I've always been I was we were raised by a Christian sponge, but she's, you know, raised us at odds about love and acceptance and, you know, there's no There's no worse end than one other. But, you know, he does give us choices, and those choices have effects and stuff.

And that then. you know, I've always thought I was really loving And open-minded. But the thing is, is Win. Part of love is creating boundaries and protecting your kids. And like, you wouldn't want your kids to go, you know, hurt themselves in other ways, but then it's like, I feel like this is a type of like body mutilation.

And and and essentially, And it's a difficult thing.

Well, here, Rachel, think of this for a minute. There are people who suffer with what's called. body identity integrity order. Disorder, B-I-I-D. They don't believe that they should have like a right arm or a left leg.

And they're genuinely tormented by this. And they actually try to mutilate themselves so that they can be happy and they can be whole by mutilating themselves. And we all say that's wrong. And yet we turn around and say it's okay for someone to have sex change surgery. And here's a biological male who's going to try to become a female.

He'll never be a true female. Why is that okay? But listen, Rachel, do you have a way to write something down now? Can you write a phone number down? Yeah, let me run back inside real quick.

Hold on.

Okay, sure thing. Sure thing. I mean, it's This is literally I had to I was um Lucky I remarried awesome man with some church and And he's Great. I but I was working and stuff and because I'd have to go to court and because this person is actually using was using me having to work because they didn't know. you know, be a stay at home mom and stuff and That it wasn't good for her to not be away from me.

So then what I did is quit working, so now I can be stay-at-home mom too, thankfully, because of my husband. But it just affects every angle of our life. And then now I'm in court. But when thousands of dollars are going to this whole thing. And I feel like That's gonna do.

Well, Rachel, God's not going to forsake you in the midst of this. What you need to do is really, really get close to him. Really lean on Him. Your Heavenly Father cares deeply about you. and about your little one.

Alright, so this is not... The end is as dark as it feels, as difficult, as painful. God is going to help as you cry out to him.

So, can you write this number down? Yeah, let me just go ahead and get a nano. Hold on one second. All right. All right.

There you go. There you go. You ready? What's the numbers? It's 1-800.

Uh-huh. 1-800-0800. 835. Five two three three. 5233.

That's the Alliance Defending Freedom, the ADF, okay? Uh when you call Make sure that you tell them that I specifically asked you to call. Many of their folks work with me there, know me well. They will have attorneys right in your city, okay? And someone will definitely want to help.

All right. And listen, we are right now, folks are listening across the country. This is a live radio broadcast. And it's important, folks, that you pray for Rachel. This is why we talk about the kinds of things we talk about because real lives.

Are being affected, and you hear the shocking things that people are going through.

So, Rachel, get back to us. Let us know what's going on. You can also write to us through the website. I understand you found us on internet, and that's how you happened to call in. And when I saw what the call was about, I said we're going to change direction right now and take your call.

Let us know what happens. I'm also going to alert one of my colleagues at the ADF about your situation as well. Let us know, and God will help. This is not the end of the story. All right, hang in there.

And friends, let's be praying for Rachel and for her family. Thank you so much for calling. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

My friends, what do you say to that? What do you say to that? Here is uh a woman Finds my name on the Internet. All right, Betsy, that's that's how it happens. Found my name online.

As someone that knew about transgender issues, and I know about these things because of studying this for years and listening to arguments on both sides and talking to professionals. and being grieved over what's happening in the society. wanting to help those who are struggling. At the same time that Uh We want to help those who are struggling at the same time. We have to stand up for.

moral sanity.

So if you missed the beginning of a call, She has a baby with someone out of wedlock. And then a couple years into the relationship, the guy now starts cross-dressing.

now begins to identify as a woman, now wants the two-year-old to call him mommy And then Has there been a custody battle? And as she's trying to get support, He says, Well, look, I can stay with my parents and be a stay at home mom, whereas you have to work so it's not good for the baby. The baby should be with me, the man, who considers himself a mommy. Here she is in tears spending thousands of dollars and legal fees and This friends, this is insanity. This situation is insanity.

And then the woman gets called the bigot when she sees the guy he call says hi bigot. This man needs help. This man needs help This is what we're dealing with, friends. It's social madness. All right, it looks like I'm not getting to answer any email questions right now.

Maybe later, next hour. Another day We'll do it on the air. Let me take another call. Northern Virginia. Sam, welcome to the line of fire.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Appreciate, sir. Yeah, you talking about this. I don't know if you've c if you may have thought or anyone stopped, but I was thinking So these people that they claim that they're women and And they're actually men, but they claim that they're women.

But they're lesbians, that they could claim that they're lesbians. What do you think about that? They're men, but they go to they can go to the women's bathroom, but the They can claim that they're lesbians. They said that they like women. In fact, Sam, that's very common.

Not that they identify as lesbians, but that they have heterosexual attractions. In other words, transgender individuals always want to say this is not about being gay. It is about how they identify. On the inside, in terms of their gender. That's scary.

That's scary. Right. So here's what it means then. Uh it would mean that uh Bruce Jenner If Bruce Jetto was in, say, the ladies' locker room. that he would be theoretically attract it to women just like a heterosexual man.

