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PRCUALife, protecting life through all its stages. All right, for my YouTube channel, if not for God with Mike Zwick, just like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell so you'll be alerted when we have our next video. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. If Not For God with Mike Zwick. We actually have a couple of special guests and one of them, I wasn't sure if he was showing up. You guys haven't heard from him in a little while, my good friend Robbie Dilmore, the Christian car guy. And we've also got a very special guest from Burlington, North Carolina, Cameron Horner. Cameron Horner actually grew up in Burlington, I believe. His mother, Joanna Horner, is big into evangelism, and so is his sister.
Is that right, Cameron? Yeah, it's funny. We have a whole family that radically came to the Lord at different times and in different ways. It's been cool to watch just the various ministries flourish over the past decade. And my mother's story goes further back than that, of course. Yeah, and from my standpoint, for those longtime listeners of The Truth Network, they would know that Disciple magazine was Cameron Horner's.
He had a show on that used to be on Saturdays that was connected to Kingdom Pursuits, and then Disciple magazine came on right after that. It was cool. Yeah, and actually, me and my mother both had a show on that. That's right. That's right, Joanna. What was hers called?
Something with kids, I recall. It was Walking God's Path, or God's Path. Oh, it was God's Path. That was so cool.
God's Path. You know, it's funny, because I know we weren't going to talk about this too much, but you know, we're big here on If Not For God with Mike Zwick. We're big on being pro-life, and so when I thought about being pro-life, I thought of a great example of why you would be pro-life would be Cameron Horner. You know, so many times I've heard that people decide not to have their baby because the baby may have Down syndrome or because the baby may have some sort of a birth defect or something like that. But was it 10 or 11 years ago? What happened, Cameron?
Yeah, 10 and a half years ago, August of 2011, I had a diving accident and broke my neck and have been paralyzed ever since. Like you said, we weren't going here, but I definitely resonate with that because the idea is if the baby is going to be disabled, we need to get rid of him, and the Lord decided not to get rid of me, but to allow me to live on disabled and has used my injury for a lot. Yeah, interesting connection.
I don't think in terms of abortion that way very much, but yeah, it's very interesting that you state that. And me too, because you know, I teach special needs, and if you've been in my class on Sunday, and you know, our class, some of them are in their 60s and 70s, and usually people with Down syndrome don't live that long, unfortunately, but a lot of them do. And like, if you could hang out with these guys, like, oh my goodness, like, you know, they can worship the Lord as only they can worship the Lord, and they can see God, you know, because we're going to be talking about eschatology and a lot of stuff about, you know, how people see God, but what a cool group.
Their theology is very unique and very beautiful and very simple, you know, like, the childlike faith that they have is spectacular. Something you don't want to miss if you ever have a chance to discuss it with them. Not at all. And so, Robbie Dilmore, you've been on the radio for, is it 20 years, 19 years?
17, almost 18 now. You know, the Mike Zwick, the way is, you know, we stretch it out a little bit, exaggerate a little bit, don't mind, you know, but the... You get that from, you know, there's two Epperson trainings. There you go.
He's written 47 books. There you go. Stu is just excited about everything. Just excited. That's all it is.
The fish was this big. But today we're actually going to be talking about a subject that can be very divisive, but we're not talking about the subject to be divisive. We're talking about the subject because we think it's an interesting subject, and with everything that's going on in the world, especially since 2020, and what a year I started on the radio, 2020.
It really is. Ever since 2020, people have just wanted to talk about eschatology. What is eschatology? It's the discussion of end times. What's going to happen right before Jesus returns, or as some people seem to think, or we're in the millennium right now, or whatever it is. But I wanted to preface the whole show with this, that Robbie, one of the men who really helped you grow in the Lord, and you were actually dying of cancer, was somebody who believed in amillennialism.
