Faith & Healing

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PRCUALife, protecting life through all its stages. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. So this is Mike Zwick with If Not For God with Mike Zwick. And once again, we've actually got Cameron Horner back. Super excited to have this guy back. We just did another show about the book of Revelation, Revelation 13.

In this show, we're going to be talking a little bit about faith. Once again, at Cameron Horner at 18 years old, Cameron Horner experienced a life-changing injury while on family vacation. I believe it was at White Lake?

Yep, that's correct. At White Lake, and when he dove into shallow water, breaking his neck and leaving him with a spinal cord injury and paralyzed from the chest down, God graciously saved Cameron from dying by giving him more air than normal while underwater so that his friend could find him in time. After this injury, Cameron went to Atlanta, Georgia to begin a four-month stay at a rehabilitation hospital where he underwent intense therapy to learn to live life again. The Lord had prepared Cameron and his family to go through this intense journey and was with them every step of the way. Since this injury, Cameron has traveled to various places, including overseas, to share his story of God's grace.

He teaches at various locations and leads small groups, and when not speaking, Cameron operates through his nonprofit ministry, Cameron Horner Ministries. And today, we're actually going to be doing a show on healing and a show on faith. And so to open it up, I'm going to be looking at Hebrews chapter 11. It says, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report and testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts. And through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death and was not found because God had taken him, for before he was taken he had this testimony that he pleased God.

But without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. And Cameron, as I read those words from the word of God, one of the things that I'm reminded of is the absolute miracle of how you're still here. A matter of fact, I think when your diving accident took place, it was 2011, is that right?

Yeah, that's correct. At White Lake. And what happened was it was the day before you had actually had a, there was a lady who was with you, she was a lifeguard and you guys practiced something, is that right?

Yeah, it's as if we practiced. So I was on family vacation, best friend was there with us and she was a former lifeguard. Her name is Christina, so I can use her name. But she was a former lifeguard and we were swimming the day before my injury occurred. And while we were out there my little niece, Courtney, was there with us and Courtney asked my friend Christina, hey Christina, how do you save someone when they're drowning? So to demonstrate I pretended to drown and Christina pretended to save me. And I was actually in the exact position when I was pretending to drown that I would be the very next day. And so it was fresh on her mind when she actually needed it when I was actually drowning the next day. Wow, and then so when you were drowning the next day, and this is what you can see and you can check it out, it's on Facebook, he was on the 700 Club, you can also go to YouTube and check out the video as well, but you said you were drowning, I guess you couldn't move, you were paralyzed at the time and you said you couldn't breathe and all of a sudden you could tell that you were running out of air but then something happened.