But if he identifies as a woman, Now does that mean he's identifying as a lesbian? I mean it's it's Yeah, and I don't mean that in a laughing way because we hear about these things, sadly. On a regular basis. In fact, according to some reports, according to some reports, The one reason that Bruce Jenner is considering, quote, detransitioning.

Now, his rep denies this, but some reports say. The reason he is thinking about detransitioning. is because of his Christian beliefs. And as a Christian, He He is uncomfortable with same-sex relationships. God help, Bruce Jenner.

That he feels like a man, he feels like a woman on the inside, but he has heterosexual desires, so he's attracted to women. He wants to be in a relationship with a woman, but not as a woman, because he thinks same-sex relationships are wrong.

So he wants to do as a man according to The report. There are cases we've documented them. with things out of the people's own mouths. where a guy identifies as a girl. and and is using the girl sauna.

In Washington State, in a college, a pool facility shared by the local high school.

Some of the high school girls come in there are shocked to see a biological male. in their sauna. And report it to the school. The school says nothing we can do because we can't. we can't discriminate based on gender identification, comes to find out that this A man who identifies as a woman has had his name legally changed.

Uh has the hots for girls. Yeah. Or is he still heterosexual?

Now would what be a lesbian? Thank you for the call, Sam. Look, look. I wish That A hundred years would go by. Where we didn't have to mention any of these subjects again, except for helping people find wholeness in Jesus.

That was the only time we ever had to say a word. I would love for that to be the case. But when kids come home from school crying When the Obama administration pronounces utterly ridiculous edicts Where our administration, spokespeople for our administration, say things like a transgendered man is a man, period. Those are the facts. As David French on National Review said, So, were you telling me a man can have a menstrual cycle?

or a woman can have a male private organ? Or a man can conceive a baby and get pregnant? Obviously not. When you say man you must mean something very, very different. Uh Tell you what, let me try to squeeze in one last call.

All right, real quick, Andre, we're short on time. Andre in Fairfax, Virginia. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Andre. Look at that, you're trying to squeeze a caller in.

and you lose them.

Alright, it it would have been a bit of a rush anyway. I did not ask for this topic. I did not ask for this assignment. And by the way, I'm not complaining. I'm simply saying that there are many things I would much rather do.

I would much rather. Just give myself to calling the church to revival. I would much rather Just give my attention to Jewish evangelism. I would much rather just give my attention to world missions. But as I travel around the world, Leaders, including government leaders, want to sit with me.

and want to talk about these issues. because they're being bombarded with them. And they are coming under pressure because of them. and they're being given ultimatums. By other businesses, by other universities, by the Obama administration.

And by the way, by the way, if Hillary Clinton or Bernie Saunders are elected, they will be far worse. in terms of pushing the agenda or at least as bad.

So these are issues we must address, but let us address them. with hearts of love for those who struggle. The pastor texted me late last night. He said we had our first transgender come to a service we really loved on. And the person, then we found out it's you know, male to female, who's using the female bathroom here.

We want to use the bathroom of their birth, their biological sex. How do we handle this? This is a pastor. Yeah, we're going to love on this person and show them the goodness of God. It's exactly what I told them to do when I preached there a couple of weeks earlier.

But these are The challenge is friends. Let us be sons and daughters of Issachar, understanding the times and knowing what is real. Should Do be sure to check out my latest articles, videos, and our very special resource offer this week at askdrbrown.org. My bottom line today, we as the people of God must understand the times and know what the church should do.

So who would Jesus vote for?

Okay. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUT.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire. In a few minutes, I am going to speak with. Professor Darrell Bach. He's a good friend. He's one of the world's top evangelical New Testament scholars.

And he's written a new book. What would Jesus do when it comes to voting? Who would Jesus vote for? And he challenges a lot of our thinking. I love Darrell coming from the word not fitting into a standard political.

Uh Well, political mold and really challenging our thinking.

So, we'll talk about that in a moment. 866-348-7884. Interestingly. While things were so volatile on the Republican side and the Democratic side leading up to the primaries. And questions of a contested convention on the Republican side, questions of a potential third party on the Republican side, questions of whether the Republican Party would coalesce behind Donald Trump if he won the election, if he didn't win in the first vote and it came to a contested convention, would he break away?

Would there be a third party?

Well, right now, the Republican side is volatile but greatly calmed down. Since Senator Cruz dropped out with the inevitability of a Trump candidacy, or at least no path to victory for Ted Cruz, which would then make Donald Trump the presumptive nominee, then in that case, There's more and more Republican unity behind him. Although there's still great division, and there's still many leaders that won't support him, and many questions being asked, and some still talking about third party, but the Republican is more settled. What's unsettling is what type of candidate Donald Trump would be. And I would love to see him learn three simple words.

I'll probably write about it and hope that he'll read it. I have friends that love the Lord, leaders that I know have spent time with them, some cases one-on-one, some cases in groups. I know he's heard the gospel plainly preached. It is my hope that he will truly hear it and receive the Lord and be changed. or at the least recognize some of the important principles that are being shared with him.

But for sure, if he could learn these three simple words, I. was Wrong. I was wrong. Unfortunately, in his interview with Megan Kelly last night, I read some of the transcript when he brought up retweeting a nasty attack on Heidi Cruz, Ted Cruz's. godly, devoted, lovely wife.

