Is There Really Evidence for Divine Healing Today?

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

So, is there really documented medical evidence for miraculous healing today? That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, friends, to the Line of Fire broadcast.

This is Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. A lot happening in the world around us. I'll catch up on a few items there. A lot happening this week on the Line of Fire, a lot happening in the Jewish world. So, we'll talk about that. Then I'm going to welcome a special guest who's put together a really fascinating documentary.

I'm going to welcome him at the bottom of the hour. Here's the number to call. If you're following through on yesterday's broadcasts about the legality or lack thereof of the Biden vaccine mandate, if you have a general Bible-related question or social commentary question you want to ask me, or if you'd like to comment on the question of are there documented miracles happening today? Are there documented miracles happening today in Jesus' name in answer to prayer? Here's the number to call.

866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Okay, before I talk about miracles, before I give you an interesting personal health herbal supplement update, there are hearings taking place in Congress where Secretary of State Blinken is being grilled over our botched withdrawal from Afghanistan. I don't feel there's a lot to comment on there. The vast majority of you listening and watching, like me, are grieved over what happened and the way it happened and feel it was botched and handled wrongly. Whether you partially blame Trump for the setup up to that or Bush before that or Biden exclusively, that's really not the issue. I don't feel there's much to talk about.

There's no spin that Secretary of State Blinken is going to put on things that is going to convince me or change my mind about my understanding, barring some massive revelation of information, which thus far is not forthcoming. So that's one thing I just want to mention. The recall attempt for Governor Gavin Newsom in California, it's interesting. You know, California was not in the past the heavily blue state that it is now. And when Governor Newsom was elected a few years back as governor, Gavin Newsom, formerly mayor of San Francisco, you may remember as mayor that he started issuing same-sex quote marriage certificates back when he was mayor. And that made him, of course, a champion of many liberals and gay community in America.

It's part of who he is, part of his beliefs. When he became governor, he got just under 62% of the vote, which was the highest ever for a Democratic candidate. So we'll see what happens with the recall. It'd be interesting if the recall stays steadily around there. That would indicate that as messed up as things have been in California, as much as there's been a lot of resistance to the degree of lockdown and crackdown over COVID, as much as there been economic woes and allegations of the wildfires and things, all of this not being handled properly, and then many businesses leaving California. It would be interesting if, in fact, things stay steady and the vote to keep him in is close to what it was to get him in.

It'd be very interesting to see if there's a major shift or if, in fact, the polls will be surprised and there will be a recall. It's also fascinating to see the leftist attacks on Larry Elder, African-American conservative radio host. We're being told if you vote for Larry Elder, you're voting for racism, you're voting against diversity, and you're voting for white supremacy. That's right.

That's the twisted logic of many on the left, that a vote for a conservative black man is a vote for white supremacy, a vote for racism, a vote against diversity, and a vote for a white male politician is a vote for diversity against white supremacy and against racism. Fascinating narrative, is it not? We'll see how that plays out in the days ahead. And then in the Jewish world, starting tomorrow at sunset, Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset, Yom Kippur, the holiest day on the Jewish calendar, the day in which Jews from around the world seek God in prayer and repentance. Many get religious on this day that aren't normally religious. The religious get very, very focused and for days leading up to this to search their hearts and to ask God for mercy and to be granted forgiveness in another year's life.

And it's a great time to pray for the salvation of the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So, God willing, on the Thursday broadcast, we're going to talk about can there be atonement without blood and respond to some of the views of the rabbis and counter missionaries on that. Then tomorrow's broadcast, I'll be speaking with Dr. Jonathan Sarfati. He's been on with me before as a young earth creationist. So, he absolutely believes in the authority of Scripture.

He is a PhD in chemistry, former New Zealand chess champion. So, he's a brilliant man. He very much stands with me on social, moral, cultural issues. He is against the vaccine mandates, but he is pro-vaccine, pro-COVID vaccine. He believes it's a good vaccination. He believes it's scientifically and medically sound and that it's in our best interest to go ahead and get vaccinated.

