A Discussion About Christian Leaders and Politics

Has the gospel become too politicized in America today? It's time for, The Line of Fire, with your host, activist, Michael Brown, here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to The Line of Fire.

This is Michael Brown. I'm not taking your calls today, but I have a colleague, Messianic Jewish leader, lawyer, a colleague in Israel. We're going to be having a lively discussion about evangelicals in America, followers of Jesus in America. Have we become too politicized? Has that now come to a head with the evangelical support of Donald Trump?

Has that hurt the gospel more than it has helped the gospel? Jamie Cowan is presently a partner in Cohen, Decker, Pax, and Brosh Law offices in Tel Aviv. He served as a Messianic rabbi in Israel, in the States. He's been president of Russian Immigration Services in Richmond, Virginia, president of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations. Back in the late 70s, mid 80s, he was chief counsel to US Senate subcommittee and assistant to the majority whip of the US Senate.

So he's got a lot of experience within government and then as a leader in ministry, now a lawyer and a Messianic Jew in Israel. And Jamie and I have known each other for decades. We just got back in touch recently because of some conversation we were having about these very issues. But Jamie, welcome to The Line of Fire.

Thanks for joining us. When did you find out about your family history and how your name became Cowan? Well, that's a good question. I was born in Cohen, C-O-H-E-N, Jewish name. But my father, when I was two years old, he changed it to Cowan because he was going into politics. And I found out probably when I was late, maybe early teens or even before that, had been Cohen. But he explained why I was Cowan. In the 1950s, when he went into politics being a Jew, American politics was not common and not popular.

And potentially, it could be potentially a source of discrimination. So that was the reason for the name change. And you know, that was it. Now in Israel, are you Cowan? Or are you still Cowan? I am Cowan. That's a whole nother story, which would take up a whole nother broadcast. That all happened.

It's not really worth it. But yes, I'm Cowan in Israel. As I was introducing you, I said, wait a second, wait a second.

When I was looking at, OK, partner in Cohen, Decker, wait a second. So, yeah, the light went on for me. So, Jamie, you were very much involved in the political scene. I remember newsletters that you would put out while you were in ministry and you would talk about the issues in the society, talk about cultural issues. I don't remember you endorsing candidates, but I do remember you talking about issues. But but you feel that we've become way too politicized in America. So explain what you feel is the problem and how it's come to a head with Donald Trump. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Great question. You know, I was I was like you said, I was working in the Congress in the mid from the mid 70s until the mid 80s. And, you know, when I was there is when the moral majority was formed. I mean, it was formed in 1979. And and I remember I remember its formation very, very well. I remember a number of the evangelical leaders who were involved with it and they were making it, you know, basically raising up kind of a political force to affect cultural change in America. And I was honestly I was really disturbed. I felt like it was it was going to have a negative backlash.

I see the gospel as being something quite quite different and transformational in and of itself without forcing through legislation and stuff, which can really backfire. And then I ultimately a few years later, in the early 80s, Pat Robertson was up to see my boss, the senator. And I was able to have dialogue with him personally and privately about the issues because Pat Robertson had become increasingly more political in the early years. He really wasn't even though his father was a U.S. senator earlier. But and I dialogue with him and I just told him, I said, you know, I think you really make I think it's a big mistake. You know, I think it's just going to ultimately really backfire and so on. I mean, he didn't really he didn't share my view at all, especially in light of the fact that he ended up running for president a few years later.

But so, you know, over the years, I've just really seen this happen. It was in 1990, when I took over the congregation in Richmond, Virginia, and really all those years, 22 years, I never spoke about politics at all, even though I have more political background really than anybody there. I just didn't do it. I didn't feel it was appropriate.

You know, I encourage people to vote. But that was about it. The one time where I spoke to the subject was during the Obama election at the first Obama election 2008, when a lot of negative things were being said about Obama, and they were starting to creep into the congregation. In other words, just, you know, it was creating division. And so I spoke, I gave a talk called the religion in politics, and just focused on the history of religion and state religion and state religion and politics and how that has really created some very serious problems throughout history. And that really, really think the constitutional writers had had a good idea in mind of keeping church and state separate but providing for freedom of worship. And you know, the United States, quite a religious country.

It's great. So that calm things down, I think in our congregation, but, you know, we moved to Israel in 2011. And things just got more progressively heated in the United States.

And it's culminated in the election of Donald Trump. And wow, it's just really I mean, I don't have to tell anybody here listeners. I mean, it's just like everything's on fire.

And it's just like, crazy. Right. So let me let me just jump in. And we want to flesh this out. Because in a lot of ways, Jamie, and I absolutely agree, totally agree. And I could point to things I've written for years, saying that that our hope is in the Gospel of the Great Commission, not in government. And yet I do believe we have some areas of difference.

