This is the Truth Network. Welcome to If Not Forgot. Stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. All right, this is If Not For God with Mike Zwick.
I am with Pastor Scott Grimm from the Lamb's Chapel. And Pastor Scott, it's good to have you here, but we were talking about this a little bit this morning. And there was a time where, if you were a Christian in the United States, for the most part, you were going to support Israel. If you were a Christian, you knew that God had his blessings on the Jewish people and God had his blessings on Israel. But a lot of that has changed, especially in the past few years.
What do you think is going on, Pastor Scott? I've watched that all unfold, and yes, I came up in that tradition as well. That, yeah, you just supported Israel. And what that's really born out of is just a particular kind of way to interpret the Bible. And it it's a crazy concept, but you read the words and the words mean what they say.
That's the perspective. And so that's that's the kind of uh hermeneutic that I grew up with was that God means what He says. And but a lot of the people that are in the public eye that oppose Israel or say that we don't need to support Israel, if they come from a religious background that has embraced a replacement view of Israel, then they're they're not going to agree. And so when you kind of get outside evangelical circles, you encounter that a little bit more. But I think it does inform some of the perspectives out there.
And then you've got people that are not religious, don't give a hoot about the Bible at all. And of course, they've got their own reasons for opposing Israel. But you've got an amalgam of all that going on, I think. Yeah, you do. And I think what happened, and it's happened a lot the last couple of years, but really it's kind of brought them out with what's happened recently over in Iran.
Have you seen that? Oh, totally. I mean, leading up to the strikes, you saw a lot of chatter online. You saw a lot of the podcasters bringing this up in recent interviews. I know Tucker Carlson being one of the Most familiar faces.
He interviewed Ted Cruz months ago, maybe it was last year at some point, where he tried to kind of perform a gotcha scenario with him and corner him and try to get him to say, you know, that the Bible dictates this and then challenge him on that. Most recently, he interviewed Mike Huckabee and tried to do the same thing with Mike Huckabee. Where you run into a buzzsaw with Mike Huckabee is he is an ordained Baptist minister and knows his Bible very, very well. Yeah, yeah.
So it didn't go as well with Tucker on that. I didn't. I watched the whole interview and I thought the ambassador did a phenomenal job with it and was very measured and very calm because when you stand on truth and you know what God's word says, you don't get flustered. You know, you just say, hey, look, this is what it says. And people can react to it and they can be shocked by it.
But God's word is God's word. Yeah, God's word is God's word. And I think what people will use, people who believe in replacement theology, or some of them call it supersessionism, the most common that I hear nowadays is fulfillment theology.
Some of the Bible verses that they'll actually use to support that would be in the book of Galatians. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, understood. But I think that. That interpretation is born out of you had centuries and centuries and centuries where there were not a large contingency, there was not a large contingency of Jews in the land.
And so, if you go back to Genesis 12 and several passages throughout Genesis, God reiterates this promise that He made to Abram, later Abraham. And it is a promise to not just Abraham, but to all of his descendants. And it involves land. and nationhood and blessing. And so we are mandated to support the descendants of Abraham because in that same covenant he says, I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you.
Well, how else should we interpret that? Yeah. And what does that look like? And I think that's really the crux of it today: what does it mean to bless? First of all, who is Israel?
What does it mean to bless Israel? And then subsequently, what does it mean to curse Israel? And what can we expect as a result of that? And I think that the who is Israel part is where it got muddled because for so many years you didn't see any identifiable nation. of Israel.
But that doesn't mean just because you don't see it doesn't mean that God's covenant has fallen through. One thing I know about my God is He never breaks His word. He always keeps His promises.
So if He promised Abraham, I'm going to make you a mighty nation, He's going to deliver on that promise. But naive people for years were looking at Israel and they're saying, I don't see a nation. I don't see a people there. They've been scattered to the wind. And we know that started in 70 AD with the Romans, and they came in and they destroyed the city of Jerusalem, and the Jews were dispersed.
And yeah, there was not an identifiable nation, but then something amazing happened in the 40s after World War II, is that they came back to that land. And there is a nation in that land. But most of your reformed theology, most of your replacement theology was already constructed and formed in that period of time where they didn't see people in that land. And now we do see a people in that land, we do see a nation in that land, but centuries of reformed theology, centuries of replacement theology can get very rigid, and people kind of double down on that. And so now I think that that informs a lot of the perspectives that you have.
Now, do you think that Israel getting its land back in 1948, do you think that was a fulfillment or a partial fulfillment of prophecy? I do. I mean, can a nation be born in a day is what the scripture talks about. And it literally was. You know, and so I do think that there was a coming back to the land.
