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May 5, 2021 1:00 am
Mike is once again joined by friend and speaker Cameron Horner, of Cameron Horner Ministries, to hear Cameron's testimony, discuss the impact his accident had on his faith, and see how faith and healing intersect, as they explore Hebrews 11.
This is Michael Carbone with the Truth Network were partnering with Bible league international on open the floodgates Bibles for Africa in many parts of countries like Kenya, Ghana, Tanzania and Mozambique as many as 9/10 Christians are denied God's word by corrupt governments majority religions in poverty and remoteness five dollars and the Bible. $100 since $2500 sends 100 call 800 yes word that's 800-937-9673 thank you for caring.
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Your host Mike with Sue this is Mike Swick with if not for God with Mike's quick and once again we've actually got an order back super excited to have this guy back. We just did another show about the book of Revelation. Revelation 13 in the show when we talk a little bit about faith. Once again, a Cameron hoarder 18 years old Karen Horner experience a life-changing injury while on family vacation.
Believe it was White Lake at White Lake and when he dove in a shallow water breaking his neck and leaving him with a spinal cord injury and paralyzed from the chest down. God graciously saved Cameron from dying by giving him more air than normal while underwater so that his friend could find him in time.
After this injury. Karen went to Atlanta Georgia to begin a four month stay at a rehabilitation hospital where he underwent intense therapy to learn to live life again.
The Lord, he prepared Cameron and his family to go through this intense journey and was with them every step of the way since this injury, Cameron has traveled to various places including overseas to share his story of God's grace he teaches at various locations and lead small groups and when not speaking, Karen operates through his nonprofit ministry, Cameron Warner ministries and today were actually to be doing a show on healing and the show on on faith and insert open it up to be looking at Hebrews chapter 11 it says. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen for by the elders obtained a good report and testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible by faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts and through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death and was not found, because God had taken for before he was taken. He had this testimony that he please God, but without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him and and Karen as I as I read those words from the word of God.
One of the things that are reminded of is the absolute miracle of how you're still here a matter fact I think when your diving accident took place. It was and it was 2011. Is that right at White Lake and what happened was the was the day before you actually had a there was a lady who was with you she was a lifeguard and you guys practice something is not right. It's it's as if we practice so I was on found vacation best friend was there with us and she was a former lifeguard named Christina so I can use her name but she is former lifeguard and we were swimming the day before my injury occurred, and while were out there my little niece Courtney was there with us and Courtney asked my friend Christina hey Christina, how do you save someone when they're drowning. So to demonstrate. I pretended the ground and Christina pretended to save me and I was actually in the exact position when I was pretending to ground that I would be the very next day and so was fresh in her mind when she actually needed it. When I was actually drowning next day and then so when you are drowning. The next day and this is what you can see in you can you can check it out it's on Facebook.
He was on the 700 club. You can also go to YouTube and check out the video as well, but you said you were drowning.
I guess you couldn't move your paralyzed at the time and you said you couldn't breathe and all of a sudden he could tell that you are running out of air, but then something happened that correct so to paint the picture on you know an athletic 18-year-old that just doesn't.
I'm not afraid of water and so I had been diving through the whole kind of time that we are there and this was day two, but on day two of our trip. Christina and I decided Liska swimming and the docks at White Lake are fairly long, so if anybody has been there. Don't know what I'm talking about and I decided I want to do a just a really good dive and so I take off down to the end of the of the dock and I jump into the air, spread my arms and one hit the water because I was running so fast I went straight to the bottom and what we could talk about all that occurred in that moment, but because of the way that I hit the water. I went straight to the bottom head collided with the bottom and my shoulders came up and my nectar shattered and sought immediate spinal cord injury which causes paralysis.
So if you see someone paralyzed is most likely that they had a spinal cord injury. When you have spinal injury Move and wondered what when you paralyzed. You can't move and some people can't move more than others, but for me in that moment I was completely paralyzed.
While I could almost just barely move my arms but very little, but I was under the water holding my breath and holding it for quite some time for me.
It was quite some time because I wasn't a swimmer and I was deftly not in that moment prepared to take in a be underwater for the long and some hold my breath hold the breath. My lungs are are just on fire and I knew under the water. At some point. My body is going to reflexively make me take more air and went to the owner under the water. That doesn't work, that's what people drowned, but that feeling came a feeling came, and then suddenly that reflex occurred where my body was like we have to breathe now but I can explain it and try not to make more of it than it is but it was very impactful.