He uh Yeah, well, maybe shouldn't well, you know, look, she was she was actively involved in the campaign with him, so it was it was fine for him to do it. Boy, God gives grace to the humble, He resists the proud. How redemptive that would be So if you truly learn the meaning of that, not saying the words, but learn the meaning of I was wrong. Here are three more words. I am sorry.

That that would mean a lot and would give you hope. for the future.

Okay. Not only so, But on the Democratic side. things continue to get more volatile. And for the most part, the protests that have been taking place, the protests that have taken place at the Trump rallies, campaign rallies, have been largely the radical left protesting and more of the Bernie Sanders crowd, perhaps sponsored by George Shoros and others.

Soros here in America. I've been in Hungary a lot. He's called, he's Hungarian, so Soros is how they pronounce it there.

So forgive my English mispronunciation. There's been more protesting from the radical left. And what happens now on the Democratic side with Hillary the presumptive nominee? Will the the Sanders people break away? It's an extraordinarily volatile time.

It's hardly politics as usual.

So the big question comes to us as Christians. The one thing we can do, along with pray, along with get informed, is vote. Let's vote. How should we vote? What would Jesus do?

My guest, Professor Daryl Bach, is going to help us think these things through. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

My friend Daryl Bach. Is one of the leading evangelical New Testament scholars in the world, research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. But he's also had this knack. For writing books about timely subjects, when the Da Vinci Code was the rage, he wrote a New York Times best-selling book, Breaking the Da Vinci Code. When people are claiming we don't have the original Gospels or these other pseudo-gospels or the real gospels, he'll have a book coming out on this.

So I was delighted to see how. How would Jesus vote? Do your political positions really align with the Bible? And now it gets interesting here. There's a great endorsement from Russell Moore, who's the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, Southern Baptist Convention.

Russell Moore says, In an era of cable, TV, shouting matches, and social media wars, we're in desperate need of Dr. Bach's wisdom. But hang on. Russell Moore has recently been trashed by Donald Trump, and Russell Moore is of the never-Trump mentality. Where do we stand?

I endorse Senator Ted Cruz. I've had people call and explain why they're going to vote for Democrats. These are multifaceted issues, and Darryl is going to help sort these through. Hey, Darrell, welcome to the line of fire.

Well, Michael, it's good to hear your voice. And usually we're together, but now it's by distance, and this is working out great. I really appreciate you having me on. Oh, are you kidding me? The moment this book came on my desk, I said, get Daryl, get him on immediately.

I'd have to even. I said that first, and I started flipping through it second. I thought, all right, this is probably going to challenge me because I tend not to think through. I'm focused on a few issues. And I got a lot of ammunition on those, but there are plenty of other issues to think through.

So, first, When did you decide to write this book and why? Oh, this book has been in the works for about six years. And it took me about four to figure out how exactly I wanted to write it. My original idea was to put an elephant and a donkey on the beginning of each chapter and have one that had a check by it and one that had a line going through it. And then as you went through the chapters, that would be bouncing back and forth depending on the issue.

And I decided, now that's not going to work. Um and then about I'd say about three years ago, I finally decided, okay, this is what I want to do and how I want to say it. And then and then I wrote it uh over the over that period and was done basically a year ago. I had absolutely no idea we would be in the what I will describe as the mess that we're in now. And in some ways, that's good and bad.

I mean, it's good, and at the point of the book, The book's not entitled Who Would Jesus Vote For? The book is entitled How Would Jesus Vote, which means how would he even approach the discussion of the issues. That we're looking at that everyone's having trouble sorting through. And the point of the book is: we live in a fallen world in which we live life intentions. and w our political world is in gridlock.

both of those are pretty bad places to be.

So how do you function in a fallen world, in a place where gridlock seems to be dominating? And my premise is that we've been robbed of the political discourse that we need because we've picked sides on issues that actually have biblical elements coming at us from both sides. And the question is how to balance out those biblical elements. And we never have that discussion because we pick, we cherry pick. And in the process, we rob our society of the actual discussion it needs to have.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you on that. And I'm sure to a certain extent I have lines drawn in the sand and non-negotiable issues. What about other issues?

Sometimes those become secondary.

Well, let's ask the most fundamental question first. Would you say that it is a duty? For American Christians to vote, or simply a privilege, responsibility? How would you phrase that? I think it's a responsibility to vote.

I think it's part of being a good citizen. I think thinking through How my society works is a part of loving my neighbor. And so and trying to think through that as conscientiously as possible. I think what our politics has become is a question of special interest. We have tended to focus on how do politics work for me.

And one of the points of the book is to talk about the pursuit of common good in a pluralistic reality that we live in.

So then the question becomes no, not what works for me, but what works for us. And that changes the direction of the arrow. That also impacts the way I think. And what I'm arguing in the book is they're really I don't say this explicitly in the book, I've thought about it since, there are really three kinds of issues. There's the issue in which each side is cherry-picking from the Bible and emphasizing the biblical part of the argument when they argue religiously and spiritually, the part of the argument that makes the case that they want to make ideologically.

Um That that's what I'm complaining about in most of the book. There are a handful of issues where we actually all know what we should do and be. We just have no clue how to get there. I think racial reconciliation is in that kind of a category. And who's against racial reconciliation?

Who's against the races getting along? Very few people, but we don't we struggle to get there. And then there are some in which we're very much on the opposite ends of the discussion when you sort it out. biblically. I think the sexuality discussion and the life issues tied to abortion are in that category.

