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It's time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown much for joining us today on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown I'm delighted to have a guest with me professor at Dallas theological seminary was written a lot about the end times and was very different view than I do, than Craig Keener but not afraid of the antichrist.
He's written many books about the end times will be having a friendly dialogue his brothers about our differences today. We rejoice in the resurrection of Jesus, our Savior celebrated yesterday, resurrection Sunday firstfruits within Passover, a time of great spiritual significance with Tom and great morning and sadness as suicide bombs went off over Sri Lanka coming what was 300 people, wounding 500 others. Apparently there was advance notice of this, but it was disregarded by intelligence real tragedy real pain as we celebrate the resurrection. We remember those suffering greatly and pray for God to bring to repentance those responsible for the crimes. That being said, the discussion that we can have now is a friendly discussion in house. This is nothing we divide over this is nothing we raise the cry of heresy over this is nothing we excommunicate over these are differences we have with in the Lord. Dr. Hitchcock holds a PhD Dallas theological seminary currently serves as an associate professor of Bible exposition at DTS and resulted over 25 books related to end Times Bible prophecy can think of a better person to have a friendly disagreement with Dr. Hitchcock welcome to the broadcast. Thanks for joining us forever, I'm also in Oklahoma my mind worked on a drug drug dollars, and afterward but I'm the pastor of a church in Edmond, Oklahoma as well, so the water don't want to leave that out. The folks of anybody let you know generally gotta God I that's the main vocation and calling and look ultimately our concern is not with abstract theology or esoteric doctrine, but what is the word say and how do we live in those of the real issues to us correct right MMS Road following me to say this, I drive from Oakland city to dollars back and forth every week. Been doing it for a few years. I didn't know anything about your program and I picked it up about two or three years ago. I'm not on 91.3 there in the Dallas area. You end up Dallas to solace into your most days delete that last part. A little acyl part of the trip and so I really enjoy what I told my wife we listen she goes with me sometimes and when I got older that there are a few things iron their luck with all this, I disagree with you about what I've said that I was really appreciate your attitude and and I really appreciate the work that you're doing so I'm kind of sad a little bit of the first time on your program has to be about something we disagree about because I appreciate your ministry so much.
But anyway we can have a discussion like you said about that to build it to meet you someday end up express my appreciation person of all you do. Thank you. So that's meaningful I think. Actually the redemptive side of this is that it's it's all too infrequent that brothers and steamy children. The Lord can have an honest discussion about differences. So in a sense, it's any of us can this could Agree easily and fellowship over our agreements with the rotted and have differing things and we actually put in writing.
I think that's about a test visit. Maybe this is a good way to start. So solicit II want you to be able to shape the agenda for conversation here right so if you don't mind. First, just lay out your views which would be classical dispensation was pre-tribute to make sure that that all of our listeners and viewers are familiar, and then after that and I'm secret you can do that. The short version of the launch of the short version is that I'd like you to share with me and our audience. The biggest areas of difference you have with me or where you take the most exception I will cover as much ground as we can, but I want you to shape the direction we go set their career looks great appreciate them.you will just feel feel the Lord leads as we go along. No big runs good sounds good, yes. So basically the overview of pretrip rapture. What are its distinctives why you feel it's so important well. The pre-tribulation rapture what it what it holds is that there is a two phases to the second coming of Christ, we all believe in Christ is coming back someday took her to rule in the rain and I think your premillennial I believe aren't your part to synergistic ports or families go back and set up a literal thousand year reign upon the earth and so the pretrip rapture holds that before the second coming of Christ are to be a time of tribulation on the earth seven year period of tribulation and at the rapture of the church been caught up in heaven will take place somewhere before… The poster brownshirts holds it's gonna be in conjunction with the second coming is actually know some people hold the mid-trip view.
That is to be at the middle of the tribulation from the rapture.
So there's a lot of differences about timing is actually another view called the pre-route, three quarter of the way through the tribulations when the rapture will occur, but related to dominant use today.
The two predominant views would be pretrip and post-trip. So we see a rapture attaching away of the church of Jesus Christ, the dead church age believers who died with their bodies will be resurrected or rejoined with their spirits. Those who are alive on the earth will be caught up receive immortal imperishable incorruptible bodies in a moment, the twinkling of an eye be caught up to heaven to be with the Lord will have the judgment seat of Christ, the marriage of the Lamb's events will happen then at least seven years later than will return back to the earth with Jesus Christ when he comes back to the desert to rule and rhyme and do you have any differences from city. The earliest dispensation lists that seem to even write off some of them in a large portions of the Gospels.
