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Story what an amazing testimony. What a great ministry. I'll be talking with apologist David would start for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are have a great time on the line of fire date last week. Last Wednesday, so one week ago today we focused a lot on Islam talk to my friend Dr. James White about interfaith dialogue he did with conservative Imam. Some of the controversy surrounding that.
Then in the second hour of the broadcast last Wednesday he and Robert Spencer debated the issue of authentic Islam is monolithic. Does it always express itself in violent jihad that got me in communication with Dr. David would watch his videos with joy and interest over the years and he is a leading apologist in dealing with Muslims and atheists member of the society of Christian philosophers, the Evangelical philosophical Society in the human society is a PhD in philosophy from Fordham University, but his way of getting from where he started to Fordham is quite interesting.
So we are told a lot of things when I hear David's personal story and testimony will talk about some of his work with atheists and muzzles will also take your calls. Numbers 8663487884866343 will intersperse some calls and questions from you as well. Hey David, welcome to the line of fire you do and doing great how things on urine. Good alright so you you live in the Bronx. The brought alright man I grilled someone born in your city drop them on the ground, but the process hard-core hate a quick question before we we find out how you got where you are today. Your video style that the tone, the feel, the kind of looking off at an angle which is characteristic.
David would have that develop well at the kind of several thing before it is part of the tone that actually coming out and kind of naturally like that but years ago when when I was discussing Islam with my friend Beulah I I learned over time that Muslims pay attention to sort of approaches that we wouldn't think a menu you know we would think like that. The nights are you are and the calmer you are, and so on. The more people are going to listen to you because we we value those kinds of things, but I found out that Muslims are paying more attention to other things like how confident you are how aggressive you are, how fearless you are and those of the kind of think they're there looking for and the end of it happened we are to be on our watching a debate between William Ln., Craig and Jamaal about a week and and Dr. Craig just crushed about a week.
I mean everything about it. We said Craig refuted and bodily couldn't risk could refute anything Craig said so in the Beulah eyes when he was still a Muslim are watching this and I'm I'm really looking forward to the Beals input because he's really smart week. That was a part in the debate where bodily got frustrated and flustered even started yelling until we finish watching this debate and try saying ability think that abatement is will bodily are all obviously want you watching here what you what what you watching and it took a while to sort of unpack that button to Beale eventually broke everything down for me when when we see a debater become angry and flustered and frustrated and start yelling. We think you lost, you know you're losing your desperate that's why you're angry and Christian debaters calm because he knows he's winning. Whereas Mobile within a Turk was interpreting interpreting it as the Muslim is yelling because he's passionate for the truth because he so confident that he is right because he has such great evidence for what he believed and therefore him yelling is actually is actually a sign that he's right, whereas Craig, the Christian debaters calm because deep down he doesn't even really believe what you think he knows that it is or interpreting things completely differently and so just over time interacting with more and more muscles I noticed there are more inclined to listen.
If yours is just come right out the hotel and I will find out about this is like will be right back with Dr. David would know he doesn't yell on his videos but is confident a very confident her plan and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown today. Dr. Wood especially on debates with atheists and Muslims will get into that some specifics. If you have a comment or question.
If you differ with him would like the opportunity to speak with him directly, 8663 for 87884 so David, when I was a teenager I had a couple years of real serious rebellion was a heavy drug user and my testimonies literally from LSD to PhD and the most shameful thing that I did during those years of heavy drug use was a number of occasions actually stole money from my father to my lasting shame, but reading reading your story you and will further than that. So tell me about you David before you knew the Lord well I think it that there are probably a lot of instances that are somewhat similar to this in terms of young people who grow up with some sort of psychological problem, but don't know what what it is they haven't been officially diagnosed and so they have no idea what what kind of problems they have and I mean I grew up and I was later that was eventually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, which is that that's what social path and fight and psychopath are but I do know that when I was growing up, I just noticed I'm starting when I was like five years old that I didn't react the same way when bad things happen when something would die to start off with like pets or something dying in and eventually friends dying and so on, and it is real. I had, I have no reaction other people are crying their eyeballs out and are depressed. And I mean I don't even have so much is like a bad feeling about that… Okay let me go in a complete video games or something like that food is no reaction and and but I didn't know that that that there is actually know that actually clinically diagnosable problem.
I thought I just knew I was different and I explained it in the head with figure out why I was different. I concluded that I had that I had evolve to a higher stage of of humanity that I have other people are are controlled by their emotions and I had gone to a higher stage where under no pure reason and logic and audit turned out to be 12. Much later, but didn't find out until I don't combat the dotage my going to yet. Yes, so Elsa what would happen with what was kind of the that the real Saul, which ended you up in serious condition.
Well it is what it was a few steps may not start again if you if you're convinced you become convinced that your like the next stage of human evolution and unfortunately I was reading crime and punishment around the same time with Raskolnikov giving effective Superman. Some people just don't have to live by the moral standards that that society lays down and I concluded that was me and there is this one time, and I'll sort of when everything finally clicked. I was I was running from the police in the middle the night after stealing a bunch of stuff breaking the store and I ended up running through the swimming across the river running through the woods and I came out and in someone's backyard and there was a big garden in front of me and I started to walk around the garden. Just because you know I need to get away from the police were chasing me. But you know that you wanted to go around the person garden. I just stopped and thought why my walking around this person garden. Why would I even show that basic level of respect to someone's property and so I I proceeded to stop my way through the garden and something clicked right then that I don't have to follow any of societies rules on on anything negative this amazing rush of freedom like my mind had been polluted all my life by telling me David. You need to show respect you need to do certain things, and that by doing the opposite of what I've been told that I would like like cleansing myself out of of this pollution emitted been put into me by society and that went on and on and on and eventually of course I took it as far as I could I could possibly go with it. I decided to kill my dad that was like to me going to be the the ultimate just purging myself of anything.
I had been taught was that I had to do any sort of rules. I was told that I had to follow my society so a tech my dad with a hammer in them in the head. Seven or eight times left them for dead.that he was dead turned out that someone found him later and took him to hospital and hospital air settled I hear is his injuries are too severe, but took him to another hospital.
They had a world champion neurosurgeon there and catch them up and at first I was put in a mental hospital and later jail eventually went to. You went to the trial went to went to prison and so on so so you you end up doing prison you are diagnosed with a condition that would put you in the class of the sociopath. You end up with a PhD in philosophy from Fordham University married four great kids and very productive in the kingdom of God sharing the gospel in a reasoned way what happened, how did you like change so dramatically. While I was in jail in the doorman we would just that there be fights all the time and the negative people playing cards and so on and there was that there was a Christian in the in the dorm.
There with us and he was he was an interesting fellow. He turned himself in for 21 felonies if you become a Christian and went to the police and confessed everything he'd ever done to make sure I was with 21 felonies Linda initially because when the wind would be a fight. He wouldn't he would watch it and later I would estimate that they went right into my beverage watching the fight that I was praying that would stop and Phyllis is no kind of not ordinary sort of guy you'd be running into in in in jail and that one day he was reading his Bible and I walked up to him and I said you know what you are reading the Bible and reading the Bible because you're born in the United States. If you been born anywhere else you believe in something else. If you been born in China you be a Buddhist if you been born in India, you'd be a Hindu if you been born in Saudi Arabia to be a Muslim because people like you believe whatever you're told to believe and that was just silly because you know in terms of where the universe came from and how light formed.
I believe everything that I was taught and never occurred to get a really up to really question those things and so there is a consistency problem but if something interesting happened is this guy's name is Randy. He just tore me to pieces and it wasn't by light overwhelmingly with facts or something. It was just he started questioning things.
