How Christians Deal with Suffering and Pain

So, how do Christians deal with suffering and pain, and how are Christians in the UK dealing with COVID-19? That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Earlier today, I did a radio interview and the subject was my commentary on the book of Job. And naturally, we talked about suffering and pain and what this says to us as believers and what lessons we can learn from Job. And as we're in the ongoing crisis, the pandemic and how to deal with it, and do Christians get sick like everybody else, and do we have supernatural protection, and how do we deal with these things? We thought it'd be good to focus more on this on the radio broadcast. Of course, we've talked about this subject many times—sickness, healing, purpose of suffering, etc., difference between persecution and sickness, all those kinds of things.

But at the bottom of the hour, we'll be joined by a colleague from England. He is a committed Christian minister. He is a medical doctor. And he himself was diagnosed with cancer back in 2017. We've been dialoguing and thought, you know, let's talk about that, how you deal with crisis as a believer. And he also told me that the response to COVID-19 in the UK, how Christians are responding, what their attitude is towards government regulations is different than here in America. So we'll find out about that as well.

This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire. Here's the number to call, 866-34-TRUTH. Any subject of any kind, first half hour, no limits. Any subject, any question related to anything that we talk about here in the line of fire, 866-34-87-884. Tomorrow's broadcast is Early Jewish Thursday. We will talk about the Abraham Accords. We will talk about the major peace treaty signings in D.C. yesterday, really history in the making in front of our eyes. So we'll talk about that and some other Jewish related news of world interest.

We'll cover that tomorrow. But right now, I want to open the phones again, 866-34-TRUTH. Before we go to the phones, let me say this. Back in March, many of you know the story, I reached out to one of my publishers, main publishers, Charisma Media, March 18th. I reached out to a couple of editors and I said, I've got so much stirring in me regarding the virus, regarding Christian response to the virus, regarding faith versus fear, practical instructions, obeying the government or not. Is this the end of the world? Is this a plague from the book of Revelation? How should we relate to this?

Where does Psalm 91 fit in, divine protection? I said, I've got so much going on inside of me. I've been writing articles, doing live streams, Facebook, Zoom, different things like that. I said, what if I got a manuscript to you immediately? I was able to write it really quickly.

Do you feel there's a book to get out? And two editors immediately said that bears witness. We're thinking the same thing.

Let's do it. So it was March 18th, March 26th. I submitted the manuscript to them.

It happened that quickly. When the world stops, words of hope, faith and wisdom in the midst of crisis. And I wrote it dealing with the current pandemic, but also dealing with issues of faith and suffering so that you could read the book 10 years from now or 20 years from now and whatever's going on personally or nationally, and you find it relevant. So the book's gotten out.

If you look at Amazon, it's got a lot of great reviews, great responses. We're grateful that it blessed and helped people, but I've got to be totally candid with you. When I wrote the book and when we got it out with such urgency in April, the e-book in April, the physical book in May, I honestly wasn't thinking that we'd be in September, mid-September, and still this would be just as real an issue. Places still not fully opened up.

You know, sports world playing before empty arenas. The question still, is the virus getting worse, the spreading worse, demands help or not help? So here we are still in the midst of this. And therefore, some of the things I wrote about in When the World Stops, if you don't have it, but by all means get it, I think it's on sale for half price on Kindle for e-book on Amazon, but paperback's available as well and get them on our website. But the same messages I was conveying then that were on my heart are absolutely relevant.

The same questions for church leaders. The only thing that's changed in terms of application is in the book, in the midst of the initial shutdown and, hey, we're just going to flatten the curve for a few weeks and then open things back up. Remember President Trump hoping that we could have our full services by Easter and all that.

So mid-April and then many talking about Passover and that's mid-April and we're going to see a change then. Well, of course that came and went. All right.

And the months have gone on. My counsel then was to obey the government authorities. Andy Stanley and I just interacted about that last week via text and he feels that's the right policy, that everyone's trying hard. Governors and mayors and city officials are trying hard to get this right. So let's comply and love our neighbor and so on. And we don't need to meet in large corporate settings. Obviously John MacArthur and other prominent pastors differing with that.

Rodney Howard Brown was the first in Florida. And my position in the book was obey the authorities, honor them love your neighbor, respect the health and well-being of your neighbor. But if the government overreaches its bounds, if it goes too far, if it applies to the law unequally, if it discriminates against churches, at that point you say we must obey God rather than man. And we've been at that point for months now. So in the book, my counsel was obey the authorities unless it gets to a certain point. We've been at that point. But the first message beginning with the first chapter was fear not.