It was just as if I had more air.
So I went to gulp and I didn't take in water as a gesture that was just more air there and it was like I don't know if it was in my throat or how that works but I remember being so impressed.
Afterwards, I told people about it like I was going to take in. I was going to the gas but I just was able hold on a little bit longer and then another. Probably 15 seconds passed and my lifeguard friend to we practice the day with just appeared right beside me just say the same thing. It was like I peered right at her feet. She reached down for my head, pulled me up and began pulling back. Sure while and so it was a miracle of miracles that that that you made it, and then for sure.
You know it's interesting in this is what I kinda wanted to get into a little bit was that after that this huge miracle you thought that you were just to get out of the wheelchair be completely healed. So the so much back story to all of this, but long story short I had I've come to the Lord well. This injury occurred was 18 I come to the Lord when I was 16, but really, 17 in a really mighty way like I'd been raised in the church but just did not take my faith seriously and it was when I met a certain family. Actually, this, this girl Christina. She was a part of helping me come to the Lord, but I met this family there it is on fire for the Lord and I am so thankful for meeting them but some of the things it that I picked up during this time of kind of coming to the Lord was heavy and the what what could maybe be called the faith healing movement. A word of faith movement. So my guys were like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagan people those nature again I'm I'm so thankful for that season because I learned to allow the Holy Spirit room in my life to move and to listen to him learn the spiritual gifts and things of that of that nature, but certainly for me coming up to the age of 18 when I had that accident. Everyone was supposed get healed all the time and if we weren't. We had a deficiency in faith of some sort, and so now suddenly I'm the one that needs the healing and and what you did well you go at the things that you know to do to get the healing Anza got a big quote in Scriptures and listen to the teachings and all the things to grow your faith so that you can have the healing occur and I will say I immediately began crying out to the Lord for this and it was from a genuine place. It was a general in place of need and there saw family that would repressed into the Lord and him. He pressed back and was very faithful. We were sincere and I saw all some healing take place, or at least things become easier in the area of my health and and journey there then then they might should of been otherwise. Then there were times it was like wow this is really really difficult and I don't seem to be getting healing a recovery in this part of my journey right now. What's going on, but for the most part, like definitely God just it was just like he was there with me physically, even even when my body was, not cooperating very well during the recovery portion yeah I mean it didn't matter fact that second Corinthians 12 verse seven it says unless I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart for me.
He said to me, my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
We don't know exactly what that was.
Some people say was Paul's eyesight's people that would whatever but you know he clearly prayed he clearly had faith right mean that he in this guy had seen a lot, but it didn't happen for sure and in fact the Lord said no and and so there is a response that that those within the faith healing community would given that basically God was telling Paul know my grace is sufficient for you to get this torn out but I just don't think we can honestly read that without having someone tell us that beforehand and exit come to that conclusion. I think God was saying, I am going to allow you a such a thing of suffering for the sake of your growth and your humility because of the level of revelation that I'm giving to you all and so you know it it could've been his trials he could have been as persecutions. It could have been an actual health thing. We don't know. Like you said, but it was certainly moment where God gave through Satan gave him a thorn to buffet him for purpose and it had up that had a purpose in and in so you actually said that you seen that you use may have been able to connect with people because of the situation that you're in that you may not have connected with otherwise. Is that right yeah for sure. So for those relisting long story short, it's going to be 10 years since my injury this coming August, 9 1/2 years right now and I'm still in a wheelchair and because of that we can talk more about made my faith journey and stuff like that but big because I am in a wheelchair. There are people that I have been able to connect with that I otherwise would not end until just just so you know those who suffer and have been through things when you just come up to them and everything's been hunky-dory in your whole life and you're walking in the blessing you just they're not going to receive from your connect with you as if someone would who's been through something and so you just need to be aware of that and that doesn't mean that you're not as effective in ministry. If you have been through something. This is not a mean to some degree that is the truth that there is an effectiveness in ministry.
When you been through something hard. I mean even the second Corinthians starts that way we we go through things that are difficult nor the to be able can comfort others. But it is not just let you have to go through something to be in ministry, but you have to go through something.