But we still have the practical problem of living in a pluralistic world where everyone's not in agreement on those things.

So we still have to figure out how to live together in the midst of that difference.

So um so that's the space we're negotiating, if you will.

Alright, so when we want to be informed by biblical excuse me biblical values We want to read scripture. We want to understand principles of ethics, justice, fairness, those things that are important to God's heart for the good of society, principles that we think are in the right direction regarding security or immigration or the economy, whatever it is. The moment we begin to either quote scripture. Or say, based on the Bible, I come to these conclusions. People cry separation of church and state.

People say this is not a theocracy.

Now, I know these are just sound bites people throw out, but how do we respond to that when they say, well, this is not a theocracy, so get your Bible out of politics? What I would say is that what the Bible is ultimately concerned about is not. is not religion in the way that that person fears it. What the Bible is ultimately concerned about is how we relate to people as human beings well.

Okay, that's ultimately also what politics is concerned about, at least in theory.

So, So we're working the same ground. I also would say that what at least the Christian faith teaches, I think Judaism teaches this as well. is that every person is sacred because we view them as being made in the image of God. That actually makes them in some ways more special and more worthy of concern than a secular view of a human being who's here for a while and then gone.

So um So there actually we've upped the ante on being concerned about this.

Now sometimes we haven't showed that concern and compassion and that level of engagement as we ought to. But at least the motive is not to try and control someone else. The motive is to try and ask the question, what's the most effective way for people to steward this creation well, which is actually what comes right out of Genesis 1. And those are the questions we're trying to wrestle with. acknowledging at the in the second step that we live in a fallen world, we live in a world of tension because and we live in a world sometimes of dysfunction because we as human beings don't live perfectly.

And so we've got to figure out how to get along. All right, why would you say That white evangelicals tend to largely vote Republican. Black evangelicals tend to largely vote Democrat. How is it that both can claim to come from a Christian perspective, a Biblical perspective, and land in such different camps?

Okay, now this is going to be an uncomfortable answer, but I think it's fundamentally true. Because whites look at the world through the prism of being. The majority and controlling and power feature in the culture. And African Americans look at the world through a minority lens in which they're constantly having to adapt to that reality. And so that produces a whole different level of sensitivities on each side.

And without the lack of communication between the two to understand why that is, you end up with that level of a disconnect. Got it. All right, so that fundamental perspective, which is something that we often leave out. All right, we've just got a minute before the break here. In your book, How Would Jesus Vote?

What are some of the chapters? What are some of the categories that you discuss?

Well, it's in it's basically in two parts. The first part is a little civics lesson on what our government is and is not. We're not a Christian nation. We live in the midst of plurality. I make a point about about the Ark Nation being built on two wings, reason and religion.

Originally, we're losing one wing. You can't fly with one wing.

So that's an appeal for religious discourse as a part of our ethical discourse. And then I go through a series of individual issues and apply the principle of the left and the right cherry picking from the Bible and then show what the alternative might produce for us in terms of kinds of discussion. All right, so we're going to flesh this out. We're going to hit on a number of hot-button issues when I come back with my guest, Professor Darrell Bach. The book, which I'm flipping through as I have opportunity, as it's on my desk right now, how would Jesus vote?

Not who would he vote for, how would Jesus vote? Do your political positions really align with the Bible? Daryl's gonna get us thinking. We'll be right back. Shake the nation.

Change the world. Change the world. Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

My guest. Professor Darrell Bach, How Would Jesus Vote is the book. Maybe we'll take some calls in a little while, 866-348-7884. If you want to raise a specific issue, be it immigration, be it economy, be it abortion. We may get to some specifics and take your calls, 866-348-7-884.

How would Jesus vote? Let me go back to something you said right before the break, Daryl, and it's the beginning of your book, about the principles on which the nation was founded. You can go back to the charters of the colonies. And they were thoroughly Christian. You can go back to the old Deluder Satan Act in the 1600s, where it was important that every town that had at least 50 families would have a school so that children could learn to read, so they could read the Bible.

And that Satan would not be able to keep the Bible away from people. We know how widely the Bible was used as a textbook in school readings. The early readers extensively quoted scripture and used the Bible as a textbook. And yet you say America was not a Christian nation, but was rather built on principles of humble faith and reason. Could you explain that a little bit more depth?

Yeah, because by the time you get to the time of the founders of the nation who are putting together the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, we have a mix in our midst in terms of what it is that people are believing. I used the picture in the book early on of Jonathan Witherspoon, who was an evangelical preacher, if you want to put it in modern terms, and Thomas Jefferson, who was a Unitarian who didn't believe in miracles. sitting at the same table and signing a document about the nature of our government that would allow them both to function as neighbors side by side. And I raised the question, in the midst of the all the debates that they would have had one another about the nature of reality, the nature of religion, et cetera, they thought they had put together a government that could work for both of them. That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about happened.

So, here's what I think is going on, Michael. We've got. Uh We haven't had a Christian nation, but what we've had is the Judeo-Christian net that was our culture that was wrapped around our nation. And we have lost that net in the last 50 years. Um And so what was kind of default space for people in many ways, whether they were nominally Christian or committed Christians or whatever, has now become a much more open playing field in terms of what's going on, and everybody is having to adjust to that and and the adjustment has produced a societal gridlock for us that that we either Stay in, I think, to our detriment, or we figure out a different way to negotiate our shared space on this world and try and figure out a way to function better as a society.