And the second chapter then says feed your faith not your fears. So right now with the chaos in the society around this, the confusion in the society around this. We just had a staff prayer meeting and we're talking about the elections and what's coming in November. Do you think no matter who is elected that the chaos in America is going to get less? And barring divine intervention, do you think that whichever side loses is going to say, hey, all right, best man won.

Let's get on with things. You know, if you've ever seen a boxing match and they're trash talking, the two opponents are speaking out and knock you out, man, you're a bum, you're nothing, man. And they do it, you know, to build ticket sales and to build interest. And then afterwards they hug each other and say, man, I respect you. And you think that's going to happen after the elections, that whoever's elected is just going to say, hey, let's let's let's bear the ax here. Let's let's put aside the hostilities and whoever loses say, hey, hey, we're in this together.

We're one. It would be nice if that happened. I don't expect that. In other words, the chaos, the uncertainty, the shaking is only going to intensify. We as God's people need to take hold of his truth to step back from being inundated with the Jews, inundated with the secular media on the right and on the left, and step back and worship God and honor Jesus as Lord and get our hearts settled in God's faithfulness. As as I end, when the world stops going through Psalm 91, opening up the Hebrew and explaining that that the word say tear where it starts, that that the the the one who abides lives in the almighty will find that that say to that secret place, that that hiding place you're saved.

Is it early on? But says Shaddai, you know, this is how the psalm begins. The one who lives, who dwells in that secret place, that hiding place, that that same word can be used as a shelter in a rock or a mountain so that there's a storm out and you go in, you go in that shelter and you come out from the storm going into God. His promises is good.

It is that real. We have a refuge from the storm. Our hearts and minds can be at peace, whether it's President Trump or President Pence or President Biden or President Harris or whoever it is. Jesus is Lord. God reigns and we have refuge in him. Let's run to him and be strong and secure. Amen. Eight six six three four truth. Let's go over to Brian in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Welcome to the line of fire. Well, thank you, Dr. Brown.

Long time fan and glad to be on the show. Recently returned to the faith. Had a couple of questions for you.

I'm a big history fan majoring history in school and stuff. And I know when secular historians go back and they study like the ancient Hebrews, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, was wondering if anybody knew about this in my view. Do you have any knowledge on? I know secular historians believe that maybe the original worshippers of Yahweh were called the Shasu, an ancient group called the Shasu. And I was wondering if you have any sources where I could go as a Christian to find kind of the counters on the Christian side to when secular historians talk about the idea that maybe the Hebrews were originally the Shasu or that the Hebrews were originally polytheistic and Yahweh was one of many gods under El and all these different things that secular story and say, you know, where I as a Christian could go to read kind of reputations or counters from from fellow Christians about, hey, secular historians, you're not so right on this.

So I was wondering if you've ever heard of those sorts of things, the Shasu and God being one of many gods. And, you know, a good place Christians could go to read kind of the reputation and the counters. Yeah, sure.

Sure thing. Yeah. So glad that you're back in the faith. And and certainly we know that in ancient Israelite history, there was a lot of polytheism. And God, of course, rebukes his people for that. And we also know that that God and Yahweh was known as God most high, in other words, higher and greater than any other gods. Were the original Israelites strictly monotheistic or they were they henotheistic? Did did they view Yahweh as the greatest of all gods?

You think of Exodus 15, who is like you? Oh, Yahweh, among the gods. God brings judgment on the gods of Egypt. What you see, though, is that the others are not really gods. In other words, that they get exposed as being false deities, as not really being creators or or or eternal. They are all created beings. They are fallen beings. They are they are nothing to be worshipped or adored.

There's only one true God. That message begins to really, really shine forth. And the more you compare it to the ancient Near Eastern background, the more that it jumps forward at you. Now, you can always write to our our website. And when you do, it will your your email questions. And I'd recommend you to do that to get some more information. But but when you do that, one of our team members who's a Russian Israeli Jew with Ph.D. in Old Testament and is a Old Testament scholar, similar background as mine, he'll also give you more references and more information than I can give you on the air. But there's a very useful book I always recommend in this context by John Oswald.

O.S.W.A.L.T. John Oswald. And it's called The Bible Among the Myths, Unique Revelation or Just Ancient Literature. So I'm going to recommend two books for you. John Oswald, The Bible Among the Myths.

The other is Kenneth Kitchen. Kenneth Kitchen, one of the world's foremost Egyptologists. And it's called On the Reliability of the Old Testament that deals with a lot of the historical issues. Kenneth Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament. John Oswald, The Bible Among the Myths. Those will be tremendously helpful for you. And then write to us if you need more references, some online references, things like that, and we will gladly help you.

You can love God with all your heart and all your mind. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire. You know, just thinking of a question that Brian just asked. When I came to faith, not long after being a believer, just brand new believer, my dad asked me to talk to the local rabbi. He said, Michael, glad you're off drugs, but we're Jews.

