An Interview with One from Beyond, Part 2

Can we really know what to expect beyond the grave? What happens in the moments after you die?

These are serious questions that deserve clear answers. And today on Insight for Living, Chuck Swindoll continues a fascinating study in Luke chapter 16. He's describing what he calls an interview with one from beyond. If you heard the previous message, you'll recall that Jesus told the story about two men. One was a poor man named Lazarus, the other a rich man. The stark contrast in their life choices carried into the afterlife.

Let's pick up the study in Luke chapter 16. Here is a rich man who, as we will see, is eternally lost. And here is a poor man who is eternally saved. And there is a remarkable reversal of events at death. Verse 22, now it came about that the poor man died. And he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Here is a believer who dies. The body is probably thrown in the local dump, the refuse pile, not even a decent burial, but the soul of this man is exiting his body and is taken into this presence of the Lord, called here Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and he was buried. I'm sure there was a burial of great pomp and a lot of ceremony, but the real man is seen in the verses that follow. And in Hades, we find the spirit or the soul of this unsaved man. By the way, this is not a parable.

This is an actual account. Jesus knew of it and told his followers of it because he had the ability to know all things. He knew the scene. This dialogue, this interchange between the lost soul and the Lord God is unique in scripture. You won't read of this somewhere else. This is a remarkable passage. And Jesus says this man in Hades lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Now in the verses that follow, we haven't some paranormal experience reported by a man who was resuscitated. This is no vision. This is an event. This is an interview, as it were. Notice several things that occur. First, there is agony.

There is literal pain. He is in torment and he sees far away those who are at peace. Notice also he's fully conscious. He has his senses. And especially notice he has his memory. He has his memory.

It isn't obliterated when death comes. He cried out and he said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me. Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue. I am in agony in this flame. Earlier it mentions torments.

Now it mentions agony. Observe that the man could reason. He could see. He had feeling. I mention he has memory. He can hear. He can taste. It's as if he still has a tongue. But Abraham said, child, remember that during your life you received your good things and likewise Lazarus' bad things.

Now he is being comforted and you are in agony. Now for those who joke about eternity and say, well, we'll be there for a while and somebody will pray us out of there, take a good look at verse 26. Besides all this, between us and you, there is a great chasm fixed in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able and that none may cross over from there where you are to us.

There is a chasm fixed. It's impossible to change destinies. It's impossible to escape the location after death. Even if they were to wish for such, they cannot come to your rescue nor can you find their kind of comfort.

It's fixed. And he said, then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house. Now this is where it gets very, very moving. Here is a man who has such memory he recalls the scene at home. He says in verse 28, I have five brothers. I have five brothers and I beg you, father, that you would send him, Lazarus, back from the grave to my five brothers.

Why? Verse 28, that he may warn them lest they also come to this place of torment. Let me ask you something. Is it your feeling that the lost who are dead care about the lost who are alive?

You better believe it. In fact, the great concern since he cannot escape is that someone might go to his brothers and communicate to those who are still living what they're facing without Christ. That he may warn them. Talk about a missionary message. Talk about evangelistic zeal. It's in hell if nowhere else. It's there.

There's urgency there. Oh, that someone could go to my brothers and someone from the dead with the marks of hell on them, let them go and appear to my five brothers who are living like I lived, denying what I denied. This certainly cuts at the superficial comments we often hear from people who say, I'll just be in hell with all my buddies. It's a stupid statement and you just need to read a few verses in this passage to realize there's no companionship there.

There's an awful sense of loneliness. Now note the answer. In response to him, he says, verse 29, they have Moses and the prophets.

Meaning what? They have the word of God. They have the book. They have the scriptures.

They have Moses and the prophets. Let them who are alive hear the truth of scripture. Let them hear the verses. Let them hear the preachers. Let them hear the broadcasts.

Let them hear the message. Look at him. Verse 30. No, no, Father Abraham. But if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.

See, he's bargaining with him. Lord, he says, I know they've got it. They've got Bibles stacked in their bookshelves. They've got Bibles available on the dining room table. They have Bibles in the study. There's Bibles all over that place.

No. But if someone were to go to them from the dead, they'd repent. They'd believe.

That's all it would take. I find the next response absolutely amazing. Verse 31. He said to the man in hell, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead. You talk about the power of the scriptures. If you could bring to a lost person the presence of someone who has been in hell to tell them of the message, or if you could bring to the lost person the truth of the scriptures, the scripture would be more convincing of the two. We have available to us in our Bibles sufficient truth to do the job. It is all that is needed to convince the person without Christ that they are missing what life is all about. Even if you could do something miraculous, which we cannot, like bring someone back from beyond, you could not have as great an impact as you do in preparing the life by presenting the scriptures.

They have Moses and the prophets. If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they wouldn't be persuaded if someone rose from the dead. You know how I would put this entire message in one sentence? It would be this sentence. Those who ignore the word of God in life will not be ignored by the God of the word in death.

