Have the Gifts of the Spirit Ceased? A Debate

The following is a pre-recorded program.

That's 866-34-Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. James White was the moderator. And I'd said, hey, I'd gladly debate someone on the gifts of the Spirit.

Are they for today? Because I was being challenged on that a lot. And Professor Sam Waldron, whom I didn't know before this, stepped forward and said he would gladly do it. So this is the debate that we had. I don't have the exact date in front of me, but in the description on YouTube and on the S. Dr. Brown channel, we've got a link where you can watch the whole debate. But we're going to give you substantial excerpts, so substantial parts of my opening presentation, substantial parts of his opening presentation of our rebuttals, and then basically our closing remarks in full. So without further ado, I went first throughout, so here we go.

The gifts of the Spirit ceased. Well, thank you so much, James, Sam, for doing this tonight, and thanks for everyone who has helped to put this together. I want to say right from the start, this is an in-house, in-family debate in light of all the crisis in the world and so much that's wrong in our society. We stand united in Jesus, and I hope that shines forth in everything we say.

And I'm quite sure if I got to know Sam better over a period of years, there'd be a whole lot that I could learn from him. Instead of the framework for this debate, I want to say plainly that this is a sola scriptura issue to me. What do the Scriptures say? I am charismatic. I believe in the gifts and power of the Spirit, the New Testament charismatic gifts being for today, because I am sola scriptura.

For me, this is a matter of letting the Word be central and authoritative. And if I'm to accept the witness of the Word and let the witness of the Word be central and authoritative, I cannot be a cessationist. I will say plainly that there is overwhelming, explicit New Testament evidence for the continuation of the gifts and no explicit New Testament evidence against it. Professor Thomas Schreiner, New Testament scholar and himself a cessationist, actually says nowhere does the New Testament clearly teach that supernatural gifts have ceased. A reformed pastor, Dr. John Carpenter, says even responsible cessationists will concede the Bible doesn't teach cessationism. Scripture has no explicit cessationist statement. So if I believe the sufficiency of Scripture, how can I use it to defend something it doesn't teach explicitly?

And if the Word of God promises something or even commands something, on what scriptural basis can I negate this or ignore it? So let's start with the ministry of Jesus for whom healing miracles, exorcism, played a central role. This was part of his foundational ministry.

Matthew 4.23, he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people. We see elsewhere Mark 6, Matthew 10, Luke 9 and 10 and other passages that proclaiming the kingdom and healing the sick went hand in hand. In other words, these miracles were not just impersonal acts of power announcing the in-breaking of the messianic kingdom like trumpets announcing the approach of royalty. They were signs, meaning indicators, of the in-breaking of the messianic kingdom.

This is what happens when the rule of God arrives. And since the messianic kingdom did not leave the earth when Jesus ascended to heaven, where does the Bible say it did? There's no reason we should not expect to see the continuance of these miracles as the kingdom of God spreads around the earth, the earth culminating with its full manifestation when Jesus returns. So we understand that there were unique elements to the miracles of Jesus. We all affirm that to establish who he was. But we also know that some of the miracles he constantly pointed to were because of the in-breaking of the kingdom of God.

Satan being driven out, healing coming, deliverance coming, because that's what happens when the light shines in the darkness. That's why Jesus constantly pointed to his miracles to confirm his messianic identity, but he refused to perform abstract acts of power. Nor did he say, look, I was walking on the water, I must be the Messiah. Now, we know that after the resurrection of Jesus, the gospel of the kingdom was preached.

Acts 8, Acts 20, Acts 28, that's how it ends, talking about Paul preaching the good news of the kingdom. And Paul speaks of the kingdom of God in the present tense, here and now. 1 Corinthians 4, 20, the kingdom of God is not a matter of words only, but of power. Romans 14, 17, the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

What's the point? Oh, we are looking for the full manifestation of the kingdom, we pray your kingdom come. We are awaiting inheriting the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of God has also broken in the earth, and with that come miracles of healing and deliverance.

That's what happens when the reign of God touches areas where Satan has dominated and destroyed lives. Also, the healings of Jesus reflect the will of God. Throughout John's gospel, he said he could only do what he saw the Father doing. And he said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. We can learn much about who the Father is by looking at Jesus.