And the book is really about a plea for a different kind of discourse. with a different kind of set of goals about how we do that. And for you, following biblical principles is a key for that.

So, in your starting points, you lay out that faith in the Creator defines the purpose of life. And you talk about stewardship in Genesis the first chapter. That's right. And there's this interesting quote from George Washington that is his farewell address. given on September 19, 1796, and it says, Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.

In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens, the mere politician equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them.

Now that's an assumption that Washington shared, I think, with most of the people around him, regardless of their specific religious beliefs.

Some of that has changed now. And so And yet my plea is, is that actually these are important elements to allow into discourse because they do provide a reference point for some stability in the conversations that we have because the conversations that we have in politics are about life and death issues and how we relate to one another and how we get along and how we handle our differences and all those kinds of things. Right. So, what we want to somehow advocate is that there's great wisdom in God's Word, that there's great wisdom in biblical principles for the good of everyone. I would say that living to the extent we can advocate for biblical principles, that's in the best interest of atheists in America.

Yeah, in fact, here's the way I like to talk about it, and I'm talking about this from the standpoint of someone who's in the church. I think the way we used to communicate to the culture that we're engaged with went something like this. It's true. because it it's in the Bible.

Okay. And so the Bible was our warrant and the truthfulness was supported because it's in the Bible. But to the culture that we're in now, we have to flip that, okay? It's in the Bible because it's true. Yeah.

Okay? And when I say it's in the Bible because it's true, that means we need to probe what makes life efficient and effective And why does the Bible say it this way?

Well, the Bible says it this way because this is a healthy way for people to get along. This is a healthy way to function. This is an efficient way to live. This is living life the way it was designed to be lived. Those kinds of points.

And that's a point you can make to someone or attempt to make to someone regardless of where they're coming from religiously. And that takes work on our part. But it's a different kind of communication because now it's got to dig a little deeper than simply say, you know, the Bible tells me so. Right. So, for example, I was just writing on the subject for a book I'm writing on to come out next year, which intersects with a lot of the preliminary material in your book, which really fascinated me.

That the whole concept of being created in the image of God and the dignity that gives to every human being, and obviously, that fuels the pro-life movement, but then you have to show how it affects all of society and lifts up humanity because we're created in the image of God. You take that away, and we just are a massive cells or a carbon unit.

So, yes, it's or a special interest group, you know. And so, the key here is no matter how flawed People are the one thing we can say about them religiously, or one thing we can say about them religiously, is they're all made in the image of God. Their life deserves respect. Our discourse and engagement with them deserves to be done with respect, et cetera. And so this impacts the tone with which we engage.

Sometimes we can be right, but if we do it in the wrong tone, we've actually not been very biblical about how we've engaged. Yeah, and so that means, for example, when I'm dealing with issues of LGBT activism, as I just got a very painful call from a woman with a situation where the father of her child now claims to be a woman and wants to be called mommy and so on. And one thing we always emphasize is that every individual, including those who identify as transgender, are created in the image of God and yet fallen and those for whom Jesus died.

So while we want to stand up for what's right in society, we have to do it in a way that's compassionate to every human being, including those who are struggling and including those who are in rebellion because God offers mercy. All right, when we come back, Daryl, let's start to go through some of the controversial issues, big government or small, personal wealth or shared resources. And friends, whatever side you're on, Darryl Bach will get you thinking. And he'll get you thinking a lot more if you get the book. How would Jesus vote?

Do your political positions really align with the Bible? Dr. Tony Evans says Dr. Daryl Bach has given us an excellent tool for biblically and wisely addressing the myriad of political issues we face today. It is must-reading for those who want real answers to real problems.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Professor Darryl Bach, prolific New Testament scholar. teachers at Dallas Theological Seminary research professor there written many fine commentaries on the New Testament and theological penetrating books in the New Testament. Also has written some really practical books where he takes his biblical scholarship and then in terms everyone can understand, unpacks things for us. His newest book, How Would Jesus Vote? Do your political positions really align with the Bible.

And one of the things that's really fascinating, Darrell, doing live talk radio, is I get to interact with folks from a wide, wide range of views. And it fascinates me. That committed Christians can be so divided when it comes to politics, and passionately so. I mean, we'll be talking about the gospel and agree, agree, agree, agree, and then we'll be talking politics, and next thing everybody's blood is boiling. What do you counsel us to do?

How should we better approach this as we ask, how would Jesus vote?

Well, one of the Points of the book that I hope I'm able to demonstrate is how both the right and the left. selectively handle biblical themes. And the appeal of the book is, look, we live in a fallen world in which life is in tension. And politics is about negotiating life that's in tension. And so you need to be able to see that both sides oftentimes are bringing to the table certain themes that are reflected out of biblical concerns and have respect for that, and that our political discourse needs to turn in a direction in which we negotiate out these tensions.

That's actually what politics is designed to do. And when we dig in and we say this is this is where this is the right position or this is the left position, and we selectively handle the text, we actually rob ourselves of the discourse not only that we ought to have, but that we need to have in order to try and balance things that are in tension, which is what politics ultimately is trying to negotiate. All right, let's take a couple of minutes. We've just got a short segment here, and then we'll come back for a longer one. A couple of minutes.