Those who ignore the word of God in life will not be ignored by the God of the word in eternity. Messages like this never fail to raise questions. You have quietly and patiently sat there and probably had questions flash into your mind.

I know if I were sitting where you're sitting so would I if this were coming to me for sort of like a bolt out of the blue. So let me answer four or five of the what I would call the major questions that haunt people. One of them says this, how can a loving God send people to hell? Now that question bothers me.

I don't like the way it's worded because I don't like its implications. So if you'll allow me to analyze the question before I answer it, it would help. The question seems to imply that God is indulgent, goody goody, weak, and that mankind is being taken advantage of, handled cruelly and without feelings. And God is sort of taking delight saying get out of my sight and pushing people against their wills.

So if that is what is meant by the question, then that needs to be addressed first. But if it's an honest question, my answer would be that God has established the ground rules. That's his sovereign right. As the creator of life, his ground rule states that those who believe in his son will have eternal life. Those who do not believe in his son will not have eternal life with him. The believers will have the blessedness of heaven. Those who reject the message must face the punishment of that rejection. Unless you think God is unmoved over that scene, you'll need to put in your mind 2 Peter 3 and verse 9 which states, the Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you. Not wishing for any to perish, but for all A-L-L to come to repentance.

Remember that verse. When someone presents to you the idea that God cruelly and gleefully dances about heaven as people are dumped out of their will into hell, present to them 2 Peter 3-9. What about those who have never heard is a major question. What about those who sincerely follow their own beliefs and their own religion? I want to say that we must be careful about stepping into the role of God. Only he knows the destiny of people. People that you and I might think are not in the family may be.

People you and I may think are in the family may not be. That thought haunts me a lot since I see a lot of church people and I have reason to wonder about their eternal destiny since by their fruits you shall know them. God alone knows the heart.

He alone is the one who makes the final determination. Not all who call him Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom. Not all who think they are lost are lost. Don't misquote me.

Just remember the way I said that. Some have come to know Christ and have thought that they've lost it. If you've truly come to know Christ you cannot lose such a thing. Now look at this statement in Romans chapter 10 if I may have you turn back there please. Let's understand that sincerity is not the basis of salvation. Faith in Christ is. Romans 10 verse 14. How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? That's the first domino.

There are several that bump up against the other and these are bumping up against one another. How shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher? How shall they preach unless they are sent? How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things.

However they did not all heed the glad tidings for Isaiah says Lord who has believed our report. So faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Literally hearing of a word concerning Christ.

In order to have eternal life with God one must come to know Jesus Christ. God has wonderful ways of getting our attention. He uses the natural phenomena. He uses general revelation. He uses circumstance. He uses people. He uses written material. He uses living human beings who make the message known.

He uses any number of things. And the marvel of his plan is that he has a wonderful way of reaching far beyond what we think he is reaching. While I'm on this subject let me add that to the surprise of some of you I believe there will be degrees of punishment.

I see those looks. Luke chapter 12 verses 47 and 48 and I could use other passages but this seems to be the best one. I rather suspect that there will be a different kind of punishment for those who are without Christ and die apart from the knowledge of him as we know knowledge and those who have heard over and over again and reject it. Luke 12 47 48. That slave who knew his masters will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will shall receive many lashes but the one who did not know it and committed deeds worthy of a flogging will receive but few.

And from everyone who has been given much, much shall be required and to whom they entrusted much of him they will ask all the more. I want you to think on it before you say I'm a heretic. Think about the whole idea of degrees of punishment. Understand that no one without Christ goes to heaven. But how God handles those who are without Christ and what measure of punishment is completely up to him. I just know that heaven is not their home. What about deathbed repentance?

That's another question. I hear about people who tell me stories of folks and I've been there when they when they believed in Christ having not believed all their lives and now dying they express faith in the Lord. Once again remember no one can determine the eternal destiny of an individual but God himself.

He knows the heart. But I am on occasion drawn back to Luke 23, 39 to 43 and you who know your Bibles know that this is the scene at the cross where the thief is hanging beside our Lord and he has been a thief. He has lived the life of the unsaved and he makes a statement and Christ acknowledges it. Luke 23, 39. One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at him saying are you not the Christ?

Save yourself and us. The other answered rebuking him saying do you not even fear God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation and we indeed justly look at his statement of faith we justly are receiving what we deserve for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong and he was saying Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom and Jesus said to him truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise. Is that a wonderful hope, wonderful promise? Now be careful about making people say the very words you want to hear so you can say in return now you're a Christian. Be careful about giving them the prayer that they must pray or giving them the words that they must say and then when they say that they're saved at least you tell them that. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say Lord Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom but in this case that was sufficient because the Lord read the heart. Once again we evangelicals if we're not careful we'll get too specific and we'll require of someone right down to the nubbies exactly what we expect them to say before we're comfortable that they're born again. On the other hand some may say that and not be born again. Works both ways.