We don't believe in this. Rabbi was a very learned man, just graduated from Jewish Theological Seminary and challenged me on many levels, brought me to other rabbis. They all were much more learned than I was. They knew Hebrew fluently.

I could barely read it. And then I started college and all my degrees, so my undergraduate and graduate degrees were all in secular universities, Queens College and New York University, my bachelor's, master's and Ph.D. So in other words, I never studied with believers.

And some cases I studied with people who were very hostile, people who were once religious and no longer were and enjoyed mocking the faith or tearing down the Bible or challenging religious Jews and religious Christians. I was always in that environment and I determined that I would take the objection seriously. In other words, that I needed to come up with serious answers and not just dismiss them, because then you have a skin deep faith. You get asked deep questions like that.

I can't just dismiss it as opposed to that. That's a serious question. I need to do some serious thinking. And then when you do, you find truth, you find answers.

And then you're so strengthened overall. You know, I don't ever worry about there's going to be some discovery that debunks the Bible or some rabbi is going to come up with a objection against Jesus. I never think twice about it because I spent years, decades, really digging, thinking, studying about all the objections. And to this day, I'm constantly interacting with people who don't believe and don't agree. So there is a place of security and strength in the Lord where you don't have to, you don't have to fear the latest concern.

But when something's raised, know that we have solid answers for all the objections that come up. All right, 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go over to Jacob in Temple, Texas. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Dr. Brown. How are you? Doing very well.

Thank you. So my question today is that with a premillennial rapture and a post and pre-tribulation, can somebody be saved after the rapture? Well, because I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture personally, I'm not the best one to answer that.

But according to the system, yes. According to this view that if there's a pre-trib rapture, so the true believers are suddenly removed from the earth in a secret event where just, if it was like now, we'd be talking and suddenly we're not here. And those that are in the offices around us that are not believers, they'll be, you know, where are those people?

They just disappeared. Okay, so what if you'd heard the gospel and you had rejected it and now the rapture happens and you realize this is true and now it's the tribulation and the antichrist, can you be saved? The answer would be yes, absolutely. And the Bible does speak in Revelation 7 about a multitude that no one could number that came out of great tribulation. So theoretically, there'll be multitudes of people saved, millions, hundreds of millions saved during that time.

But according to the pre-trib theory, it'll be much harder. You might end up being beheaded for your faith or something like that. But yeah, they would argue that you could still be saved.

I personally don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but that would be the theory. Now, the controversy comes where what if you take the mark of the beast? Could you then repent and be saved? And John MacArthur's come under criticism for saying you could be saved if you take the mark of the beast or whatever.

I've let others battle that out in terms of their views on that. But like any other principle, if we deny the Lord, He'll deny us. Meaning if that becomes our confession that we deny Him and are not following Him, He'll deny us.

If we confess Him, He'll confess us. And He's able to give us grace to stand no matter what. That's why Paul in Romans 8, when he asked the question, who or what shall separate us from the love of Christ, what's the first thing? Tribulation? Nah, not tribulation. Not even great tribulation. Nothing can separate us from God's love. He's faithful and He'll preserve us no matter what. Can I ask one more question?

Sure thing, sure. So for during the millennial reign, what's the point of the millennial reign? Why doesn't everything just wrap up? And what is the, I guess, the point of Jesus coming and reigning on earth for a thousand years?

Yeah, it's a perfect question and it's a fair question. So why doesn't it just end? Jesus returns and the saved are saved, the lost are lost, and we go into new heavens, new earth, eternity. Why even have a millennial kingdom? Great question. One thing is God did give promises to Israel and a certain role to Israel to be a priestly nation, and God will keep His promises. So there will yet be a time when Israel will function as a priestly nation and bring the knowledge of God to the nations of the world in the millennial kingdom that will learn the ways of God through them. But, you say, but that's the role of the church and we do that now, we could still go into eternity.

Again, a fair question. So my understanding, and I'm sure there's more, but my understanding is this. There is the ultimate vindication of God and there is the ultimate shutting of every mouth that God alone may be God. And what's one of the great accusations against God?

What's one of the biggest reasons that people fall away from the faith? They say, well, if God was really good, there wouldn't be so much suffering and pain. I can't believe in a God when there's so much injustice in this world. I can't believe in a God who allows thousands of babies to starve to death every week. I can't believe in a God that doesn't intervene and lets human beings commit atrocities against human beings like in world wars and things like that.

And if He was really good, surely He would do something. Well, in the millennial kingdom, we will have a time where the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. We'll have a time of the wolf lying down with the lamb. We'll have a time of nations beating their swords into plowshares. We'll have a time of universal peace. We'll have a time when Jesus will rule with a rod of iron so you won't have injustice.