Where do those on the right, that's where I put myself, where do we get things wrong? What are we missing? Where do those on the left get things wrong? What are they missing? Ooh, man, it depends on the issue.

So I'm not sure it's always that it can be quite put that way. But let's take an example, okay? On immigration, okay, generally speaking, the right has been a voice that's been, let's say, hesitant to pursue immigration reform, and the left has been Interested in pursuing immigration reform.

Now, I think that one of the factors that's going on here, if we're just honest, is that. is that there's probably a recognition, although I don't think this is necessarily true, that if you open up and broaden the voting base, that's going to help the left and harm the right.

So I I so that's So that may be part of what's going on here. But in fact, if you think about the actual Hispanic population about which this would be an important segment of this conversation if you're trying to assimilate them. They actually are conservative, generally speaking, theologically. They're heavily influenced by the Catholic Church. They are very family-oriented for the most part, that kind of thing.

They have some core conservative values there.

So, I'm not sure that read is necessarily correct, although the way our politics has worked out, we've tended to push Hispanics to the left by the way, the right has reacted.

Okay, so that's part one. But here's the point. On the one hand, a nation has every right to determine the kind of nation it's going to be, what its laws are going to be and expect its laws to be followed.

Okay, the law needs to be honored in order to have a stable society. But the flip side of Scripture is that we're supposed to show terr as Christians at least, show terrific compassion to those who are foreigners. And the Old Testament is chock full of texts Talking about how foreigners are to be cared for in the context of Israel, regardless of what their religious belief is, because Israel knew what it was to be a slave, to be under slavery. Those are in tension with each other. The resolution on the other side of the break.

All right, you got it. Good timing there, Daryl. Spoken like a true radio. Experts. Join Dr.

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Okay. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back, friends, to the line of fire. We may get to some calls. If you'd like to speak with Daryl Bach, my guest, about how would Jesus vote? Maybe pose a very specific question to him. We'll try to grab a couple of calls, 866-348-7-884.

Hey, Daryl, you have my studio here cheering you on for your good ending there in the segment like a true radio host.

So nicely done, Darryl. All right, so the resolution. The law must be kept when it comes to immigration. You can't have lawlessness. You just can't have people flooding into a nation.

The nation must govern the way it wants to govern and have the nation be the way it wants to be and have its laws. On the other hand, Israel responded, you were slaves in Egypt. Be kind to the sojourner in your midst, to the immigrant in your midst. Obviously, he wasn't talking about a terrorist coming in to kill you, but the vast majority of immigrants in our country are not terrorists coming in to kill us.

So what's the resolution? Oh, great way to set up the question because you added another layer I didn't have time for before, which is the whole security question, which obviously also is a part of this. And what you can see is that there are multiple sets of legitimate concerns. And what happens is each side kind of picks the concern that controls their conversation. And what I'm arguing in the book is, is that rather than making that the key way to think about this, what you're wrestling for is how to balance all these elements.

And so one way to do it with regard to immigration or at least one way to propose to do it is let's fix the border first and then worry about what's going on internally. But that doesn't work. It doesn't work for two reasons. One is Some people will claim the border is never fixed and will never get to the internal issues. The second reason is that part of your problem is what's going on internally that you need to fix.

Now deporting 11 or 12 million undocumented workers and their families, some of whom have been here for three generations, some of whom were here by invitation initially and then by winks and nods for generations, and then all of a sudden we got worked up about immigration, that's not a very just way to think about this. In the chapter, I actually go through the history of our immigration laws so people can see how we got into the situation where.

So what do you do? You decouple the conver the process. You work on fixing your borders. in really trying to stabilize how your immigration policy works. But you also work internally on how to assimilate the many people who are here and the people who want to stay here and really the people who would like to be good citizens if there were a way to have it happen.

And what do you do with the undocumented people? You make them pay for their crime with a penalty of time in terms of what it takes for them to come to full citizenship. And then it's not straight amnesty. The word that I think has damaged our immigration discussion more than any other is the use of the word amnesty whenever you talk about integration and assimilation of those who are already here as if any path to citizenship is automatically amnesty. That's not the case.

It can be structured in such a way that law is honored on the one hand and there's an effect of penalty paid for, and yet you integrate these people. It's to our society's benefit ultimately to integrate these people rather than have them operate underground in our society for a whole series of reasons, some of which we discover when two cars run into each other and one person doesn't have insurance because they didn't want to expose themselves in the process. And by the way, my conclusions are very similar to yours. That was one area where I had a different perspective than Senator Cruz, whom I endorsed. I thought, yeah, as much as you enforce the law, you still have to deal with certain realities on the ground and the people that have been here multi-generationally and give them a pass.

And you're wrestling with communicating your sense of compassion and care for people as you work out your politics. The real thrust of this book Is an attempt to argue that in the end, our politics should reflect as much as possible our commitment to people. And that that's kind of the ethical center of what you're trying. Trying to do, and that means doing a good job of listening, of engaging, of reflecting, and also, in some cases, of working out. in some cases, compromises on some of these tensions that allows them to operate in relationship to each other rather than in isolation from each other.