John 1.18 famously and literally says in the Greek that the Son exegeted the Father. Well, did Jesus go around making people sick or making them well? When we go to minister to the sick, not to condemn those who are sick, not to say you're lacking in faith if you're sick, we recognize some of the godliest people in the world are handicapped, we recognize that many people grow through sickness and disease, but in terms simply of the will of God and expectation, because we always want to line up with the will of God, not our own thinking, the question is, what would Jesus do?

What is the Father's will? We see it explicitly reflected in the New Testament, and in fact, it builds on and confirms that which came before. Also, the healings of Jesus were often the result of divine compassion. For example, Matthew 14.14 tells us that he had compassion on the sick and healed them. Well, if Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, if his healings reflected the will of the Father, and we'll see continuing evidence for this in the New Testament, if they are a reflection of the compassion of God, can we simply say they were signs to confirm his messianic identity? I had one theologian once tell me these showed who Jesus was, but who Jesus was, in terms of his essential nature, is who he is.

Can we continue to look to God with expectation that out of compassion and mercy, he will heal the sick? And, if not, where does the Word tell us that? Again, sola scriptura, this to me is not a matter of philosophy or some type of abstract theological deduction.

This is a matter of the explicit testimony of the Word. Also, in the words of Jesus himself, John 14.12 is programmatic and universal. Whoever believes in me, Jesus says, words we find in, say, John 6.35, 7.38, 11.25, 12.44, 12.46, these are universal promises. Whoever believes in me will never hunger. Whoever believes in me, the Father will testify on his behalf.

These are universal types of promises. Jesus says, whoever believes in me, the works I do will he do also, and greater works than these will he do because I go to the Father, and therefore will send the Spirit. And we see some of the greater works already in the book of Acts with mass conversions and things like that taking place. Now, if we look in the immediate previous verses, we see the works he's talking about are the miraculous deeds that he was performing. And what does Peter say in Acts 2, 38 and 39 to the repentant Jewish crowd? That they will receive forgiveness of sins in Jesus and the gift of the Spirit for the promises to you and your children and all that are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call, which harks back to Isaiah 59, 29, the promise of the Spirit to the succeeding generations of Israel here, given to those who put their trust in Jesus. This is a foundationally important text because it makes clear that the prophetic gift is not just apostolic, not just for a few prophets, but now poured out on all believers, and it is for the period of the last days, and it is to you and your children and all who are far off. Everything else in the rest of the New Testament affirms this.

Nothing contradicts it. In Acts 4, 29 and 30, the apostles prayed, Lord, look upon their threats. Grant your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness while you stretch out your hand to heal. And signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Why was that an acceptable prayer now? But when we pray prayers like that today, we're told that it's now a carnival sideshow and a distraction from the Gospel. No, the signs and wonders continue to point to who Jesus is. When we come to the epistles we see in 1 Corinthians 1, 7, Paul commends the Corinthians, you're not lacking in any gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The New Testament knows of no concept whereby a new canon of Scripture will be completed, after which there will be a long gap before Jesus returns. And even Professor Schreiner notes that a good case for the continuation of the gifts until Jesus' second coming can be made from 1 Corinthians 13, 8 through 12. And when Paul lays out the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, 7 through 12, he does not have separate categories of revelatory gifts. He says these are for the common good, and they are not explicitly attached to the apostles in any way, shape, size, or form. And then he says at the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it, and God is appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating various kinds of tongues. These are all interwoven. Even if you try to separate apostles and prophets, you have teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helping, administrating various kinds of tongues.

This is part of the very fabric of the body. And then when he gets to the end of his discussion in the 14th chapter and says, earnestly desire to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues, that is an explicit command. On what scriptural basis does someone today forbid speaking in tongues? Paul said don't forbid it. He said earnestly desire to prophesy. On what scriptural basis is that overturned?

Frankly, there is none. 1 Thessalonians 5, Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies, but test everything, hold fast what is good. Where has that been overturned in scripture?

It never has. It is an explicit command. If we throw out one verse, we're going to have to start throwing out others. And then James 5, 13-15, Praying for the sick in faith should be a normal part of congregational life.

This is for the elders. It does not require a special gift of healing. In order to pray in faith, there has to be confidence of the will of God to heal. And it's in the same context as anyone of you suffering, let them pray.