Is that right? Yeah, the longtime pastor at Ronaldo Presbyterian was this spectacular man by the name of Richard Little, and he happened to go buy the dealership in 1996 when I had lymphoma, killer cell lymphoma, actually, and said that he had felt the Lord press on him that somebody wanted to, that needed to be healed at the dealership that day. And so he came in, my finance manager, when he told him that, goes to went to Ronaldo at the time and said, oh, you must mean Robbie. He's back in his office. He won't come out because he looks like a freak because he's covered in these tumors. And so he came back job.
Yeah, I did. And I was a baby believer, and I certainly did not have the faith to be healed at all. You know, I thought the guy was a nut because I mean, this man is pouring oil on my head.
Why is he doing this exactly? You know, because I didn't know anything about that. And he was laying hands on me and he was praying. But what I did know was he was very sincere. And, you know, at this point in time, I'm really scared.
So whatever this guy has, whatever is going on, I'm going along with it. But as he prayed, I felt something different. And then no doubt, that was on a Friday. And then Monday when I went to go get my chemotherapy treatment that day, when I woke up, I had not a tumor on me anywhere. And of course, there are a lot of people praying.
So I've never known if it was the accumulation effect. Pastor Little just was put it over the edge or how it all worked. What I know is I woke up that morning and I didn't have any tumors.
And Baptist Hospital was amazed, took lots of pictures and all that stuff. And as I got to know Pastor Little better and better, and I began to understand his theology, had some of the most beautiful views of end times I've ever heard. His way of explaining it was different than any, you know, when people just say all millennium, they put them in a group and this is the way that they expect that to be. Meaning that they believe that the thousand year reign is happening right now is what all millennia really is. And it's a spiritual, I think, right. Is that right?
Right. But by the same token, he, you know, if you went to run all this time, you know, they spoke in tongues and stuff in the service. And so, you know, he was very open to discuss that with you, which you don't find a lot of people are open to discuss it. And he, he, he, he came up there. He said, Oh yeah, a lot of that's mumbo jumbo.
He said, but you don't, you don't know which is the mumbo jumbo and which is the real thing, Robbie. So you just, you just got to, you know, and he had such a beautiful, loving, you know, at that time in Winston Salem, there were three or four pastors that just had the phenomenal grace. And, and we were very blessed.
We were very blessed to have him, pastor Mark Quartz, people like that. Their eschatology would have been dynamically different, but amazing, amazing brothers. So the, the, the point there is that you, you just shared a story about God doing a miracle for an amillennialist. You could say the same story about a post-millennialist and a pre-millennialist and somebody who probably doesn't even have eschatology. So I think the point there is that God really, he cares, but it's, it's not as high on his, on his list of priorities as we might think what your eschatology is.
He, he still, he still loves the body of Christ and he still wants unity around his son, despite what your eschatology is. So, you know, as we enter into this discussion, I think we wanted to have this kind of to preface that this is not something to divide around. Now, there's implications that perhaps could be divisive and even dangerous that we might would want to divide about, but overarchingly the, the three primary views of eschatology are not something to divide about, but something to sit down with coffee with somebody and discuss and, and say, look, let's unify around the important stuff and eschatology, while it is important, again, it's not, it's not something to divide about. Sure. And so, you know, as we kind of get into this, Cameron, and I know we were talking about this a little bit before, but what is amillennialism?
Yeah. So as Robbie mentioned, all three of the terms that we're going to use, amillennialism, post-millennialism, premillennialism, every person is going to have a different definition generally of what that is. So, you know, two amillennialists are going to probably have some points different.
However, there are some broad brushstroke similarities. So first of all, amillennialism, the name itself means no millennium, you know, amillennial. But that's a misnomer because they all believe that there isn't, or most will believe there is a millennium. But amillennialism sees the millennial reign of Christ, which is talked about, really only one place in the Bible is Revelation 20, says that Christ will reign for a thousand years. There's a resurrection, Christ will reign for a thousand years. They see that thousand year reign as a metaphor or a symbol for the current reign of Christ in heaven over the saints who have passed away. So let's say, Mike, you know, bless you, you passed away right now, you went to you went to see the Lord in heaven, and you're enjoying heavenly bliss for, you know, a certain period of time until Christ comes back to the earth. You're enjoying his sovereignty and reign in heaven, right? And so the amillennialist would say, what Revelation is talking about is actually that experience in heaven.