You won't have the problem of suffering to deal with. And yet at the end of that, when Satan is loosed, he will go throughout the entire world and multitudes of people will follow him in rebellion against God. And that to me will also be the great indication that God can say, you are guilty because you are guilty.

You are guilty because you have chosen sin. He will shut the mouths of everyone that ever brought an accusation against God, because even in the most perfect world that the universe has ever known, human beings will still rebel against God by their own choice. I think that's part of it also. And there'll be other dimensions of what God reveals during that time.

But to me, that's part of why that will happen. And the rest will unfold, we shall see. But Jacob, I appreciate the questions very much. Thanks for calling. Thank you. All right. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go to Angelica in Franklin, Louisiana. Thanks for calling the line of fire.

Good evening, Dr. Brown. I was calling because I searched your digital library and I didn't find anything on this subject, but I'm a black American that believes in Jesus, right? And again, I'm thinking a lot of, you know, that we come up in church, so that's who we believe in. But now something that's really taking form and taking shape and taking off at an alarming rate of speed where people leaving the faith because they've seen that Jesus, the depiction of Jesus in Revelation 1 proves that he was black.

And at first I just kind of just didn't, you know, didn't, you know, just didn't pay any attention to it or whatever. But then ministers who have a huge following, they're also teaching this. And now it has me worried because I just, I don't have, I don't know any resources where I can understand the truth without it, you know. Yeah, yeah, sure thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And now it's hitting my family, you know, and it's like I just don't have the information to combat this spirit, you know, because they want to hinge everything on the fact that Jesus was black because of what, of Revelation 1. So could you kind of direct me into some resources that I'm actually looking for? So if you go to my website, AskDrBrown.org, and just type in was Jesus white, I have a short video about that, was Jesus white.

So that's the first place to go. And the answer is he wasn't white, he wasn't black, he was probably brown skinned, Middle Eastern man. And from what we have Jewish testimony from within 100 years of the time of Jesus, the Jewish people then were not white, were not black, but were more the color of boxwood, which is a light brown. But if you look in Revelation, Revelation, the first chapter, okay, it's a vision of the risen Jesus.

He appears, okay, so he's a glorified Jesus, his tongue is like a sharp sword, okay. But notice what it says in verse 14, the hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. So people have bizarrely said, ah, you see, his hair was like wool.

That means he's a black man with that woolly kind of bristly hair. No, no, it says white like wool, white like snow. So his hair was not the texture of snow, it was white like snow, it was white like wool. That's all it's saying, it's not, so this whole idea that it says he had woolly hair, it doesn't say he had woolly hair any more than it says he had snowy hair.

It's a complete misreading of the text. Then if you want, you could go over to Song of Solomon, Song of Songs, chapter 5, verse 10, speaking about Jesus, that's the image there. First, Song of Solomon 5, 10, in the King James says, my beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among 10,000. You could argue that he was white based on that. The fact is, neither one is talking about the color of his skin. And the Bible does not address the color of his skin. And he could be white, he could be black, he could be yellow, he could be red, he could be brown. That's not the issue. The issue is who he is.

So that's what we want to focus on. Don't let people get you caught up on black Jesus or white Jesus. The Bible does not describe his skin color. It is a first century Middle Eastern Jew, likely a brown skin, light brown skin man. Either way, he's our savior. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. What do you do when you're a follower of Jesus, when you believe in his goodness, his blessing, his grace, when you believe in divine healing, and then find yourself sick? What do you do as a minister of the gospel and a medical doctor?

Where does science fit in? Where does faith fit in? And beyond that, what do you do with your own relationship with God? I mean, these are obviously perennial questions that come up in the lives of every believer.

If you live long enough, these questions will come up. And a few years back was interacting with Dr. Adrian Lornach, so a minister of the gospel but a medical doctor. And we began talking about these things because he was diagnosed with cancer. And we talked some time ago, boy, we've got to get you on the air, talk about these things, how you deal with them, wrestle with them, what's happening in your own walk with God. Now with COVID-19 going on and kind of a different response to the pandemic in England as opposed to in America, we thought now would be a great time to talk. Dr. Lornach has written different books including Hope Reborn and Raised with Christ. He's been a member of Jubilee Church London since 1995.

He's served on the leadership team for more than a decade. So Adrian, it's been a long time, but welcome back to the line of fire. Yes, hi.

It's wonderful to be back. Well, Adrian, first, how is your health right now? Well, in some ways it's good because the cancer itself is under control. But I've been left with a sort of damaged immune system and that manifests itself in three main ways. One, through infection. So I'm particularly susceptible to infections, which obviously is a bit of a concern at the moment with COVID and everything around. And then the other is that I get inflammation as well.