As anyone cheerful, let them sing praise. Well, if you want to eliminate the call to pray for the sick, it's a regular thing with expectation for healing, you have to throw out the other verses as well. The fact is, if we were Roman Catholic and believed in the authority of ongoing church tradition, or if we were Mormons and had another alleged holy book, we can have an excuse to override the explicit testimony of scripture. But since we are solo scriptura believers, we have no alternative but to accept the clear, consistent, and never contradicted witness of the word and expect the continuation of the New Testament charismatic gifts until Jesus returns. The entire testimony of the New Testament goes in this direction.

There is nothing explicitly that contradicts it. There are explicit commands to pursue these things for the glory of God, the good of a dying world, and the good of the church. And as solo scriptura people who hold to the centrality of scripture, we must be continuationists and not cessationists. All right, I've got to interrupt myself. When we come back, we'll get to hear from Dr. Sam Waldron and his argument as to why he believes the gifts have ceased.

Thanks for tuning in today. We're taking you back into a debate with Professor Sam Waldron as he argues that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and are not operative today. We've just heard a good segment of my opening comments. Now we get to a good segment of Professor Waldron's opening comments. Here we go. I really appreciate Michael's statement.

I want to call him Dr. Brown. It was a good statement, and it proves something else that I wanted to say at the outset, and that is that one of the reasons I think we need to have this debate is that we need to appreciate that many Charismatics are supernaturalists. They take the New Testament seriously, and for that they are to be congratulated, and we thank God for that. I also want to say that I'm glad Michael said nothing about the Strange Fire Conference because I intend to say nothing about it. I've been away in other ministries and have no opportunity to review what was said there, so neither want to attack or defend it. The subject, have the New Testament Charismatics gift cease, is also one that I'm very thankful to discuss. I'm glad we're discussing that. I think it's the key issue in our day, not baptism of the Spirit or the second blessing.

Those are important issues, but I think this is perhaps the most fundamental. My argument is as well not that there are no miracles in the world today. I believe that there are miracles in the world today. My argument is that there are no miraculous gifts. I think there's a clear and common sense distinction between miracles and miraculous gifts. A miracle is a one-time event. A gift is an ongoing possession of an individual marked by repeated manifestations of that gift. My argument against the continuation of the miraculous gifts is called the Cascade Argument.

It goes like this. There are no apostles of Christ on earth today. Because there are no apostles of Christ, we may cogently argue that there are no prophets on earth today. Because there are no prophets, there are no tongue speakers. And because there are no tongue speakers, prophets or apostles of Christ, there are no miracle workers.

Let me make several observations about this argument. First of all, it's grounded in the assertion, which I hope to prove in a moment, that there are no living apostles of Christ in the world. It assumes as well that apostles of Christ were a gift to the Church.

They were in office, but they were also a gift. 1 Corinthians 12, 28-31, Ephesians 4, 8-11, Christ gave gifts to men, among them apostles. This argument also assumes an important distinction between apostles of Christ and apostles of the churches. I'm only asserting that apostles of Christ are no longer alive among us. I'm not saying that there are no such things today as apostles of the churches or messengers or missionaries of the churches. This argument does not depend on whether those people who I'm addressing believe that there are living apostles of Christ in the world today. Many Charismatics do not believe in living apostles of Christ today. But my argument does not depend on that assertion that there are living apostles of Christ. Rather, it poses a dilemma for Charismatics. On the one hand, if they agree that there are no living apostles of Christ, then they should not be against Cessationism because they actually hold a form of it. And this represents a fatal flaw in their argument. If they say there are no living apostles of Christ in the world today, then they are admitting that the first and greatest gift that Christ gave to the Church no longer exists, and that is a form of Cessationism.

And I believe that it's a loose thread which unravels their entire argument. On the other hand, if they believe that there are apostles of Christ in the world today, they are denying a clear and pervasive truth taught in the New Testament, which I hope to show. What then is the evidence for the cessation of the Messianic apostolate or apostles of Christ?

Well, it consists or is found, first of all, in the unique marks that they possess. Apostles of Christ, according to the New Testament, have three distinguishing marks. First, they are directly appointed by Christ. Mark 3, Luke 6, Acts 1-2, chosen apostles. Acts 10-41, witnesses whom he had chosen beforehand. Galatians 1-1, Paul was an apostle by the will of God.