So we want to we want to flesh these things out. But Jamie, I was not focused on moral majority or anything back in those days. But James Robison, who's a dear friend of mine now, was with them in the early days with Jerry Falwell and all those. He didn't like the name moral majority. And he was concerned that it would become an appendage of the Republican Party in certain ways that has happened.

And the politicized the association of a group with a political party can be very damaging. But let me just back this up and ask philosophically, if you would have had the exact same standpoint as a pastor during the days of slavery in America, would you have said, hey, church state separation, we don't get involved with legislating morality and things like that? Would you have conducted yourself the same way or would you have said as disciples, as as followers of Jesus, we need to combat this moral and social evil both on the ground and politically?

Yeah, no, that's an excellent question. And yes, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I see our role as believers as having a prophetic voice into society and into government. And so when we see injustice, when we see inequality, whatever, we are to speak it forth.

And so I, you know, I have no in fact, not only I have no problem, but I've always, you know, personally, I've been pro life, since I've been a believer and been been very active in that kind of that movement was on the board of the crisis pregnancy center for many years in Virginia, and stuff. And so, you know, as far as speaking into societal issues, absolutely, I think it's the example is in the gospel and in the prophets constantly. And so obviously, with slavery, you speak against it. I think speaking against abortion is valid. I think speaking against income equality is valid. Racism is valid, all these, you know, there's like tons of things that we can address. I think it's valid. I think the big problem though is when is when leaders begin to publicly support and endorse political candidates associate themselves with a particular political party. I think that is very, very dangerous. And I believe what happens is, is that the believers get ends up getting used as tools of the political leadership. That's what ends up happening. Yeah, there's no question that we often get used.

No question about that whatsoever. And I want to come back to the prophetic voice and speaking to issues. But first, in with with full candor, and without worrying about offending many of my viewers and listeners who have voted for Donald Trump, what is your view of what our public association with Donald Trump has done to the reputation of the gospel just speak totally freely? Yeah, I think it's been very, very damaging.

I, you know, I've produced numerous vlogs on my own YouTube channel and done numerous writings. And I've said again, and again, that, you know, I don't really care who people vote for people want to vote for Donald Trump or Joe Biden or some independent person. That's up to them. You know, I think, however, when we as believers publicly associate ourselves with any politician, especially one who is, you know, honestly, is just lives an outwardly ungodly life and is really in his character and in his speech is the antithesis of Jesus the Messiah. Well, when we when we make when we associate with that, with that person in that whatever the reason is for whether because it's because we're supporting his policies and whatever, blah, blah, blah, I think we're, we're just, we're making ourselves look like a bunch of hypocrites. And so really, I have to be honest that I believe over 50% of the United States, which is not going to vote for Donald Trump is also going to be turned off to the gospel for the for the very reason of association. I think that's the big problem. Right. So obviously one reason I wrote evangelicals at the crossroads when we passed the Trump test was to say, can we vote for Donald Trump and even be known as voting for Donald Trump without compromising our gospel witness?

I believe there's a way to do that. And I believe and I agree with Jamie that to the extent we have been apologists for the president or defenders of the president or just blind supporters that we really have damaged the cause of the gospel. No question. But Jamie, my experience has been that I got far more resistance, far more hatred from the world far more pushback against the gospel just for for being a prophetic voice than for saying I was voting for Donald Trump. In other words, following that logic that if I take a public stand that it's going to hurt the message of the gospel, then I would never speak out about controversial moral and cultural issues. So we've got about a minute before the break, but just start to respond to that. Well, first I would just say that being a messianic Jew, I think you and I are both well aware of opposition to our faith, especially from the Jewish community and stuff. So, you know, that that's accepted.

Yeah. I you know, look, I think certainly the positions that we take are not going to be necessarily popular with with a culture that's veering off from what we might call biblical standards. But I think the reality is I've heard it again and again. I've seen it in polls that many, many of the younger generation are just turned off because of the associations with Donald Trump and with the Republican Party and what they consider intolerance and so on. And I just think we need to step back again. Who you vote for? Great.

It doesn't matter. But we need to step back from public association. I think it's a huge error. All right, friends, we're going to continue this discussion with Jamie Cowan, really, Cohen taking time in Israel. And we won't be taking calls so we can we can really talk this through. And and look, these are these are big issues. These are important issues. One of my friends in Australia said that his witnessing his outreach in American and Australia has been hurt because of Christian association with Trump in America.