And then finally I get quite a lot of lack of energy. So unfortunately I'm not able to work, but I do have some energy now. I'm better than I was. And so I'm doing a little bit of writing and a little bit of this sort of thing.

All right. So here you are, a man of faith, serving in leadership ministry, reaching out to others. We talked years ago about a book for new believers and understanding the nature of God and things like that. So you've had a heart for outreach.

You believe in God gifts and power for today. What happened when you got your diagnosis a few years ago? What exactly did the doctors tell you and how did that impact you? Yeah, well, it was very sudden. I mean, it was literally one of those, I joke about it like a sliding doors moment. Those who watch the movie will know what I mean, but I literally stepped outside of a tube train, felt my legs give way, became very breathless and my heart rate was racing and I felt very confused.

I couldn't really walk along the platform. I was taken to hospital and diagnosed with pneumonia. And then during that, that sickness was told that there was a reason why my immune system wasn't working very well that I had a blood cancer and that that was affecting my immune system. And so initially it was old, you'll recover, it'll be quick. You'll be okay for a while. You won't need treatment for a while.

There's often, you don't have to have treatment straight away with that. But actually I did develop, you know, needed some surgery and then some treatment within about 15 months of that. So that was about two years ago now, actually next month, it'll be two years since I started chemo.

So the whole thing is about three and a half years. And obviously there's the shock of the news and there's the physical reality and that's a slap in the face. But what happened between you and God in those early days in particular? Yeah, well, I mean, to be honest, when you're very, very sick, it can be very difficult to have much of a sense of a relationship with God or much of a sense of passion for anything. I mean, what was interesting for me is I found my passion started to go for a while before I even realized I was sick. And at first I thought I was sliding or something, but my love for Jesus wasn't really being replaced with a love for anything else. I just didn't have any energy or any enthusiasm for anything. So at one point I was quite flat.

I was quite empty. Obviously there was other times where I was very sad and the emotions were very strong. And I think for me, I kind of had to ask myself a very fundamental question. Do I actually believe this stuff? This belief that I have in Christ, is he real? Do I believe in him? Do I actually believe that there's a hope beyond the grave? And so funnily enough, I picked up my book and read it again like I'd never heard the gospel before in my life to say, is this real and do I believe it? And if it is real, then obviously there's a hope here that is the real deep hope, not just the superficial, oh, everything will be fine. But it says that, you know what? I don't know that everything will be fine, but I do know that God is with me and I do know that I have a hope that goes beyond the grave even. Do you think, Adrian, that many Christians struggle with this idea of God is with me, then why am I sick?

Because this is a bad thing. And in the Bible, sickness is either associated with judgment or with demons or we know Jesus went around healing people rather than making them sick. So many Christians struggle with that.

If God is with me, if the Bible is true, why am I sick at all? Did that come up in your in your own mind? Oh, for sure. I mean, because I think most of us, even if we're not fully bought into sort of what some people call the sort of the word of faith type of approach, name it, claim it, frame it, that kind of thing, even if we're not fully bought into that idea, we do have a sense that God is going to give us good things. God is going to bless us. And that if we, it's almost like we do a kind of deal with God. And if we do what God wants us to do, then he will bless us is the way we tend to think about it. But it doesn't always work that way.

And I mean, it's an interesting thing, because it is a challenge because I think we can we can fall off the edge on two ways. One is to say, oh, well, you know, try and deny it and claim it. Like, there's no suffering for Christians.

And that's just obviously patently not true. Or we can become a little bit too passive about it and just sort of think that somehow, you know, God designs suffering and loves suffering when that's clearly not true either. Because, I mean, God is a loving Father. It doesn't give him any pleasure to see a suffering, that's for sure.

It's not part of his original plan for us, you know? So what do you what do you make of it? Who sent it?

How did it happen? What has God got to do? God allow it? Did he send it? Did Satan send it? Is this a demonic thing in your body? Is it a thorn in the flesh from the Lord? I mean, how do you process this?

I guess it can sometimes be any of those, all of those, mixed with those, none of those. I mean, we do live in a fallen world, and we live in a broken world, and our bodies are broken. And as you said in the introduction, if we wait long enough, suffering is going to come through all of us. I mean, some people do like to say that Christians don't get sick, but if they've got enough faith. But, you know, I do think that if we look back at every single man of faith and every single woman of faith who's been known as a healer, they've all eventually got sick and died. I mean, there are no 150-year-old faith healers around.

But it will come. But some of it is just from being in the broken world. Sometimes, yes, it can be a judgment. Sometimes it can be, you know, sin. I mean, obviously, there's sometimes specific sicknesses that come because of sins that we've committed, you know? But sometimes it can just be the ways of the world.