You see, the prophets talk about a return to the land from their exile, but then there's another return. to the land that is beyond that return. And I personally believe that that's what we saw in the 40s with the birth of the nation of Israel. A lot of people will say: well, you know, modern Israel, biblical Israel, not the same. Um and uh it's either because they think the church is Israel, which I I seriously take issue with that.
Because all throughout the New Testament there is a distinction. between Israel and the church. And even in the book of Revelation, you see the church prominently spoken of right into chapter 4, and then you don't see them. But you see a lot of Israel. And so during that tribulation period, you see a lot of that.
But at the end, here's the church again. And so there's a clear distinction. between those two peoples. and it's because there is a distinct covenant that God made with the descendants of Abraham that does not extend to us except for that final component, which says that through you Through your seed, there will be a blessing for all the families of the earth.
Well, the name of that blessing is Jesus Christ. But we don't get in on the nation blessing of Israel. We don't get in on the land blessing of Israel. I'm pretty grateful that we get in on the Messiah. And he being our Savior, that is the ultimate blessing right there.
But God is not done with Israel. He's not done with Israel. Uh scripture talks about how not all Israel is Israel. And they like to throw that. The replacement crowd likes to say, well, you know, not all Israel is Israel.
And they like to say, you know, Jew and Gentile in one.
Well, yes, that's the church. But when it's talking about not all Israel is Israel, What that means, my interpretation of that is that there are members of that people, members of the descendants of Abraham. who are not gonna benefit from the promise. But it's because they have not had faith. This is an unconditional promise.
All that's required of Abraham and his descendants is faith. Faith is never described as a work in Scripture. If it were, you and I would be saved by faith. Yeah. But we're not saved by faith.
So it's not a quid pro quo, this covenant that God made with the descendants of Abraham. It is an unconditional promise. He said, I will do this. You don't need to do anything. When he ratified that covenant with Abraham, he cut an animal in half, and he had just.
Abraham just sits back and watch, and God passed between the two halves of that animal. That's how the ancient world performed covenants. And it's a visual thing. It's as if the one walking between the two halves is saying, if I don't keep my end of this covenant, let it be done to me as was done to this animal. And that's what God was saying.
That's a powerful statement from God. I'm going to keep my end, no matter what you do, doesn't matter what you do. I'm going to keep my end.
Now, if you don't have faith, if you don't believe that I'm going to keep my part of this. then you won't benefit. But that's not me breaking my covenant. That's you not believing. You know what?
Mike, if I If I told you tomorrow morning I'm going to show up right here And I have a big bag of money. Yeah. Okay, and I'm gonna give it to you. I'd be here.
Okay, that would be faith on your part. And you would then benefit. But you know what? If you didn't have faith that I was gonna show up. And then you didn't show up?
then you wouldn't benefit from the promise. You know, but does that mean that I broke my covenant? No, I was here. I had the money. It was waiting for you.
But you didn't believe.
So not all Israel is of Israel. There are some who have not embraced by faith. But you know what else Scripture says? It says, In in that day that all Israel will be saved.
Now, that's a promise. What does that mean? Does that mean all Israel of every generation throughout human history? No, it means all descendants of Abraham that are alive on the earth, when the Messiah comes back. Scripture prophesies they will see him and they will look upon him.
They will see the one whom they have pierced and they will mourn him as one mourns an only son. And they will turn to their Messiah en masse. Every Jew on the earth in that day. When he comes back to establish his kingdom, they will recognize him for who he is. and all Israel will be saved.
Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. And I wanted to share something as well. Because I want to tell people, and I want to make sure that I'm clear on this. When we say that we support Israel, when we say that we support the Jewish people and all of that, there is something out there, and we've discussed some of the people that I've recently interviewed: Dr. Michael Brown, Joel Richardson.
They say there is something out there called dual covenant theology. Are you familiar with that? A little bit. A little bit. What that means is that, okay, so Christians are saved by believing in Christ.
Right. But the Jewish people are saved by He said, I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And so I don't believe that people are saved just by virtue of their bloodline. Right.
Okay. Our obligation to Israel has nothing to do with a belief that they are somehow saved by being Jewish. Mm-hmm. But God has made a promise to them.
Now we don't know which of them uh will be here when the Messiah returns. But that doesn't mean that his covenant is broken or that we aren't obligated to hold up the Gentile mandate, which is to bless Israel and thus be blessed. Everyone who comes against Israel historically experiences cursing. That's right. It's just true.