And this is the meaning of that strange account of the use of the lot. The lot was used because no human being is competent to appoint an apostle of Jesus Christ. Only Christ may appoint his apostles. The second mark of New Testament apostles is that they are physical eyewitnesses of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 1-22, 10-39, 1 Corinthians 9-1, Am I not an apostle?

Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Third, they are able to confirm their apostolate by doing miracles many places, but 2 Corinthians 12-12, especially, the signs of a true apostle were done among you. As such, these apostles of Christ spoke authoritatively for Jesus Christ.

The things that I write to you, says the apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 14-37, are the commandments of the Lord. The Sheliak, or apostle, or sent one of a man, said the ancient Jews, is as the man himself. And this is what the apostles of Christ claimed.

They were as the man himself. They spoke for Jesus Christ authoritatively. Charismatics may argue that men today possess these characteristics, but surely the burden of proof is on them to prove such an argument and to accept the consequences of such an argument, which is to say that there are men who speak authoritatively for Jesus Christ and infallibly today. But in the second place, and mainly, I argue the cessation of the apostolate, the messianic apostolate, from the New Testament on the basis of five different arguments. First of all, Ephesians 2-20, the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, which is an allusion to Matthew 16-18, where Peter is called the rock of the church, and Revelation 21-14, where the apostles are said to be the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. These passages speak of the apostles as the foundation of the church of Christ. This illustration is met historically and chronologically, and means that apostles of Christ were confined to the foundational period of church history. 1 Corinthians 15-8 affirms that Paul, last of all, was the last one to see the risen Christ. Last of all, he appeared to me, says the apostle Paul, and if that's true, and one of the indispensable marks and characteristics of an apostle to have seen with their physical eyes, the risen Christ, then Paul was the last one to do so, and there are no living apostles today. 1 Corinthians 12-31 and 14-1 directly suggest that Christians cannot seek the gift of apostle of Christ, and thus that it is seized. Prophecy, it seems, is the greatest gift that may be sought. This is what Paul focuses on in 1 Corinthians 14, and in spite of the fact that he's mentioned a gift of apostle of Christ in the preceding context.

And then a fourth argument. Galatians 2, 7-9 teaches that Paul received the right hand of fellowship from members of the original 12 apostles. No professed apostle of Christ today in the world can receive the imprimatur of the original 12, as Paul did. And then finally, Ephesians 2-20 states the form of the New Testament canon as apostles and prophets. The church is built on apostles and prophets. If there were apostles today, the canon would be open as those apostles continue to speak authoritatively for Christ. But since all but the most extreme Charismatics acknowledge that the canon is closed, this assumes the cessation of the apostolate. And again, this all poses a dilemma for Charismatics. On the one hand, they agree that there are no living apostles of Christ.

If they agree with that, then they should not be opposed to cessationism because they actually hold a form of it. They believe in the cessation of the first and greatest gift given to the church. And this represents a fatal flaw in their argument.

It's a loose thread which unravels the entire thing. On the other hand, if they believe that there are apostles of Christ in the world today, they are denying a clear and pervasive truth taught in the New Testament. Also, since the New Testament links the impartation of Charismatic gifts to the apostles of Christ, Acts chapter 8, this suggests the cessation of the miraculous gifts. Now, let me go on then to say that this all leads to the conclusion that there are no prophets today.

And this argument goes like this. That there are no prophets because, well, first of all, the cessation of the apostle creates the presumption, or at least the possibility that other gifts may also cease, in spite of what our brother has said. New Testament prophets were, like the apostles of Christ, foundational to the church, Ephesians 2.20. The New Testament prophets were infallible. The definition of a prophet given in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 was never rescinded, and this requires infallibility on the part of prophets. Now, all of this leads to the conclusion that if there are no apostles and thus no prophets and therefore no tongue speakers, that there are no miracle workers today.

And again, I come back to something that I said earlier. I am not denying that there are miracles today. The kingdom is present, and it may be present in there being miracles today. But there is a difference between believing in miracles and believing in miracle workers. There is a difference between elders praying without absolute certainty that their prayers will be answered for the healing of a member of their church and the work of a faith healer. There is a difference between those two things. There is a difference between miracles and miracle workers. Biblical miracles are called sign, as our brother said, and what that signifies, what that means, is that they are seen as attesting the revelation brought by the miracle worker. This is the cascade argument.