Yeah, correct. So to paint the picture, I'm you know an athletic 18 year old that just doesn't, I'm not afraid of water and so I had been diving through the whole kind of time that we were there and this was day two. But on day two of our trip, Christina and I decided let's go swimming and the docks at White Lake are fairly long so if anybody has been there they'll know what I'm talking about and I decided I'm going to do a just a really good dive and so I take off down to the end of the of the dock and I jump into the air, spread my arms and when I hit the water because I was running so fast I went straight to the bottom and we could talk about kind of all that occurred in that moment but because of the way that I hit the water I went straight to the bottom, my head collided with the bottom and my shoulders came up and my neck just shattered and so I had immediate spinal cord injury which causes paralysis. So if you see someone paralyzed it's most likely that they've had a spinal cord injury. When you have a spinal cord injury you can't move and when you're paralyzed you can't move and some people can't move more than others but for me in that moment I was completely paralyzed. I could almost just barely move my arms but very little but I was under the water holding my breath and holding it for quite some time. For me it was quite some time because I wasn't a swimmer and I was definitely not in that moment prepared to take you know be under the water for that long and so I'm holding my breath holding my breath and my lungs are are just on fire and I knew under the water at some point my body is going to reflexively make me take more air and when you know when you're under the water that doesn't work and that's why people drowned but that feeling came that feeling came and then suddenly that reflex occurred where my body was like we have to breathe now but I can't explain it and I try not to make more of it than it is but it was very impactful it was just as if I had more air so I went to gulp and I didn't take in water and just there was just more air there and it was like I don't know if it was just in my throat or how that worked but I remember being so impressed afterwards I told people about it like I was going to take in I was going to gasp but I just was able to hold on a little bit longer and then another probably 15 seconds passed and my lifeguard friend who we practiced the day before with just appeared right beside me and she'll say the same thing it was like I appeared right at her feet and she reached down supported my head pulled me up and began pulling me back to shore wow and so it was a miracle of miracles that that that you made it and then for sure you know it's interesting and this is what I kind of wanted to get into a little bit was that after that this huge miracle you thought that you were just going to get out of the wheelchair and be completely healed yeah so there's so much backstory to all of this but long story short I had I had come to the Lord while this injury occurred when I was 18 I had come to the Lord when I was 16 but really 17 in a really mighty way like I had been raised in the church but just did not take my faith seriously and it was when I met a certain family actually this this girl Christina she was a part of helping me come to the Lord but I met this family they were just on fire for the Lord and I am so thankful for meeting them but some of the things that that I picked up during this time of kind of coming to the Lord was heavy and the what what could maybe be called the faith healing movement a word of faith movement so my guys were like Kenneth Copeland Kenneth Hagan people of those nature and again I'm I'm so thankful for that season because I learned to allow the Holy Spirit room in my life to move and to listen to him and I learned the spiritual gifts and things of that of that nature but certainly for me coming up to the age of 18 when I had that accident everyone was supposed to get healed all the time and if we weren't we had a deficiency in faith of some sort and so now suddenly I'm the one that needs the healing and and what do you do well you go at the things that you know to do to get the healing and so you got to be quoting scriptures and listen to teachings and all these things to grow your faith so that you can have the the healing occur and I will say I immediately began crying out to the Lord for this and it was from a genuine place it was a genuine place of need and the rest of my family did and we pressed into the Lord and he pressed back and was very faithful because we were sincere and I saw some healing take place or at least things become easier in the area of of my health and journey there then then they might should have been otherwise but then there were times that was like wow this is really really difficult and I don't seem to be getting healing or recovery in this part of my journey right now what's going on but for the most part like definitely God just it was just like he was there with me physically even even when my body was not cooperating very well during the recovery portion yeah I mean a matter of fact it's 2 Corinthians 12 verse 7 it says unless I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of revelations a thorn in the flesh was given to me a messenger of Satan to buffet me lest I be exalted above measure concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart for me and he said to me my grace is sufficient for you for my strength is made perfect in weakness therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities that the power of Christ may rest upon me that we don't know exactly what that was some people say it was Paul's eyesight some people said whatever but you know he clearly prayed he clearly had faith right I mean that he in this guy had seen a lot but it didn't happen yeah for sure and in fact the Lord said no and and so there is a response that that those within the the faith healing community would give and that basically God was telling Paul no my grace is sufficient for you to get this thorn out but I just don't think we can honestly read that without having someone tell us that beforehand and actually come to that conclusion I think God was saying I am going to allow you a thing of suffering for the sake of your growth and your humility because of the level of revelation that I'm giving to you Paul and so you know it could have been his trials it could have been his persecutions it could have been an actual health thing we don't know like you said but it was certainly a moment where God gave through Satan gave him a a thorn to buffet him for a purpose and it had a it had a purpose you know yeah and so you've actually said that you've seen that you you may have been able to connect with people because of the situation that you're in that you may not have connected with otherwise is that right yeah for sure so for those who are listening long story short it's gonna be 10 years since my injury this