Desperate Prayer Is Our Only Hope

A leading pastor has an urgent prophetic warning and is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, we really are living in urgent times and the answer is found on our knees in the presence of God, crying out to our Father for mercy, for revival, for awakening, and then doing our part to be great commission ambassadors to the world around us. I'm about to be joined by a guest, dear friend, co-worker, internationally respected leader in the body, author, leading Christian thinker, with not just a prayer initiative but a strong burden, a great concern about where we are today and beyond the elections. Bottom of the hour, we're going to get to a subject I didn't get to yesterday, which is a disagreement between John MacArthur and Andy Stanley, whether to hold church gatherings or not, and how we sort these things out.

We'll do it in the constructive, God-honoring way, and if you want to weigh in or have a question, 866-34-TRUTH. Without further ado, my dear friend, bishop, Dr. Joseph Matera. Joe, thanks so much for joining us today. Well, it's an honor to be with you and I appreciate so much all the amazing work you do for the body of Christ. Well, thank you. Thank you, and I know you have a funeral to go to with the passing of your mother-in-law, so grace to your wife and to the family, and thanks for taking time right before the funeral. I really appreciate it.

Oh, well, thanks again for having me and carving out that time. Now, I do want to share with everyone the important prayer initiative that you have been working on for many weeks now, but you texted earlier something that you felt was a prophetic warning you received, and I've known you for years. You very rarely do this, but what were you struck by? What's the urgency?

What's the nature of this word? Okay, well, last week during one of our corporate prayer meetings in our local church, one of our powerful intercessors prayed something, and it was, I believe, prophetically inspired, and I have to do about the church resetting in the next four months, and basically I got a download and interpreted that with a more extensive explanation of that prayer, and basically I believe that in the next four months, the church will have to really hear from the Lord, the remnant church especially, and not just go by the Kronos, not just go by the Kronos time, that is, you know, with the all the media, the avalanche of the stuff of the elections, and just getting caught up in so busy that we missed the visitation, the Kairos moment. I believe God's about to burst on the scene with an incredible wave of revival and renewal, and he wants to do some incredible things in our midst, not just in the buildings on Sunday, but in the workplace and everywhere. So I sense that the next four months will determine the next 30 years for the church, and those churches that are sensitive to the Holy Spirit will understand the reset, they'll understand new methodologies and new ways of thinking and doing things, not compromising the message, but changing the methodologies and knowing exactly what God wants to do. So the next four months will determine the next 30 years for the body of Christ, and I pray that we have ears to hear that. The second thing I sensed along with that would be that this period of time is going to distinguish the wheat from the chaff, not only in methodologies, but in who is really hearing from God, who the remnant church is, and who are those who are just, you know, going about their business and not really doing anything but maintaining the status quo. And so I just sensed there is a wheat and chaff separation, and it's also going to reveal false leaders from true leaders. Those who are operating in their own flesh will be revealed.

There'll be more scandals, perhaps, I don't know if that's what is part of it, but the pastors and leaders and Christians who have not, depending upon the Lord, will not have what it takes to make it in these days. And so that's the second thing I sensed, and I think that in times of weariness, the third thing I sensed was in times of weariness and testing, people will be tempted to make life-altering decisions before they know how the dust will settle. And because they're operating in their own natural strength and not in the grace of God, they're going to make really bad reactive decisions. And so again, we need to know what God is saying, not make life-altering decisions during times of weariness, continue pushing through until God gives the victory, and then at the other side of this, whatever that means in terms of a breakthrough in the Spirit, we'll be able to know what God is calling us to do, but do not make rash decisions during times of intense testing and weariness. So that's the third part of that interpretation.

And Joe, let me ask this. Again, you've been around, as I have, for decades on the front lines of Christian ministry. You have a strong social conscience, you work in multi-ethnic settings and in international settings as well. So I ask this question in the light of the larger burden and vision you've carried for years. If the church does not respond rightly to the Lord in these days, if we miss this divine moment as we're in revolutionary upheaval in society in many negative and destructive ways, and at the same time it's a massive opportunity for the church, if we kind of slumber our way through this revolution, what could the consequences be for our nation and for the church in the future? Well, first of all, I think the nation is on the verge of imploding, and that was the impetus for this prayer initiative that we began. And so, in terms of our communities and nations, we are in, you know, there's a real critical task in front of the church to see a great awakening just to salvage our nation.