The New Testament said that was just for Israel, where would you agree with and where would you differ. Well, you have some of the earlier dispensational had think they made some some distinctions were too too hard and fast. Too much discontinuity. You know, not enough continuity. I yelled I don't know when dispensational us today know who hold that the value of the sermon on the mount was just for believers in the kingdom the future kingdom covered every dispensational spinal today has the idea carries the idea that the sermon on the mount is for believers to thank John MacArthur David Jeremiah Chuck Swindoll Warren Weathersby Darrell Bock Greg Laurie and Mignon want to kill myself.
I just thought on the sermon on the mama long ago plucked it today, so there's some some things like that to some older dispensation was held, but I don't know of any dispensations today to do hobos think so there would be distinctions like… I would be one and then what about Matthew 24 the Olivet discourse.
Who is Jesus addressing their just make sure I understand your viewpoint here are taking the Olivet discourse that it's all about the second coming that there is no mention of the rapture.
There are naturally them. The more dominant you today as well on your some that one taken one last to know some take that to be the rapture but I think it is the second coming and the one who's taken there's taken away to judgment in the one left is left on the earth in of the millennial kingdom so I know some dispensational see a rapture and a second coming in Matthew 24. The media gets confusing on a Jesus or in Matthew 24 is addressing a Jewish followers who will addressing those who will be alive during the tribulation.
On the second coming takes place. The rapture still seems to me overall primarily to be a mystery. At that time is revealed later, through Paul, primarily in your first Corinthians 1st Thessalonians talks on CF.
I don't see a rapture in Matthew 24. Some dispensational us do that. I would say the majority today don't see that right so that that's interesting with when I came to faith and 71. We were taught that there was a rapture and the second coming in Matthew 24 all the left behind geology, etc. seem to have that same emphasis in an mindset and I I did a radio show couple weeks you read this read through all of Matthew 24 and said, look, it's the same audience being spoken to. Throughout so that the left behind, then it is terminology. You wouldn't you would use again, I'm not try to drive a wedge in here and try to bring clarification. That's terminology you wouldn't used to say the two major rethinking series left behind.
You don't want to be left behind. And that's interesting. Those left behind are we doing to be left behind it. You still ride to the same pretrip rapture.
They do but you wouldn't try.
Matthew 24 the same way right know what I would say is in Matthew 24 at the second coming.
Those were left behind are left on the earth to enter into the kingdom.
Those taken away or taken to judgment so that the what I would hold it at the rapture to the reverse of that of the rapture you want to. You don't want to be left behind at the second coming, you do want to be left behind like a Delta Matthew 24 and so did Dr. Wahlberg and many others. I took Matthew 24, 37 to 39. I took that as the second coming as well.so maybe give maybe we should get into Matthew 24 little bit later if if time permits and in in your view, why bias is not just a matter of abstract theological speculation. Why do you feel it's important that the leverage that that obviously I believe Scripture teaches poster belief Scripture teaches pretrip. That's why it's important to us. We believe that's what God's word say but on a practical level, why you feel this is something we should actually really look at and think about the whole idea about ecology in the Lord's coming. I just find it's not it's not talked about a lot of churches that course. I guess you could send me a lot.
There a lot of doctrines that are talked about, the dearth of dirt of doctrine. In general, but I would say the one area probably made Uriel systematic theology that doesn't get taught in churches very much is very Bible prophecy or eschatology.
So I think it's important because here you have in over 300 times that the Christ coming is mentioned in the New Testament in 260 chapters was obviously a large body of of what the Lord wants us to be thinking about and been living in light up and I just pretrip for me. The re-one of the things it's been a draw to pretrip rapture just for me personally, this isn't the reason I hold it, but it's it's in itself benefit of it is with with pretrip rapture. Your ugly crotch could come at any moment obligate come at any time and to me that's a motivating factor to get up in the morning to go to bed at night so you know, perhaps today. Today could be the day that Christ comes to live without idea in my mind, you can come at any moment enter me with the other views of the rafters studied him.
I don't think someone at midcareer burglars and pre-router poster can get up to the you legitimately. So you Jesus could come today and again you know if I know that people like yourself will poster again. You live in light of the Lord's coming, you believe is coming or be held accountable. But there's others and added incentive or motivation.
I guess I would say in my life of pretrip rapture of believing that every day and it really I can honestly say in my own life. Personally, it does have an impact on my life because I think about it often you back to that and I want to be ready and want to be faithful and and all of that when it comes.this group got a break coming up I just I just want to give a quick responsible comeback you and then want you to raise your your biggest objections to the book, Dr. King, I wrote but even for me. I don't ever. Every day is the potential of meeting the Lord because we have no guarantee of living tomorrow.