No apostles creates the precedent, leads to the further step that there are no prophets, leads to the further step that there are no tongue speakers, leads last of all to the idea that there are no miracle workers, but does not lead to the conclusion that there are no miracles or that the kingdom is not present in the world today. Okay, we're out of time right now. We come back, we're going to get into the rebuttals. My rebuttal to Dr. Waldron, his rebuttal to me, on the other side of the break here on the Line of Fire. Welcome, friends, to the Line of Fire.

Michael Brown here. You know, there are some debates that are philosophical. There are some debates that seem more abstract.

There are other debates that touch us more where we live. The question of miraculous gifts of healing still for today, this prophecy still for today, these things touch us more directly. So the debate with Professor Sam Waldron on the gifts of the Spirit, whether they're for today or not, it's a fascinating debate, but it's also practical. So we take you now back into this debate, and we're going to play a good chunk of my rebuttal to Dr. Waldron and then of his rebuttal to me.

And then in the final segment, we'll play basically our closing statements in full. The link to watch the entire debate is on our YouTube channel with this episode and at sdrbrown.org with this episode. Yes, Sam, thanks so much for that carefully thought out presentation. Obviously, you've looked at this and considered it over a period of time. So the fact that I will profoundly disagree point by point is no sign of disrespect in any way, but just forthright discussions so that we can all learn better and sharpen each other.

So I want to say, frankly, there's no dilemma. There is no loose thread unraveling whatsoever. There's no loose thread at all. And basically what I heard was a deduction that is not in the text. In other words, you read something into the text that is nowhere said, for example, nowhere are the miracles tied in with the apostles, only they're tied in with the Holy Spirit. Nowhere are tongues and prophecies tied in with the existence of apostles or prophets. This is the working of the Spirit in the Church. You started with an assumption and then read that back into Scripture to undermine the consistent and explicit testimony of Scripture. You would have thought that Paul would have said, Now, I want you to really seek the gifts of prophecy, but only for a while, even though I told you you're lacking a no-good gift until Jesus returns. I want to encourage you not to forbid the speaking of tongues, but when the last of us apostles is out of here, you better be sure to forbid it because it's either going to be counterfeit or the flesh.

No, no such thing was taught. And to reiterate points that I made, the miracles are signs of the Kingdom breaking in. That has not changed. The promises, like John 14, 12, have not changed. And Jesus said that this will happen because he goes to the Father and sends the Spirit. Acts 2 makes explicit this is now for everyone because this is for the last days.

We're in the last days. And that continues not until the last of the apostles died, but until Jesus returns. Again, the text is quite explicit on that, that tongues, prophecy, knowledge, all in part in this age will only cease when we see him face to face. In point of fact, one of the great things that happens now in the New Testament is that anyone can potentially be used by God, not just the apostles.

They had a certain function, just like scripture has a certain function. We do not add to scripture today. We do not have apostles the same as the 12 and their names being on the foundation stones in the new city of Jerusalem.

We understand that. But we understand also others in the New Testament are called apostles and the dake written somewhere in the second century. There's mention made of traveling apostles and traveling prophets.

There's no notion that now prophecy would cease or had somehow stopped because of that. And again, to eliminate apostles does not eliminate the ongoing gifts. How can we possibly deduce that from 1 Corinthians the 12th chapter?

In fact, what's written there in the verses I read earlier say the exact opposite of that. Notice again what Paul writes, Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it, and God is appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers. Then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating various gifts, kinds of tongues. So even again, if you eliminate apostles, prophets, you have teachers, then miracles, gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. At the end, the chapter are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers, do all work miracles, do all possess gifts of healing, do all speak with tongues, do all interpret, but earnestly desire the higher gifts. He puts teachers right in that category along with miracles and the others.

If you're going to eliminate one, you have to eliminate the other. Again, as far as canon of scripture, no one's arguing with that. Yes, we absolutely agree, and I believe it's as dear to you, the authority of scripture, as it is dear to me, no question whatsoever.

But let's think of this for a moment. The New Testament gift of prophecy, was there any effort to record all the words because this was somehow going to be new scripture? Doesn't Paul say explicitly in 1 Corinthians 14 that other prophetically gifted people have to listen and wait carefully what's spoken? Doesn't he say in 1 Thessalonians, the fifth chapter, that there has to be a testing of everything and a holding fast to that which is good? Doesn't he say in Acts 2, your sons and daughters were prophesied? Where is there any idea that this now becomes equal to the national leading prophet, say in Deuteronomy 18, who's going to speak and the whole nation has to comply or not? No, now we all have the Holy Spirit.