coming August so I'm at nine and a half years right now and I'm still in a wheelchair and because of that and we can talk more about maybe my faith journey and stuff like that but because I am in a wheelchair there are people that I have been able to connect with that I otherwise would not and and so just just so you know those who suffer and have been through things when you just come up to them and everything's been hunky-dory in your whole life and you're walking in the blessing you just they're not going to receive from you or connect with you as if someone would who's been through something and so you just need to be aware of that and that doesn't mean that you're not as effective in ministry if you haven't been through something that's not what I'm I mean to some degree that is the truth there there is an effectiveness in ministry when you've been through something hard I mean even the second Corinthians starts that way we we go through things that are difficult in order to be able to comfort others but it it's not just like you have to go through something to be in ministry but you have to go through something for some people to be able to connect with you I'll say it that way and for sure there are people then I've been with people I've ministered to people that I couldn't have in the way that I did if I wasn't in a wheelchair when I came to them so yeah as a matter of fact and and so that's one side I want to give the other side as well and the other side is it's Matthew chapter 8 verse 5 through 13 and it says when Jesus had entered into Capernaum a centurion came to him asking for help Lord he said my servant lies at home paralyzed suffering terribly Jesus said to him shall I come and heal him the centurion replied Lord I do not deserve to have you come under my roof but just say the word and my servant will be healed for I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me I tell this one go and he goes and that one come and he comes I say to my servant do this and he does it when Jesus heard this he was amazed and said to those following him truly I tell you I have not I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will take their places at the feast with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and Jesus said to the centurion go let it be done to you just as you believed it would and his servant was healed at that moment and so I actually had a dream a while back and it was about having faith and so is every person who we ever pray for are they always healed every time no I mean I actually went to a meeting with people who were believed just like you're talking about everybody should be healed you believe healed all the time and two of these people actually went into a nursing home into a place where they there was somebody who was dying and they said this person will live we're going to pray for them and they're going to live and those both of those people died and it's like you know I I'd like to see you try to talk your way out of that one okay so that's what but the other side is this I believe if we have more faith if we had more faith I believe many many more people will be healed and I've seen it in my own life and I've seen it in other people's lives we were just talking about our friend Annette she had skin cancer on her nose for two years and she said every day she said I pray in Jesus name that this will be gone she said I cursed this cancer and she said she saw nothing nothing nothing she says after two years she said that cancer was gone our friend Angela Pierce who we were just talking about the real estate agent out of Youngsville North Carolina she went to bed one night and she she was a smoker for 30 years and she was woken up by a voice and it said I'm going to take this from you and she started coughing violently for the next couple of minutes she had a pack of cigarettes the next day and she never even craved another another cigarette in her life and she heard the voice that night saying I'm giving you a new set of lungs so it happens I was in I was in uh Hawaii with my mother one time and I had gotten a severe allergy or something and I had a terrible allergic reaction the closest host the closest ambulance was probably a hospital was 45 minutes away and I just cried out three times help me Jesus help me Jesus help me Jesus and immediately it went away so I definitely think there is something like when we say Hebrews 11 about having faith so how do you kind of find that happy medium yeah good question so to begin with let me just say don't anyone hear me say that I don't believe in healing or I'm a cessationist or anything of that nature I pray for people to be healed often pray for myself I'm a part of a Monday night men's group where quite often we'll gather someone in the middle we'll put them in what we call the hot seat and everybody comes around lays hands and and prays over them and quite often we've seen we've seen God move and do things so I am in no way one that does not believe in healing so just to get that on the table what I am though what I will say is that we have to understand that we're living in a time in history prior to the second coming of Jesus in in which the world is not perfect yet the garden reality has not been re-established a lot of people will say that we'll know when Jesus died on the cross that he completely broke the curse and he has ushered in what what the bible calls the age to come and we're living in completely the kingdom now and if that's the truth then logically everybody should be healed and because of that because you know because Jesus has ushered in that full restoration now then if someone's not being healed it has to do with a deficiency of faith and I just want to say I want to actually reframe the bible for you and say that the bible actually splits history into two parts and we would say yeah before the cross and after the cross well actually I would say while the cross is essential super important I don't want to diminish it in any way the bible actually splits history into two parts around the second coming of Christ called in the old testament called the day of the lord in the new testament called the day of the lord the day of Christ the day of God or sometimes just the day and everything prior to the day the day of the lord we are going to be in this tension where we see God move I mean he moved in the old testament we see God move we see God heal but we're not in the perfect world yet and so there's going to be times where God decides to heal or not heal but when Jesus comes back there's not going to be that decision anymore there's going to be everyone's going to be restored so I just to distill down the differences is that I don't believe we're in what the bible calls the age to come and I pulled up a verse is you can look at that the age to come references like Ephesians 1 21 Paul talks about not only in this age but also in the age to come so a first century Jew would have understood history has broken