So every day is a day to live for God and no guarantee that he will take any of us home in a given day, but when I found holding the preacher believes in many circles. I was in was there was no ability to really think and plan in a long-term way in the moment that we saw cultural decline. We thought this is it ratty, almost high sale price on escaping unhealthy escapism so he is come back.
I guess a friend and a brother in the Lord for plan and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown books that Hinson can we still believe in the rapture is a pastor in Oklahoma and he is a professor at Dallas theological seminary.
You'll screw pretrip rapture, I hold to a post-trip second coming in rapture as one of the same event. So Dr. Hitchcock I only give you an opportunity to respond when I came to faith and 71 course that the big book out at that time was how Lindsay's late great planet Earth. It seemed like everything was aligning Jerusalem back in Jewish hands. After the 6167 counterculture revolution of the 60s. The final great apostasy and we we knew, you know when I can live long. Jesus is coming real soon and so on the one hand you live with anticipation.
I absolutely credit dispensationalism or emphasizing the second coming more than other parts of the body appreciate that and I commend them for what I found was heaven unhealthy way of living and thinking. I know whole ministries that ended up handicap by that for years because they they never could think long term because Jesus was coming.
So what have you seen that tendency or had to deal with that are correct that over the years will I think a result some of that back in your Rotman are electric planter term on your read that I was about 11 years old and it was a big deal at the time when that kind of stuff going on there. There wasn't some reckless speculation from people and everybody should not denounce the people to set dates or no for Christ coming. You know, we should never do that you claim to know that you claim you know something that Jesus didn't know during his incarnation, so as not God that we shouldn't try to be forgot who the antichrist is a link in all those kinds of things, but for myself it's never been a difficulty in coming to plan a menu plan for retirement. In my mind is just I believe he could come at any moment now. I don't believe Ms. I think the idea of eminence. Either way, all the way means that we can be certain that Christ is coming, but it's uncertain when he will, we don't know what could happen in the moment. Nothing has to happen before things could happen before, but nothing has to so it's a it's a motivating influence in my life and I see it in the New Testament else's were to be there looking for the blessed hope in order be waiting up for his son from heaven not I don't find places were waiting for the microscope sees me were waiting for Christ.
And so that's the attitude I want have them waiting for Christ that he can play at any moment and and and I'm am waiting for course.
I'm not looking for the answer customer looking for the blessed hope, but we recognize those that that this was a reality in the very beginning that there was anticipation, not because of the land because of the what, just like Paul says in Romans 14 road and give account to God but to future judgment or significance five-year we have to appear before the judgment seat so there's accountability. That's a silly thing. The parables about accountability will will be stand before God and then what's gonna happen to us when he appears, however, change so so I find the what is the emphasis rather than the wine.
And then of course we differ about second Thessalonians 2 as I believe Paul does layout 90 that the antichrist has to come first, but in any case, one at one of few start with others under the top your list. If you were to to object to write a negative review of our book. Where would you start okay you what I would what I would point to first is this is something that's been around a long time and it United States the whole history of the pretrip rapture view and what I would say is that you and your book on in the first 62 page RR guy got your book cup which can read through it in the evening I enjoyed it gets a well-written book so thank you for writing it, but the first 62 pages of the book. I have looked at again a while ago to make sure Judge John Nelson Darby in 1830 know that the rapture preacher rapture started with Darby and in around 1830 is mentioned seven times it just like on page 35 says nobody noticed this doctor until 1830, page 49. It didn't start until 1830. No matter woman of God before that time believed it. Page 55 and 1830 no one know one thinker came up with an alternative view the end times page 56. No one articulated this view clearly until 1839, page 60.
Like the most important one, since there is no record of anyone promoting a pretrip rapture breaking 30 everyone expected Jesus would resurrect the righteous, and destroy the wicked at the same time and that those types of statements by belief of been disproven through lots of discoveries of pretrip rapture statements before 1830 and I just mentioned a couple of things.