I would say where did I get that from why do I believe that sort of thing and I over time, I started realizing I have no reason for any of these things that I just taken as is obviously true because I'd absorbed them over time. And so we Randy. I eventually got into a fasting battle where with you in trying to battle me just he would harass for long periods of time, like seven days at a time, and I would go more just to be there because I couldn't and I wasn't beating in arguments or anything and affected so much about 250 pounds I get down about 150 pounds bad for a guy who's 6 foot three and a stuck me in and I isolated camera stealthily can watch me the photos try to kill myself and try to be the Christian ethic of trying to quantify myself to death and it was back there that I really started wrestling with a lot of issues started thinking about design in the universe and where my belief that got me and my really the greatest person in the world is reading about Jesus. At the same time to Take kept hitting me as I'm reading this guy is obviously better than me.
Why do I think that I'm the ultimate stage of human evolution and end it was just going through lots of lots of the water sources.
Eventually it got to the point where I realize what what what what am I thinking that I'm the best person unlike the worst person I mean I'm in here for for bashing my deadheading with a hammer.
I'm starving to death. People bring me food every day and I'm starving it I can't stand up without falling over. Because I haven't eaten so long. What do I mean that I'm the best and sort of came upon some sort of simple versions of basic Christian arguments like the design argument and the moral argument and under court that the resurrection was what got me to thinking that that that maybe we have a miracle on her hands.
IIII always explain Christianity by by thinking that the disciples just wanted Jesus message to go on until after he died.
He said he rose from the dead and found out how these guys died and he no longer made sense to me you can do can die for something that's false. But you have to believe in what you're going to have to leave believe it to these guys could have been making it up. So why did all these guys conclude that Jesus said and risen from the dead, and that sort of all came together because when I went and start thinking that I'm the worst person in the world, not the best and then you start thinking well you dreamt I'm stuck like I'm stuck like this awful sort of person with all these problems and really violent or there someone out there who can help with people like me and we start thinking like that I think about an inch away from becoming a Christian because you look down through history who has the ability of anyone in history to this take horribly messed up dysfunctional people and do something with them you get Jesus and and he's the one. And so I wasn't I wasn't sure that Christianity was true but I was I was I was intrigued enough with various evidences in the resurrection to to thinking maybe I need to. Maybe I need to start Frank's house. I prayed and God hazy to do anything with me. You're welcome to it was the kind of sinner's prayer and got us and everything looked different, and so that was the beginning extraordinary mercy of God into my transformation. New birth absolutely gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends you not understand why Jesus died on the cross. If we don't understand our need for a Savior we don't understand the gospel sentiment of just adding Jesus into have a better life.
It's that we are lost without him. He dies for our sins. If he doesn't die for our sins we die for our sins we can find mercy and new life in him that's exactly happened to my guest.
Dr. David would under conviction of sin.
In prison, recognizing he needed a Savior so sedated once everything looks new. You been born again, let's let's fast-forward out of prison now in school. What happens that significant on your journey in any significant roommate that you had, I would join the speech and debate team. When I got I got out, went to college and we went on a trip you actually go and competed other schools and stuff and I ended up sharing a hotel room with Bill Qureshi and I had I had lots of discussions with Muslims in in prison but I never had a chance really study the original note that the early movement. Sources don't have don't have access to them, but when I was in a hotel room with Mobile I was over on my bed praying that God if you want me to talk to this guy. Please let him start it. I want people calling me in a bigot or hatemonger for getting into an argument with a Muslim or something like that and so I prayed. So you please let him start it now if if the anyone says hey why you argument that Muslim then I can say well you started and anyway shortly after I prayed for God to let Mobile started Mobile so so are you a hard-core Christian is also the reading my Bible my butt on my bed and I said yes I am and that weekend we spent wind up staying up all night. One of the nights that weekend discussing Islam and Christianity in Libya went through all of his beliefs about Mohammed and the Quran of the Bible and Jesus and so on, and he finished his presentation and I said I have a question for you if you if you're wrong you want to know it lot, but I talked ACS to say no right. I asked Casey if you hate you if you're wrong you want to know what I had atheists say now I'd rather just one believing what I believe.
But the bill said yes and no. He said yes. I want to know the truth about God, but but no, because it would destroy my family and the better part of them. Of course, was the part that that he would one know the truth about God, so we ended up spending several years discussing at first, we focused on the Bible and the reliability. The New Testament and whether Jesus died on the cross and the resurrection and the deity of Christ, and so on.
And we spent probably first two years discussing those things and quickly. We were serious we would go debate.
We read books we'd we write down our arguments and sit down and go through go through them.
Point by point and so on and eventually started going through the Muslim arguments and started taking more critical look at those and that Netflix are really going to Muslim sources in the bill. Give me argument for Islam in my first question will be what was the source. Where do I get this story since I started buying Muslim sources like the heel Bukhari and Fahim Islam and him in a sock and so on. Going through those minutes are bringing going back to Mobile with point with things that he did know from the sources the liniment you're quoting for heel Bukhari to defend this point about Mohammed look what it also says in the same source are quoting.
You didn't tell me this, and even tell me because he didn't know it because it brings a been filtered for him by his leaders and so anyway, we would spend years going through the sources and eventually to be a distal point where he's just resisting in every way.
Unfortunately, after that he started having like dreams telling him to leave Islam and the Buell eventually left Islam became a Christian and I actually thought cool my my friend Kristin now so I'm done with Islam because the only reason I was studying Islam is that my best friend of the Christian if he been a Buddhist that I would've been studying Buddhism and so he became a Christian I thought I was done, but then it was eventually Muslims who started challenging us to debate. They really don't like it if someone leave Islam so they wanted to expose Mobile and they wanted me on stage as well because they wanted to show everyone that I'm stupid.
I don't know what I'm talking about. Therefore, the Buell stupid. He should have been listening to me and therefore other people shouldn't listen to what we say about Islam and Pharaoh still plagued her for the first several debates. I really thought you know II can get away from this very soon I can get back to dealing with a few subjection. That's what that was my background. That's what I was more interested in, it was really over. Over time, watching stand that the Buell took when when and if everything went wrong unit with with family and everyone else in having to give up so much watching the stand that he took. I realize your muscles make really cool Christians because they have to go through so much more in order to in order to believe in Jesus you know III could've told my parents that I become a Martian boot if they would've cared all that much, but you know to much bigger deal for Muslims, and so they have to really know why they believe what they believe if they're going to convert the Buell he became a Christian and is somewhat over time. Like I just realized there are lots of lots of Christian apologists were dealing with with a few of them and and not a lot were dealing with Islam and maybe instead of doing what I'm most interested in, or what I know something from my background. I need to do just what what I think is needed right now. I think the need to be people dealing with the topic of it of Islam and holding my hands on my desk a copy of the Army's translation of the life of Mohammed the translation of a been discussed. Sarah Russell, what, what's what impacted this book have on you reading it.
I had I had my one of my on my undergraduate degrees was in philosophy but it was with an emphasis in religious studies and so I study various religions as as part of my degree and extent. I took courses in Islam. It was taught by Muslim and we were given books to read and actually wrote a paper on how what a wonderful job Mohammed did in Arabia because I was reading all these modern books on Mohammed and he really sounded like like a great guy reading the books for class and going back to him in a sock which is our earliest detailed biographical source on the life of Mohammed. It's that you get a completely different picture than when and what you get from modern sources and for someone like for someone like the Buell, the Mohammed he hears about when is at home or when he's in the mosque Mohammed that he hears about is completely different from the Mohammed we read about in Islam's earliest sources and so I started going to going to Mobile with with passages from it in a sock a look at this is the earliest source look at the things he did look at this right here and he like like many Muslims will reject the source. He said don't come don't come to me within a sock come to me only with the heel Bukhari is the him Muslims and white if interesting.