That's one thing. The second thing is, if the church doesn't respond to what God is doing now, the body of Christ will continue to be more and more irrelevant, more and more just flowing with the wind and tide of culture and becoming echoes of pop culture instead of being a voice from the Lord. And many pastors that think that they're being relevant by being quote-unquote woke pastors, they're going to have some huge issues in the future when they see a lot of division in their churches, and it's already happening. So God hasn't called us to be cool, he's called us to be prophetic, and I believe this, again, it's separating the weak from the chaff. Who's going to hold the line in the midst of all of this upheaval? I've been reading a lot of Bonhoeffer the last six months, trying to get wisdom from God as to how to respond, as he had to respond in the midst of a whole nation turning against Christianity.

Unfortunately, many of the Christians of his day went along with the Reich church and espoused unbiblical ideologies so that they could maintain a cultural status, and unfortunately, we're seeing that today more and more, where people feel pressured to acquiesce to a secular humanistic cultural framework. Yeah, we need to really step back, understand, and act wisely before the Lord. So, Joe, let's talk about this prayer initiative, what the vision is, and how people can be involved. Yes, well, somebody could go to uscal.us, that's uscal.us, and everything is on the website, so basically, we have three online national prayer meetings. We have one on September 16th, another October 14th, and another November 1st, two days before the election, and they're all from 7 to 9 p.m. at night, they're all online, there's no physical gatherings. In addition to that, we're asking everybody to start as of September 1st to rotate, if you're a leader of a church and you could have a virtual calendar, you'd make sure that every day you have at least one person in your church fasting and praying, and then starting Monday, October 5th until November 4th, the day after the election, we're asking for everybody to join together with a 30-day fast, corporately fasting, fast the way you know you can do it.

I mean, everybody has their different physical limitations, so I'm not going to tell you how to fast. Some people could do a juice fast, some vegetable fast, some will fast two meals, you define that between you and God, but we're asking everyone to take this time serious and fast corporately with thousands of other Christians between October 5th and November 4th, the day after the election. Now, here's the question, are we praying, are we focusing on the elections in our prayer, or is that part of a lot of a larger prayer burden? Well, as I examine the Scriptures, I believe that the biggest challenge with community and culture is always God's people. Whenever God's people stopped vertically seeking the Lord, and instead they entertained the idols of culture, it could be a statue, it could be entertainment, it could be anything, then the nation began to regress and go away from God, and so our focus is seeking God's face, not his hand. It's the church repenting, it's the church going after God, it's the church humbling itself, and he doesn't even tell us in 2 Chronicles 7, 14, which is the basis of Heal the Land initiative. He didn't tell us in that passage to pray for the land to be healed.

It's interesting. He said, oh, heal the land automatically if the church would just start seeking his face. And so, you know, I've always maintained my core values in my life and not gone crazy with all the pressure of leadership by delighting in the Lord, and I've always been in the leadership by delighting in the Lord, by having joy in God for God's sake, not because I want my family healed or finances to come or, you know, even for the nation, and I found that as I delight in the Lord, everything else takes care of itself.

It's amazing. So can you imagine if the whole body of Christ began to vertically seek God's face and repent? Now it doesn't mean that we pray for the elections. It tells us in 1 Timothy 2 to pray for kings and all those who are in authority that we may live a godly and quiet life so the gospel could go forth. So part of our initiative, we will pray for the nation and for the elections, but the large portion of it will be seeking God's face.

I want to come back to that super important point, that the prayer was not so much Lord heal our land, but Lord, we repent of our sin. I'll be right back with Bishop Joseph Montero. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the Line of Fire now by Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the Line of Fire. I'm speaking with my dear friend, Bishop Joseph Montero, talking about this important prayer initiative which started a few days ago, prayer, fasting, seeking God, crying out to God, and looking to God in repentance, understanding that we, God's people, are called to be salt and light. It's not like a country where there's one of us for every 10 million people in the country.