There's an entire book by Ken and William Watson called dispensationalism before Darby and he's found dozens of pretrip rapture statements in the 16 and 1700s in England we entered the book I wrote with Ed Heinsohn. Can we still believe in the rapture. Chapter 5 we outlined a lot of that. But there's like a guy named Francis Coomer Locke and princes groomer Locke is a predator she doesn't like pretrip rapture. I'll talk to him on the phone before but he's a Latin scholar teaches at Colorado College and the Colorado Christian College and he's found lots of statements that are consistent with with many of the aspects of pretrip rapture fact and just this just this month's are this top quarter Nelson reports on periodical journal called filial take of Sectra and is got one in there. Just this month, princes, groomer Locke, the rapture and an 11th-century text and in this text that's called up than the narration of Isaiah. It's written in 1070. There's a rapture six years before the end but he's found a lot of them like you got at the history of Brother Delfino in 1306. Many you got all kinds of stuff in this article on there's one in the 1536 the life of Brendan at Klagenfurt fertility says it at the end of the world. Brenda and his followers, together with all the saints of Ireland will go to land of promise seven years before the last judgment so you got all kinds of information Francis groomer Locke… He told me of the whole file drawer full of these statements and is counter bringing them out you know a better time and energy on William Watson's book. He mentioned several of them. There's one you may have vertical pseudo-Ephraim.
It's from the between the fourth and seventh century audit shows up for all the saints elective daughter gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come undertaken to the Lord, lest they see the confusion that can overtake the world and in the end Watson's book is got six times in the 16 and 1700s in British writings.
You have the word left behind people being left behind when the Rapture Takes Pl., Morgan Edwards, who founded the school became Brown University. He says that the dead saints will be raised a living at Christ's appearing in this will be about three years and 1/2 before the millennium. He thought the whole tribulation was 3 1/2 years, not 70 or so statements pretrip just because he saw the whole tribulation is a three now pure. We shall hereafter but he will and they will abide in the error in one of the many mansions in the father's house and so disappearing during the aforesaid period of time to be were to disappear during this three now pure. And in return I would Jesus guy name Robert Manton in 1642, had a you a rapture and peopled the ungodly being left behind to experience the wrath of God. He referred to the rapture of the time when the elect. Meet the Lord in the air itself may not want to bore everybody just going on and on, but there are dozens and dozens of these statements are found near constantly being found more of them so I whenever people cited Darby came up with this. I think it's a historically inaccurate statement of fact, Rogers read two sentences by groomer Locke available filibuster here. But he says the notion that the ideas that make up three tribulation is and were invented out of thin air by Jane Darby nearly 19 centuries.
Historically, narrow when one examines the entire history of Christian eschatology similarities to the ideas that compose modern pre-tribulation wasn't found in the decades and centuries preceding Darby all the way back to the medieval. So again, this does not pretrip.
He doesn't like pretrip rapture because respondent all the statements in bringing these out so I don't that that the that the Darby 1830 argument.
I don't like it because I think it's a straw man and there's a lot of of research that's been done to refute it, and so I wish the people repost river hold different views would stop using that would stop using that point because I just don't think it's historically accurate. Got it right so very full and I appreciate.
Of course I have just pronounced Dr. Hyson's name: Hinson might. My apologies.
There, but I'm good that I got a start and finish on the inside of the break. I am I can take as much time as you did, but you respond. I think it so when I was already picked up mozzarella no no no you are you being thorough, and this is important to you and you feel it's it's it's inaccurate of the me tell you why I believe it's it's totally accurate. And then I will respond to the citations. The system that Darby had and the specifics of dispensationalism which uniquely separate church from Israel and and then the parenthesis of the church agent and all this I feel quite confident that that system and that specific eschatology laid out in detail are not found until dark. That's that's the first thing the second thing if you dig deeper in some of these texts.
First, it becomes even your book, you acknowledge you maybe this is the seed of what we would like to later in some of the church fathers, etc. crime. Aside from not knowing who wrote exactly that having a gap of several hundred years in terms of authorship, so no prominent writers, church leaders espousing this, but which was really interesting is that I read more and pseudo-Ephron which time of the saints being slaughtered in times of tribulation, etc. and that Texas because I've been gathered in death as in Isaiah 57 that sometimes the righteous die prematurely to be spared from something coming so that it is actually when I dug in deeper seem not to espouse this idea at all and and I sent off to when the top Jonathan Edwards scholars in the world, and a great Puritan scar needed at the towering giant in this field and I said have never looked at these Puritan tax before and he responded IC to dismiss so III copied and pasted on the other your book including Morgan Edwards and and what he said was this essay to dispositional rapture is a particular version of the general idea for the Scripture by the reference in history that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord, near dispensationalism has a set of very particular ideas. The parenthesis church.
The seven-year tribulation, secret coming for saints and I see the luminance of these ideas only in the Morgan Edwards region supplied in the attachment Jonathan Edwards that since heaven, but in any case will go a little further on that and then agree or agree to disagree and vomited right back marching. We will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown to see a friendly debate on the rapture is a follow-up portrait Mark Hitchcock is one of today's top pre-tribulation is in America got some fans out there.