Now we're all to test what's spoken and to hold fast to the good. So there is a change in authority that's explicit in the New Testament. And apostles are just part of a team now, and in fact, not even on the highest rung of authority under the apostles in that sense, which would be very different from the Old Testament paradigm. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit is for the last days and on and on.

This is explicit. These are commands. These are exhortations. And we know historically that the gifts continued after the apostles died, and we know by scriptural testimony to expect them. And even to mention on a historical attestation level, the longer ending of Mark, which we understand is not the original ending of Mark's gospel, and we can dispute whether it should be viewed as scripture or not, but it's widely recognized that this is at the very least an early historical testimony to the words of Jesus, widely quoted by many of the church fathers. I'm not getting into a debate about its authority or place in scripture. That's a separate debate, but this much is clear. This is quoted by the early church leaders as something that is real and ongoing in terms of these signs follow those who believe.

Why? Because the confirmation is on the resurrection of Jesus. And even a verse like 2 Corinthians 12, 12 does not limit signs and wonders to the apostles alone. For example, the ESV, the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience.

That is what he's talking about, and with signs and wonders and mighty works. That was additional confirmation, but the signs spoken of there are not just for an apostle, signs, wonders, and mighty works, because they happen through others in the New Testament. Would that therefore make Stephen an apostle? Would that therefore make Philip an apostle?

Obviously not. And again, there's absolutely no connection between this and the fact that the gifts of the Spirit are given freely through the New Testament, unattached to apostles, unattached to prophets, as part of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh. I really appreciate Michael's spirit and the way in which he's addressed me and addressed these issues.

Of course, I completely disagree with him. But I am thankful, because this has opened the door for a number of important perspectives about Scripture and the acts of Jesus of Scripture that I think are widely misunderstood, not only by Charismatics, but by evangelicals. In fact, I think these misunderstandings are the source of the vulnerability of many evangelicals to Charismatics. First of all, I do appreciate our brother admitting that there are no apostles of Christ today. Please, we must not then try to fog this issue up by pointing to the apostles of the churches, missionaries, and messengers of the churches. The apostles of Christ and the apostles of the churches are two very different things. And by admitting the cessation of the apostles of Christ, I say again, our brother has been admitted to a form of cessationism.

He has admitted that the first and greatest gift Christ gave to his church has ceased, 1 Corinthians 12, 28 and following, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians 4, 8 to 11. I also appreciate his emphasis on sola scriptura and the closure of the canon. Obviously, there can be no sola scriptura, no actual embrace of it, unless you have a closed canon.

But here's the point that I think our brother misses and that many people miss. It's not enough just to assert kind of by fiat and without any rationale that the canon is closed. What I want to know, what must be answered, what cannot be evaded, and what any doctrine of this word course must answer is this. Why is the canon closed? What is the form of the canon? The Old Testament canon is called the prophetic word. It's called Moses and the prophets. It's called the law and the prophets. The form of the New Testament canon, the foundation of the church upon which it is built, is called apostles and prophets. This is the form of the canon. God doesn't just drop his word on golden tablets out of heaven.

He gave it through certain men, through certain designated and attested men. And so the question has to be not just do we believe in a closed canon. I admit that our brother, I'm glad to say, and men like Wayne Grudem and John Piper believe in a closed canon.

But the issue that never seems to be faced is this. Why is the canon closed? On what basis is it closed?

What closed it? And the answer to that question is that those men that were the inspired revealers of God's special revelation, those men ceased to be in the world. Look, if the Old Testament, Moses and the prophets, had for its form and for one of its delivery method the sayings of prophets, the attested word of prophets, if the New Testament was given through the apostles and prophets, you cannot at one and the same time maintain that there are prophets in the world today and the canon is closed. Those are two inconsistent things. What Dr. Brown, what Michael needs to answer is the question on what basis does he believe that the canon is closed? We agree that it is.

Why is it closed? One of the reasons the early church refused the monotonous heir in the second century is because they refused to allow new prophets to add to the Scriptures. But if there are prophets, then those prophets must be incorporated in the Scripture.