So, I only had one guest on previously, a medical doctor who was against the vaccination and had real concerns about it. So, I thought it'd be good for discussion to have Dr. Sarfati on, but he's ready for your questions. He's ready to hear from you with your questions.

If you differ with him, he made clear to me in advance he absolutely welcomes your questions. So, that is a great time to call in if you have questions about the vaccine specifically, if in general you are anti-vax or it's more the specific one and long-term concerns or short-term concerns or what went into the vaccine. So, tomorrow will be a great day to call.

All right. Before I talk to you a bit more about healing and some of my own views and then go to the phone. So, again, we got time for some calls 866-344-TRUTH. Let me just give you an update. I mentioned this briefly on the air yesterday.

So, now I can give the official update. We now have for the first time in 13 plus years a sponsor, someone working with us in a partnership to bless you and to bless our ministry. Talking about Dr. Mark Stengler, who has been widely considered the nation's leading naturopathic medical doctor. So, extensive training in traditional medicine, extensive training in naturopathic medicine in nutrition and my personal physician, even though he lives in California, he's available and he'll call me with apologetics questions because he's an active witness reaching out to the lost on a regular basis. I'll call him with a medical question, but I've been using his health supplements for years. So, if you go to type this in on your website vitaminmission.com. So, if you do a search for it for Google, it's not coming up right, but just type in your browser vitaminmission.com or go to our website askdr.brown.org. When you go there, it'll take you, you'll see it right on the home page on our website. It'll take you to a link where you can find out all the different products Dr. Stengler has and they're many and they're made in the highest possible way, the best way, the healthiest way. You get a 10% discount when you type in Dr. Brown. So, make sure you do that. Check the things out, maybe experiment with things you're interested in or if you know what you're interested in, subscribe to it for a monthly basis, whatever to order.

But go ahead, check things out there and then Dr. Stengler will generously not only give you that discount, but also make a donation with every purchase to our ministry. Okay, said all that to say that number one, I want to hammer this again, especially when there are so many health concerns because of COVID and other issues in our society. Healthy eating and healthy living is number one. Even lots of exercise does not replace healthy eating and healthy living. A healthy diet, getting free from the lousy things that are so much in our culture. I was from fast food to pizza, especially chocolate addiction. I mean, that was most of my adult life until God radically helped me to change a little over seven years ago. So, you know the benefit.

I talk about the benefits all the time. I'm thriving in the midst of them. But a few years back, I started to know, I mean, it's very obvious that my fingers started showing real signs of arthritis. And a couple of them in particular seemed really swollen and starting to twist and then others were swelling. There was some pain, the pain was the minor thing. It was one of those things. I just felt, Lord, I feel like this is supposed to be happening in my body right now. It's not to say I never get sick or have an issue. My mom had real bad arthritis in her fingers for many, many years.

They were really twisted. Anyway, I just felt not right. So, I went to a doctor and I went back to him today for an update.

So, this is two, three years ago. I went to this doctor and Dr. Stanley said, make sure it's actually arthritis. If it is, I want to send you these herbal supplements, Joint Plus.

And you take these and let's see what the results are. So, doctor checked me out. Yes, it was arthritis. And he gave me medicine to put on them each night. And you just put like a kind of rubber retainer thing over your fingers.

And it's kind of messy, but I put them on the worst fingers. And immediately I saw some of the swelling start to reduce, but it was medicine. And I didn't want to be taking medicine every day. Then that did its work and it stopped there.

Went so far and stopped. I thought, okay, let's just see what the herbal supplements do. So, stopped with the medicine, stopped with anything else, just been taking them.

Went back on x-rays today and the doctor was really pleased. He said that normally this would be degenerating. In other words, it does a certain thing. It affects the joints. So, you can't reverse that.

It's something happened to the bone. But he said, normally it gets worse. I'm just giving this update.

I'm not going to be talking about this every day, but it's relevant. It just happened. And he said, absolutely no change from when I was in two and a half years ago, whatever the exact date was. Absolutely no change, which to him was a total win.

And I said, hey, I've been taking these herbal supplements. So, in other words, the worst part of it, the outward stuff, that changed quickly. And then everything stopped. So, there has been no degeneration at all. And it was degenerating rapidly.