There are multiplied tens of millions of born-again believers in America. If we are awakened, if we live godly and righteous lives, then the nation will be impacted as a whole. Joe, what are some of the greatest concerns right now?

It's a giant question. You could talk about it for hours, but in the few minutes we have, some of your greatest concerns about the state of the church in America today? Yeah, well, you know, I'm nobody's judge, and I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I just think that, generally speaking, no matter what epoch we're living in, whether it's the Old Testament and New Testament, whether it's the 1950s or the 2020s, the greatest challenge that we will always have is idolatry. Idolatry is the worst sin.

It's worse than any kind of sexual sin and murder. That was the sin that caused God to judge Israel in the Old Testament more than anything else. David was called a man after God's heart, even though he committed adultery and even murder, but because he had a heart after God and immediately repented, God forgave him, but then you see subsequent kings who went after Ashtore and other gods. It didn't go as well for them, and the greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all of our heart.

The first of the Ten Commandments is to have no other gods before him, and I believe each of those commandments was laid out relating to the importance of it, so the first commandment was more important than every other commandment, et cetera. So I believe the greatest concern is always having a heart that's after God, that we don't use God just for benefits, and unfortunately I think that if Christians are just praying for the elections and they're not fully all out for God, I think it's an insult to God for half-baked Christians to pray for their candidate to get elected because they don't want to suffer inconvenience of persecution or the loss of their First or Second Amendment rights. I think that more importantly than the elections is that the elect seek God's face more than his hand, so that's always the biggest concern.

There's always little theological nuances, there's other things that we could talk about, but to me it all boils down to loving the Lord first more than anything else. I think we need a revival of God in our churches, not a revival of healing or faith or the gifts of the Spirit or prayer. All of that comes with it, but it has to be a revival of loving God for God's sake, not for anything else.

Yeah, I mean that's a tremendously profound comment, as simple as it is, and I was struck by what you said at the end of the last segment, that something that's kept you strong in the midst of ministry, you know, pastoral ministry in Brooklyn, couldn't have been easy all these years, and then the city-wide ministry and all of that, but you said that you put your delight in God, and that's been something my own heart's been stirred afresh for, to seek Him for Him, to be with Him for Him, to focus on worshiping Him rather than all the work and burden to do for Him or burden for the nation. I mean those things flow out of it, but it has to start with a God consciousness, and as we turn to Him, is it too late for the nation? Have we gone too far to recover things or to move into a divine destiny?

Is it too late? Are we always going to be deeply messed up because of choices we've made, or is it possible that we could see a revival of righteousness in the country? Well, I think when we look at the first great awakening with George Whitfield and John Wesley, we see the state of England, and it was horrific with drunkenness and immorality and prostitution and hardly anyone really going to church, and the awakening swept through that nation and I believe saved England. We saw the same thing in the second great awakening around the very beginnings of the 19th century. There was, in some places, there was no baptism for 30 years. Right after the Revolutionary War, the state of religion, if you want to use that word sunk to a very, very low place, and then came along people like Charles Finney who were able to bring revival to the masses that awakened the church, and to this day we're still feeling the effects of the second great awakening.

I don't believe it's ever too late for a nation. I think that God is greater than COVID. If a whole nation could be shut down in one month, God could sweep through a nation in one day. So I never underestimate God. He says, is there anything too hard for me?

Right? Jeremiah 33. Nothing is too hard for God. So I'm just focused on that more than anything else.

Yeah, absolutely, and as you said, it starts with a revival of God. Everything else flows from that. Knowing him, seeking him, honoring him, worshiping him. Hey friends, let me refer you to Bishop Matera's website, josephmatera.org.

That's M-A-T-T-E-R-A dot org. Influencing leaders who influence culture. Get his podcast. You'll be enriched, especially if you're in leadership or ministry. Subscribe to get all the materials that are available. And Joe, one last time, how can folks be part of this prayer initiative? Where do they go? Sure, thank you.