If the heel Bukhari is a Muslim, or much later source and throw out the earliest source and go with leader sources big event like with earliest sources say. And cells are going to be with the leader sources and even then he eventually had to start rejecting things because it was just it it was it was so different from what he'd been taught about Mohammed and he really liked the Mohammed that he been raised to believe in. But in this. This is true for for almost every any Muslim you run into. They have this mental picture of Mohammed based on the information it's been filtered for the that's why support for us to learn with the sources so they can make a more informed decision about how really is the difference between the gospel, faith and the faith of Muslims is the difference between Jesus and Mohammed will be right back.
It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown and voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 866343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown have a question would 866-34-TRUTH 7884 David what's the best place for folks to follow you online a website YouTube channel. Would you like to direct them and David were on you to get a bunch of videos that are angry at me and responding to me, but that the contract and David what you get my channel and on YouTube okay great that that works well enough yet. You'll find out the me take stands on this. You have videos by folks that don't like it wants me to do the good thing is a people waking up quite solicitous about Islam for a moment if the majority of Muslims worldwide or not like ISIS are not like Al Qaeda and in their mind they yeah they they want us wanted to rule the world to take over the world in of the believe is the right faith. But they have a more idealistic view of Mohammed. They think of them is the perfect man, and even nonviolent and humbling and all these other things and that to them as authentic Islam and they they genuinely believe it's a religion of peace is that not really Islam, or is that the development of Islam that doesn't reflect the original sources cannot can truly be called Islam, if perhaps the majority of Muslims worldwide ascribe to this, even though it's not in harmony with the real Mohammed even even if every single Muslim on the planet rejected something about Mohammed that would have nothing to do with whether that's the truth about Mohammed like that if every Muslim in the world believe something about Mohammed or if every Muslim in the world reject something about Mohammed the truth about Mohammed Ali lay down it if it people to today's beliefs do not affect what what Mohammed what is same thing with Christianity, a Christian image of every Christian in the world tomorrow decided that Jesus didn't die on the cross.
That way I wouldn't affect whether Jesus died on the cross, and fill it if is what you what you have is coming. Islam means submission night Islam know the word Islam means submission and this doesn't just mean that you have to submit to God if if if Islam just meant you, you have to submit to God than Christians and Jews would agree with with Muslims. Of course we have to submit to God. Islam doesn't doesn't just tell you that you must submit to God. It tells you how you submit to God and you submit to God by unquestioningly obeying the commands and decisions of a law and Mohammed and is important to keep in mind that part of submission part of Islamic submission is submitting to Mohammed this come straight out of the Quran will read your chapter 4 verse 65, a law says, but no by your Lord, they can have no faith that you can of Muslims can have no faith by your Lord, they can have no faith until they make you Mohammed judge and all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions and accept them with full submission. So this thing you have no faith as that you have no real Muslim faith.
Unless you make Mohammed judge in all disputes and you have no resistance against Mohammed's decision until based on this passage. If you are aware of things Mohammed said anything I don't really like that don't have real Islamic faith. So this is kind of one sort of the extreme yeah this is the sort of passage that Isis would go to and say you see all these guys all these Muslims were killing. It's because they're hypocrites and apostates because they don't that the rejecting things Mohammed said you have other passages from Mohammed saying that if you recite the shahada you're Muslim so if you recite, you know, there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger, then you're Muslim. If you keep the five pillars. You're Muslim.
If you if you believe that the six articles of faith.
You're Muslim you have passages that say this so there is a sort of depends on what your focus is here on whether something will will count as whether you are a true Muslim.
Depending on what you believe or don't believe that a separate question of what God is our comebacks… The question is possible to separate Islam is religious faith from Islam is a political and legal system right that the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown joining us friends David would David before I get to the political question in in my years of Semitic studies at three years of classical Arabic, so I fully understand that when someone says Islam means peace note note doesn't may be the same route Salama but it's the fourth form of the verb than a noun derived from that and it did means submission. Anyone that knows Arabic knows that. So if you see a publication put out by Muslims that Muslim leaders are not just mean somebody on the streets. It's got an opinion would put out by the local mosque and it says Islam is the religion of peace and the word Islam means peace. It is that in your mind, willful deception, is there any way that anyone who knows Arabic could make that mistake. I don't see how but there is a fact that there are lots of Muslims who are out promoting Islam and defending Islam and saying things who don't really know what you're talking about an appeal and I went to appointment this meeting that the international Society of Islamic Society of North America which the meeting we went to that there Dawa task force meeting so there actually meeting in there to discuss how to use our youth.
Islamic apologetics and Mobile asked the leader he asked after the meeting he went to the leader and said hey you know you're saying that the Quran is been perfectly preserved. What you do with people like him and Massoud who didn't agree with the number of chapters that are in the ground today or by Ivan Cobb, who didn't agree with the number with the chapters that are in the ground that what you do if he and the guy goes never heard of any of these people I meet with the these guys are like central figures in the early Muslim sources. This guy has has no idea who they are and I didn't get. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to deceive us.
It was just really doesn't he really doesn't know what he's talking about and so it's always possible that muscle makes a pamphlet or put something out says Islam means peace. The word Islam means peace because they've heard that they've never investigated it, but it's also perfectly possible that that the Muslims trying to deceive people. And that's kind of the problem is when we when we see this when we see false claims and Islam allows false claims in certain situations. We kind of don't know if this person is not well informed or the person actually trying to deceive have to dig a little bit deeper to try and figure it out yet and instantly there are many sincere Muslims that are misinformed and many sincere Muslims who have studied issues for years and are experts in legal issues and philosophical issues language in the memorized Trenton and others that will mostly deceive the reason I brought it up is that I downloaded the 50 feet 55 page document from mosques in England saying that Islam is not religion of terror terrorism is not Islam, and it has quote after quote after quote from original sources that would back the position and and they were denouncing the terrorism being done in the name Islam, which of course is is praiseworthy. You want them to do that but the very first paragraph said that Islam means peace on earth.
All how in the world could they do them and get quote after quote from Arabic sources and it it it does it does make you, you wonder, but that the question then, as we go back to the original life of Mohammed as we see that Islam spread with the sword. And yes, there was a message of monotheism and turning from idolatry and things like that and in an ethical lifestyle. A lot of it barred from Julius and that Mohammed called for but it expanded by the sword in it. It does have a legal system with it. Can you separate Islam the religion from Islam, a political legal system, we can separate things in our and our mind and we can separate them sort of in practice, but there's no concept of that in an Islam. Islam is meant to be the sort of comprehensive system where again the Islam means submission what that would were you submitting to your submitting to God, why are you submitting to God, you're submitting to God by obeying his commands and the commands of Mohammed within the question is what are the commands of God and Mohammed well. That includes things that Muslims have to do things you know like like saying that their daily prayers and fasting during the month of Ramadan and taken the pilgrimage to Mecca and giving alms and so on include things that are required of Muslims, but the difference between Islam and other religious systems out there is that Islam has rules for the unbelievers as well be unbelievers have to have to submit if you're Christian or Jew you have you have the right to pay the Jews you and acknowledgment of your inferiority, your inferior status in society and in religion and continue practicing your Judaism or your area Christianity. Although your rights are limited. You can't just go out and and preach the gospel to the right Muslims were invited but and and so those of the restrictions placed on us. People like pagans, or atheist have it even worse, they have to convert or die and so submission here you submit to lawn Mohammed as a Muslim you you do certain things, but some of the things that you are to do is to subjugate other groups and other people so that you can enforce all of the commands of the law, and Mohammed himself. That's where politics comes in and that's why even though you might have individual Muslims or Muslim communities or you have Muslims in certain and in a certain status in society where they're not able to subjugate other people. If that's the case if they're not able to impose Islamic law and other people they don't have to until the until the situation arises where they are able, but the goal is all is is ultimately the subjugation of other people in the establishment of of Islamic rule over the entire world is so in short we could say that while Islam bring subjugation the gospel brings liberation and speaking of liberation, David here. So some of the fruit of your ministry. Jennifer from Queens. How does your life intersect with David would hi, thank you online. I learned about and I went back I ever lining it out then and my brother in the morning and then I did Google and I think and I and I found your video, why am I and there I began my journey to learn more about and learn more about you. I know I'm no longer my pending outback church and seven years ago on I became upset by video and I indicated you, my friend and now our environment from Lebanon and Acton. Do I have to be baptized again and also my friend, my one mankind while at morning. I know that not the right church and I followed. I know either mentoring when out. And if I do have to be baptized again. Where do I go, let it right church the right way to do it all. Thank you for certain, thanks for the encouragement and and glad glad I could help.