into those realities and we're moving forward to that point but prior to that point we're just we're not going to see everyone healed so where does faith come in then I would say that there is just basically there's times when God has decided not to heal someone and he has the wisdom to be able to do that but then there's times where yes there was indeed a lack of faith in a situation and so I think we have both of those going on in the in the present time but I think we see things more destructive than not when we begin teaching that everyone is supposed to be healed now no matter what it just I've seen more destruction than I haven't and and I'll be real I there's been events held in my area around the topic of healing where everybody comes to get healed and I'm usually at those events like forum like I'm not trying to get healed necessarily but just like supporting the people but I get phone calls afterwards of people who are broken even prominent figures in our community who are broken who are confused and I talk them through like here's here's really what's going on and God is a healer and he's good but we have to be in and live in this tension of persevering with our thorn until the age to come and since we're talking about having faith back to Hebrews 11 yeah good so Hebrews 11 is a classic place that talks about faith one of the things that I I know I've said in that video like you referenced is we can have the faith for healing awesome like that that's an established thing in the scriptures that talks about faith for healing but then there's the faith also for when you don't get healed or faith for perseverance so when we go to Hebrews chapter 11 I know you read I think it was probably the New King James yeah I'm going to read in the NASB and it just translates those words a little bit differently and it says it says this so Hebrews chapter 11 verse 1 is really probably the most important place says now faith is so we're about to see what faith is now faith is the assurance of things hoped for the conviction of things not seen and so right there what we're what we're seeing is we're seeing an inner conviction about a thing that's going to happen in the future and so when faith and hope go together hand in hand so we could really define what hope is hope for the bot in the bible isn't just like well I sure hope so hope is like a a concrete assurance similar to what we've called faith but hope is like it's a picture of a future reality that we desire to to have come to come to pass so in the biblical world the the future reality that is just fundamental for the first century Jew and for all Christians is this return of Jesus to restore the earth back to the way it was in the Garden of Eden so the garden reality back again now we're not probably going to be in a garden but it's going to be it's going to be a perfect earth when he comes back and so that's the that's the hope and that's the picture and for me the hope would look different than for you for me the hope looks like all of that that I just explained and I get a restored body you get a restored body too but I get legs when I didn't and so and I just lose some weight yeah so so the hope is a picture of a future reality that I desired to come to pass now faith in the mix then says and I wholeheartedly believe that that future reality is going to come to pass and so right here we can see that faith is the assurance of things hoped for it's the conviction of things not seen and so the rest of Hebrews chapter 11 so like verse 2 it says by it by faith the men of old or the elders they gained approval and so basically these people of old they believed so much in a future reality that they would do crazy things like I mean we can read through it and there's people who would go and fight battles and win wars but then there's also people who would give their lives and get sawn in half Noah he had faith about a future thing which would be the flood and so these people are approved by God because they're they're looking into a into the future and saying God has said something is coming we believe it wholeheartedly so much so that I would change my life around the fact that that's going to happen and that's faith and they are approved by God and so when we have faith in Jesus it's faith in what he did yes the cross but what is the cross the cross gains us access into into the day when he comes and so I have faith in the cross unto his coming and that future picture I am so convinced of it that my life has changed in the present like I'm going to live the ways of Jesus I'm going to love well and I'm going to persevere through my thorn through my wheelchair because I know he's coming and and my hope is set that I'm going to be restored when he comes back amen and we talked about this a little bit the last time but we think he's coming sooner than later is that right yeah you know and I know a lot of people have said that over the years but I actually think to believe that and hope for that is a right thing so God has always wanted us wanted his people to live in expectation you know even Jesus he didn't tell him when he's coming back partly because when he was on the earth he didn't know he says that but also like we get a picture when we read the apostles writings we get a picture of what people actually live live like who were who had seen Jesus and were expecting him to come back in their lifetime like if we if we had the writings of the apostles and they didn't believe he was coming back soon then really the writings were just kind of like well I mean that's good but you guys like y'all knew it was going to be 2,000 years no they believed wholeheartedly I am living in the time of Jesus's return and that was honoring to God I believe and so even now we're seeing the world become like it is we're seeing crazy stuff happen and we can say you know actually when I look out it does look like Jesus is coming back but if we're wrong praise God that we lived with expectation of his coming because that's honoring to him we're living as if we're going to be standing before him soon yeah and as a matter of fact the very end of the bible revelation 22 20 it says he which testifieth these things say it's surely I come quickly amen even so come Lord Jesus and Cameron Horner we're glad to have you back for another show and you can check out Cameron Horner ministries thank you so much Cameron and If Not for God imagine having peace of mind in these turbulent times peace of mind may be the most valuable of all assets feeling secure in your financial future is worth its weight in gold and in emotion Liberty Bankers Insurance Group can help provide you with that most precious life-affirming sense of security we work hard to create smart and innovative life health and financial plans that help ensure your family of not just the stability that you deserve but the future potential you desire to create a generational legacy of peace of 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