Just go to uscal.us. U-S-C-A-L dot U-S, and all the pertinent information is there. And don't worry if, you know, you missed the beginning of the fast. I mean, let's just get with it. Do the best we can. Try to get on at least one of these three online prayer meetings.

If you can get on all three, that's even better. And let's just seek God like we've never sought him. Not just so that the land will be healed, but that we could be a God-honoring people once again, where we delight in the Lord, for the Lord's sake. Amen. Amen. Hey, thanks for joining us. Grace on your family on the way to this funeral today. And this is the way we should be living right now.

It's a very sobering moment in American and world history, but a moment that could be massively redemptive. Hey, thanks for what you do. Look forward to seeing you again face-to-face soon. Yes, my friend. Thanks for having me on again. You bet. All right. God bless.

86634, truth. Serious times. And I love what Joe said, that more important, the elections is for the elect to seek God's face. It's the truth. It's what we must do. Let me share my heart about something else. And then bottom of the hour, we're changing subjects. In fact, let's do this now. Phone line's open.

86634, truth. Do you feel that Pastor MacArthur is right in saying we have to defy the law, we have to gather as believers, we can't worry about the risk of COVID and it's absolutely minimal anyway, and the law is being oppressive right now? Or should we take the approach of Andy Stanley? Do our best to honor authorities. Recognize, hey, the NBA can't have audiences and spectators, and the NFL can, and Major League Baseball can. Everybody's being affected. We can do the work of the gospel perfectly well without all meeting in the same place. What's your own stance, your own view?

86634, truth. But let me just share my heart honestly about something else. I wrote an article. I'd been having this on my mind for a while in dialogue with black brothers and sisters. I wrote an article asking what if it had been black slave owners and masters that had come over to America from Africa and whites were sold into slavery? What if white Americans had been sold as slaves to Africa? I understand that whites had been sold into slavery in different sense. I understand that. That wasn't the issue. The question was, just turn the table for a minute. Hear the horrors of it and the agony, the full terrible description.

Put it in there. But it had been blacks selling whites into slavery with the cooperation of whites that were part of the slave trade as well. Okay, then centuries later in Africa, slavery's abolished, segregation's abolished, but white Africans found themselves, say, net value, household value, one-tenth of their black counterparts, lower educational opportunities, higher crime rates, more broken families, and on and on. Even if systemic racism did not exist, wouldn't it be logical to say this must be the legacy from the past? It's the reason these whites are in a worse state than their black counterparts must be a legacy of centuries of slavery and segregation. I said I'm not writing this to ascribe guilt, nor am I encouraging victimhood.

Everyone's responsible for their own lives. But I'm saying, wouldn't it be logical to say, hey, we have bad past and we still have some of the scars of it relevant today, manifest today? I knew I'd get hit from both sides, maybe my black friend saying, you didn't go enough because you deny systemic racism today, and from my white friend saying, what are you trying to put a guilt trip on us? Of course, I dealt with both of those things in the article, but the whole goal was empathetic understanding.

The whole goal was to challenge my white friends to see things a bit more through the eyes of their black friends. I'm making generalizations here, but you know what I find interesting? The same people that are cheering me on when I expose BLM activism and Marxism and witchcraft, the same people cheering me on when I expose LGBTQ activism and extremism, when I address an issue like this, they say, man, you should stay with the gospel. You're hurting your testimony.

You just preach Christ and him crucify. I find that very interesting. They're all for it when I'm addressing certain social and cultural issues and see that as part of the gospel.

But when I say, hey, can you have a little bit more empathetic understanding for how many black Americans see things? Man, stay with the gospel. Now you're getting off track.

I find that very interesting. What do you think? We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us. Hey, Wilt of course, thanks for your gift on YouTube. Just a reminder, my friend Scott Volk on the broadcast last Thursday totally surprised me, surprised himself and said, hey, any gift that comes in today, I'll double it for Jewish Outreach.

Then texted me afterwards and said, hey, I'll give you a week. Any gift that comes in up to 5,000, I'll double it for Jewish Outreach. So if you're watching on Facebook, just click on donate, click on the donate button there, and that gift will be doubled.