What do we do about it? It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm speaking with a friend and colleague in Israel, Jamie Cohen. Jamie is an attorney. He has been a messianic Jewish leader for many years. And we're discussing evangelicals and politics, followers of Yeshua and political involvement. And when we openly identify with the party, when we openly identify with a candidate and especially when leaders endorse that person, then Jamie saying, look, it has a negative impact on the gospel because people will now think, OK, well, Franklin Graham, he's famous Christian leader and Robert Jeffress, he's a famous Christian leader. And this one and that one and they're openly supporting Donald Trump. So does that mean that to follow Jesus, I have to agree with Donald Trump?

Or what if I'm interested in Jesus, but I don't like Donald Trump to see come along? I'm oversimplifying, but it's kind of the way it it breaks down. So, Jamie, here's here's my question for you. You're saying that we should vote and we should be involved in the political system because it's it's the world in which we live, just like in Israel. You get to vote.

It's it's a very interesting democratic system there, but but you get to cast a vote. It's our public association that's problematic. So let's let's let's go back to, say, controversial issues like homosexual activism. When when Franklin Graham was banned from speaking at certain events in England this year, they were this different venues canceled out. The reasons that they canceled the given reasons were primarily the fact that he opposed gay marriage and things like that. And then secondarily, that he had spoken against Islam.

But aren't those things that we should be doing as followers of Jesus? In fact, in other words, the fact that he was a Trump supporter really wasn't the issue at all. That didn't come up at all. When Samaritan's Purse got got rejected from being in New York as they were serving covid victims, it was entirely over the LGBT issues.

The Trump thing really was distant, if even there at all. So, again, if we if we're thinking that's going to hurt the gospel and yet you want us to be a prophetic voice by being a prophetic voice, that's going to raise these other issues as as baggage with the gospel, won't it? Yeah, no, it's perfectly valid. And, you know, I just, I think the question becomes is, you know, what is what is our primary mission? You know, whatever it is, I mean, obviously, Samaritan's Purse, the example that you're giving is like humanitarianism, you know, in other words, reaching the people reaching people with the gospel through good, you know, good works, like through through service projects and stuff like that, which is great. So the question then becomes, is why does somebody like that need to take like a really public position as a Christian leader against, you know, homosexuality or homosexual activism and stuff like that?

I'm not I'm not for that, but don't get me wrong. But in other words, what is what is the mission of whatever you're doing? And does it end up compromising your ultimate mission by the stands that you might be taking?

So as an example, I'll give you a perfect example. You know, our congregation in Virginia was right across the street from Virginia's largest abortion clinic directly across the street. We had picketers that would come out and stand in front of our congregation and theirs on Saturday mornings when people would come and would just it would be like chaos and stuff. So I mean, you know, so what happened was early on, we had some people who were very involved in anti abortion activism, and they wanted to put pamphlets on our entrance tables of like, dead babies, you know, of dead, you know, unborn babies and stuff like that is to show that we were pro life and so on.

And so I said, No way. It's not that I was not not that I'm a pro abortion, absolutely the opposite. But in other words, my mission, our mission as a congregation was to see Jewish people come to faith in Jesus, most Jews are pro abortion.

So you think they walk in the door, they see this dead baby, you know, on some pamphlet, and out they go, then everyone hear the message. So the question is, what is our essential message, and then to make sure that that doesn't end up getting compromised through stuff that unfortunately, are somewhat, you know, in my view, would be side issues. So that's how we respond. Right. So so let me push back on that, with all respect, Jamie, and say that, okay, first, you know, the question is, where does one draw the line?

Right? If if if if there were concentration camps across the street, if there were crematoria for Jews that were being killed across the street Nazi Germany, do we not speak up because many people in Germany thought that Hitler was a good guy and didn't realize all the evils. And if we mixed Hitler in with the gospel, then then people would get confused on this. And, you know, so the goal of the Great Commission is to make disciples. And the question is, how do disciples live? And disciples are now going to seek first the kingdom of Godness, righteousness, they're going to be those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the kingdom of God's that matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, they're going to be moved to address these issues.

So at what point did they now graduate to addressing these? Because what I hear day and night, Jamie, I was called by the Lord in 2004, to my surprise, to begin addressing homosexual issues. And I got a commission from the Lord, reach out and resist, reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda with courage. I have been in constant demand since then, because there is a massive crisis in the society and in the church.

And not a day goes by where someone is not saying, Dr. Brown, thank you. Thank you for speaking out. There are so few. We feel like we're losing our minds. We feel like no one is articulating our position. We're seeing this ideology spread through us. We're watching our kids fall away from Jesus, because they are so influenced by the world around them. And they're getting so pulled in these anti Christian movements. And our very freedoms of religion are being taken away by this activism. Thank God you've been a lifeline for me.