The other promises of John 14-16 cannot be willingly applied to all Christians. There has to be an important interpretive grid that looks first of all at the fact that these promises were given to apostles of Christ. And the same thing is true of the Great Commission. Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and the version of the Great Commission we have in John 20 as well. And Acts 2, the people that were standing and speaking in tongues, the focus there, and it's clear if you read the passage in context in all the versions of the Great Commission, including Acts 1-8, that these are not addressed to all disciples of Christ. They are addressed to the apostles of Christ as the foundation of the church. Now, of course, the Great Commission continues to belong to the church. The apostles have died and they've bequeathed that commission to the church. But in its original form, the promises of the Great Commission and the focus of Acts 2 is not on all disciples of Christ.

It is on the apostles of Jesus Christ and those other men and women in the early church that received the gift of prophecy with them. All right. Once again, got to jump in here. We come back on the Line of Fire with our closing arguments.

Oh, yes. Here we go. Thanks for joining us on the Line of Fire on another special debate week, taking you back into some classic debates I've had in the past. This was Professor Sam Waldron, the gifts of the Spirit. Have they ceased New Testament gifts of the Spirit? And here you get our closing remarks, and then I'll share some final thoughts at the end.

Thank you so much. And again, I want to make plain that every time I hear Sam refer to me as brother, it's a reminder that we are brothers. And as passionately as I differ, sir, with your arguments, I mean no disrespect. I know these are very serious arguments to you. I know you've actually written a book about this and have talked about it. So in no way do I want to demean the study of Scripture that you've done and your desire to esteem the uniqueness of Scripture and the uniqueness of the role of the 12 apostles. So I stand with you in that, but I respectfully say that you are undermining Sola Scriptura in the process and undermining the centrality of the Word and undermining the authority of Scripture, and on that level, picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow. So in conclusion, I want to reiterate what I feel has not been dealt with whatsoever.

And my final questions from my cessationist friends to consider. When did the coming of the Kingdom change in terms of its effect? If the Kingdom of God is not a matter of words only, but of power, and that power includes miracle-working power to heal the sick and drive out demons to the glory of the name of Jesus, when in fact did that change? Scripture is clear that it has not changed. When in fact did the revelation of the will of God through Jesus to heal and deliver change? Why would we be so suspect today of healing in the name of Jesus, or even the expectation of healing in any normal level, whereas it's something very commonly spoken of in James, the fifth chapter, and comes to us by revelation of the will of God in Jesus.

If you've seen me, he says you've seen the Father. That was not dealt with. And also, I do not see how John 14, 12, 13, and 14 can be just applied to the apostles. It is spoken to them, but there are things spoken to the Jewish crowds in John 6, which we apply to ourselves, and to the Jewish crowds in John 7 that we apply to ourselves, and say to those at the gravesite of Lazarus in John 11 that we apply to ourselves.

Why? Because they have the words, whoever, whoever believes in me, those have been preserved in the wisdom of God for all of us. I want to reiterate that nothing that I brought out from Acts chapter 2 was in any way undermined or even touched whatsoever. The outpouring is on all flesh. It is absolutely not for the apostles only.

Already it was on the 120. Now your sons and daughters will prophesy. This is the thing that Joel spoke of when? For the period of the last days. According to 1 Corinthians 10, Hebrews 1, 1 Peter 1, James 5, 1 John 2, and other passages, we have been in the last days, even the last hour since Jesus died and rose from the dead.

It continues until the end. That's why Paul commended to Corinthians, who were not lacking in any spiritual gift, waiting for the return of Jesus. And we see plainly that these gifts given in 1 Corinthians 12 are given for the common good. It remains an expression of the goodness of God. It remains an expression of the grace of God, the Charismata being an expression of the Charis, the grace and empowerment of our loving God. And this is just fundamentally a matter of Jesus being risen from the dead.

And he continues to do the same things he did on the earth, because he is, in terms of his essential nature, the same yesterday, today, and forever. And the reason that these things are done is because the Holy Spirit has been poured out, and that outpouring remains active until the end of the age, and the Holy Spirit always glorifies Jesus. And these things that we speak about are for the glory of the Lord Jesus.