I'm by no means an expert and in baptism so so I'll share my thoughts and then Dr. Brown can correct can correct me if if I'm wrong, but I would figure you should certainly be baptized again and in an Orthodox Christian church.
As far as you know the specifics you know in in in the in the ancient world. Baptism was noted. The word means basically to dunk so yeah yeah so I would say you find a good church that is the that is preaching a true gospel and that is going to to dunk you and in the name of that the father the son and the Holy Spirit, and, and, but, by the way, I guy go to church in Queens Village of official or not you want to swing my church with me your you're welcome to David that I would rather not find the way I shared afterwards but you are to tell you a Jennifer, you stay there. We get to my next break in a minute or two. David will tell Howard where he goes to church in Queens and then you could know that, but a Jennifer sienna Baptist Church, then you're obviously hearing the basics of the gospel and they believe in baptizing believers so next opportunity you have get baptized and and I would make clear hey I was a Mormon came to know Jesus.
Now following him and the reason you wanted it is you should look at it is have to look at it is get to this is a great opportunity for you to make a public declaration of your faith and Romans six it symbolizes you dying to sin and rising in new life and for your Baptist friend by all of for your former Muslim friend, by all means the same thing public testimony symbolizing the cleansing of the conscience that the washing away of sin the dying to the old you go down with the old you come up in brand-new life and it it's powerful it's spiritual, it's God glorifying, so I would just ask the leadership in that church if it's a Baptist Church you assume there that your home there preaching the gospel and in the fundamentals are being emphasized there and in ultimately as long as it's with other believers that hold to the fundamentals of the faith your good nose is no perfect church on earth or perfect environment to be baptized in. It's just holding to the fundamentals. As David said, and I'm assuming if you're in a Baptist Church that would be the case. I talked to the leaders and say hey I want to be baptized and what I need to give testimony be known and shared the same with your philosopher and I think the encouragement difference to others in the body, especially place a clean so many Muslims.
They are people of other faiths.
So many to reach out to white steroids or Jennifer Howard will let you know where David goes to church with respect the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution there again is Dr. Michael Brown with you having your videos when I looked at immediately after one of the horrific terror attacks in France was talking about the particular verse of the Quran and did it say that you could kill unbelievers and of of God of commentary on my desk of new edition of Quran with with lots of commentaries in one place and will go through all the application and Mohammed in his warring days. It was then what is so we would parallel Otilio Joshua kill the Canaanites, but that was then versus now and and it David and in this particular video you were explaining that there can be an Islamic justification that that people are doing could harm in the land that someone ambiguous as to what that actually means that they they could be killed. They could be put to death by Muslim so what's the rationale that some of these terrorist use it it's it's not like saying I went out and in committed suicide because I read the Judas did it.
And Jesus said do likewise is is not based on taking something out of the Bible and twisting it space and taking something of the Craun in a somewhat consistent fashion and carrying it out violently today. The massive death.
While there are many differences, but there's a massive difference between the Bible and the Quran and other sources when it comes to the issue of violence. Yes, you can point to no fighting the Canaanites and and things like that. But if you if you ask yourself, hey, if I read this book from beginning to end. What are the final marching orders for the Christians.
In other words, what are the commands that are actually directed towards me while I'm not commanded to go find any Canaanites that that's that's that's part of specific covenant. There, I'm commanded to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, strength, love my neighbor as myself.
Love even my enemies to it. As far as possible, live in peace with all men. These are the commands that are actually directed to us as our final marching orders is that as the things we are supposed to do in Islam. It's it's actually somewhat reverse that the peaceful passages that Muslims quote there is no compulsion in religion you know if you if you have a dispute with an unbeliever. Then you say to you, be your religion into me be my religion. These are not the final marching orders either from different different.
In Islamic history.
But when you read the Quran from beginning to end and 14 the mind that the Craun is not arranged chronologically have to go to outside sources to to put it in order. But when you read the Quran in the correct order of revelations it's the final marching orders. The final take away message is sort nine of the last major syrup revealed and this is where you have 39 verse 29 fight those who do not believe in a lot. This is where you have so many different passages both directed towards Mohammed lecture nine verse 73 where Mohammed is commanded to wage jihad not only against unbelievers but also against hypocrites. Muslims who are claiming to be Muslims but aren't fully submitted to his command that's directed towards Mohammed fight not only unbelievers but also hypocrite and so anyway for people wanting to know why I fistfights other Muslims that's that's part of the commander chapter 9 verse 120 30 you who believe, like those of the unbelievers were near to you and let them find in your heart if you had earlier commands in the Quran to fight in self-defense to fight people who are attacking you to fight aggressors or oppressors with the final marching orders over and over again are about fighting people based on what they believe, and so the difference tween the Quran the Bible is if you if you read both books beginning to end. The final mark the final take away message toward how your how you are to interact with with unbelievers are are very different, and in Christianity you you you don't go out and violently subjugate people in the name of Christ. If there was ever a time to defend Christ with a sword. It was in the garden and Jesus are counted with put your sword away in Islam. The final marching orders. The final take away message is that you have to. When you're able violently subjugate unbelievers in the name of Allah. If you're not able, then you can promote a message of peace to protect the Muslim community, but the goal again is the subjugation of the world.
Mohammed himself said that he been shown by a law that the world would be subjugated to the authority of the Muslim community. And so that's the goal that's that's to be that that Muslims are to strive for.
Again, just to be clear when because I pointed out that as a Muslim. If you are not in a position to subjugate the world. You are your let your to you. You were to promote a message of peace and tolerance just to be clear, I'm not saying that if a Muslim tells you that Islam is a religion of peace is deceiving you that most of my totally believe that there comes a Muslims in the West and around the world who sincerely believe that Islam is a religion of peace but going back to what we said earlier, the problem is since Islam allows Muslims to promote a message of peace, even if they want to establish Islamic rule over the entire world.
You kind of don't know when a Muslim tells you Islam's religion of peace whether he sincerely believes that, or if he's actually practicing Islamic practice called the Kia yet so it's it's you. If you develop a relationship with someone watch their life over. If you shoot anyone else. You can you can get an idea we can all be deceiving, be deceived by a pastor that's living in sin, but just on the surface of it. That's the point that it could be a sincere belief and I've got to know Muslims in an some of our folks serving in different parts of the of the Muslim world grants for ministry school.
They know Muslims that are appalled by the violence and and hated on the other hand they're afraid to say publicly because they know what happened to them in an would you say it's an oversimplification. If we said that whereas Mohammed killed his enemies. Jesus died for his enemies. Mohammed Mohammed vomited all kinds of things but that that is that is a world of difference in and even notes for some of their last words Jesus on the cross and father forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.
Mohammed died calling Don allows curses on Jews and Christians so there there. These are two radically different kind of individual here yeah and and friends if if you question this. If you listening.
We we know many of you listen in your Muslims and you difference just about to the sources to to that to the earliest sources to the Craun in the earliest life of Mohammed and just see us is that the model man is that the perfect man is is is that the one whom you want to emulate. You want to raise your children to emulate and then take some time to find out who Jesus is.
Since you do believe in Jesus you believe that he's important you believe is a prophet just take some time to to read his actual words and enter read of front from people at right there eyewitnesses people that knew him and live with him read his actual words.