And now I have something to help my family with. How can I not speak out the fact I get hated and mocked for it? So be it. But look, we want Jewish people to hear the message of Jesus. But we know that Jesus is the thing they're resisting most.

And yet we know it's the proclamation in the power of the spear that's going to turn hard. So this is where I this is where I struggle. I agree with so much of what you're saying about getting overly political, being an appendage of political party being used by that party, being associated with a particular candidate more than we're associated with Jesus. Those are all real issues. And I continue to address that.

And you and I agree on those things. But where where I'm having a problem is the line you're drawing, because if I'm making disciples, those disciples in the days of slavery, they would want to address it. That was a volatile issue in the church back then. But but you have to address it. It's you're going to say, well, there's a slave camp where they're coming in and and come off the boat in chains and they're being auctioned off.

That's right across the street from us. But if we draw attention to that first and foremost in our congregation, it's going to alienate people at a pro slave. That to me is is now where I'm entering into compromise in the process. No, you you raise a valid point. And your your particular calling is completely understandable and justifiable. There's a big difference, though, however, between somebody like yourself that you describe where you felt like God called you to address this direct issue. That doesn't mean that every every Christian leader, therefore, whatever they're doing, whatever, whatever organization or part of whatever ministry that they're part of has to also take, like a public position, not that they're in favor of it.

I'm not suggesting that in any in any sense. But at least, but you know, like to confront it and stuff like that. I mean, for instance, again, going back into my experience in my own congregation, you know, I would speak about sexual issues in the congregation, I would include in that issues of homosexuality or abortion, or whatever, but it was part of a broader kind of message to assist the congregants and wrestling with all of the all the dynamics of the various issues that they're addressing, and how to understand it from the Word of God, rather than having a blanket like message out that homosexuality is sin is not of God, and so on and so forth, which again, is fine if you're called to do that. But I think the issue is always is what is the ministry that you call to be involved in, of course, like what you're saying, when you extend it down to disciples, we expect disciples of Jesus, to also be, you know, for instance, generally pro life, not to be in favor of gay marriage and so on like that.

But then also to enable it to equip them about what happens when friends do things like this, for instance, I gave a message just a couple years ago, and all these issues were arising in the States, I came back to the States and gave a message in several places call it called navigating our cultural changes. And I talked about, you know, what happens when somebody in your family comes out as gay or whatever? In other words, do you just do ostracize them? Do you kick them out of the family? You know, I mean, I'm a person that got kicked out of my family for 30 years because I was a believer follower of Jesus. So, so I know what the pain of being ostracized and kicked out of families. And so how do you address it? I think those are the kinds of, to me, those are some of the issues that have to be addressed in a broader perspective.

Right. And of course, I'm with you on that I just hosted a documentary that was released a couple days ago, called in his image, put out by American Family Studios. So I was the host of it, dealing with what the Bible says about being created in God's images, male, female, etc. And then testimonies from ex gays and ex trans people. But when I was doing a radio interview with the director and the producer of the documentary, the director said when we were trying to figure out who to have on to host this and to help us put this together, they said immediately you were the name that came to mind because of compassion.

So in other words, they know that we start with compassion towards people, looking at people as individuals loved by God and for whom Yeshua died. And then we address the issues in the culture. But I want to want to continue our discussion.

Got about a minute before the break. So I'll just put this out for you. I want to move over to Israel for a minute and then we'll come back to to America. But first, if we come back, if you could take a minute to explain how the political system works in Israel. And then I want to ask you a few theoretical things in terms of if this happened, if this happened, would it change your view of speaking out? Are you doing things the same in Israel?

Obviously, it's a totally different scene in Israel as opposed to to America, which is so dominated by evangelical leaders and faith and things like that. So we'll continue our dialogue and discussion. And friends, let's agree on this. As I say in evangelicals at the crossroads, we'll be passed the Trump test. Part of passing the Trump test is can we unify around Jesus, even if we disagree about the president?

Can we say let's be one in him and pursue what we all agree on are the fundamentals, the things that God wants us to live by and give ourselves to even if we differ on the president? All right, we'll be right back and continue this dialogue. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey, friends, welcome to the line of fire.

I'm not taking calls today. I'm in dialogue via Skype with an old friend and colleague, Jamie Cowen, actually Jamie Cohen. And he's been a Messianic Jewish leader, attorney, rabbi for many years now, living in Israel and active there.

We've been having a discussion about the intersection of the gospel and politics, believers in the culture wars, what's healthy, what's unhealthy. And I want to ask a few questions that would relate specifically to Israel. But Jamie, if you could just explain in simple terms how many parties there are normally in Israel and then how you you vote in Israel compared to America.