If you're watching on YouTube, click on the dollar sign, that will be doubled. You can just send it in to AskDrBrown.org. Click on donate, designate Jewish ministry. All right, Pastor John MacArthur in every outspoken way to the point of even getting called by President Trump for his stand has said we have to say no to the government and meet together as churches, and I agree with him. And Pastor Andy Stanley has said, no, we need to work with the government and find other ways to gather outside of our Lord's Church gatherings, and I agree with him.

Ah, each in its context. We'll talk about that. 866-34-TRUTH. But first we go to the phones. Our friend Fail in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Welcome back to the Line of Fire. Yes, hi, Dr. Brown. Before I get started, could you please give me the email address for the fast? Okay, we will get that for you. I'll have one of our guys post it, and then someone will give it to you. So when you're done talking to me, I had our friend give it out, but I didn't have it in front of me. So stay on the line when we're done, all right?

And then someone will give it to you then. So go ahead. All right. And the reason I'm calling is because I truly agree with Brother Joseph Materia, because I was just discussing just this past week about voting, whether Donald Trump or Biden. I was telling them it's not even about that, that we get so involved in the law and not relationship. And I was just telling them God is interested now in relationship, not so much law, because no man, according to Paul, no man can really keep the law the way that God wanted us to because it doesn't really come from the heart.

You know, like tickets, we don't really not speed because it might harm somebody if we don't speed because we don't want to speed in tickets. So I agree with him. It's not about the voting and everything. It's about repentance. And I truly believe that God allows certain governments to be established for us to repent and to return back to him and stop looking at government for our source.

So I really think even with Donald Trump being in office right now, so many things have been revealed about us, about people. And so I agree with him totally that it's about relationship, not law. Yeah. And, and, and fail.

By the way, I did, as you were speaking, I, I, I remembered where to go. It's US Cal, USCAL.US. So USCAL.US. Fail. I'm going to say something that may surprise some folks. I plan to vote for Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, but I don't know what God's ultimate choice for America is.

In other words, what will be best for America? Could it be that worst times have to come on us? Could it be that greater opposition has to rise for the church? Could it be that the key is not having good justices and judges in place, but ones that are going to go against our agenda because the church is looking too much to man and it's not seeking God and not leading the way in repentance and that it's going to be more pain in order to get healing? I don't pray for it. I never, ever have prayed God bring this one in or that one in. I pray, Lord, your will.

I, I vote accordingly and I encourage everyone to be involved and vote according to their conscience and convictions and to see where the parties stand and evaluate things. But I pray, God, your will be done for the best long-term interest of your people in this nation. Hey, thank you for calling in.

866-34-TRUTH. Before I get your take on agreement or disagreement, in terms of Pastor John MacArthur and Pastor Andy Stanley, I want to say that I have no problem differing with my brothers. John MacArthur knows quite well where I've differed with him very strongly. In fact, I wrote a whole book. He wrote Strange Fire. I wrote Authentic Fire, differing with him.

He knows that full well and I respect and honor him. Andy Stanley and I connect it with me having differences with him and he knows strongly. I disagree with a lot of his book Irresistible and I joke with him I need to write a book why Andy Stanley's Irresistible must be resisted. And yet in this case, I agree with both of their perspectives within their specific contexts.

But let me take you through a few articles and then I'll get your take. Christian Post reported this. John MacArthur urges churches to challenge government and reopen amid pandemic. Andy Stanley disagrees. So these are two of the most prominent pastors in America known around the world.

This is big news. So Pastors John MacArthur and Andy Stanley, who are both influential Christian leaders, presented dueling advice on how churches should respond to government restrictions amid the pandemic this week, with MacArthur urging pastors to open because the supposed need for indefinite lockdowns is a lie, while Stanley recommended cooperation. Let's scroll down a few paragraphs. Being a pastor, John MacArthur says, means you're a truth teller. That means you're a truth teller when it comes to the Bible. That means you protect your people from deception that comes from the world. That's part of being a shepherd. You don't want to aid and abet the lie. This is a lie and you can't necessarily say that everybody that's involved in it has an ulterior motive, but the lie is dominating. You need to be a truth teller.