Read the story of of his life. Then compare it prayerfully and ultimately that was a key saying and that the transformation of the life of novel creation of your creation. After years of interaction with David would rent again friends to find out more about David's videos and they are they are entertaining and informative. Go over to YouTube and just type in David would, and I think you'll you'll get a kick out of some of the videos that are not too friendly towards him. I just reminder posting new articles day and night website*Brown.org, as well as new videos roller to help you minister to you and gift of any size this month got a great book were sending you out.
Culture shock. So find out more good asked Dr. Brown.org or what an amazing testimony. What a great ministry talking with apologist David would stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.
That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown I'm speaking today can apologist David would this PhD in philosophy from Fordham University. He was in jail as a young man for the attempted murder of his father. He was as antisocial behavior and personalities could be in prison, he met the Lord was transformed and set a great ministry preaching the gospel through debate and dialogue with Muslims with ACS and there's a lot that we can learn along the way, interacting with David great to have you on the air with us today. David let me ask you this. You've done what 4050+ moderate debate so far is that right think I'm getting close to 60 okay great and primarily with Muslims and atheists okay in my years of debating rabbis and interacting with religious Jewish community. I've come to know some tremendously sincere men some amazing families.
Some people who are deeply devoted highly ethical God-fearing in so many ways and yet I would say so near and yet so far.
Still lost still need of a Savior over the years. Debating Muslims interact with Muslims. Have you found the same in the Muslim community will absolutely remain. That's why no, I became best friends with with W Qureshi in college we had we had a lot of the same values. We ended up hanging out together so much because we would be away on a school trip and the other students on the team would want to go go out clubbing or they would be doing drugs or something like that to go out drinking and we didn't want to. So we would end up over and over again. Trip after trip and up hanging out in the hotel room together while everyone else is out going to club or something like that. So we had we had we had a lot of shared values we had we had in a different, different beliefs, but we had a lot of the same old same values in this to be true of lots of lots of Muslims out there know they need the muscles are people who believe in God believe that they were created believe that there created for a purpose believe that God sent messengers into the world of given us instruction.
Muslims is hoarse with what the Quran says that Muslims are required to believe that that God gave Jews revelation that God gave Christians revelation and so we have we have certain you know that a certain level of of of connection there and really this can this can be distribute positively or negatively because there there.
People say just focus on the similarities and and not on the not on the disagreement you notice just focus on on and of things we hold in common and that the disagreements aren't unimportant, but any of the disagreements are like the core of the Christian gospel that when the apostles went out, started preaching, they always emphasize Jesus is Lord. He died on the cross for since he rose from the dead and so fast that if elevator take away message that needs to be our take away message as well.
But those of the ghost of the beat the areas where Islam disagrees with us.
So in Islam, Jesus didn't die in across percent fee. He didn't rise from the dead, and he certainly isn't Lord. In Islam, and so as for the Bible is concerned, we we should be addressing this issue. So anyway this is for is why those that the areas of agreement are a kind of a blessing and a curse. There a lot of their a lot of Christians are thinking okay we don't need to really focus much on it on Muslims because you know that they they already believe in God America believe in Jesus and you very believe in Scriptures and so on.
But you really know if those areas of agreement that can bind us to help bind us together in friendships and computer kind of a springboard into you know in further discussion because if you're talking to atheists nowadays.
You might have absolutely nothing in common ideologically with the thesis of your thoughts, as always please God save the world that Jesus is the Messiah Jesus miracles. Lots of common ground there. Then go on and say hey this guy is obviously very important. Maybe we should want to learn all the truth about life that her plan and gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown all him to watch his audios or what he's doing it debate and dialogue, just go to YouTube and search for David. Would you like to call 866-34-TRUTH 866-348-7884 David is the God of the Bible the same being same personality, same character as the God of the Quran.
Well, that there are some errors from their similarities because Mohammed he is or rebels against his own culture and and that in the seventh century Arabia, the alternative to polytheism was not atheism.
The alternative to polytheism with monotheism. Mohammed aligned himself with with the Jews and the Christians and begin to put themselves in the same line as as the biblical biblical prophets and so he's taking an empty even in his earlier revelations, it is clear that he takes the Jews especially as authorities in matters of religion are easy been told by a law.
If you doubt the revelations were given to you. Ask the people of the book that the people read the book before you fill Mohammed only confirm his revelations by making sure that they line up with the revelations of Jews and Christians so others obviously going to be plenty of of similarities there, but there there are significant differences as well. Both Jews and Christians believe that God is our our heavenly father and in Islam God is a father to know what the highest relationship you can have with a law according to the Quran is a slave to master the kind of relationship. The God of the Quran has no love for unbelievers. You have to love God first and then he can he can respond to your love with his love and this is the sort of love that Jesus condemns in Matthew five if you only love those who love you, you know, how are you better than the tax collectors and sinners and Italy ages is completely different from the gospel message where we love God because God loved us first unit we were we were yet sinners. When God saved us so so very different and of course if you're talking about, father, son and Holy Spirit men in the Quran denies this be the Quran does not accurately understand what Christians mean by the doctrine of the Trinity, tell you if you have again some some similarities there, but you do have significant differences both in the nature and character of God, yeah, and it is across courses of study so that the opening chapter in this is recited through the day, God's describe this arrest. My Rahim so the merciful and compassionate and it says elsewhere for input to one of that that he is oft relenting to the one that is off repenting a laws oft relenting and yet most of this, there has assurance of forgiveness of sins they could they could practice all the pillars of Islam and then they could be absolutely devout and devoted and yet they do not know that they know that they'll end up in paradise versus hell correct. Yet even even Mohammed himself didn't have didn't have assurance of salvation.
He was told to say that he didn't know what a law would do with him and that the context. There was a wonderful nice Muslim who died and limited only to.
He's in paradise now moment to let you know that and she's like well if if he if he if he doesn't have if you haven't have salvation, then, who does Mohammed said I don't even know it allows going to do with me and so that that's that's that has become kind of someone. This lack of assurance has been part of the driving force for jihad because supposedly if you if you lay down your if you your martyr than you do have assurance of salvation right in initially say the context dying and what is this ability and in in the path of Allah would meaning in war so it's a theoretically you were being attacked your Muslim country being attacked and you die in war for your country and for loss that would guarantee the world to come. In that regard she paradise was obvious he been taken as far as if you blow yourself up with a suicide vest and kill little children that somehow you're getting M and S how far the thing has been taken, but the idea that there is no assurance that that is that is something that that many people attracted to Islam. Don't know and I was in a meeting once with some Christians were considering his lawn and sat set in the home with the imam. Everyone was sitting around talking. So I asked him I said so your devout decision gas and try to do that. I said but you live by the PIA. I said so when you die your shirts all know enough Effect of the Christians there were pretty shook up hate question just posted on Twitter, please explain to Kia and when Muslims can use it.
So the whole idea that deceit can be practiced in certain legitimate circumstances.
You said early earlier.
It's hard to know if someone is sincerely saying something or if there if you don't know the middle right there. Sincerely, representing Islam is a religion of peace and that's what they believe or if they are at denying the truth just for political purposes, or are there rules as to when it can and can't be used because there there are people who anytime a Muslim says something they think the Mohammed lying to them and they heard there's a doctrine called to Kia where Muslims can live to unbelievers and so on. A enema from sources that if it is applied in an certain situation that the one that many Muslims are familiar with is if they are if they're being threatened with death so someone says Hayward were were here were killing Muslims and are you a Muslim. According to the Quran.
Chapter 16 verse 106 a Muslim can deny that he is a Muslim. He can even curse Mohammed in that situation.