I mean, over a one or two year period, I saw some really negative results. And then just telling my own story. So, I am a firm believer in putting healthy food in my body day and night, starting with my main meal, which is after radio late afternoon, early evening, which is a massive salad filling up a four quart bowl. Yeah.

Filling it up. One day I got to make a video making a salad at home. That'd probably go viral.

It'd be our greatest video ever. But I'm talking about a ton of greens and tomatoes and onions and green and red peppers and cucumbers and raw organic pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds and maybe bean sprouts or something else. And I'm thriving by God's grace as a result of it. So, I just want to encourage you as a friend, as someone cheering you on, to really pray about serious lifestyle changes.

None of it would save your life. It'll improve the quality of your life. And hey, we need you around. We need you around on the front lines. Your family needs you. So, let's give it consideration. And these healthy supplements will definitely help as well. All right.

We'll be right back. Dr. Michael Brown. You know, I'm looking at a discussion over on Facebook and people often say, well, if you have the gifted feeling, just go clear out a children's hospital. It'd be wonderful if it worked like that.

It'd be wonderful if it was just up to us. But I don't know anyone on the planet today with a greater anointing to heal than Paul had. And Paul didn't clear out every sick person everywhere he went. What happens in an occasion, Acts the 28th chapter? But where do you read in the Bible, in the New Testament, that in every location where the apostles went, that they cleared out every sick person? I mean, where is there even a hint of that? And why did Paul leave Trophimus sick in Miletus?

And why did he tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problems because wine was considered to be medicinal? Just asking out of curiosity. That doesn't mean God's not here. He is. And there are many, many documented miracles. We'll talk about that. But just wanted to comment on that. 866-34-TRUTH.

All right, let us go over to Alex in Buffalo, New York. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hi, I had a question about 2 Timothy chapter 3. It says that in the last days, people will do all these things and be able to work as people. So, it seems like most people today have at least some of those qualities, you know what I mean?

Yep, as you could say 100 years ago and 200 years ago and 500 years ago and 5,000 years ago. In other words, it's a picture of the human race. Right, so is that avoid those people and stay away from them? Because most people are like that. Right, right.

So, let's look at it. First, Paul is giving Timothy a warning, basically saying in these last days in which we live, don't think that everything is just going to somehow be wonderful and the kingdom of God is going to change everything. He says because the last days in the writers of the New Testament started when Jesus died and rose from the dead up until today. We have been in the last days for 2,000 years. So, he says, but understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty for people to be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness but denying its power.

Avoid such people. So, the first thing is Paul is giving Timothy counsel for his own day. In other words, Paul is saying in these last days in which we live, there are going to be treacherous times and people are going to be filled with all kinds of evil.

That's not going to change and there are even going to be people who have some form of religion, form of godliness, but deny its power. So, as far as our fellowship, as far as our throwing ourselves into something with someone, we avoid those kinds of people. As far as reaching them with the Gospel, those are the very ones we're looking to reach. I mean, he goes on to talk about the false teachers, right? For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning, never able to arrive in the knowledge of the truth. So, he's really talking about the false teachers and the dangerous people out there trying to infiltrate or trying to confuse.

So, on the one hand, hey, watch yourself. Stay away from these kind of bad people as far as your circle of friends and associates. As far as those that you reach with the Gospel, that's where we go. We go to the worst of sinners and Paul even speaks of himself in 1 Timothy 1 as the worst of sinners in terms of how he was living before he came to faith.

So, as far as the sin of the world, 2 Corinthians 6, come out from among them. Be separate. Don't get entangled. As far as the people of the world, go reach them. Go into all the world and make disciples. So, that's how I understand it.

It was counsel for Timothy, then it remains counsel for us today. You know, watch out who you hang out with. Watch out, you know, where you go with your associations and your, you know, your comrades, etc., comrades in arms.

At the same time, go into the world to reach people. You know, look, it would be like me telling people, hey, stay away from those bars. Stay away from those strip clubs. You know, stay away from those drug dealing areas of the city. It's bad stuff. You want to stay away from it.