Okay, great. Yeah, actually, I'm very involved in the Israeli political scene. I'm an activist with one of the political parties here, Yesh Atid, which means there's a future headed by Yair Lapid. And I've been active in the last several elections.

And by the way, not actively in ministry now. So there's a little bit of a difference. But anyway, as far as the way it's structured, the Israeli form of government is very different than the United States. It's, it's there's multiple parties, unlike the US, which generally just has two parties, the US Israel has multiple parties right now in the Knesset, there's about 10 to 11 parties represented, which means that in any one election, in fact, it's never happened where one party actually has a majority of the parliamentary seats. So that means that you have to form a coalition of different parties together. So most of the time, it's can be as little as four, sometimes up to six or seven.

Right now, it's quite high the numbers. And so that creates just tremendous turmoil, and trying to try to get a government through a government in Israel is supposed to last for a full four years, but no government has ever managed to last a full four years because they because of the coalition system. One party says, I'm tired of what you're doing, what the leaders are doing.

And so I'm pulling out then the government falls, and then they have to have another election. So that's, that's the way it works. Crazy. So All right. So interesting. And I want to make clear, Jamie, that if I press on details, I'm not I'm not trying to have a gotcha moment or catch you in a contradiction.

I'm looking for clarification. Okay. You know, my my intentions are honorable here. So yes, you are you're known as a messianic Jew, right? It's not a secret that you're a believer in Israel.

Okay. I mean, it's not that you don't just broadcast it everywhere. Or, you know, when someone walks in the law offices, that's the first thing they hear. But that's, that's, that's known, you were a messianic rabbi, and you're known as a messianic Jew. Just as a disciple, forget not being in public ministry. But just as a disciple, known for your witness, aren't you now confusing things with people who think, well, there's not going to be baggage, this guy's messianic Jew, and he's prominent, and he's with Yesh Atif, and I don't like Yesh Atif. So therefore, that that mixes my picture of who Yeshua is, isn't it the exact same thing you're talking about here in America, just on a smaller scale? Not really, because we're not it's not as if the messianic community is, you know, the Lord, the Lord wills that it'd be a huge community, but it's not it's tiny, you're talking about, you know, 15 to 20,000 people, of which most of the most of the people vote in different parties anyway, and so on. So we're talking about just one, Joe Shimo, Jamie Cowan, in this case, who happens to be a messianic Jew, and is working with the party.

And, you know, and my real aim was to be able to bridge into the political system, to be able to give a voice to messianic Jews to so that they wouldn't be persecuted, because we're persecuted over here, we're not allowed to immigrate as messianic Jews, if they find out that you are and you are going to be barred immigration. And so you know that that's it. So there's big difference between that and having a huge, you know, evangelical group that is basically the largest constituency of the Republican Party. We're talking about like a world of difference here.

All right. So I mean, obviously, if folks if there's a poll done as people are leaving the voting, voting places, and if you find out through the polling that 81% of white evangelicals voted for Trump, they were not necessarily let's say they weren't even announcing it. Let's say Franklin Graham and Robert Jeffress and others were not publicly speaking for Trump. He's found through exit polls. So people, they don't have to keep secret who they vote for him. And that would be that would be completely absurd.

But let me let me go back just depressing this a little further here. Let's say since your goal as a messianic Jew in Israel, your greatest goal is that our people know Yeshua. That's our greatest goal of all, not financial security or political security, but ultimately, like any follower of Jesus, our greatest goal is that our people know him. Let's just say all of the parties were were decidedly against freedom of religion for messianic Jews. They they clearly wanted no immigration of messianic Jews coming in and try to kick out those that weren't native born Israelis and things like that.

They were just all hostile. And let's say Yesha was the one party that was really going to take a stand so that you could stay in the land and be witnesses. And and would it be wrong for messianic leaders, messianic pastors to say, listen, if we want to stay here in Israel right now, it's important to vote. And I know there are many issues, but I want to tell you why I'm voting for Yesha. Why would that be now crossing a line that's somehow forbidden?

That's what I'm still not getting. Yeah, I mean, no, it's a really good question. And I think my answer would be this, that I think as a, when you especially when you're a congregational leader, you're viewed as someone that represents God to the community, you know, and you're expected to be a model, you know, kind of modeling God's character and so on, and also a voice for the Lord. And so, you know, for instance, when I was leading a congregation, I, I believed that I was speaking the words of God when I was speaking from the pulpit, and challenging people to walk with God and be like God, so on like that. But on the other hand, I wouldn't get up there and say, Okay, well, you need for your decisions about house buying or your decisions about doing this or that in society, this is what you need to do.