You need to do your homework. I would say to pastors, have church. Open up. Have church. You don't have to fear someone's going to die. You don't have to fear you're going to get sick because they're not going to be able to trace this back. I haven't seen anything like that anywhere.

Health mandates and governors are not law. I don't think you have to fear that you need to open the church because this, of all times, when people fear is where they need to come. I don't think you need to give a clinical explanation. I think you need to have to welcome them and not make the follow protocol that you know is pointless. Now, Andy Stanley says this. Oh, let's just go down towards the end of the article.

Andy Stanley says this. In light of what's happening now, there's no reason to push back because I think every evidence is our state and local and federal government is trying to figure out a really big problem. Nobody's trying to shut down the church in America unless we think there's a link between SEC football, the NFL, the NBA, and everything else that's been shut down. And I can't speak to what's going on in California.

I'm like everybody else. I just read the news. I can't imagine a scenario in the United States of America where the only group being picked on is the church unless it's a specific local church, but every local church has to operate within certain guidelines given to the government. Have you ever tried to get a land disturbance permit? There's all kinds of fire codes, building codes. It's okay for the government to speak into when we meet. Noise ordinances.

It goes on and on. So none of that is new. In most cases, those codes and restrictions are good for the community and the local church once you finally get your building built. So I don't think what's happening in our country is onerous.

So he's saying, hey, look, love your neighbor. Work with the authorities. Don't make things more difficult for them. They already have enough problems to deal with.

And they're trying to deal with this evenly and honestly. And we can meet in all kinds of ways in house groups and all kinds of settings. Then you can say on the flip side, well, hang on, you don't live in California. We're told we can gather, but we can't sing. We're told we can't meet in home groups for Bible studies. And the protesters on the street, they can do what they do, but we can't meet. And we think this whole thing is bogus because we're meeting and nobody's getting sick and dying. This whole thing is being exaggerated. Well, what if you live in the state of Nevada where the governor said, well, casinos can meet at half capacity.

Excuse me. But if you have a church gathering, you have a church building that seats 2,000, you can't have more than 50 people. What? And when a church group met in the casino, the casino was fined.

Kind of double standards are those. So I understand both positions. And when I wrote my book, When the World Stops, if you don't have it, it's totally relevant today. We wrote it to come out in the midst of the pandemic, little knowing that months and months and months later, we'd still be right in the midst of the same situation. But I counseled, obey the government.

At that time, book came out, I finished it March 26th, started it March 18th, came out March 26th, finished that rather than it came out less than a month later. I said, honor the government at this point and love your neighbor. Don't be a stumbling block. However, when there are unequal things, I mentioned Rodney Howard Brown in Florida, and when it's time to push back, then push back.

So I've said for months now, it is time to push back because of the unequal treatment. But I also know pastors that kicked up their meetings again, men of faith, godly men, had to cancel, step back because so many people got sick. I know that happened as well.

Here's another article. John MacArthur says, true believers will vote for Trump, can't affirm abortion and trans activism. And this was on a phone call, President Trump calling John MacArthur after his taking a stand and saying, we will meet. And John MacArthur explained his views, true believers will vote for Trump, can't affirm abortion and trans activism. Now, what's getting a lot of people's attention, and I don't say this to condemn or criticize, is that John MacArthur for decades has been known for not having political involvement, being outspoken, uncompromising on social issues. Never compromised, dropped, never apologized for what the Bible says. I've always commended him for that. But it's pretty much said, stay out of the political realm. So there is an article on the Grace To You website. Why does John avoid political issues in politics?

It's kind of interesting to read this now. Why does John avoid political issues in politics? And goes through five reasons. First, political involvement requires time and energy from a pastor that should be spent on shepherding the flock. Second, effective politics requires co-belligerency to promote a common cause or resist a common enemy. Third, political changes at best are only superficial and temporary. Fourth, political involvement can easily confuse the message of the church.