At the same time, if you can reach a stripper, if you can reach a drunkard, if you can reach a drug dealer, reach them with the gospel. Okay, thank you. You bet.

Sure thing. All right, tell you what, I'm just going to stay on the subject of healing for a moment and then going to bring on my guest, Elijah Stevens, and you're really going to enjoy what he has to say in this documentary that's being released because he really raises good questions and he really comes at things with the questions a skeptic would ask. And you see, in my own life, based on my experience and a misreading of scripture, I became very skeptical about God healing today. When I was first saved, I was miraculously healed of hives. If you've ever had it in a terrible itch condition and you get like these, what do you call them, not blemishes, you know, these blotches just popping up all over your skin. I mean, they're thick and they're big and it's just all down my back and legs and arms and it was misery. And anyway, when it came back after going away, God instantly healed me and answered a prayer. It was quite stunning, especially when you see how bad they are all over your body and then, boom, disappear within two minutes after prayer. But as years went on, you know, we pray for someone that was crippled and they couldn't walk in the same condition or blind in one eye and they prayed, they're still blind in one eye.

So, based on negative experiences and people in my church telling me, oh, well, we saw this in the old days, it was amazing and you're going to see it in the future and it's happening over in China or it's happening over in India or it's happening over in Africa. And I'd be thinking, oh, hang on, why not here? Why not now? Why always yesterday, tomorrow, why not today? Why always someone else, why not here?

Somewhere else, why not here? So, that's what happened and I started to get more skeptical. As I read the Word, I just noticed how much emphasis there was in the Old Testament of God smiting and healing, failing to make the very simple logical deduction that that was judgment for sin, not an expression of his heart to bless his people, because the expression of his heart to bless his people is he revealed himself as divine healer. So, I saw those things through clouded vision because of my bad experiences and because of leaving my first love and becoming more intellectually oriented and less intimate with God. And then when God really shook me and awakened me late 82, early 83, and people started testifying of being healed in our congregation. And they would say, yes, and I held to the Scripture and I quoted it and God healed me.

And there were some pretty serious conditions, you know, people battled for some years. And I thought, well, but wait, wait, that's not what the verse means. They misinterpreted that verse. And then it seemed to me that the people with the greatest healing ministries misused the Scriptures. And people like me who were using the Scripture so rightly weren't seeing healing.

I thought, okay, something's not lining up here. Maybe these people have faith in the faith and need better understanding of the word. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the word.

Maybe there's somewhere in between. That's why I devoted so much time to studying the subject of healing. That's why I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word for healing. That's why subsequently published Israel's Divine Healer, expanding, taking about 20% of the doctoral dissertation material and then 80% new for the book Israel's Divine Healer. So, my doctoral thesis came out in 85, or I finished it then, and then Israel's Divine Healer came out in 95.

And while writing that book, I just did a fresh study of the whole Bible. I went through every verse in the Bible, just read the Bible, I still have that Bible somewhere, and just highlight it with the yellow highlighter, every verse having anything to do with sickness or disease. And the more I read it, the clearer it was to me based on Scripture that sickness in and of itself is negative. Sickness in and of itself is part of the curse, part of the fall, sometimes part of divine judgment or consequence of our specific sin, but always in and of itself is bad. In other words, you never wish sickness and disease on someone as a blessing. Oh, may you be blessed with sickness.

You're getting couples getting married, you send them greetings and a card with blessings, and we bless you with, we pray for sickness for you and your spouse all the days of your life and for children to be sick. No, you don't do that because we recognize that the thing in and of itself is bad. God can bring good out of sickness. Some of the holiest, godliest people on the planet today are sick, and there are plenty of healthy sinners. I'm not saying this is a proof of godliness. What I am saying is that sickness in and of itself is bad, healing in and of itself is good, and often a sign of God's compassion, and often a sign of his power, and often a sign that Jesus has risen from the dead and sent to spirit. And when I've put out questions on Facebook and done surveys and said, hey, are you aware firsthand, either in your own life or someone close to you, a documented medical miracle, I've been floored by the results. I mean, and what people have written and sent in, and even accounts with doctors saying, hey, we have to attribute this to something beyond our power. If you call it a miracle, answer to prayer, but it's clearly beyond our power, and we didn't do this, and this can't be done. This doesn't happen.