For some people to be able to connect with you. I'll say it that way and for sure their people then I've been with people administered to people that I couldn't have in the way that I did. If I wasn't in a wheelchair. When I came to him.
So yeah. Matter fact and in so that's once I want to give the other side as well.
Your side is its Matthew chapter 8 verse five through 13 and it says when Jesus had entered into Capernaum. The centurion came to him asking for help, Lord. He said my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly. Jesus said to him. Shall I come and heal him. The centurion replied. Lord I do not deserve to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed for myself of a man under authority with soldiers under me. I tell this one go when he goes and that when company comes I say to my servant, do this, and he does it when Jesus heard that he was amazed and said to those following him.
Truly I tell you I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
I say to you that many will come from the East and the West and will take their places at the feast with Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then Jesus said to the centurion go, let it be done to you just as you believed it would. And his servant was healed. At that moment. And so I actually had a dream a while back.
It was about having faith in so is every person who we ever pray for are they always healed every time no II actually went to a meeting with people who were believed just like her, everybody should be healed, believed, healed all the time into these people actually went into a nursing home into a place where they were somebody was dying and they said this person will live were to pray for them in the end to live in those both of those people die and it's like you I like to see you try to talk your way out about okay so that's what but the other side is this I believe if we have more faith if we have more faith. I believe many many more people will be healed and I've seen it in my own life and I've seen it in other people's eyes were just talking about her friend and that she had skin cancer on her nose for two years and she said every day. She said I pray in Jesus name that this will be gone. She said I curse this cancer and she said she saw nothing, nothing, nothing she says after two years she said that cancer was gone.
Our friend Angela Pierce. We were just talking about the real estate agent out of Youngsville, North Carolina. She went to bed one night and she she was a smoker for 30 years and she was woken up by voice and it's at home to take this from and she started coughing violently for the next couple minutes.
She had a pack of cigarettes next day and she never even craved another another cigarette in her life and she heard the voice that night, saying I'm giving you a new set of lungs. So what happens I was and I was in the Hawaii with my mother one time and I had gotten a severe allergy or something. I had it terrible allergic reaction. The closest cost. The closest ambulance was probably hospital was 45 minutes away and I just cried out three times. Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus, and immediately it went away so I definitely think there is something like we say Hebrews 11 about having faith. So how do you come to find that happy medium good questions owed to begin with limited essay.
Don't anyone hear me say that I don't believe in healing or a cessation this or anything of that nature. I pray for people to be healed often pray for myself on the part of a Monday night men's group were quite often will gather someone in the middle. Put them in what we call the hot seat and everybody comes around Lee's hands and and praise over them and and quite often we seem we seeing God move and do things so I am in no way, one that does not believe in healing so just get that on the table. What I am though.
What I will say is that we have to understand that we are living in a time in history prior to the second coming of Jesus and in which the world is not perfect yet. The garden reality has not been us reestablished. A lot of people will say that you will know when Jesus died on the cross that he completely broke the curse and he is ushered and what what the Bible calls the HD, and were living in completely the kingdom now, and if that's the truth, then logically everybody should be healed and because of that, because you know because Jesus is ushered in that full restoration now then, if someone's not being healed has to do with a deficiency of faith and I just want to say I want to actually reframe the Bible for you and say that the Bible actually splits history and two parts and we would say yeah before the cross and after the cross, will actually I would say while the cross is essential, super important. Don't want to diminish it in any way the Bible actually splits history into two parts around the second coming of Christ, called in the Old Testament, called the day of the Lord. The New Testament called the day of the Lord the day of Christ, the day of God, or sometimes just the day and everything prior to the day, the day of the Lord. We are going to be in this tension where we see God move me moved in the Old Testament we see God move we see God heal, but we're not in the perfect world and so there's going to be times where God decides to shield or not heal, but when Jesus comes back there's not going to be that this is anymore there's going to be everyone's going to be restored so I just stood to distill down the differences is that I don't believe were and what the Bible calls the age to come up hold up versus you can look at that, the age to come.
References like Ephesians 121, Paul talks about not only in this age but also in the age Tecumseh first century Jew would've understood history is broken into those realities and work were moving forward to that point but prior to that point were just when I can see everyone healed.
So where does faith come in.
Then I would say that there is just basically there's times when God has decided not to kill someone and he has the wisdom to be able to do that.