Fifth, political engagement often turns the church's mission into the enemy. And I understand and agree with a lot of that, and yet there's a very other side to the story, which is now coming out now. When John MacArthur wrote his book, Why Government Can't Save You, Tim Wildman wrote from American Family Association, wrote an article, Redeeming Culture Not Contrary to Sharing the Gospel of Christ. And here's what's really interesting. Tim quotes John MacArthur saying this, all right, we are to obey every civil authority, no matter how immoral, cruel, ungodly, or incompetent he or she may be, even said the United States was actually born out of a violation of New Testament principles. In other words, we revolted. So it's very interesting.

And I'm not saying this to be critical. All of us are in process on a journey. But how interesting that John MacArthur had previously said we are to obey every civil authority, no matter how immoral, cruel, ungodly, or incompetent he or she may be, now saying we need to disobey the government because the government is going beyond its righteous calling here and telling a lie.

Very interesting. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire, 866-34-TRUTH. I have encouraged pastors in California to stand up and do what they feel is right. But across the nation, I have urged pastors and leaders to hear God for their own lives, for their own congregations, to get wisdom from above, to not respond either to fear or a spirit of fear on the one hand, or to be moved by a spirit of independence and rebellion. We're going to do whatever we want to do on the other hand.

Step back, get the heart and mind of God, and do what's best for your congregation and your community. I want to hear from you, 866-34-TRUTH. We start with Laura in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to The Line of Fire. Hello.

Good afternoon. I definitely feel like we need to stand firm, and for me, I definitely believe I stand with John MacArthur, what he's doing. It's said we will have, you know, it'll be darker days, and I think we're really watching something happening right in front of our eyes. This year has been very interesting, but we just have to, and like the lady said about what you're talking about, about the rioting going on, I'm sorry, the peaceful demonstrating, you know, what they're getting away with, and then that's where, if you've got that many people doing that, but then they're not opening up churches. It's like, come on, you know, something's up.

They're trying to keep the churches closed more and more and more, and dictate to us what we need to do, you know, like mask and, you know, shut us up. You know, it's interesting. So anyway, I just stand with them, and I love the Lord, and just stand firm. Got it. All clear, Laura. All right. Thank you for weighing in.

I appreciate it. That's Laura from Raleigh. We'll stay in North Carolina and go over to Vicki in Charlotte.

What's your take? Hello, Dr. Brown. This is Vicki.

Hey, Vicki. And I agree with John MacArthur and the caller who just hung up, because we don't belong to the devil, and you remember when Pharaoh tried to tell Moses, okay, well, then just the men can go, and you all can worship, but the women and children have to stay. I think we should worship God the way God wants us to worship Him, and as far as for the pandemic, a lot of that, we don't even know if the statistics are true.

Anytime something starts to open up and people relax and start acting normally, they'll come up with some kind of big new number to keep us under control. I think the churches should go ahead and meet. Got it. You know, Vicki, that passage you mentioned is very interesting. I never thought of it in this context with Pharaoh saying, hey, you can go, but only these can go. Moses said, no, we all go.

Interesting. Hey, thank you for the call. I appreciate it. 866-34-TRUTH.

Let's go to Charles in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Pastor Brown, how are you? Doing well, thank you. Great to be on.

Enjoyed with the last two callers. I had to say, actually, I agree with them. I do stand with John MacArthur. I think the difference here, and what you read is true as well, you know, in his stance. However, I think the difference here with this situation is the fight was brought to his doorstep. He didn't cause the fight or he didn't go out actively or proactively, you know, on any kind of political level.

The mayor, you know, of Los Angeles brought the fight to his doorstep, and he stood up. So do you think a similar argument could be made for the start of the American Revolution? Well, no, the American Revolution was a decision made by our forefathers, you know, for independence. Right. No, I mean, the question was, was the fight brought to them?

Was their hand forced? Just another thought. Hey, Charles, I appreciate you weighing in very much. Thank you.

866-34-TRUTH. But we're getting flooded with our North Carolina friends today. But we've been on North Carolina daily five days a week for 12 years.