Dr. Hitchcock and wheat we actually have some incentive in my why I think some time and in the summer on the national Christian broadcast. We got like one or two hour of more formal debate scheduled something like that, I believe, I think you maybe deal with Jan Markel you examine that which would be good as it's not on the calendar. Absolutely so many just say this or Craig Keener did that most historical stuff. I did some in-depth stuff about dispensationalism, but he did stuff in it with church quotes and things like that so either. I've sent things to him to look at them and if there's anything in any point where someone can show restatements modified for sure it will be but let me ask you this last thing and and then we can we can move on because ultimately we agree and agree on is what Scripture says, go by but II fully understand what you're jealous about this and what you feel it's important issue but just to notice what we would understand as dispensational theology and the end time scheme as we know it in, and that the church age, being kind of a parenthesis and how God deals with Israel again. Do you find anyone clearly teaching that before Darby.the whole scheme that we would know his zones also prevent electrical you're right.
The whole scheme was formalized by him. It was said in Darby's kind of in the early 1800s like that and where he was at Trinity College of the someone by the common apocalypse was in the air was hearing these things from other people. He's one note.
It put it together and systematized it, but no it on page 62 and again you might look at this, you say, everyone expected Jesus would resurrect Rogers destroy the wicked at the same time, but all the statements I have elected them indelibly out and keep reading them, but there's many of them were people are caught up to paradise, to escape the tribulation and then later they descend to the earth, so there is a resurrection and at some time before of the return to the earth, so that's simply the point I'm making is that understood idea that there's a gap between when people are caught up and when they come back for judgment.
There's this Time is three years 3 1/2 years at six years at 70 years it.
It's a different target but but it goes way back. And so I just then again, let me just like the point you made and then this'll be good be a segue in order what you want to get to, but no, just because people before Darby held this doesn't mean it's true I'm not using that to say this proves it's true, but it does prove the people before Darby held in the other isn't something that so I just want to make that point right in and get my my pushback would be all the documents have to be examined in full.
Is he talking about a resurrection did this person believe in all types of multiple comments, but the second coming was something distinctive on those it takes. When I noted you scholarly research you focusing on one subject for your doctoral dissertation with Revelation. I focused on one Hebrew word for my doctoral dissertation, so things have to be unpacked. That's why you like the sewer fry one digging deeper thought notes action, not what it's saying but we can agree though that for sure the system as unpacked by Darby is believed by dispensations today that he was the first to unpack it like that and and lay this out, but either way the questions were the Scripture say where cross-cultural were both Reformation people. I'm a Jewish believer in Jesus which means I don't embrace all of church history, etc. so that's her ultimate issue so and I appreciate you being articulate and thorough and friends if if you want to get would you recommend that book service as the best one for people to look at in terms of the road before ours is the most relevant one in our current discussion. Can we still believe in the rapture.
Yes, that would be the one doctor per pupil radio we know we interacted about every post-tribulation was your book will now yeah right. We could that's out there yet to try to and we try to put forward our arguments but then also deal with with their arguments to you and try to deal with way.
One of the weaknesses of our viewing of the people outwardly more exciting. So we tried it. We try to do all of that is very thorough. I like that it's not real long fairly readable so you deftly justly readable and desolate with an irenic spirit and definitely when you try get this is a strength. This is not as much of the strength that I feel that your junior best to be honest and not pound away with with differences so I do appreciate that. So maybe if we talk on the scriptural level. What's you know your top three your top five issues will start with everyone scripturally where you think we got it wrong but I think you guys got wrong. Yeah yeah yeah well I think a couple of things. One is not there. There's a few points. I think with with that her problems with the post review that I didn't I didn't find your book and maybe there there and I didn't read it just every word I didn't dissect that much but there's up there couple problems with the post review that I didn't find addressed to you since you guys are premillennial in your you believe the currently in your post rivulet. Christ will come back at the second coming all the righteous will be raised in the died in the elect will be resurrect will be caught up to be with the Lord so everybody every believer then will have a glorified body on so they all idea of populating the millennial kingdom. I'm sure you've heard that argument before the everybody gets caught up in average resurrect. Never. But every believer is a resurrected body of the near know people are going to the millennial kingdom and human bodies which are seems to be during the thousand years procreation and all that auto.
If you hold that you are not, but that that seems to be a problem to me for the post review. It's been one the post-tribulation is over the years tried to deal with.yes we do deal with that and that would've been probably one of the things in my text yet, so I've never seen that is a problem. Interestingly so so help me see why is a problem. Zechariah 12 and 14 speak of the nations of the world attacking Jerusalem and then we know Jesus returns in and destroys the wicked, but it tells us explicitly.