Sometimes God can use it to teach. I think, for me, after a while, I just got to the conclusion I don't know why this has happened. And I do remember sort of praying, God, why has this happened?

Why are you not really answering my prayers to heal this at the moment? And in the end, I became more focused on what was God trying to do in me in the situation rather than trying to change the situation? I know that sounds a bit strange, but I think, you know, for me, Romans 8 was where I ended up landing.

Romans 8 doesn't tell us why the things happen. It just says that in all things, God is working for our good. And I do believe that. And I hope that's something that all of us can agree that actually, when we face these things, God can do something in us. And for me, I'm definitely a much more compassionate person than I was. I'm much more able to help other people. You know, it talks about the God of all comfort, who comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort others in whatever trouble they're in. So for me, it's about, well, God, what do you want me to do right now, right here? What doors are opening for me to minister that wouldn't be there if I hadn't been through this experience? And there's certainly a massive of opportunity to help people at their very most desperate when you can say, look, I understand how you're feeling because I've been there. And, you know, of course we could say, well, then why doesn't God just take sickness out of the world so I don't have to get sick to help someone else who's sick? Well, we're in a fallen world, and that's the reality. And you know, I spent years working on a commentary on Job, and you know the book of Job well.

yourself. God never answers the questions that we know as the readers behind the scenes. He reveals himself, and Job comes out of it a better man.

The hell that he lived through, he comes out of it a better man, and he knows God better. And even when I've been speaking about COVID-19, was it just a natural phenomenon? Was it a Chinese bioweapon? Was it an attack from Satan? Was it divine judgment, a combination of different things? Whatever's going on, we know that God wants to be at work in us in the midst of this.

That much we do know. And that's a fundamental revelation of God in Scripture that he's a redeemer. Even in Genesis 1, where you have God in creation, there's darkness, then there's light, there's evening, then there's morning.

There's just that pattern. There's the chaos of the waters and then order coming out of that. So what we know is in this world, there'll be all types of calamitous things that happen, but God works as a redeemer. So what would you say to someone else, now that you've been in this situation, and someone comes to you either with a terrible diagnosis themselves or for a family member, how might you speak to them differently now? From what I know, you've always been a compassionate, non-judgmental, blame-the-person kind of individual, but what do you think you'd say differently now than you would have a few years ago?

I think one thing I'd definitely be different about is the acceptance of emotion. For many Christians, we tend to try and short-circuit it and say, we need to rejoice. God will be with us, and we must be happy. And that's all true. Or we must cast our anxieties onto God and all of this. And it's all true, but I think we think it's instant. Whereas the reality is, we have to cast our anxiety onto God precisely because we have anxiety, and it's okay to have anxiety. And I think it was Matt Chandler who said, sometimes you have to cast your anxiety 10 or 20 times a day onto God.

It's not an instant fix. I think there's a journey, there's a wrestling. It's interesting when you talk about the Book of Job. His friends sat with him for days before they even said anything, and perhaps they shouldn't have voted their mouth. We just sometimes need time, and we need to allow ourselves to feel, and not to be ashamed of that. And then, yes, we need to work on our thoughts, because I think we can't really control how we feel directly, but we can influence how we think, and we can start to try and help ourselves in that area, whilst giving ourselves the permission to be upset, or to be angry, or to be sad, or to be crying, all of these things.

I think too many Christians put on a fake smile and pretend everything's fine when it's really not. And I can tell you, there were nights when I couldn't sleep and I'd be crying into my pillow. And I'm not ashamed to say that as a Christian, because after all, Jesus waxed.

It was good enough for him, it was good enough for me, you know? Yeah, and that's, boy, this is an important subject, and we'll come back to it on the other side of the break, as I speak with Dr. Adrian Warnock. The ability to be real. Jude, it says, be merciful to those who doubt. And we often think, well, doubt, just rebuke that. And there is a doubt that's a sinful doubt, where someone that should be trusting God as being double-minded. But God's heart is tremendous mercy. And the book of Job is saying, God understands when we're real, and we sometimes have to process things in ways that don't look so pretty, and don't sound so pious, but it's the result of a relationship. It's because this person does have relationship with God.

They're like, God, something's not right here. You're not there when you're supposed to be. So, boy, I appreciate the redemptive grace that's come out of Adrian already, just in these few minutes, ministering to many of you.

I know. Okay, we'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire, with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends, as I speak with Dr. Adrian Warnock in the midst of a battle with blood cancer, but in a good place with the Lord, and recovering physically in the midst of it. Adrian, in some cases, we're not allowed to say, I'm sick, you know, extreme word of faith circles.