And because I think I would have crossed the line into imposing my will onto their lives in between them and God. And I think it's very the same is true about, about voting about like political candidacy. In other words, if I as a spiritual leader, say, I'm voting for this person, and so on, they're, the people are going to, they're going to view that because of their perspective towards me, as kind of an imprimatur, God's imprimatur upon that particular candidate, as if it's now God's will, that we vote for this particular candidate, I think that's a huge mistake. And I think that's what has happened historically. You know, in many societies where you get the merger of state and religion, is where you end up having people who represent both the state and religion, it becomes like a disaster. It's, you know, it's really disastrous. And I think that's, that's the trend, unfortunately, in the United States.

Yeah, it is a dangerous trend. Again, I agree with that, where I would see things differently would be one, as a congregational leader, I would want to disciple my people strongly enough to say, hey, here's why I'm voting this way. But I want you to look at the issues, pray them through, come to your own conclusions. Yes, I know you respect my views.

This is where I'm coming from. But I want you to really work this through, think this through between you and the Lord. Look at the issues.

I don't, I don't see what would be unhealthy about doing that, especially if they are life and death. You know, right now, the Democrat Party is the most radical pro-abortion party we've ever seen. This is not the party of the Bill Clinton days. And you're talking about extreme positions. You're talking about real attacks on freedom of religion.

You're talking about some very, very aggressive LGBTQ platforms. I mean, I have no problem. I've said it over and over. If someone says, I can't vote for Donald Trump in good conscience, so I'm, I'm, I'm not sitting, I'm not voting for president, or I'm casting a third party protest vote. I've said over and over, hey, I respect that. I honor that. But here's why I differ with a believer voting Democrat for the following reasons. Now, you work it out between you and the Lord.

But what, what I've seen, probably ninety-nine, here, let me back up. The vast majority of churches that I know around America don't adequately prepare their people to vote on issues. They don't adequately say, hey, we just want you to know where each party stands on each issue.

You know what our teaching is. Now you review this and vote accordingly. The vast majority of congregations don't do that. Of those that do it, probably ninety-nine percent don't say how they're voting. They just say, hey, look at the issues. Look at where the parties stand and vote accordingly.

And the leaders don't even reveal how they're voting. So I see it primarily as, as the issues are momentous issues. And again, to kind of back it up, would you, if you could foresee some terrible disaster coming. So we use the extreme example. If you were in Germany and you had the foresight to see the danger of Hitler and the Nazis and you were a pastor or a leader, would it have been wrong, like a Bonhoeffer or others, forget the assassination plots, but would it have been wrong to speak up against specific candidates and to warn or even to say, hey, we've got a brother in our midst who's willing to run against this.

Let's stand and support. Is there never a time when this line can be crossed as a congregational leader? Well, here's the problem. I mean, you raise a lot of issues here and I'm not sure if I can remember them all, but I would just say this, that first of all, um, yeah, you know, if you have Adolf Hitler, yeah, sure. And the problem is that of course in Germany is that almost all the churches supported Adolf Hitler, um, for a variety of different reasons. So, you know, that, that's, this has been part of the problem with Christian involvement in politics is that they often support somebody or they get when they get so involved that they end up supporting autocratic dictatorial leaders. I mean, it's really a disaster, but here's, here's my problem with it, with, um, saying what you're saying about, you know, telling the congregation the years of the issues. I remember this again, going back years ago when I was in the congregation shortly after I'd come there, I'd come straight, actually I'd gone from working Congress to the seminary that you were heading up.

That was part of, you know, I was in your classes to, to, to the congregation in Virginia. And right away there was an organization, I'm not going to mention them because I don't want to mention people or organizations, but they provided, uh, voting guides for the congregation for the very things that you're talking about. In other words, how to know where candidates stand and on the issues. So I read it and it was, it was, it was so biased that it was beyond belief. I mean, it was just like beyond belief bias because here you're talking to a person who came from the political world who understands why people vote the way they do.

There's like tabling motions, there's motions of reconsider and all this kind of stuff that goes on. All of these things can be twisted to make it look like this person is against this issue or there's a certain percentage of times that these voted against this issue and so on. Using all these statistics, which badly distort the person's voting records and even the issues and, and so on. And so, so I prohibited voting guides in the congregation for that reason. If people want to know how to vote, they can tune into the debate tonight and listen, or they can read the P the party platforms like what you're talking about and make a decision for themselves. They don't need me to come along and say, this is how, this is how I'm going to vote and this is why I'm voting this way. And now it's, it's up to you because what's already happened is I've already heavily influenced them because they are looking at me as a spokesperson for God.