Zechariah 14 that the survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem go up to Jerusalem and worship it at the feast of Tabernacles and so we know that we know at the end of the millennial kingdom. If we understand Revelation 20 that there's a mass rebellion. So it's not all these people have is not converted, people, so we are we are raised up we rule and reign together with with the Messiah over the earth and the ones that repopulate the earth and fill the earth and procreated all that and still have the potential of sinning and dying or the survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem so not all the wicked are destroyed and Zechariah seems to make that pretty explicit so and some would even argue that the sheep and goats judgment.
Matthew 25 versus 31 to 46 applies to that as well. That's what I should not sure, yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know that's a question like this.
It talks about entering eternal life, and that's contrasted with eternal punishment is that for the millennium but yes. Zechariah 14 tells us explicitly to the survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem go up to worship now it Tabernacles immediately after his return. And obviously those are the ones that are appropriate.
Fill the earth, though I would take up with those are people after Christ is come back to them. People who the wicked and people then maybe their offspring of those people then going to the millennium there there believers at that time they could've become believers to live for the third time the Lord is returning your is not necessarily people are unbelievers running the king to go to the parables in Matthew 13 comes and get bad fish in a good fish that is going to the kingdom you don't going to the kingdom. I don't see unbelievers going into the messianic kingdom. Matthew 25. Again, you just mentioned. Matthew 13 will see that that unbelievers are going into the messianic kingdom will okay but where you where you seen them is where getting Marty left and right in the tribulation, and being so caught up to meet with the Lord right and and now before the throne of Revelation is desiring to the post review you know according to pre-tribute element of risk getting Marty left and right dry tradition. We getting born again right in and in getting martyrs. So now we are where we caught up to meet with the Lord. Revelation 7, so we have to have a body analysis so if were resurrected and then were not. We can't populate years either going to medial and that makes sense is the post review because, again, that the wicked are destroyed right, but not everyone in the earth is characterized as wicked their men until another rental lever is right right so so those are the ones that repopulate the earth so all the believers when he returns.
We are caught up. We we are glorified with him. We we we meet him as he's returning and you discuss the Greek word for meeting there is as well. Right. So where the entourage we come out to meet him as he returns, he destroys the wicket with the breath of his. His mouth in Isaiah 11 second second Thessalonians 1 and the survivors because not every night. It was characterized as wicked. There may be people that were believers but but they they were part of the attack, they may have different with it. Maybe they were trying to help persecuted believers of persecuted Jews, they enter the millennial kingdom survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem does say there believers, and effective.
Some don't, they come under a curse right so that that that's where I see them coming from what seems to be pretty explicit in the text, but I'll just say that there's other places in the New Testament. I think it would Tim tell me that everybody who goes into the kingdom as a believer, manual and millennial team 15 Chicago Chevrolet goes into believer.
Then I have children a lot spring and then some of them aren't believers. Also at the end use others as God, my God rebellion but generative it enters up as a believer but then over time as people are born and many began to know not to serve the Lord that there is no open rebellion during the millennium are taken against Florida meeting on account of that in general the rotten arson as possible. But the people while harbor you know about disbelief and unbelief of the Lord in their hearts.
But during that period of time and yet the end of the common garden by Goggin locality flushed out at that period of time but but I see Matthew 25 billion others did nearly to the Bible says when the Son of Man comes and sits on his glorious throne.
All the angels with him is going to gather all the nations like sheep and goats put the sheep on the right hand goats on his left but to me, a poster of raptures true that all the sheep will have just been caught up to meet the Lord in the air as is coming down and there won't be any sheep left elders be goats right but based on your theology though all these people have eternal life and he can't sin, they can't die they can't rebel because they will have eternal all those entering the millennium. According to Matthew 25, 46 have eternal life, and I know that with nothing punishment other people who are on earth them who go into this millennial kingdom and in in bodies and natural bodies, but that look at look at what Sessa Matthew 2546 right you know that the versus Israel right and these will go away into eternal punishment for the righteous into eternal life. So it's eternal life, contrasted with eternal punishment, not a thousand year kingdom, not the possibility of sinning.
After that, or the possibility of being destroyed in rebellion.
After that it's eternal life. In contrast with eternal punishment, Trident, and when people go into the kingdom and have eternal life.
We have eternal life. Now whoever believes has eternal life, and have eternal life with millennial phase of the kingdom is the ultimate phase of the eternal placement; but some of them can be destroyed is revels. This is going to kingdom you have the unrighteous will be destroyed.