In others, just general Pentecostal Charismatic, where we believe in healing, we want to speak positively, and then, you know, we can't be real. Hey, man, how you doing? Praise the Lord. God's good.

He's faithful. We got to be put up front. I mean, that just adds to the pain, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I mean, it really does. And actually, one of the things that's most painful is when people try and sort of force you to be more positive than you're feeling, you know? I mean, it's basically lying.

Let's be honest. I mean, I remember, it's not a serious example, but I remember a guy walking into a church, Pentecostal church I was in during the day. I think we were, you know, meeting or something. And he was coughing and sneezing and just like his whole nose was screaming. And I said, oh, it looks like you got a cold.

And he looked at me and said, no, I don't have a cold. I just have the manifestation. And I was like, okay. Yeah. All right.

Well, you know, and I think we have to be honest and we have to be truthful. And, you know, the reality is that not everybody gets healed, you know? And I mean, it's interesting because even in Jesus' ministry, I mean, the story that amazes me more than any of us with Jesus is, as someone who's now suffered, is him walking into that pool of Bethsaida where there was a whole load of people there all waiting for the angel to come and stir the water so that one of them would get healed, whoever gets in there first.

And what does Jesus do on that occasion? He doesn't heal all of them. He walks up to one person and heals them.

And I tell you, as someone who's sick, when you hear healing stories, you sometimes think, well, why wasn't it me? I mean, what about those other people there that weren't healed? And yes, there were times when he healed everyone, but there were also times when he didn't.

And that was even in his ministry, let alone obviously today. And God does heal today, but he doesn't heal everyone. And that can be really hard when, you know, people sort of want you to sort of, you know, to say, oh, you'll be fine. And you say, well, I don't know if I'll be fine, actually, you know, I'm trusting God that he'll be with me. And, and whatever happens, I'm going to believe, you know, I think, you know, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had strong faith.

They said, God will deliver us. But even if he doesn't, we'll still follow him. And I guess it's, it's living that even if he doesn't sort of position, which actually we will all face one day. I mean, that's the scary thing is that we don't think enough about this. One day, we will get sick with the disease that kills us.

And are we going to just live in denial? Or are we going to actually prepare ourselves for that moment and think about, you know, our faith and how our faith isn't just something for the here and now, but it's something for the eternal as well. And you know, what's interesting as I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word for healing, because I had so many questions on it and wrote a scholarly monograph on Israel's divine heal and have taught on it. I do believe that we can come to God in confidence, based on what Jesus did on the earth, based on promises in the word and God's posture, and say, Father, I'm asking you to heal. In other words, I don't pray, Lord, if it be your will heal, I just ask God to heal. However, I know at the same time that most of the seriously ill people I've prayed for the last 50 years have not been healed. The blind people, deaf people, the rarest exception of a small improvement, have not been healed. So I'm going to posture myself to pray a certain way, but with the understanding that faith is going to trust God whether I see the answer or not.

And in that sense, it's almost a deeper faith. Wouldn't you say that even if I'm not healed, he's my—you know, I remember when I had pneumonia as a young man, I got hit with viral and bacterial pneumonia at the same time, because no one could understand why I got sick in my late 20s. And I remember laying in the hospital bed and none of the medication was working. And I wrote on the—you know, I had bandages on my arm with intravenous. I wrote in Hebrew, Oni Adonai Rofecha, I'm the Lord your healer. And I said, Lord, a billion years from now, you're not going to be the healer any more than you are now, even if I'm sick. I'm still going to believe that you're the healer. And you can die confessing that. Even if I die, you're still the healer.

You're still good. And in a sense, not being healed—it would be wonderful if you miraculously healed tomorrow or today—but in a certain sense, your faith has grown through this. Wouldn't you say that you're a deeper man of faith now than before?

I would say that. And I think the reason is because what is the definition of faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. So actually, in a way, when you've received your healing, you don't have to have faith to be healing because it's yours, it's there. And I think you're right about the belief for healing, pray for healing. But I think the critical thing that most Christians forget is that if I die, that's actually healing for me, you know, because I'll not have any more suffering, I'll not have any more sickness, I won't be worrying about getting Coronavirus or the flu or even just a cold at the moment.

I've had a cold for four or five months, I can't fight it off, you know. I won't have to worry about any of those things. Or if someone's in pain, the pain will have gone. So I mean, I used to know a wonderful pastor who was wheelchair bound, and prayed for his healing constantly and was convinced that one day he would run and dance again with God. And when he died, suddenly, we didn't think, oh, God had failed him.

I mean, I've heard some Christians say, oh, the devil won that one. But no, actually, he's with Jesus. And, you know, he's got that whole eternity to enjoy Jesus' presence. And in fact, there's Joni Eareckson Tardar will be with him, dancing before God at that time, you know, with a new body and a new heaven and a new earth and all of that. So for me, healing is promised.