It's a metaphor for Christ's reign in heaven over the deceased saints until his second coming to the earth. Yeah, and so I believe you and I are both premillennial, post-tribulation. Robbie, is that what you are as well, or do you know?
Not to put you on the spot. Are you, you know, again, I love what the actual young man that pointed Pastor Little to me, put it this way, he said, you know, I'm praying pre-trib and I'm beginning ready for post-trib. Exactly.
There you go. And so that's kind of where I fall into that camp. Like, I really can't make myself grasp onto the idea of premillennialism. I see it, I know where it's coming from, and I certainly love Dr. Jeremiah. I mean, I love, love, love a lot of the people that teach it.
In fact, Pastor Quartz taught it. No, Robbie, you said premillennialism. I'm sorry, I'm pre-trib. I'm sorry. Sorry. Okay.
Yeah, I'm definitely pre-millennial. There you go. Okay. All right. Because I don't use these terms all that often.
I'm just a car salesman, don't forget that. You don't talk about eschatology and all the dudes all the time? So yeah, I am premillennial, but as far as trib, I am probably a post-tribber, thinking that he's coming after the tribulation. But again, if he'd have showed up, I'm good.
There's no complaint from anybody in this room. If we're out of here before the tribulation, we're good to go. And the pre-trib, I think, really started, it got big in the 1830s. There was a lady named Margaret Macdonald, and she either, she was in a trance or she had a vision, and she said, we're not going to be here for the tribulation. And I believe it was a guy named Edward Irving who remembered that, and he kind of ran with it. And then it kept going and going and going from one person to the other.
And then there was a gentleman by the name of Schofield, and you've probably heard of the Schofield Bible. And he ran with it. And he started off, I think he was an attorney general, the youngest one in his state at the time. But then he was under a cloud of fraud. He had to leave, left his wife, and was a big heavy drinker. I mean, he admitted all of this.
So this is nothing new. But afterwards, he got saved. He got radically saved. And I'm trying to think of the guy's name who really taught him, but he bought into this whole pre-tribulation rapture idea. And so he would go around, and he would start teaching this, and he would give the credentials that he had a DD, a doctor of divinity. Now, nobody's ever been able to verify that. And that's to put it very nicely. And they've never found that he actually was a doctor of anything.
But that's what he did. And he was very influential in getting the whole pre-trib idea out there. Dwight L. Moody was big in the pre-trib. And then once, I think, the 1900s came around, and that idea became really big. And then there was a book that came out around, oh, gosh, it was 1970, I want to say. And it was The Late Great Planet Earth. I think it was in the 80s, maybe. Maybe I'm wrong. I think that book was in 1970 or so. And the reason I say that is because- I'm too young to know.
No, that's okay. There was a guy named Bruce Gore, and he's a Presbyterian, and he explains all of this. But he was talking about it. And he said, I want to go see Hal Lindsey, the guy who wrote this book. And he says, now, I don't know when Jesus is coming back. This was Hal Lindsey. He said, but if he wasn't back by 1975, I would be shocked. And this was right around the time of 1971. And Bruce Gore said, well, what's the point of going back to school?
Because he was a pre-tribber at the time as well. But he talked about Israel in that book. And I think he said the latest that Jesus could come back was 1988. And it had something to do with Israel and this and that. But that's kind of where that belief is.
And a lot of people are actually walking away right now from the pre-trib belief. Now, we've talked a little bit about amillennialism. Postmillennialism is a little- is similar to amillennialism, right? But there's a little bit of a difference, Cameron?
Yeah. So some people say that they're the same views. It's just the amillennialist is more pessimistic and the postmillennialist is more optimistic. Meaning, so whereas the amillennialist, they saw the thousand year reign of Christ as a metaphor for Christ's heavenly reign over his saints. The postmillennialist would see the thousand years, again, there's variation, but the thousand years as something that we're actually presently in. We're in the millennial reign of Christ, but it's not in heaven.