Yeah, you know, I'm reminded of something. When I first spoke for Pastor Robert Morris in Greater Dallas, Texas area, pastor of Gateway Church, he explained to me the motto of the church. That's when they had maybe about 3,000 members. They probably got 30,000, 35,000 members now. But he gave me the whole motto, and he said, if you forget that, just remember this.

If you forget that, just remember, we care about people. And obviously, that's God's heart. It's not humanistic because real care means you've got to have God's perspective on what's best for humanity. But that's at the heart of this. And that's ultimately what politics should be involved with.

All right. Government. Big government or small. Where does Jesus stand on that? When I was wrestling with the question, I was going to get I knew someone was going to ask, okay, so then tell me, how would Jesus vote?

And after I got by my humorous answer, which is Donald Clinton, I would turn around and say, Jesus is going to vote for your neighbor. He's going to have you think through how your issues impact the society that you're living in, and that's what you're always wrestling with.

So sometimes I hear it post as a binary. It's our compassion and it's the church and it's voluntary giving that should serve people and we should keep the government out of it.

Okay? My response is, look, this problem is so big, we need all hands on deck. If we're going to go after some of the issues that we have, some of which are structural, some of which are societal in terms of what they contribute, all hands have to be on deck. But what we need is a serious engagement about how best some of these institutions that we have can and should be involved.

So it's not an all or a nothing, an in or an out. It's a matter of thinking through the degrees to which participation should work, the degrees to which cooperation can take place, et cetera, because some of the problems that we face are that big. And so in the chapter on small or big government, I kind of do a point counterpoint between the people who like what government does and the people who don't like the way government gets involved. And of course, obviously, one of those issues is not just the size of government, but the cost of government. What does it take for a government to do some of the things that we ask?

Can we actually afford societally to be involved in those? Those are all legitimate questions. But we never get to having that kind of discussion with that kind of compassion. Feeding it, most discussions end up with, well, the government's taking tax money, taking the money that I earned out of my pocket, you know, and the arrow's looking at me and what I'm losing in the midst of it rather than thinking about, you know, the taxes that I pay actually contribute to the kind of society that I live in. And so some of that I should be willing to let go of because I understand that it puts me in the position of being able to benefit people who otherwise might not get access to some of that benefit.

At least that's one of the ways to think about the tax dollars that you give.

Now, you can complain about where some of that money goes, and we all would have those complaints. But we also need to remember that there are a lot of things that we take for granted that those tax dollars make possible. All right, so let's go one more step then. And by the way, friends, we're just getting little highlights from a few chapters in the book, How Would Jesus Vote? Your political positions really align with the Bible.

What a perfect time for this book to come out. The author, Daryl Bach. All right, Daryl, a minute and a half. A comprehensive coverage or choice when it comes to healthcare. What would Jesus say about that?

Well, I think again, if you're thinking about loving your neighbor, the question about the question would never be a situation in which what you are able or not able to pay would be able to prevent you from getting cared for. If life is sacred, life is that sacred. And so then the question is: how do you design a system that allows that to take place? And what I do in that chapter is to show. How convoluted our system is, and how we have structures in our system that no other industrialized nation in the world has.

The way in which insurers are impacting our health care is unprecedented in the world, and it helps to drive up our costs. That kind of thing. And so I'm sitting here saying, surely there's a better way to do this. And rather than asking, should the government do it, the one thing, another principle that's important is doctors and patients should be able to have a clean relationship with one another without having someone looking over your shoulder saying, you can't care for that patient in that way. And so there are things that we do that make our health care convoluted, regardless of whether we're talking about Obamacare or not.

And so that's What I'm trying to do is, I'm trying to play with people's thinking about how they even approach some of these issues and to say, our starting points are wrong, and so our ending points are wrong, too. We need to reconfigure how we think about some of these things. Got it. All right. Now, if, friends, we haven't gotten you provoked yet because he hasn't stepped on your toes.

We'll come back and talk about gun violence. I've got a few more minutes with Professor Darrell Bach, his book, How Would Jesus Vote? You thought we were going to spend the whole time talking about abortion and homosexual issues. You haven't mentioned that. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire, my guest Daryl Bach. Professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the world's leading evangelical New Testament scholars, but also writes these very timely, practical, thought-provoking books that don't just speak to Christians, speak to a larger culture. His latest one, which I'm thrilled to be holding in my hands, How Would Jesus Vote? Do your political positions really align with the Bible? Well, generally speaking, if you're a Republican, it's assumed that you're really strong on the Second Amendment and you may be a member of the National Rifle Association.

And if you're a Democrat, it's assumed that you want handguns and weapons turned in, and that only the police should have weapons. And then the other side will say if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns, etc. And each one has their Pain Well, they're they're heart-filled, often painful narratives to tell. What would I mean, Jesus, come on, isn't he the ultimate pacifist? Or what?

He's coming back in flaming fire, taking vengeance on the don't know God. How do we sort this one out? Gun control, self-defense, what a great example of the tension.

Okay, I've got Jesus the pacifist on the one hand. And then I've got Jesus coming back and being part of participating in the ultimate judgment on the other. And that's what you see. You see the right of people to protect their person and their property. You know, it's interesting, in the Old Testament there's a rather strange set of laws.