That's the problem. Got it. All right. Appreciate you laying that out. And I do want to come back to the larger political system.

Uh, speaking with Jamie Cohen, he was born Cohen, name changed to Cowan and then back to Cohen, uh, living in Israel, serving in Israel, doing very important work there. And again, we're in harmony on so much, but have some differences. We'll try to flesh them out the last few minutes. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Yeah. Time flies. I cannot believe we're coming to our last segment already. As I speak with my old friend and colleague, Jamie Cohen in Israel in Tel Aviv, how many years have you been living in Israel now?

Jamie? It's not just about nine years. Just about nine years. Amazing. Yeah.

I had, I had lost track of, of the time. All right. So, but let me try to work something out here on a very, very simple level. Let's say in, in your school district, you're, you're, you're a pastor, you're a messianic rabbi in, in your local school district, the County where you're based and most of your people live. There is a really aggressive sex ed curriculum that's been introduced into the schools and it's going to start, it's K through 12.

It's really bad. And then some extreme critical race theory things are being brought in and everything's going to be taught through that lens. And then you actually find out that there's some overt anti-Christian bias that's built into some of the curriculum and parents get very upset over this.

Their kids are coming home upset. You're looking at the programs there and the plans. So you go in and meet with your teachers, teachers say, oh, we need to speak to the administrator. The parents speak to the administrator. Oh, this comes from the school board. This, this is dictated by the local school board. And, and now there's going to be a vote. It's, it's time for new school board members. And a few people in your congregation say, we got to do something about this. Let's get involved with the school board. And, and would it be wrong to tell your congregation, Hey, we want you to know two folks, you know, them right here in our midst, they're going to be running for local school board and we know the agenda of the others. They've made it clear in their public statements. So let's get involved.

Let's back them. Would that be wrong? Yeah. That's again, again, another good question. I would, I would say, look, I would say as far as when this issue were to arise that even even as a spiritual leader, I feel free to go and stand before the school board and say, look, you know, I just don't this is inappropriate and for a variety of different reasons, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the same with members of the congregation who wanted to do that.

I think that's great too. But I again, I would not be in the position of saying, Okay, look, we got some candidates here in the congregation, raise your hand, stand up, you know, they're running for the school board. We need to get behind them. I just would not do that. Got it.

Yeah. And again, that's right. That's where I would have some of the differences to think, well, what, why is a line being crossed here? Where does scripture lay out that line and using your same argument that you would not want pictures of dead babies when people come into the congregation because you're trying to reach Jews and most Jews are liberal pro-abortion. Well, most Jews are going to be liberal with the school curriculum too.

And you're probably going to alienate those same Jews if you go to the to the local board meeting, school board meeting and speak out. So I just don't know how we can avoid the other issues. Being apologists for Donald Trump, big error being defenders of the president, being known more as as his supporters than were known as as followers of Jesus.

Big, big mistake. It's definitely hurt our witness. As I've said, he's done more to help evangelical causes than any president memory and done more to hurt the evangelical cause than any president memory. So, again, I'm with you and a lot of the concerns. But I guess my own experience just standing for righteousness issues or my friends who've been on the front lines of the pro-life movement and have literally helped save thousands of babies over the years.

I mean, literal numbers. And you can see the pictures and the families and all of this. They've been hated, reviled for those issues. And how they vote is almost completely secondary to that. And that's that's where I find the challenge. If we're going to have a prophetic voice, now there's going to be controversy associated with the message of the gospel.

And I don't know how to avoid that. No, I mean, obviously there is. But again, I think there's just a huge difference between endorsing or publicly supporting political candidates and so on. I think as far as a congregation taking up people in the congregation, being a leader, being involved in, let's say, pro-life activities, I think that's fine. I think people going to the March for Life in Washington, D.C. annually, I think that's fine. I think it's also fine to go to Black Lives Matter protests and, you know, and support racial, you know, racial equality and but also do it as a believer.

I think these are all fine. You know, it's just that when we we join together as supporting specific candidates and then following that into a political party, because the whole process of the politicization of the gospel has occurred over 20 to 30 years. I mean, we're not talking it didn't just happen with the moral majority. It happened over time and grew and grew and grew until it became associated with the Republican Party, which I think is like it is a disaster, even though I'm a Republican and I've been my entire life, you know, and served in the Republican Congress. So what do you say? You know, what's interesting is that I'm actually registered as an independent, even though I voted Republican for various candidates for some years, I'm registered as an independent just as my own voice of conscience to say that I do not publicly identify as a member of either party. And I ultimately don't put my trust in the political system to bring about lasting change.