So that makes sense. Back over to Charlotte. Norman, what's on your mind? Hello, Dr. Brown.

Thank you for taking my call. My question was, just as far as what you read about John MacArthur saying that if you are, if you're a true Christian, you have to vote for Trump or you should be voting for Trump. And my question was, are there any, I guess, inconsistencies with people that support that viewpoint versus those that basically condemn when Joe Biden said, if you're black, you have to vote, you can't vote for Trump.

That's a great point. Are there any inconsistencies there? And if so, or hypocrisy, if so, what are the dangers you see in that?

Yeah, wonderful question, Norman. Number one, I could argue that you're comparing apples with oranges in that saying you're a true Christian means that you have certain moral values. Saying you're black or white doesn't imply moral choices. Or in other words, you might be a black Christian, you might be a black Muslim, you might be a black atheist, you might be a black secularist, you, whatever, right?

Same with being white. So on the one hand, you could say you're comparing apples with oranges in that being black or being white has no morality or lack thereof associated with it. However, I think where we could push the point would be that there are many things that come with voting for Donald Trump that are not Christian, that you could say are immoral, or that are negative. So to make that blanket statement, yeah, look, from my perspective, sir, I don't understand how any true believer could vote for a candidate who supports abortion.

Just like I couldn't understand, it was 150 years ago, how we could vote for any candidate that supported slavery. But then others will push back and say, what about this issue or this issue or this issue? So while I personally will be voting in harmony with John MacArthur's perspective, under no circumstances will I judge the Christian faith of a brother or sister that votes otherwise.

And I would urge them not to judge the Christian faith of someone who in turn votes for Donald Trump versus Joe Biden. Hey, thank you for the call. I'm glad you raised the question. 866-34-TRUTH. We've still got time for some more calls.

Let's go over to Atlanta, Georgia. Martin, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, how you doing?

Doing well. Yes, I agree with Andy Stanley. And the reason I do is because when he mentioned that, you know, Jesus is about love, and he said we should worship him in spirit and in truth. And with John MacArthur, it's not like they're telling him they can't, you know, worship. They just can't worship together indoors, and it has to be social distance. He's defined the law by doing it indoors, no mass, no social distance. There are people who are still worshipping, but they're doing it according to the regulations.

So I don't understand why John MacArthur is being so defiant. If you read Romans 13, all government is established by God. Governor Gavin Newsom, he's put there by God. This is God's doing. So Martin, let me just ask you one question. As I said, I appreciate Andy Stanley's perspective as well, and you are agreeing with Pastor Andy Stanley as well. Is there any point where we disobey the government?

No, and this is why. Again, Romans 13. All government is established by God.

They are God's anointing. You look back at Pharaoh. What did God say? I forgot the passage, but God said, I brought you up for this very purpose, that my power may be displayed in you. That was God. You look at Nebuchadnezzar. That was God. You look at Cyrus.

That was God. Hey, Martin. Yeah, I appreciate your perspective, and I've asked each one to share and just ask a follow-up question because I don't want to insert my viewpoint. I want you folks to be able to air yours, but Martin, thanks for raising your point here. Okay, I've got two more calls. I can't get to one agreeing with Pastor MacArthur, one disagreeing. So we tried to balance it out.

Maybe we'll take this up in the days ahead because it's going to be a relatively short video. It's going to be a relevant question. If you don't have my book still, When the World Stops, you'll find it totally relevant for everything going on in the society today, even more so than when I wrote it in late March. But let me just say this one thing about Romans 13. Yes, God raises up governmental leaders for different purposes, and sometimes it's for judgment. Sometimes it's for blessing. Sometimes it's for judgment. But it's important for us to remember this, that the purpose of government as appointed by God in Romans 13 is to do good, to be a terror to those who are evildoers, but to be a help to those who do good.

And then the question would be, what if government does not function as God intended it? But a whole discussion we need to have, and we'll do our best to have a whole hour to get your calls. But thanks for weighing in.

Thanks for your input. Be sure to visit us at AskDrBrown.org. Check out our latest videos, articles. You'll find them super relevant. God bless.