But then there's times where yes there was indeed a lack of faith in a situation and so II think we have both of those going on in the in the present time, but I think we see things more destructive than not when we began teaching that everyone is supposed to be healed now. No matter what. Just I've seen more destruction that I haven't and and I'll be real. I there's been events held in my area around the topic of healing where everybody comes to get healed and I'm usually at this events like forum like I'm not trying to deal necessarily but just like supporting the people, but I get phone calls afterwards of people who are broken even prominent figures in our community for broken who are confused and talking through like here's here's really what's going on in God is a healer and is good. We have to be in a and live in this tension of persevering with our thorn until the age to come in since were talking about having faith Hebrews 11 yeah good so Hebrews 11 is a classic place that talks about faith.
One of the things that I know I've said in that video like you referenced is we can have the faith for healing awesome like that. That's an established thing in the Scriptures. It talks about faith for healing within there's the faith. Also, for when you don't get healed, or faith for perseverance.
So we go to Hebrews chapter 11 on a red I think is probably the new King James Anna read in the NASB, and it just translates as words a little bit differently and it says says this so Hebrews chapter 11 verse one is really probably the most up important place says. Now faith is so about see what faith is now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. And so right there. What were overseeing is receiving an inner conviction about a thing that's going to happen in the future, and so went faith and hope go together hand-in-hand so we can really define what hope is hope for the bot in the Bible isn't just I will. I sure hope so. Hope is like a concrete assurance similar to what we called faith, but hope is like it's a picture of a future reality that we desired to have come to come to pass. So, in the biblical world of the future reality that is just fundamental for the first century Jew and for all Christians.
Is this return of Jesus to restore the earth back to the way it was in the garden of Eden, so the garden reality back again.
I will not probably be a garden but is going to be a perfect earth when he comes back and said that's the that's the hope. And that's the picture and for me the hope would look different than for you.
For me, the hope looks like all of that that I just explain and I get a restored body you can restore body to but I get legs when I didn't and so and I just lose weight.
Yeah so so the hope is a picture of a future reality that I desired to come to pass. Now faith in the mix.
Then says and I wholeheartedly believe that that future reality is going to come to pass and so right here we can see that faith is the assurance of things hoped for is the conviction of things not seen. And so the rest of Hebrews chapter 11, so I verse two it says buy it by faith. The men of old or the elders they gained approval to basically these people of old. They believed so much in a future reality that they would do crazy things like of a wait we can redo it. And there's people who would go and fight battles and win wars within.
There's also people who would give their lives and get sawn in half know why he had faith about a future thing with which would be the flood and so these people are approved by God because they're there looking into a into the future and saying God is said something is coming.
We believe it wholeheartedly. So much so that I would change my life around the fact that that's gonna happen and that's faith and they are approved by God.
And so we have faith in Jesus. It's faith in what he did just the cross. What is the cross. The cross gains us access into the day when he comes and so I faith in the cross unto his coming and that future picture. I am so convinced of it that my life is changed in the present, live the ways of Jesus, love well and I want to persevere through my thorn through my wheelchair because I know he's common and and my hope is set that I'm in a be restored when he comes back, a man we talked about the slope of the last time, but we think he's come in sooner than later as I write yeah you know and and I know a lot of people said that over the years, but I actually think to believe that and hope for that is a right thing. So God has always wanted us wanted his people to live in expectation and even Jesus. He didn't tell them when his come back partly because when he was on the earth. He didn't know. He says that but also like we get a picture when we read the apostles writings we get a picture of what people actually live live like you were who had seen Jesus and were expecting him to come back in their lifetime. Like if we if we had the writings of the apostles, and they didn't believe he was coming back soon then really the writings were discount like well I mean that's good. But you guys liked on news can be 2000 years from know they believed wholeheartedly.
I am living in the time of Jesus's return and I was honoring to God. I believe and so even now where overseeing the world become like it is worsening. Crazy stuff happened and we can say you know actually when I look out. It does look like coming back, but if were wrong. Praise God that we lived with expectation of because at honoring were living as if none of the standard yeah and it is matter fact. The Bible, Revelation 2220 and says he which testified these things saith Shirley, I come quickly. Amen.
Even so, Lord Jesus, and Cameron order were brought back for another show I check out Cameron Horner ministries.
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