If you kill someone who invades your tent at night, you're not culpable. But if you kill someone who invents your tent during the day, you are culpable for a fine. And the premise here is that you have the right to defend yourself, but you don't have the right to defend yourself indiscriminately. And so that's kind of the way I see these laws. You know, our society is very different than, say, England, where weapons are at least theoretically outlawed and you're not supposed to have them.

We've made the decision we're going to have weapons. And because we've made that decision, we've got so many weapons now. Even if you wanted to outlaw them, it wouldn't be practical.

So we've got to figure out how to leave with weapons. But the question is, I have the right to defend myself on the one hand, but on the other hand, do I have the right to use whatever weapons in whatever way I want to express whatever revenge or justice as I see it? And the answer to that question, I think, scripturally is no. You have the right to use as much power as is necessary to defend your moral ground, but that's it. And actually, you should be working and trying to do everything you can not to use that power.

When we come to the issue of the military and defense, we've got a similar kind of position that expresses itself that way between nations as well. And so that's part of negotiating the tension. How do I use the power?

So the question is, should the average person have carte blanche on the kinds of weapons they have access to? I think that's a question our society should discuss. I'm not telling you where the line is, but I think it's worthy of discussion. That kind of thing. So that's the way I would handle the gun control situation.

And the beauty of my position is that no one's happy with the position that I take because I'm upsetting a little bit of both sides. But part of the point is to say if you're going to live together as a society with people who have different views, how do you negotiate that space well? And you're asking each side to give up a little something for the sake of the other in the midst of the conversation. All right, so in that sense, we could assume that Jesus would not be registered as Republican or Democrat. Would that be your thinking?

Well, it would be tough to do in Rome because there weren't Republicans and Democrats. Come on, I mean right. I know. I'm having fun with you. No, you know, I think what I'm suggesting here is what Jesus.

What Jesus would ask us to do is think about how we're approaching the issues that we vote on. That's really what we're asking. I'm not asking who would Jesus vote for. I'm asking how would Jesus vote? How would he get us to think through the, and I think all of Scripture does this.

How should we think through the kinds of issues that we face? You know, gun control is kind of a fun one because, of course, there were no guns at any point in the Bible.

So, how do you even talk about that? You talk about that by looking to see what the Bible has to say about violence and defense. Um Those kinds of areas. Tell you what, let's just enjoy having you on as a New Testament scholar. And by the way, Daryl deals with foreign policy and globalization, war and peace, race, education, the family, abortion and embryos.

So, I mean, all these hot button issues. But since I've got a New Testament scholar who's written a massive Luke commentary, in Luke 22, when Jesus asks, you know, do you have any swords? And we have a couple, okay, enough. Was he saying, okay, you don't get it, guys? I'm not talking literally.

I'm saying we need to look like transgressors for Isaiah 53. Or was he saying, hey, it's going to be tough from here on and you need to defend yourselves? How do you interpret that?

Well, it's a little bit of a mix of the two, again, because when, of course, he got arrested, someone took him pretty literally, pulled out their sword, cut off the ear of one of the slaves of Saul. Servant guy, and what did Jesus do? Say, keep fighting? No, he told him to stop, and he healed the guy with the cut ear and allowed himself to be arrested. You know, part of the point of being a Christian is.

That Jesus tried to prepare the disciples for was to say two things: the world's gonna push back on you, you're gonna be persecuted. But the issue is your faithfulness in the midst of that. And so there's something vulnerable about being a Christian that also is a part of this conversation that we need to be sensitive to. But he was saying at the same time, you are going to need to do a little better job of looking out for yourself.

So when the persecution got intense in certain places in Acts, What did Paul do? He fled the city to protect himself, that kind of thing.

So but what you don't see in the New Testament is the church kind of fighting back in kind. When things get violent in acts, it's always the people persecuting the church who are responsible for the violence.

So what would you say to Christians in Syria? Should they b arm themselves against radical Muslims? I think they should do whatever they can to try and protect their health and well being. And if they end up being martyred, they have an eternal relationship with the living God that is more important than anything they have on this earth. Got it.

All right, friends, Darrell Bach. If you're looking for great scholarly resources, New Testament, Daryl's at the top of the list. His brand new book for everybody, this is for your interested reader. How would Jesus vote? Your political positions really align with the Bible.

Hey, Daryl, great talking to you. Thanks for giving us a whole hour. Much appreciated. No, my pleasure, Michael, anytime. All right.

So, friends. Get the book. and let your views be challenged. Yeah, and think about it. And I've often Told you that I've got a few non-negotiables.

I look at where a candidate stands on abortion, where they stand on marriage and family, where they stand on Israel. And if they're strong on those three, then I'll consider their other positions. But if they're not, I won't. That's how I've looked at things. Darryl's challenging us to look at a bunch of other issues and weigh them all carefully.

And yeah, my own view. I'm an independent. I've largely voted Republican for a number of years now. Because of the platform and some of the candidates and my differences with the Democratic side, but I've never thought of Jesus being part of a political party. And you can be, you certainly can be, and feel that's where you want to align and work within that party to bring about good.

But I would never think of putting Jesus within a party, he transcends it and he challenges us to step back and look at these things. All right, friends. Check out this week's latest resource offer. You will be blessed by it. Trust me on that.

Askdrbrown.org. My bottom line today, Jesus doesn't fit into our little group, denomination, political party. He transcends it, he's Lord of it, and he calls us to submit to him, first and foremost.