I just see that as part of it. In other words, if if you said to me, OK, Mike, give me 10 ways that you as a believer see that America can be changed. Well, I'd start with with prayer and fasting. I go to repentance in the church. I go to winning the loss, making disciples. I go to acts of compassionate service in our community. I go to standing up for issues, being a prophetic voice and somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10 would be voting.

But it would be in there. You as someone who is an insider of the political system in America and now in Israel. So they're similar but different. Are you skeptical in general of of the political system ever changing or standing for righteousness or one party really having influence for good and one for bad? In other words, you kind of cynical like that's always just going to be a mix. Or do you think that real change can happen partly through the political system? I think that's a really good question.

And it's a complicated question. I think that, you know, I think it was Martin Luther King that actually talked about, you know, the society bending towards righteousness. And I think that in many in some respects, not all, but in some respects, the United States has become a better country throughout the years towards racial equality, equality for, you know, women treating, treating people respectfully and stuff like that.

The problem is, is that there is a mixture, you know, and some of some of the cultural changes are very problematic, you know, just very, very problematic. And so with both parties, I think there's both positives and negatives for both parties. You know, I've until 2016, I voted consistently Republican. I didn't vote Republican in 2016. And I won't this time either, mainly because of Donald Trump.

But but I, you know, somebody who asked me just recently, what about in 2024? Look, if the Republicans put together something to bring somebody who's not like, you know, maniacal, to be honest, I'll probably support it because I do want to support people who are like pro life and so on. And I do believe in more of a conservative type government, smaller government stuff like that.

On the other hand, you know, the Democratic Party is supportive immigrants I work with, I work with immigrants, I've been working with immigrants for 25 years as an immigration attorney. So I have a sensitivity towards them helping them helping the poor, helping them marginalize, you know, I think there's, there's a lot in the Bible that we can be for and be affecting change, including the unborn, for sure. So Jamie, what what if what if God was expecting you as a leader positioned directly across from an abortion clinic, to to be the strongest voice in the community? And to say, Okay, every day, babies are being killed in the womb.

There's nothing in the Bible that grieves God more than shedding of innocent blood, obviously, idolatry, but then that leads to all the other sins, shedding of innocent blood dealing with the least of these. And it doesn't doesn't mean necessarily that you had to have pictures of dead babies when people walked in, but that your congregation was number one active in sharing the good news, giving women options, helping to work for adoption or getting women to keep their babies and things like that. What what if, obviously, I'm not telling you what God was telling you to do. But what if you're a pastor, and that's, that's your assignment, you're directly across from an abortion clinic, God says, I put you there for a reason. So of course, it's going to alienate certain people.

But you've got a mission, lives are being lost, lives are being taken, you need to do something. Does does that ever override your your concerns about crossing lines? Well, first of all, we were pretty much known as a pro life congregation, there was no secret. Like I said, I was in as a board member of crisis pregnancy center, which is only a couple blocks from the abortion clinic. And so I was very active in that part of the movement, we had people in our congregation who would, you know, stand in front of the clinic and and would intercept women coming in for abortion. So, you know, this is what happened, you know, that people were involved, they knew that. But again, there's a big difference between doing that and standing up in the front of the congregation and saying, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna we're gonna, we're gonna bring down this clinic, we're gonna do everything we can because again, my, my, my view as my as the leader of the congregation was to see Jewish people come to know the Lord. And if I was just continue to harp on this issue, they would never even come through the doors. Oh, yeah, I understand that. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm just jumping in only because of time. And I didn't mean that that would be the number one mission. That would just be an important part of it. And look, you know, Jamie, you know, my perspective, that there are many things I differ with about the president, my last article, I mentioned his name, I stand against all these things, how I would plead with him to act differently. But then what I feel are really existential issues right now in America, the cancel culture, mobocracy, real attack on freedom of religion, the worst assault we have on on our laws to protect the lives of the unborn, various other things that are of very large nature.

For those reasons, I vote for Donald Trump, and I'm absolutely not his apologist or defender. And to me, I want the world to know a trillion times more that I'm a follower of Yeshua than a voter for Trump, he's going to come and go, his name is going to be forgotten. But this one name, we're going to live or die for forever. So Jamie, let's let's agree on what comes first, what matters most, and I stand with you side by side with that. And then hopefully, those that listen in and watch can can think through what we say and agree or disagree accordingly.

But we're out of time. But thank you, man, for coming on sharing your views. I hope this has been helpful. And you got to share your own thoughts as well.

It's good talking to you, Mike. Very good. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. All right, friends, we are out of time. But weigh in in the comments section wherever you are checking this out. Weigh in. Let us know your thoughts and hopefully this has been helpful for you as well. God bless.