If you want in order to protect himself from being killed or from persecution. So that is that is a version that many Muslims are familiar with, but it's the it's applied in a bit different situation when Muslims are not able to subjugate unbelievers that the Quran promotes her hostility towards unbelievers and the Quran says not to be friends with Jews or Christians not to Jews or Christians as friends there front of each other, but there there is an exception and that if you need to protect yourself from unbelievers by being friendly towards another. If you're in an area where you can't subjugate the unbelievers and they they outnumber you. You as a Muslim, have been told to finally subjugate them. What you supposed to do here. Well, that the Quran does allow you in that situation to act friendly toward them and just be. Just be clear once again. Before anyone get the wrong idea when I say that Muslims are allowed to pretend to be friendly even when they're not. I'm not saying that when a Muslim is friendly toward you.
He's trying to deceive you again. Lots of Muslims are sincerely believe that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance nobody else that were talking about what Islam teaches here, not what the motivations of your Muslim friend.chapter 3 verse 20 the Quran says the law says let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends and preference to believers of the commanders don't have disbelievers as friend says, who so do if that has no connection with a law though you have no connection with a lot. You take unbelievers that your friends but there's an exception because unless it be that you but guard yourself against them, taking as it were security so you're not really friendly toward them.
You are pretending to be friendly because you don't want these guys thinking your bunch of jerks and then coming after you, and in the in the commentaries we find what Mohammed's companions said about this. So, in that anyone can look us up to go to the top fear of him to fear where he gives a commentary on this person shows what Mohammed companions thought about it so him and get your comments on chapter 3 verse 28, a law prohibiting his believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers or to take them as comrades, with whom they develop friendships rather than the believers allow warned against such behavior when he said, and whoever does that will never be helped by a law in any way, meaning whoever commits this act that a lot has prohibited and Allah will discard them and then commenting on the unless you fear a danger for from them, which is where we which uses the word to Kia meaning except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers in this case. Such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly but never inwardly L. Bukhari recorded that up… Said we smile in the face of some people. Although our hearts curse them. Bukhari said that Hassan said to Kia is allowed until the day of resurrection.
So here him to fear this image of theater's most respected Muslim commentator of all time.
Any sites all Bukhari who is the most respected collector of all time and he fights to companions of Mohammed a Bedard and-go talk about the doctrine of the Kia we smile in their faces while cursing them in our hearts so on. On the one hand, as far as to Kia you have. If your life is actually being threatened as a sort of your throat Hayward in a kill you, then you can deny your Islamic faith. But this insert three verse 28. This is not about denying the Muslim faith. It's about denying your intentions you want to subjugate the unbelievers you hate them, you despise them. No intentions of these friends tend to be friendly orders to guard yourselves against them so again that you know this is why the various things but as far as what is that what is according to the Quran audit and I just want you to comment how we respond to that little taking call stated, I will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown part of the line of fire broadcasted, this is Michael Brown I am with my guest. Christian apologist David would and for those wondering again in terms of interrelationship with with your Muslim neighbor and friend. We walk in love, we believe the best we we are people that that don't expect evil just we meet someone were you looking to be gracious and kind and reach out so my posture is going to be that I can be foolish, but I'm I'm I'm not going to have all these walls of the table. Everything you tell me is just alignment meant to deceive and is calculated on the walk in love and and have that attitude towards others and then if there if there is sin. If there is deceit.
Let it let it be exposed to Davis is that the attitude that you've used in terms of relating. On a personal level with Muslims only.
FNMA found by experience that that lots of most Muslims who are talking about Islam being peaceful here in America at least, sincerely believe that you need to let you know II had I let them (over the years and several of them left Islam and became Christians when they became Christians that you know they didn't say hey by the way, I was lying to you when I said that Islam is religion. I was just trying to trick you made me really believe that and they they came to realize that they were that they were wrong, and so yeah it's that that the nightmare started I listened.
Let's grab another phone call will go to Holt, Michigan Donald, welcome to the line of fire.
I do well. Thanks, which are questions for Dr. Wood. While I want to say it's awesome to me. We've been through a lot of the same experience that I did a lot of time and I had a lot.
Bad emotions you know I did the same thing and asked Christ are username and I didn't get ended up doing the same thing on the yard would use my time to talk to people about the Bible and then I would go back to financers that have just arm did the same thing as I talked to Muslims, a lot of debating skills I learned while I share your video Eugene, one of one of my favorite ones.
I share it does Isis follow the Koran and the other one as the crown of Miss Allah's name great, so young David.
You continue to bear fruit. Message gets out PLACES.
Did you have it, Donald.
You have a question for Dr. Wood. Yeah, I was wondering no churches that are no more ever out. I want to get involved in. I don't know of any prison ministry needed some advice or are you involved in prison. It is kind of a problem that that and in certain prisons have date date they don't always want ex-felons to visit the prison so it is kind of an outlook. It is usually after a while though after after him. After many years of not getting into trouble then then they'll let you live there. There are several that there lots of prison ministries out there.
There are the large prison ministries like Chuck Colson's prison ministry and enemy are usually local prison prison ministries and for basically if if you if you know a prisoner in jail. That's close by you. Normally you you should just be able to contact them and say hey you know what what ministries are involved.
Fear because a lot of times is not it's not an actual ministry that that that's that's reaching out to the prison. It is like a local church local church will send a pastor extended group. There regularly and so if you're interested in in prison ministry that the simplest way would be to ask you know which which local churches which local ministries actually visit this jail or this prison and then to then go to that that church for that ministry and say hey understand that you guys you guys reach out to people in the local prisons and to how can I get involved there and then you get to find out what what the requirements are for fifth if they don't want people who are no former convicted felons or something like that that will be stated in the rule somewhere, but you can you can then learn the requirement though is it pretty simple. Contact prison and contact the ministries that are better work there excellent that networks Donald bless you for your heart to reach out to those that are hurting and not forget about them in the Lord give you some good solid connections. David just two minutes before before the break here, but when a Muslim is been raised thinking that promises perfect book and only aware of this. This one Texan is perfect.
This of contradictions and then they start reading the Bible and will this Texas this and this this version says this in get confused if you just had a soundbite this in a couple minutes. How do you get them to have confidence in the Scriptures about what they're locked away but I mean I found by experience that when they have that level of confidence in the Quran. It it it it almost never based on them actually studying the Quran and and developing this confident out of the study of the Quran. They been told by their leaders in their apologist that the ground been perfectly preserved.
Not one that is ever been changed. Crown contains all the scientific miracles occur on is perfectly consistent. All of these things that are there absolute nonsense.
If you actually go to the Quran and investigated and so I find that bit of helpful to sort of respond to the things they've been taught and to actually spend some time going through those claims and helping them realize that hey the things you been taught about the Quran are not accurate. You need to take a closer look at what it means for a book to be inspired, how you would know that a book is the word of God because, based on the criteria the Muslims are laying down perfect for preservation and like that the Quran fails those test so what then are the test of a of an inspired book and somewhere in there somewhere in there you you can you can you can know get to get to some criteria and when you look at the Bible and there lots of interesting things about the differences here, but when you talk about Scripture everything in and Islam comes down to one man, Mohammed in in in when we talk about the Bible, we have a cloud of witnesses we have a cloud of witnesses, spanning many centuries. Many even different continents. Ultimately boiling down to the same message and so and especially when you have no that the figure of Jesus Christ, whose the culmination here of of all of this if you know that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and we can know this historically know that Jesus rose from the dead, then this is God's word of the key act in history. And if God is raising Jesus from the dead, and this is his is his most important act in an and in the history of salvation, then you can start putting together a case for the Scripture. Because now it makes perfect sense.
If God is doing this amazing things. Obviously obviously going to preserve the mess. Will says he says that we got single minutes with hey Harold, you answer the question yet if you got visual arts game development skills get the gospel on parabolic yet you use your skills to communicate the gospel.
Yes, it's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 86634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks Chris for joining us special – is Dr. David Wood, PhD in philosophy from Fordham University.