Yellow be taken out of the kingdom of such right, there will be allowed to enter.
Okay I will lick the sex have been an impasse interview here, but the goal is just to err some things I tell you what race is a full-fledged place for faith is seen still works for you. I'm so glad we can do this so it's helpful deftly help.
It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 86634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Hitchcock believes what he believes because he loves the word and he loves the Lord.
He's a serious student of the word, and he's very serious about living for Jesus and pleasing the Lord. So the difference is we have we have with massive commonality with 99% of what matters most.
Joining us together in the areas where we can differ as his people with limited vision, insight, human beings in this world. Those are the areas we smiled at each other listen to each other.
Try to be sharpened one by another and and continue serving God together so I want to emphasize that that the name-calling that goes back and forth on either side. The heresy stuff that I hear right you know you're all around its inappropriate were talking about people who are delete week we are the small group that believe in Jesus a certain way and hold to the authority of Scripture and in the midst of a god of this world, so I want to emphasize that even though I barely know Dr. Hitchcock. I consider him a friend and and coworker together in Jesus, so I knew and were not when I try to win a debate here were laying out fees and responding conscientiously read our books. Can we still believe in the rapture. Dr. Hitchcock and Dr. Ed Heinsohn, Craig Keener and and I not afraid of the antichrist. Why we don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture and then sometime in the summer will meet.
We do a more formal debate and even there the goes on to win the goal is to present our views as best as we can sharpen each other challenge each other and and let others benefit from that. So one emphasize that will let you know we have details on the debate so Dr. Hitchcock back to you sir. Another major area where we think we were missing in our system doesn't work well like one other point that just yelled it canned tomatoes, reading, and it is a good point that you medicament of Fairpoint you know, people often say about pretrip rapture know that there's like no one verse of the teachers. It yeah I actually think there are, in my view, there are a few, but I think that that argument can be a little bit misleading because you know there's no one verse that teaches the Trinity know the way that we expressed that many of the creeds of the church and had to make them mad, hammering these things out early on and there was no one verse really teaches the hypostatic union know the way that we understand them and we could repeat those things together a bit by looking at different paths to so I think you meant to say that there's no one verse, the teachers, although I would point the verses like first Thessalonians 110 you know the word of waiting up literally for his son from heaven near the Lord Jesus, whom he raised from the dead, who delivers us from the wrath to come not take their the wrath to come is the tribulation is not the route of hell because I think you know he is coming is looking to deliver us from the wrath of hell's death and resurrection did that it is coming that delivers us from this future coming wrath. And I think in the context of first and second Thessalonians, which are very eschatological letters, and yet here you go and you guys interact with us in your book but you, Revelation 310 is to keep us from the hour of testing, that hour is coming up on the whole world in the test because the earth dwellers not to just work the just work From the testing were kept from the very time of the test.
Just your question I would use you noted that I think are clear, but I do think the whole one verse thing is a little bit overplay just because there's other doctrines that are a little bit hard to find in one person's wealth that are very important, very important document right so rather than push back on. On the one verse issue that many ask you to click questions here right is it a a biblical doctrine that were were saved to escape the wrath of the tribulation or biblical doctrine that were saved to escape that the wrath of final judgment, the wrath of second coming. That's that's one question in the second question with with the words of the Lord to the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 310. Of course, as you note in your book, the Greek, there is found only one other time in in the New Testament and perhaps an excellent Greek literature, but certainly only one of the time we can. John and STI 1715, where Jesus expressly prays that were taken out of the world that were kept from the evil one. But my question is, since he was writing, speaking to the seven churches in Asia minor and there was a word to the church in Philadelphia was the relevance of that word to the church of Philadelphia. If in fact it speaking it's one thing to say.
Living readiness because every no one knows what is coming. So every generation lives in writing this I accept that I embrace that I live in readiness and expectation of but it's another thing to give a specific promise.
Like if that was written to two in first Corinthians and and and now the Corinthian church is even there anymore. What is that promise mean initially to to the believers and in Philadelphia getting that message. If it was just a promise that you won't go through the great tribulation for faithful, but they can be long gone before that comes right well methylated with a lot of prophecies.
As you know me you know the Genesis 315 the government and people that were in no didn't see that until the coming of Christ on the altar and his death on the cross yelled. The prophet Isaiah 700 years before Christ came a minute near the people lived in that time didn't see the fulfillment of those but they lived in the hope of it. I think it's a promise to them that each of the promises to the seven churches decision of the Spirit says to the churches euros in your living there with the spirits of the church and select their messages. All those churches, I think, by extension, DOS was well not that everything in the letters and seven churches. Some of it local, but I think you know there's parts of those that are that apply to the churches in general, the rewards and all of that promises to the overcome her. I don't think those were just of those churches on a dirt all believers.