It's on the earth. So whereas a premillennialist, which is what we are, we're going to see things not necessarily get better and better until Christ comes back. We're actually like, there's going to be some revivals.
There are going to be some incredible things that God does, but in the end, there's going to be great suffering and things are generally going to get worse before Jesus comes back. The postmillennialist actually believes that we as the body of Christ partner with God through the Holy Spirit to turn to basically Christianize the earth and it's going to continue to get better and better until a golden age, which is when all the earth is Christianized. The golden age lasts for a certain period of time. Some say the golden age is a thousand years.
Okay. And then at the end of the golden age, Jesus comes back and actually receives a perfected earth, so to speak. Now, not perfected in the sense that like everything is perfect. There's no more death, no more sickness, but everybody essentially has heard the gospel and has turned to Christ and then Jesus comes back. And so suffering is not removed from that view, but it's definitely downplayed. So some postmillennialists would say that the kingdom expands through the suffering of the saints, but it's definitely not a major tenant of postmillennialism because let's face it, things are getting better and better until Jesus comes back.
Well, obviously, I mean, you can just turn on the news and you can see that things are getting better and better, right Cameron? Yeah. The interesting thing about that view from my perspective is I just am looking at it from, and both Mike and Cameron know how much I love the Jewish community and study, you know, kabbalistic ideas and all this thing, but their, you know, if you want to talk about their eschatology of, you know, of a devout Jew is that they are constantly working towards meriting the coming of Mashiach. And so it's like that post, in other words, we're partnering with God in order to make the world a place where Mashiach can come and that they would merit, which is kind of a scary thought, that when you think about that, wow, you know, there you get the idea of that tradition is going to bring in, you know, the Mashiach, you know, and so that's kind of an interesting thing that you just see as you stand back and look at it. But there are people that obviously from their perspective, dearly, dearly, dearly love God, dearly, literally love the Torah, the Bible and all this. And they have kept those things for us in so many different ways that we would never have the understanding that we have today had they not kept it that way.
Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned that Robbie, because that tendency goes all the way back really, even before, well, all the way back to the Pharisees, we'll say, because the Pharisaic movement, which actually we would resonate with a lot of the Pharisaic movement. They've been really, you know, dragged to the mud and Christian tradition, but the Pharisee movement really was similar to in their beliefs and hopes to what Paul preached and what Jesus preached.
The difference was this. They believe that to gain the kingdom, you needed to have pristine righteousness and Torah obedience. And what Jesus, you know, that's, that's a simplified answer, of course, but what Jesus came along to do was to confront that tendency and say, actually, you're not going to gain the kingdom through your righteousness. You have to wait in humility in, in a position of taking up your cross. And you have to wait until and you have to wait until I do the work of bringing the kingdom. So that same tendency though, to figure out all these different ways of how we're going to bring the kingdom of Messiah to the earth, that same tendency was picked up in Christian tradition very quickly, actually.
And, you know, Constantine, by the time you get to the Constantinian shift, then basically the kingdom of God becomes the church on the earth and it leads to the crusades and all these different things. Yeah, because it really, the whole idea, it's beautiful to study Ecclesiastes, the idea of under the sun. And it all actually started with Cain, okay? Because, you know, Cain plowed the earth because he wanted to help God, you know, make a better crop. That was the whole reason his offering wasn't accepted, right? And so it's the idea of toiling under the sun.
My toil is going to make this happen. Well, you know, that's a trap and Abel didn't fall into that trap and his brother got so mad at him, he killed him, you know, and under the sun ever since. This is, you read the book of Ecclesiastes and then again in the beginning of the Song of Solomon, you have the same thing.
My brother's family was mad with me. They made me keepers of the vineyard under the sun. And I even, like, you know, we were talking about YouTube downloads here just not long ago, you know, like, and so easily everything that we get done, everything, you know, they're wanting to tempt us. These Bible apps that, you know, tell you, oh, this is your sixth day in a row, you know, they're trying to get you to toil under the sun, you see. Somehow you could earn it.