He said nearly 60 moderated debates primarily with Muslims and with atheists and self radically converted from a very lost life and I'll bring the good news to a wide range of people you can follow his ministry by checking out his videos on YouTube. They get lots of use for good reason. Go to YouTube and type in David Wood and you'll find his videos and find out more. David, I am always in the midst of controversy one way or another asked for not and I find when I talk about Islam among many get hit from two different sides. I will write about radical Islam and I will explain why terrorist acts have their grounding in Quran and in in historic Islam, etc. but I'll refer to this radical Islam because I know that there are many Muslims who do not relate to Islam in that way so I can I get slammed from the one side from the Muslim side say this is not Islam. ISIS is not as long etc. then I get slammed from the other side don't say radical Islam. All Islam is radical. All Islam is violent how you sort out that terminology issued to beast distinguish radical Islam from Islam, we try to prove that radical Islam is true Islam are we concerned about not pushing away Muslims from dialogue by bringing the most terrorist what your take on that yet.
I don't think there's any solution to the problem of the language here, someone is going to be upset no matter, no matter what we say though that the people were saying. I stop calling it radical Islam because is just Islam I mean in a way the right.
I mean if if Mohammed said that he been commanded to fight people until they until they say that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger and that's not some radical version of Islam.
That's Mohammed himself. If not, not quoting Al Qaeda handbook here. I'm quoting Mohammed to whom Muslims are supposed to submit to. So if you focus on that and we have to say that's what Islam is and you know Muslims who are not following that act like Islam lights or you know something that but you know, at the same time we we we do need to distinguish between your average Muslim in the street who just knows living his life and working in an outgrowth of the mosque in France during Ramadan but is not trying to kill anyone, and people who are actually trying to kill us so we need meaningful distinctions, but no one's going to be happy no matter the matter what terminology we use. So I think at the end of the day. We just need to carefully explain our terms as we go on. I'm using this using this term. This way because of this, and this got it yeah and and again I'm I'm trying to be accurate, and I'm trying to be pragmatic and obviously when I can satisfy the side say another twitter question. Have you ever invited sexier in the two debates of an Indian Muslim cleric have you or is he something I wanted to get as far as I know all of the all of the know that the Christian debaters who deal with Islam have have challenged my challenge them.
James White is challenge them to Bill Qureshi's challenge and financial notice challenged him J Smith is challenge them. Nike is the is really one of the saddest things, saddest things ever that Muslims look up the night get this champion debater when he really had a brilliant strategy depends a couple of people years ago, most of whom no one's ever heard of you only debated one person that I've ever heard of that was that was William Campbell next approach was to debate people home only to be people never debated before people had no debate experience and to get them on stage and to you know normally and experienced debater some elective foods whose is an experienced order is going to win some some easy points on someone who isn't an an order or who doesn't have a lot of debate experience and I did this deface a couple people that assess and and now must think of them as this champion debater when all the CCC series for status of the challenges challenging for years and always back down. He always makes a brilliant strategy. If your goal is to mislead the thinking her plan and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown, my, my bad.
There right there you have actually actually misread the subtitle of life of Mohammed earlier, Sophia verbal typos.
They do happen are 866-34-TRUTH number to call my guess David would top Christian apologist debating with Muslims and with atheists want to switch over to atheism in a moment but just another twitter question. Is there one English translation of the Koran that you most highly recommend, or a compilation of the HUD decent English that you most highly recommend the Koran question is tricky because the kind depends on what you're what you're looking for.
If you want something that's not going to be watered down. You probably want to go with the quality translation so the helicon translation is was put out by by facilities and so they tend not to try to water down things so that the helicon as far as what's the most popular what what what Muslims are most likely to to be using that if there if you're using the Koran in English Quran in America that will probably be the use of folly translation is just to see lots of people using and distributing use of folly translations of the ground as far as what is most that is sort of easiest to read the.
The Oxford, the Oxford edition of the garage. Translated by a Muslim but I just found it. It's really easy reading. He was that he said he's a good writer of of English and he does tend tender water things down more than than, say, the helicon, but if you're just trying to to get it.
If you're trying to make it through the Koran without giving up the AV, the Oxford edition of the of the carotid is easier reading and and I say that because you know you Gabi for one accurate understanding of the Quran, but the Quran is very, very, very difficult to read. The 20th century atheist philosopher Anthony flew said that to read the Quran's independence rather than a pleasure conflict or punishing yourself reading the scrub because it is disorganized. It's jumbled together very, very difficult reading of nothing because I don't believe in it. I mean I find no other Muslim sources to be very interesting, but that the Quran not so much a part of the resort is the hadith there. There aren't a lot of options right on the table so I would.
I would stick with the whatever whatever collection you go to their six main collection, but I would go with the Darussalam additions that the publisher of the Dar es Salaam publishers with their editions of the Quran, just because those are the ones that that are that are being used, and others. Others are sort of wealth. I don't think that the others are to become more popular, so I would stick with the Darussalam additions about whatever hadith collection.
You're going for, and that would evidently get the heel Bukhari and you know it's interesting, what, when I immerse myself in learning. Another perspective on Jewish but I think Griffin is very traditional home or anything like that so I had to learn the literature later. You do your best to read the primary sources and see them through the eyes of the adherence and then understand why they find something beautiful wife has meaning the same way when I was started to immerse myself in looking at issues of gay activism.
I try to put myself in the shoes of of those that identify as LGBT. Heck, I couldn't kiss my own life and upbringing but tried to see it in a liberation. Try to see their cause and see how they saw us and it's painful to do it. You could you try to see the world through authorized so I there select portions of the Quran in on the shorter chapters in Arabic and I can.
I understand that I understand the power of the force of it and how it units chanted beautifully in all this, but I read a lot of it's like I just I don't #iPhone.
See the power and the beauty of it.
To be honest but but with that let me shift over to atheism because when I met my wife, Nancy, I was a believer in 19 she was a staunch atheist. When we met she been since she was about eight years old and then God saved you brought us together so that's been since 74 married since 76 and I've done my best to try to see the world through the eyes of an atheist and I I I almost get there.
I think but III can't fully get that you know Nancy would have to help me understand some when I debated Bart Ehrman years back on the problem of suffering. I went over a lot of my opening arguments, whether in Sumter Synod that that doesn't mean anything to an atheist and I would tell her what a brilliant Harshman. It wasn't. She would dismiss it and show just sometimes draw my attention to something on Facebook were Christians respond to atheists as Christians without even trying to understand the atheist viewpoint as someone who came out of atheism you find that that lack in the church as well that that our response is not often really scratching that atheists answer or addressing the issue they're raising you. This is an area where lots of Christians would have more in common with with Muslims and certainly not on no violence or something like that or terrorism, but in terms of sharing belief in God and purpose to the world and know that there's a God out there and something happens after we die. This is all completely different.
If you're if you're talking if you're talking to an atheist until certain get you like it if someone were to ask me. You know what was more rational Islam are a few of them. It's kind of a difficult question to answer. On the one hand there. There's so there's so much that's irrational in Islam, but Islam can deal with the big questions right. Islam can deal with the big questions of how we got here.
Why are we here you know how important are we what what is the meaning of life. Islam can deal with those kinds of questions atheism really really can't and to any of that sort of at the heart of the issue to get down to because AC is atheism. As far as it is popular expression. Nowadays it is kind of grounded in really superficial thinking. They think they have answers to big questions need to just below the surface and there's nothing there and they don't realize it because lots of especially the more aggressive atheist. They spent so much time attacking that they never really evaluate their own positions and that's not something I found bye-bye experience that I spent I spent years attacking everything else and just taking my own belief is an atheist for granted and as soon as I started questioning my own beliefs think they just crumbled very rapidly and it was that struck me the is that some atheists have an extremely high view of the God they reject. In other words, if he was really that good and really that loving. He couldn't possibly tolerate so much human suffering and pain create a world in which you would need know there's such suffering and pain. So yes the rejecting God.