So, I would. I would apply about why that's a promise to them, but as believers read that it's a promise to the churches and even the church at Philadelphia. They didn't know when these events were going to take place was a promise they could lay hold of. Even though it didn't happen in their lifetime. Just like you know people in past generations read the Bible about the Lord second coming, and it didn't happen in their lifetime.
It doesn't mean it wasn't something that they lived in light of to give them hope may not happen in our lifetime either, but we live in light of it, but that it seems there because she's My word about patient endurance. I will keep you from the outcome. It's coming on the whole world to because gone earth that was suggesting something was happening at that time that's that's I understand the prophecy and and all those things with the nature of that word. There makes me wonder, okay.
Was there something specific that did happen at that time that that they were Safe in the midst of kept safe from well I don't know what would be that that's the difficult decision to keep you from the art up-and-coming on the whole world minutes. It's global. It seems like an assist to test the earth dwellers not upraised of the earth dwellers found 11 times in the book of revelations found throughout the book. But these people, and hardened rebellion against God or the earth dwellers for the special object of God's judgment. So to me this the fact that earth. Well, that's the first time June Revelation there and 33 1011 that you did 10 more times to meet makes a continuity between that verse and the rest of the book of Revelation because he goes back again and again to talk about the earth dwellers on the judgment that's coming up on himself, that reason I would see a continuity without bursting through the book rights and nothing specific. Since a general promise, as opposed to something specific me out. Obviously this is a question that I raise just studying Revelation. Aside from from eschatology. What is that mean to the hearers then, but this notion, though, of being saved from the coming wrath. Meaning, say from the tribulation when it only applies to whatever group is there in that last generation and all the rest of the promises I can live in readiness of his coming. In anticipation of his coming every generation because he is coming, but only one generation either protected in the midst ever taken out from will be safe in the coming wrath was icy safe in the coming wrath. This is the wrath of final judgment talking some of the coming wrath. The coming wrath. That's EEE doesn't seem to be talking about this is to be distinct. On the earth as much as final judgment final accountability great white throne second coming fire and brimstone, etc. so it is, is that which would preach today come to faith in Jesus and be saved from the coming tribulation or be safe from Helen and divine judgment will move from giving a gospel appeal to someone only talking about the judgment of help Sherman to meet him at the other to be delivered or saved whatever delivered out from not, but I think that notice someone you don't like what we do in all our churches as we begin to teach people we teach people. Other things that we begin to delineate finer points, but I do teach people low when I go through there as well who were believers that I believe we will be kept from the coming wrath is coming about time. So that's something I would teach believers, but it's not something I would tell someone is an unbeliever to try to get them to come to Christ and I do not annex the ability to rapidly tribulation is not the ultimate motivation for someone to come to Christ. But I think once someone is a believer, the metal legitimate thing to teach them of something I would teach and do teach here at our church in a Dallas seminary, which is a Dell seminary as it believes in and in the pre-tribulation rapture and we teach them got it and and you're required to believe in the pretrip rapture to the end faculty there or the guy that's part of the doctrinal statement that Dell seminary idea. Like you said earlier or nomadic people that don't hold up beautiful whatever but it's just if you're going to teach here. This is the view Caddell centers a dispensational that's premillennial dispensational in your pretrip school so you have to sign the documents. They met again with the professors that are on a lot of you with some of them that's not the biggest issue written out to them their Old Testament scholars or whatever it is but but they hold to it but probably different degrees of the passion to which people hold that, but you have to believe about tiny dolls and and Darrell Bock is a good friendly. We often minister together and speak together and in messianic Jewish conferences and other academic conferences and things. So with it. We we've never really had a discussion about eschatology that the other books out maybe will will will dammit dammit I love to go through through Matthew 24. Challenge some of the presuppositions. With that, but perhaps it are more formal debate we can do it that runs it. Yeah I and I think you can be putting out some videos which got 30 seconds. Some videos we differ with Dr. Keener and me while I do not mention to you through this little video blog only five minutes every week common sense were to be doing these other things. I'll probably just tell people to listen to these guys out because lecture today you your been gracious. Give me a good opportunity to make some of the points I disagreed with. So those are some of the same ones I would mention got it yet. So, God willing we can really lay things out and gently format his brothers let people here understand study and the size and were both eagerly awaiting these establishment. Thank you for Alameda flesh is