Somehow you're going to merit and it just, you know, God doesn't look at it that way. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So the, and that is good. So the, but this is the, what are some of the problems with amillennialism and post-millennialism in your opinion? Yeah. So, you know, this is really the crux of the issue.
I wrote down a number of things. The first one though, that honestly my mind doesn't go to first, but I realize is probably the most important. And I think the foundational one is that the glory of Jesus is at stake. And here's what I mean. The post-millennial view is probably the one that I have the most trouble with. Amillennialism, you know, I can almost, I can almost hang with that one a little bit more, but the post-millennial view that we are partnering with God to actually bring about the restoration of all things and partnering with God to bring about new creation, the problem is the problem with that as great as that, as that may sound, the problem with that is that it is the glory of Jesus alone to bring about the garden of Eden. You know, that is, that is like part of what God said, you are worthy.
So I'm going to allow you to do this element. So one text that I'll read is, and honestly, this theme is all through the Hebrew Bible into the new Testament, but Isaiah 63, four through five, this is basically the Messiah is speaking, or it is the Messiah speaking. The day of vengeance was in my heart and my year of redemption has come. I looked, but there was no one to help.
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold. So my arm alone brought me salvation and my wrath upheld me. So you have this picture, and this isn't the only place of it. It is Jesus's glory that is being exemplified and displayed when he comes to do the day of the Lord and to bring restoration to the earth. It's actually, it's actually part of his glory. Now, you know, the post-millennialist would reply, well, no, I mean, it's still Jesus doing it, but he's doing it through us.
And I understand that. But what I want to say is that there is no part that we're going to play in that because this was reserved purely for Jesus. So we're not reestablishing the garden.
We're not overturning the curse. We're not doing these things because that is reserved for the glorious Jesus when he comes. So that's the first problem that I see is that, you know, we're called to do so many things in the earth right now, but none of those things are going to be doing the things that only Jesus is worthy to do when he comes. And in Isaiah, you know, 9, where everybody knows, you know, the famous, you know, Handel's Messiah, his same kind of thing, because what, you know, when he's there fixed his safe for unto us a child is born unto us a son is given, the verse before that is spectacular in Hebrew. You don't see it so much in English, but in Hebrew, it'll blow your mind because what it says in English, for every battle of the warrior is with confused noise and garments rolled in blood, but this shall be a burning for the fuel of fire. Well, in Hebrew, what that's actually saying is the victory cry of the warrior.
In other words, he's just been victorious, not with my help, by the way, and with a earthquake. Okay. And garments rolled in blood. Okay.
Well, what garments of all time were rolled in blood? Jesus is. Right. They were, they was literally rolled on them. And was there an earthquake that rolled the stone back?
Just saying. And when you look at that right before it says for unto us a child is born, but then it says that this fire is coming. Well, the fire, from my perspective, and everybody gets to interpret their own way with their own, is right, the tongues of fire are coming not shortly thereafter.
Right. And that burning is going to continue to heat up, from my perspective, until the Holy Spirit and, you know, is bringing Jesus in its own way, which is, to me, one of the critical parts of any eschatology is, man, I want Jesus to come, and I want him to come now, and what can I do to help you so that you can be with me in this view of, man, he's the most beautiful thing that ever happened, and boy, we gotta get her done. Yeah, it's so good. Cameron, I'm really glad to have you on, and Robbie too. Robbie, you have a YouTube channel now as well, and it's R-O-B-B-Y, Robbie Dilmore, not Gilmore, D-I-L-M-O-R-E, and then Cameron, you have one as well? Yeah, you can search Cameron Horner Ministries. I don't do as much on YouTube.
There is one site that you can find my stuff, danieltrainingnetwork, all one word, dot com, and a lot of great teachings on that site, but I'm one of the trainers there, and you can just search on him. Make sure to subscribe to those two, and then might as well have If Not For God with Mike Zwick. I'll tell you what, this was a show, and I'll tell you, it was... It kind of comes back to that, Mike, If Not For God. All right, for my YouTube channel, If Not For God with Mike Zwick, just like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell, so you'll be alerted when we have our next video.
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