This doesn't happen. And there is a lot of documentation about this because God is moving, but I don't base my views on healing on the documentation or what I've seen with my eyes. I base it on the word. That's why I believe in divine healing today and gifts of healing for today because of what the Bible says. So, we come back. We're going to find out about a very interesting journey in the quest for documentation of divine healing with my guest, Elijah Stevens. And if you have a question, we may be able to take some calls as well. 866-344.

We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-344-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Is God really working miracles today in response to prayer in Jesus' name? If so, are they documented?

If so, where is the documentation? And what of all the reports that we hear, Charismatic Pentecostal Ministries, some behind the scenes, some very public about healing and miracles today? Is it really happening? Are the critics right?

It's just hype. It's just reports that when you dig deeper, you find out there's nothing really there. We're going to discuss this today with Elijah Stevens. I got an email a few months back mentioning a documentary that Elijah was working on, and it was a fascinating subject where he decides to go in search of the proof. And it's it's really well done because if you believe in healing today, you'll find voices there.

If you don't believe in healing today, you'll find voices there. So I want to see where Elijah's at with this and the purpose of the documentary and how you'll be able to watch it. So Elijah, thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire.

Thanks for having me, Dr. Brown. All right, so I've got to be totally honest. Early on in the documentary, you start introducing yourself and your story. And my first question is, why do I want to know about your story? Well, the more you told your story, the more I thought, wow, this is an essential part of the story.

So first, in your own personal life, Elijah, and as you weave it into the documentary, how does your own personal journey tie in with the Send Proof movie? Oh, well, as I talk about in the movie, I grew up in Christian home. At the same time, I experienced a lot of abuse. And so it made me question if God's real. And then I had a powerful conversion experience.

And then after that, I started studying philosophy in college. And that really made me question God's existence. And I started looking into the supernatural as maybe another modality for showing that God is real. And I started experiencing stuff, but I didn't see objective evidence for it in the form of medical records, and then people writing on that type of stuff at the time. And so I started questioning some things, but at the same time, I was still experiencing God as a pastor. And then my senior pastor left the space and said, there's no God, there's no evidence for miracles. And I started going, well, that's a big issue, if that's true.

And if healing miracles happen, there has to be some type of evidence for this stuff. And so it's sitting on a journey to look for it. Got it. So just to pause there for a moment. So you were in a setting, you've done your studies, degree in philosophy and science and religion, so a bachelor's and master's.

So you know how to think about these issues. And then you've worked for years in charismatic circles like Vineyard and Bethel that strongly believe in healing. The pastor that fell away from his faith, was he previously charismatic?

He was Vineyard. We led charismatic ministry schools together. We prayed for the sick all the time. We experienced deliverance together. And so he was fully charismatic. Got it.

Right. And of course, this is part of the journey, part of the documentary. Did it jar you on a personal level because of his role? You're working together, him being a leader in your life, and now he's not only questioning some of his Christian beliefs, but denying the existence of God. How deeply did that impact you? It impacted me a lot. It's not so much the problem that, you know, he fell away from the faith or started questioning stuff.

Let me back up. Not that he fell away from the faith. That jarred me. Because I went through a season of questioning. It's just I came out on the other side, having studied apologetics, more confident, you know, the resurrection happened. And he had the opposite experience of reading Dawkins and Hitchens and leaving the faith. But I think one of the things I remember as I became a charismatic that, you know, you have some people, and I even experienced this at the time, you kind of shut the intellectual side off to develop the existential. So I wasn't reading like I was in college. And I was focusing on, well, how do I go out and pray for the sick?

How do I overcome this fear and that fear? And so I think it put me in this position where I'm like, we have to develop both of these in the church. We have to develop the existential side and the intellectual side in people, because we don't know when the enemy might attack on purely intellectual things. Got it. Right. So strong in faith, strong in heart, strong in mind, living God with heart, soul, mind, spirit, spirit and truth.