That's what's sacred to us. That's what's so important, that it's to his glory, and this is how he's being revealed around the world today as signs, wonders, and miracles are done in Jesus' name to draw people to him. Show me where, please, this explicit scripture that says, no longer seek to prophesy, now forbid speaking tongues. Show me the explicit scripture, my esteemed brother said, there is none. And when we think, in closing, of the many other promises that include the ongoing gifts and power of the Spirit for today, and the manifestation of the kingdom, and the nature of the Spirit, and the fellowship of the Spirit, and my sheep here, my voice, Jesus says, of course, he's a God who speaks and acts.

He continues to do so. We should welcome and embrace all that he is doing on the earth today. Thank you, brother. Thank you, Dr. Brown, for debating and confessing Baptists and Dividing Line for hosting this. Thank you for your gracious spirit, brother.

And it's been a delight to talk with you and to discuss these issues with you. Let me just make several points in closing. First of all, I appreciate my brother's emphasis on the fact that the kingdom continues. It is not still breaking in, and Satan is not still being bound. That happened at the beginning of the gospel age. But I do appreciate his emphasis on the ongoing kingdom of God.

All I want to say is that's certainly true. We're not denying the possibility of the miraculous or miraculous healing in the world today. We are simply denying the presence of miracle workers.

We're not denying that other strange things may happen that we cannot explain or that can only be explained supernaturally. We're simply denying that there are apostles of Christ, tongue speakers, and prophets in the world today. And I just have to underscore that my brother has never sufficiently explained why some writings are viewed as canonical Scripture by the Church and why some others are not.

What really needs to be examined by people that are taking this position, they really need to examine into the doctrine of the Word. They have to ask the question, ask it of Scripture, ask clearly the question, what is the form of the canon? And if the form of the canon is Moses and the prophets in the Old Testament and the apostles and prophets in the New Testament, we simply cannot maintain that there are prophets of Christ in the world today without opening the canon.

And if we are going to maintain that there are prophets today but there are not prophets as existed in the Old Testament or as existed in the New Testament times and wrote part of the New Testament, then we have to admit that we really do believe in a second level prophecy and a split level prophecy and that it's possible to be a true prophet and yet violate explicitly the commands of Deuteronomy 18, 15 and following the standard of what counts as prophecy and scriptural prophecy. In a similar way, I would like to call upon my brother and of Charismatics everywhere to stop turning what the Bible makes a very clear distinction into a spectrum of things with regard to apostles of Christ. Either there are apostles of Christ in the world today or there are not. If you believe that there are apostles of Christ in the world today, then the canon is open because apostles of Christ have a right to say, if anyone thinks that he's a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize the things I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. So if there are apostles of Christ in the world today, the canon is open. But if there are no apostles of Christ in the world today, then the first and greatest gift Christ gave to his church is ceased and we are all then cessationists of some variety or another.

And then what I want to say in closing is this. The denial of the miraculous gifts frees us to focus on preaching the living Word of God in the canons of the Old and New Testament. That living Word of God is self-authenticating and it's self-interpreting.

The canon does not need modern miracles to confirm its authenticity or to interpret its meaning. And what we need to do is go back to preaching with confidence and power the written Word of God. 1 Peter 1, 23-25, you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable. That is to the living and enduring Word of God and this is the Word that was preached to you. Hebrews 4, 12, for the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit.

Luke 16, 31, but he said to him, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. Thank you brother, thank you James, thank you Michael for hosting this. I encourage you again if you're interested in this subject to go to the links we've put up at AskDrBrown.org for today's episode. A link to the entire debate on our YouTube channel in the description.

Ask Dr. Brown on YouTube for today's show. We've got a link to the full debate, you can watch it. What I want to encourage you to do is first do your best to read through the Word, read through the Word, read through the Word and let the Word speak for itself. Often our church environments, our background, even our experiences speak louder than the Word.

So just go back to the Word, what does it say, what does it say, what does it say? And then if you've seen God work supernaturally, if there's evidence of the gifts of the Spirit, ask yourself, okay, does this line up with Scripture? Does this confirm my faith in Jesus? Does this deepen my walk with the Lord? Has this brought other people to the Lord? If so, give God praise. And as brothers and sisters in Jesus, we can differ on this while still following wholeheartedly Jesus as Lord and Lord alone. As for me, boy, I'm so thrilled to see that the Holy Spirit is still moving powerfully through these gifts for His honor, for His glory. Another program powered by the Truth Network.