Sometimes they're rejecting him because the God they were hoping for. In looking for didn't seem to be there. Suicide intellectual thing. It's a spiritual or emotional disappointment, but but there's something good that they were believing about God. They just felt let down. I think that's a whole other angle to approach as well. Lack of a fear that you find the kind of experiences in their life. A lot of egg I grew up in.
No group in the church and then my grandma died invited God, let my grandma Diane know Mike I talked to my pastor and he could give me any answers, and nothing made any sense and peopling amine answers and so so I just left and so it wasn't it. If things weren't set off by no had practical philosophy class and start investigating these things philosophically and examining argument is that they think they went through some pain and and you know as for reason for the pain and didn't get the sort of answer than the that they were comfortable with and what about those that get ticked off at high school, college, just because of evolution. I'm always shocked to hear how many people that happen to it and it seems to be such a straw man to be, but I don't have much scientific background, how how big an issue is that still coming up over and over in your atheist apologetics. That was that was my wife's experience.
She grew up she grew up of the good Catholic girl and got to college in took evolutionary biology and stop believing. It is part of the big questions or concern you would still have to deal with.
You know the origin of universal something like this but how we got here how human beings got here with the process that produced us historically, historically, you know, Christians have a have a have a good answer and that we got here by week we have a creator and that's why we are different from other creatures and we have a unique ability because we are where we are created in the image of God that we have answers to these kind of big question, but when you know when atheism comes along and says oh but you don't need God to actually answer these big questions because we can answer it by by these other means. Then start okay will, maybe I don't need God to understand why I am here are what I need to do and so it is good it can be a kind of replacement and in that sense yeah and again the questions we have big answers in the one true got a great thoughts find out more about David Woods work, go to YouTube and search for David would get a few more minutes I'll take a few more questions. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I have been would last all hour and 45+ minutes to listen to our entire discussion. Our entire interview is testimony. His past. His conversion is working Muslim outreach to listen to that.
Just go to the line of our website. The line of fire.ward later today, the entire broadcast will be there or if you download our app want to fire with Dr. Michael Brown download that app for your iPhone or for your android phone, then you'll be able to just click and listen to the archive today show as well as listen live on any other day that Salina fire app on the Apple on the App Store with with Apple or the Google play store line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown. All right, let me grab a couple more questions for you, David.
This is also posted on Twitter. Is there a good, easy to use resource to counter the classic Islamic atheist claims that the Old Testament is called just as violent as the crime perhaps a video of yours are some source should recommend where I live address to send in the basement on the barracks wearily and I discussed Old Testament violence and in our debate is the Bible a book of peace, but I've been planning haven't actually mitigate but I've been planning a video along the lines of the Bible violence versus Quran violence 10 differences and so you know that there they're all kind of different interviewee even if you look at the old Old Testament and completely ignored the New Testament. You have differences that are emerging already in Islam. Muslims are to go out and violently subjugate the world in in the Old Testament. The Jews were to take a piece of land and to hold the people land. It wasn't something that you know that that that that that they were conquering the world with so you have things like that.
Another differences. The Quran affirms the Quran affirms the the inspiration and preservation authority of the Torah, though if Muslims are quoting the Torah, to show violence. While there, there, they have to believe that that is divine revelation as well. But again, that that the main the main difference here is is if you read the book from beginning to end. The take away message is as far as how we are to live for that we are to love everyone and where to to do good to everyone. There is violence in terms of the, the, the Old Testament, to keep in mind these people weren't just a tactic because they had different belief for the Jews. If you look at the if you look at the behaviors of the Canaanites. The people that were were to be fought. You know it was beast reality and sacrificing their kids and things like that so it's not just fighting them because they're not believers in Islam, you do fight people because they're just not believers. And so when you you you put these things in context. You look the final marching orders. The take away message of the Bible is one of love and peace. The take away message of the Quran is one of violently subjugating the world that you can have Christians who ignore that and decide that they're going to be violent, just as you can have Muslims who ignore the final marching orders then and live peaceful life. But what were not talking of your parents here were talking about the messages we were comparing the messages and so very different very different when you when you put the book side-by-side yeah and and again that's it. Simple comparison. This is reading the books, but if folks if you watch David Woods debate was should be only on is the Bible book of peace then you will see this argument laid out in David last question, just a couple minutes I've done many debates as well and see great fruit and then some people wonder in the simple one that we just preach the gospel as as if it's preach the gospel or debate, or that you can preach the gospel through debate aside from strengthening the faith of believers which is massively important in doing a debate and helping them finances to their questions so they'll they'll be stronger witnesses. What other fruit from debates. Have you seen in terms of reaching those who differ with you.
I've given you and I we we were formally debating but yet we spent years arguing anything that you eventually left Islam and became a Christian, but other others do as well. I mean I had probably five or six debates with a Muslim named Farhat he he eventually left Islam limits with this guy when he was a he was a member of the Muslim debate initiative.
No notice to the skies of interchanges debated and left people of the debated for on. I think that was Mobile first debate he debated, he debated for the visit. I left Islam so even debaters can be impacted by the debate. As far as you know, for the average audience member. I think that the most important benefit of of the debates is that most people haven't most people aren't apologist with whatever whatever their background atheists are Christians or Muslims. Whatever. And so they don't know all the arguments and they don't know all the responses to the to the argument and so lots of Christians and atheists, and Muslims are convinced that even though they don't have all the answers they really think that there apologist do that.
I am still so a few lack of a few felt there just think the Christians are such complete morons that if you put someone like Richard Dawkins or something on stage. You just can completely humiliate them in the Christian will will walk away with his tail tucked between his legs and so for for an atheist to get up there and see a Christian, even putting forward a rational defense and and holding his own.
That has a psychological impact women.
I thought all of you are just stupid mind people. If you're Muslim you think it's so clear we've got all the evidence on our side that the scientific evidence of the Quran and the perfect book of the perfect man for our guys going to crush this Christian and with a Muslim.
They figure all of this information that they've never heard before.
Right that they didn't hear from the mosque and they didn't hear from their leaders and so sort of, all the way across the board. What what what you're looking for is this kind of a light switch moment where it's like a light goes on for for the Muslims. It's like, hey, I've been told all of my life that the evidence is so clear now I'm seeing that it's not my leaders didn't tell me the truth about this. What else are they not told me.
Maybe I need to look into this for myself. That's the sort of light switch moment for a from Musselman with an atheist and similar it. Wait a minute I thought these guys were complete morons.
Faculty Christians were totally stupid and it easier for the smart one can hear this Christian is obviously really really intelligent and yet continues to believe in Christianity. Maybe I need to to reconsider my position that that these guys are really just note this stupid people.
Maybe I need to look into this a little more carefully select kind of the goal you usually not hey. I just watch the debate and therefore I'm converting or something like that. These things normally take a lot longer to unpack than an hour and 1/2 or two hour debate. So you're looking to to sort of help you help spur people want to go and start looking in the things for themselves yet. Well said in an II know when when I began debating rabbis because we were told tediously was don't know anything and rabbis pursue brilliance in learning and studying for Cicero children is this of this wave of courage we go through the Jewish believers equate what we do have answers and if it is amazing to see the effect of it and then others say why something I thought these guys are bunch idiots but they got some the say so keep keep for planning good seats keep doing the good work and will leave it is a mystery. The question asked at the beginning of the show.
We never got back to the look, the distinct David would luck on the videos looking off to the side. Why is done that remains a mystery for right that he keep up the great work and I appreciate that I can answer that 22nd go-ahead go-ahead. The answer is I'm actually at the end of my bed in the videos and I wedged in between my my my dresser in my bed in the chair will only phase in one direction so I'm kind of doctrine that this that is it is now been revealed a national radio