These are essential things. And often, we hit one wall or the other, you know, the wall of just turn your mind off and just believe or the wall of, well, it has to be rationally explicable to me if I'm going to believe. And there is, of course, a healthy balance. And often in our charismatic circles, we'll put a lot of emphasis on the spiritual experience, but be lacking the apologetic and the knowledge part. And sometimes in the non-charismatic side, it's the opposite. There's the lack of experience, but the strength and intellect in either one of those is very vulnerable.

Either one can be vulnerable. So what motivated you then to do this movie, Send Proof? And friends, like I said, in introducing Elijah, you'll find both voices represented. I thought you did a really good job as a believer in healing today and raising the questions and challenging the evidence so that a skeptic or someone questioning could watch and say, okay, this guy's doing a fair job.

You're doing it like a neutral journalist. And then urging people, and the movie is not primarily just to say God heals today, but to say if you've seen it, send the proof. Okay, we may have lost Elijah there for a second. So Grayson, if you could just check, if we lost him for a second, we'll get him reconnected and get on with our interview and let you know how you can see this Send Proof documentary. But that's what I found interesting because you see a certain thing, you say, okay, that's the proof I'm looking for. That's sufficient evidence.

I'm satisfied. But he's like, well, is there more? Or what does the research say?

Or what's actually out there? And then ends the documentary with an appeal to say if you have something documented, then we want to see it. So Elijah, along the way, aside from praying for the man on the street and they say the pain left and all of that, and obviously you don't have medical documentation, and on the video you have some doctors explaining, hey, look, not everyone wants to get medical documentation. You know, they're healed.

This is the last thing. We'll go back to the doctor, go back to the records, have your thing questioned. So, hey, I'm happy enough if I had a bad condition for years and it's gone, and it's 10 years and it's gone, I'm happy enough with that regardless of, you know, that's how some will feel, medical confirmation.

But what are some of the things that you discovered on this journey as you started asking the hard questions? I discovered that there are legitimate cases that happen right after prayer where you can have before and after records and there's no non-naturalistic explanation. If you're skeptic, you're... I don't even believe God exists.

That may not convince you. If you think God exists, I think the case is so strong, you're going to say this is a miracle. I also found it fascinating talking with skeptics who... One of my favorite people in the movie is Jacqueline Bussman. She's an atheist, but she researched 1400 miracles at the Vatican, and she's like, this is the best science of the time.

She's a medical historian. She's like, these people really cared about science and it really impressed me. And so I think inside of the tradition of Christianity, there is this huge hunger for science. Christianity birthed science. Francis Bacon was a scientist.

You know, Galileo was a Christian. And so I think that for whatever reason, we've divided the intellect and the supernatural, and I just want to see the two put back together. Yeah, it is so important.

And there is work being done. You know, Craig Keener's work on miracles, Randy Clark's research, others, Dr. Candy Brown and others that you interview or cite in the documentary. Hey, folks that are interested in this, where do they go to find out more? Sendproof.com, S-E-N-D, proof.com.

All right, sendproof.com. You'll want to check this out, whether you consider yourself a skeptic or a cessationist or a continuationist or a charismatic or a believer in miracles, sendproof.com. Was there medical testing that was actually done in Mozambique? Yeah, Dr. Candy Brown took a team of researchers, and she tested the blind and deaf before and after prayer, found significant results, and she actually got the results published in a peer-reviewed medical journal called the Southern Medical Journal.

I think it's been out for nine or ten years now. Yeah, so in other words, you hear claims, well, this is happening in Mozambique. Oh, yeah, Mozambique, right, sure, all the way in Africa, right, or in the poor communities, right, and who's documenting it. So they went and documented it and, again, saw distinct changes, some fairly radical, and put all this out. And on the video, again, sendproof.com, friends, to find out more. You interview folks like the amazing Randy, whom I remember as a boy, you know, when he would dispute, you know, that someone has ESP and stuff like that, or duplicate apparent, like, supernatural feats, and then Dr. Michael Shermer, well-known atheist. So I want to talk more about that in a moment, but what did you find when you talked to these people? Did you find them to be hostile mockers, open, honest? What was your impression?