A couple more and then we're through. What about the death of little babies? I often help people with this one and they struggle because they've lost a little child that never reached an age of understanding. It's my understanding that a child that has not reached an age of response a time when they can reason with even in a childlike way the Lord Jesus and the claim upon their life that he makes that they upon death will be with the Lord. And the basis of that the best passage I know to refer to that is 2nd Samuel 12 23 where David says of the child that has died I will go to him but he will not return to me.

Somehow in God's wonderful plan there is in heaven a place reserved for the infant. For the young life who is on this earth taken and I'm comforted that David says he can't come back to me which is interesting. Speaks a word regarding reincarnation doesn't it? He cannot come back to me but I can go to him. Speaking of reincarnation that's the final one.

Is it valid? I obviously do not believe in it. People say John 3 is a good basis of it. You must be born again.

I've heard that used. Hebrews 12 we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses and they say see people have come back and they surround us and if there were reincarnation I think scripture would refer to several deaths that the same soul would pass through but scripture always refers to death of an individual and singular. Furthermore Hebrews 9 27 says it's appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment. Job 7 8 through 10 the eye that now sees me will see me no longer. You will look for me but I will be no more as a cloud vanishes and is gone so he who goes down to the grave does not return.

Reading Job 7 8 through 10 he will never come to his house again his place will know him no more. And don't forget that great chasm fixed which we just read about. He says to the man in torment there is a great chasm fixed.

Those cases where reincarnation seems to be promoted and published I believe are cases of demonism. Now I have one final question for you which only you can answer. Where are you going to spend eternity?

Only you can answer that. I want to warn you as I close this message against just being fascinated by subjects like afterlife experiences and the OBE world and all that goes with the fascination and intriguing stories that come from deathbeds. All the while engaged in all that kind of study you can miss your moment of faith. I'd like us to bow for a little bit of time together. The evening is young you have time to think to ponder and because only you can answer the condition of your inner being then you answer where am I going to spend eternity? If I were to die tonight in a matter of seconds where would my soul be? And I plead with you yet again if you are not absolutely certain that you would be in the presence of the Lord make certain now. Trust in Jesus Christ now.

Take him now. I want to lead us in prayer and I want you to join me even if you have just now come to Christ. You especially. Let's bow together. Lord thank you for speaking to us today about these profound subjects that are beyond us beyond our own human ability to comprehend. Thank you for knowing the ending from the beginning for you life beyond this earth is as clear and understood as life for us on this earth today.

And so we place ourselves at your disposal. We entrust to you the future. I ask that you would bring comfort to those who grieve that you would bring clarity and understanding to those who have been confused. You would bring reassurance regarding eternity to those who have been in doubt and uncertainty. Thank you for Christ who has loved us and died for us who has gone on before us even through the grave and beyond it victoriously overcoming the grip of death. Thank you that through him we can also know such power and victory.

So we entrust our lives to you including our future. Wherever that may take us we leave with you and we thank you for getting us beyond this life through death and on into eternity with you. With heaven as our home. In Jesus name we claim that and we pray. Amen. As Chuck Swindoll said earlier those who ignore the word of God in life will not be ignored by the word of God in death.

Perhaps you're finally prepared to deal with the issues that have been a barrier between you and God and you're ready to embrace his gift to you. Please stop by our website where you'll discover a wealth of free resources that will help you take your first steps. To learn more visit us online at insight world dot org. A long time ago Chuck made a statement and a message that's been quoted over and over again. In fact it's possible you've seen these words in a wall frame. He said I am convinced that life is 10 percent what happens to you and 90 percent how you react. This single sentence is actually connected to a much longer message. I'm pleased to say the entire message is included in a brand new book and we'd love to send you a copy today.

The full title is life is 10 percent what happens to you and 90 percent how you react. To purchase a copy right now call us. If you're listening in the United States call 800-772-8888 or go online to insight dot org slash store. Chuck's personal mission on these programs is to help you align your attitude with the truth of scripture and these daily visits are made possible of course because people just like you give voluntary donations. We're especially grateful for our regular monthly givers. We call them monthly companions. Through your gifts you're providing a constant source of reliable Bible teaching for people who have come to rely on Chuck's daily presence. To become a monthly companion right now call us. If you're listening in the United States call 800-772-8888 or you can sign up online at insight dot org slash monthly companion. I'm Bill Meyer Chuck Swindoll's classic series growing deep in the Christian life continues next time here on insight for living. The preceding message an interview with one from beyond was copyrighted in 1985 1987 2005 2011 and 2014 and the sound recording was copyrighted in 2014 by Charles R Swindoll. All rights are reserved worldwide. Duplication of copyrighted material for commercial use is strictly prohibited.