I believe it is in the atonement. It's just the timing. It won't always be when we want it. Some of us have to wait, you know, a whole day. Some of us have to wait a week. Some of us have to wait decades for our healing. But it will come. It's just whether it comes now or whether it comes in eternity, you know.

Yeah. And unfortunately, we have this mindset where if you're really spiritual and you won't be sick and there's something wrong with you and it's a stigma, it's an unfair thing, and it's something we just have to cast off. And obviously, going through something like this enables you to speak to this more. I do want to address briefly something we had emailed about, namely the response to COVID-19 by Christians in the UK. But before that, have you thought more about eternity and being with the Lord forever, more now that you've been sick than you did before?

Oh, yeah. Because, I mean, if you're living mostly for the now, you know, even if it's the ministry now or, you know, what you can write on your blog now or, you know, what your next sermon is going to be or, you know, just getting through the day of busyness, we don't tend to think about eternity. But when you suddenly realize that you can't guarantee, you know, I mean, I might have expected another 40 years and I may still get another 40 years, by the way, I don't know. But, you know, if you know you can't guarantee that, then you tend to think about eternity. Although, of course, none of us can guarantee it, really. I mean, that's the truth. You know, we don't have a guarantee that we'll just go to sleep when we're 85 and then wake up with Jesus.

You know, that may not happen to us. And so I think it is important to begin to sort of think that way. And even just to ask yourself that question of, do I actually believe, you know, or is it just all show, you know, is it all just superficial? Does Job worship God for nothing? You know, do I worship God because he blesses me and he's given me a ministry or he's given me a job or he's given me money or he's given me a nice house or a nice family? What if God starts taking those things away or circumstances start taking those things away? Then what?

Do you still trust him or not? Yeah, exactly. I mean, words of wisdom and truth and faith from Dr. Adrian Warnock. We literally have about two minutes, but I'm curious to know how Christians in the UK have responded to COVID-19 in a way that may be a little different than Christians in America. Yeah, it's interesting. The whole thing is a lot less political over here. We're not split in half about this issue. I don't think most Christians would either be, you know, completely sort of terrified about this and sort of blowing it up as full proportion, nor on the other hand, would we be sort of saying that it's all a hoax and it's all about, you know, the mark of the beast and all those sorts of things.

I think most Christians, I mean, put it this way, most churches aren't particularly worried about the fact that they've been asked not to meet. But I think one of the reasons for that is that we saw a huge wave that was, yes, focused on London, but it wasn't exclusively focused on London. And so most people I know have seen people get sick.

I've got someone in my small group who's a COVID widow. And I think in parts of America, the wave has only recently just begun in some part, you know, and perhaps, you know, people haven't seen as much of it as possible. And so when you haven't seen it, you tend to sort of not necessarily see it as seriously and to think there's a lot more kind of worry about the politics of it. I mean, that's the thing for me as an observer, I'm surprised that even decisions like, you know, which drugs should be used seems to be a political decision rather than a medical one, which I think is a shame really. Politics shouldn't involve everything, no? Yeah, well, it is the state of America.

And I'm so glad you're sharing this from the perspective of the UK, because either the virus is Trump's fault, or he's the one fighting the virus, or the vaccine is a godsend, or the vaccine is preparing us for the one world government, the Antichrist. And then the other thing that's interesting is that Americans, as you remember our history, are a bit more rebellious and a little bit more independent. So we are much less inclined to go with government regulations and to be skeptical of government control and to want to make sure we have our guns in case they're taken away. And some of the reaction is understandable. I'm not saying this in all critical ways, I'm just reflecting, but it is interesting to see how this plays out in different countries. We are more collectivist as well. So I think for a lot of us, you know, once they started explaining that, look, if you wear a mask, the main thing you're doing is protecting other people.

If you happen to have it, it will help you a little bit. But the most thing it seems to do is catch the droplets and stop it spreading to other people. And most English people, you know, initially were a bit confused. But I mean, my son goes on the underground, it's like 90% of people are wearing masks, and there's no problem.

And it's not seen as this big, sort of evil, oppressive thing. It's like, what can we do to help people, you know? Well, again, just saying that, giving that observation just does remind us here in America of the unique situation in which we find ourselves. But hey, friends, I want to ask you to continue to pray for Adrian, for God's grace in his life. And let's keep praying for healing. And Adrian, may the Lord use your voice to help many who are suffering, those who are bereaved, those who are in the midst of pain and don't have answers. May your voice bring comfort and hope to them. Thanks so much, man, for coming on and sharing with us. God bless you. Andrew, God bless you. Thank you.