I think they are humans trying to wrestle with ultimate questions. They fall into place I disagree with, but all of them were generous. I enjoyed talking to John Loftus and Michael Shermer and amazing Randy, but I just wanted to pull out their side. I wasn't trying to persuade them to view what I view, but I still I still think there's so much evidence for the resurrection of Christ that I just can't take their position.

Got it. So even aside from the question of healing and miracles today, on an intellectual level, the powerful case that can be made for resurrection, and Elijah, you did not make these people look bad. They gave their views, and then you built on their views.

You built on their challenges. So we've got more to talk about. I want to find out about some striking miracles today. Go to SendProof.com to find out more about this documentary.

We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We're talking about the forthcoming documentary, SendProof.com.

Elijah Stevens has put this together and is on the air with us. Elijah, as you spoke to people who have documented miracles like Professor Craig Keener and then has given the intellectual rationale, biblically speaking, for miracles, and then people like Dr. Randy Clark, who have both focused on divine healing and then sought to document it, his doctoral dissertation documenting people with mental implants and what happened to them after prayer. Were there any things that really struck you like, wow, this is amazing, or was it kind of a cumulative effect of a lot of miracles? I think the most interesting, and I'll go back to her, was talking to Dr. Jacqueline Duffin, who was an atheist who said, I believe in miracles.

There's things science can't explain. But in talking with her, she said, one of the things I fear for Christians is that they look too hard to science to confirm and verify miracles. And so she, as a medical historian, she said when she used to study miracles, that before there was a cure for tuberculosis, Christians would write about prayer for healing of tuberculosis. And now that there's a cure, there's still parts of Africa where people aren't exposed to medicine. And she's like, I'm sure there's people praying for them, but the church won't accept those as miracles.

And I thought, I have that blind spot, is that as soon as there is a cure for something and prayer comes along, it's a lot easier for me to dismiss it. Got it. Very interesting. Very interesting.

Very interesting. There is a whole group of doctors, researchers that are actually going through records. You mentioned this one woman who looked at the Vatican records, but there's research going on in an ongoing way. You touch on that in the documentary.

Tell us about that. There's a group called the Global Medical Research Institute, and the purpose of the movie, and the reason I call it Sin Proof is the thrust of it is I want the church to sin in those medical records so that the Global Medical Research Institute can research cases and publish them in peer-reviewed medical journals. Because what that affects is, well, theologians and philosophers can publish these in theological journals, and we start building a series of case studies of miracles to challenge the naturalistic worldview. If a miracle occurs in modern times, it lends weight to the idea the resurrection could happen, that God could create a world. And so I think it's a new pathway apologetically to undermining naturalism.

Got it. So there are folks analyzing miracle claims, going through the medical evidence, and they're doing it as doctors. They're not doing it, praise the Lord, you know, glory to God, without God's care, the evidence says, no, they're doing it carefully, and there are certain thresholds that they're looking for. And is it your impression that most of what God is doing in the miraculous is not being broadcast on big screen Christian TV? In other words, it's not like a public display is much happening behind the scenes or on the streets or in impoverished places where the gospel is going? Is that a fair impression?

I think that's very fair, and I think a lot of it's not documentable. If God gives someone a prophetic dream, I mean, there's no evidence left behind. And so I think what happens is, just because we're not exposed to something, we think it's more rare, when in reality, all around the world today, God is interacting, he's saving people today, he's healing people today, people are being delivered, but most of us just live our normal lives. We go to work, we come home, take care of the kids, and it just seems like, you know, it's very rare for this stuff to happen. Right, so those divine interactions, like you say, how do you prove it, where you have a certain impression to call a person on a particular day, only to find out that at that specific moment, they were about to commit suicide and that call saves their lives.

Okay, a skeptic could call a coincidence, but when you see things happen over and over and over again, the evidence is amazing. And then also, many people don't have documented evidence of the bad condition because of where they grew up, the situation in which they grew up. There were no doctors around. It's just, yeah, my son's always been blind.

That's the reality. Now he's four years old and he can see after prayer. You don't need medical documentation for that person.

A skeptic would say, well, where is it? But, you know, you even tell the story of, and again, friends, check out sendproof.com. You'll want to see this one with your own eyes, but a woman who was blind for years and it wasn't someone laying hands on her, it was a simple answer to prayer. It's an amazing story. Yeah. Yeah.

I agree. So in that case, she was blind for 13 years, macular degeneration. They have four records from the Mayo Clinic afterwards. So she was legally blind, 2200 is legal blindness. And I think her eyesight was worse than that. And she got prayer and instantaneously went back to 2040, which is near perfect vision.

Yeah. And it's a moving story, too. And it's just one of these things of God's love. It's not the famous evangelist or the big healing anointing.

It's a husband and wife opening their hearts to the Lord and seeking Him and Him graciously coming and touching. And what's amazing is that the whole world doesn't know the story, even though it happened. In other words, there's so many miracles that even you document in the movie, you think, well, that should be enough to convince everybody and yet life still goes on.

So the more word we can get out, the more glory comes to God. If folks say, hey, I've got friends, not just a story or a testimony, that's wonderful, but just for this project, it needs to be medically documented. So if you have medical evidence of a miracle in your life or someone that you're directly involved with, Elijah, do they just go to sendproof.com to send it, or is there somewhere else where they send it? Yes, we'll have a testimony button either by the end of the day or in the next one to two days. I've talked to my web team about that, but I want that so bad. I think my vision is in the next 10 years to see 100 case studies done.

And I think it will transform the way that we view the supernatural. All right, so to check out, friends, the documentary itself, you can do that right now. Get more info by going to sendproof.com. And to be safe, if you've got something you want to send in, check early next week, again, to see if there's a testimony button, and then that will give you instructions as to what to do.

And that is a whole proof of it. In your own life, Elijah, just in the minute or two we have left, you continue to pray for the sick. Would you say that you are an eyewitness to God working miracles in people's lives? Yeah, and I have amazing stories. I can't document those stories, but I've definitely seen miracles that have blown my mind.

Well, just give us one quick example. Okay, a quick example is, one Sunday at Sunday school, I was praying for a guy with a bone-on-bone knee injury. He had been in a motorcycle accident, walked with a cane, so he had no cartilage, and so it's very painful to walk.

He walks very slow. And during that week, we were doing evangelism, and a friend just told me about a miracle of a man who she had prayed for who had a bone-on-bone knee injury. And I thought to myself, if I ever see the guy I saw in Sunday school again, I will tell him that story and offer to pray again, because it just excited my faith so much. And it just so happened, as we were driving down the road, I see that guy, and I tell my friend about it, and so he turns the car around, and we flag the guy down into a lumberyard, and I tell him the story, and we pray for him, and then he jumps up and down to test it out. And when that happens, he falls to his knees and just starts crying. And then he runs off, and he runs, and he doesn't come back.

And like, five or ten minutes go by, and I'm like, we've got to go. So we get back in our car, and we're driving down the interstate, and I see this guy running up the highway with his hands in the air, and I could see him mousing, thank you Jesus, thank you Jesus, thank you Jesus. And the next week, I saw him at church, and I would have him test it out for five or six weeks straight, just because I've got this skeptical side in me, where he would jump up and down, and he's like, I'm perfectly healed. And I mean, there's nothing more joyful than praying for a sick person that's being a miracle.

Yeah, and because God is so real to them at that moment, you know, that's the physical miracle is wonderful, but it's the divine reality which is the awe of it all. He's alive, Jesus is alive, he's risen from the dead, this is real. All right, friends, find out about the documentary SendProof.com, and if you have proof you want to send, so we're broadcasting today September 14th, so wait a few days or even wait a week, September 21st, check the website again, look for a testimony button, and if you have documented medical testimony of miracles in response to prayer in Jesus' name, by all means, send it in. Hey, Elijah, keep up the good work, keep glorifying Jesus, and we know that God's ways will be vindicated on the earth. I appreciate it. Amen, thank you, I appreciate you.

All right, that's it, friends, we are out of time. You do not want to miss tomorrow's broadcast. I'm going to have a pro-COVID vaccine, Christian scholar, PhD in chemistry. You've got questions about the vaccine from any level, any angle. Tomorrow's your day to call. Another program powered by the Truth Network.