I saw a t-shirt when I went to Israel. I looked on the back of the t-shirt and it listed all of the people groups and the nations that have come against them throughout history. I mean, you had the Philistines and the Egyptians and the Amalekites and the Assyrians and the Babylonians and the Romans and Nazi Germany. And they were all gone. It kind of gave their date of.
of demise on the back of this shirt. And then it said Iran. And then there were three question marks. And so at the bottom, it said, you know, we're special people who answer to the highest authority, so be nice. That's right.
Be nice. Yeah. And I believe it's funny that you say that. There was a guy who posted something online about how China, when they were trying to help Iran, something didn't work. Isn't that?
And I wrote, I commented, that was God. Yeah. That was God.
Now, yes, we're not stupid. We, you know, whether we, you know, we do evangelism. We don't just sit around and say, Lord, oh, no, no, no. I pray that this person's going to get saved. No, we walk across the street and we tell that person the good news about Jesus.
And we tell Jews that too. We don't just withhold the gospel because, well, that's God's people. No, you can respect the fact that God made a covenant to a people, but you still want them to be born again. You still want them to know Christ now. You don't know that they're going to have the opportunity.
They may not be alive when the Lord comes back and we see that all Israel will be saved. No, they need to know the truth, just like every human being on earth needs to know the truth about who Jesus is and what He did for them. But we do know this. We know that in Scripture, I believe that at present there is a general blindness. on the Jewish people.
That's prophesied in the Old Testament. And it's fulfilled after the death of Christ, that you see a spiritual stupor that has descended in a collective way. Which is not to say that there aren't Jews who have come to faith in Jesus. In fact, there's a whole organization called Jews for Jesus, which is beautiful, David Brickner. We support that at the Lamb's Chapel, that ministry.
So we know that there are Jews out there that have embraced the true Messiah, but in general, there is a blindness. But you know what? That ought to break our heart. Yeah. That shouldn't cause us to want to oppose them.
It shouldn't cause us to view them antagonistically. I mean, there are people y you and I were talking about y your dad who grew up Jewish. People that were maybe Catholic or of another Christian faith, they would come up and say, You guys killed Jesus.
Now, that's the ABCs of evangelism, right there. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, how's that? Let's try that and see how that works out for you. That's you know, literally what not to do in evangelism.
You know, my Lord. wept over Jerusalem. Yeah. Paul said, I would take their place in hell. Yeah.
That's serious. I mean, w we we need to weep for the Jewish people. We need to be broken for the Jewish people. We need to love the Jewish people. We need to want them to know the gospel.
But we also need to take seriously God's word when He says I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you.
Okay, it doesn't mean now here's what that doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything that the modern state of Israel. Um Does politically. It doesn't mean you have to be a big fan of Benjamin Deton Yahoo. I actually think he's a great leader.
Yeah, you know, you don't have to support everything politically. You know, what I don't agree with this, Rillon, is I believe they have taxpayer-funded abortions over there. Obviously, I oppose that.
So I think they talked about that. Huckabee and Tucker talked about that a little bit. And then he he said, I don't support that. How can you say that?
So, you don't have to agree with everything that they say. But there's, what does it mean to bless them? It means you need to seek their well-being. You need to want them to be safe. And the Bible says to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
And to pray for peace, you need to seek the peace for Israel. And I believe that would extend to coming to their aid if they're under attack or under threat. Be an ally. uh to this nation.
Some people say, well, they're not a theocracy anymore like they were in the Bible. A modern Israel is not biblical Israel because it's not a religious nation, it's a secular nation.
Well, you want to know something? In Jeremiah's day, they were sacrificing their infant children to Molech.
So they they haven't always been obedient. In fact, They've hardly ever been an obedient people collectively. The nation of Israel, God disciplines that nation. Repeatedly throughout your Bible. But he's never broken his covenant.
Yeah. He he disciplines them just as a father disciplines his children. And let me just say this too. It's not like there's no abortions in the United States either. Oh, that is absolutely right.
Yeah. No, yeah, it's true. I mean, we we we have a checkered pass, don't we? And yet we sing God Bless America, right? Um but I I believe that Israel I though imperfect, God has a purpose for them.
And yeah, war is terrible. And you might have an issue with us going into Iran for different reasons. Um But I believe that to be an ally to Israel is a biblical reason to do it. That's not going to satisfy every American. But I do believe, from a biblical standpoint, that is a valid reason to do what we've done.
Another valid reason is just the mandate that God gives. uh sovereign nations in a general sense. You know? uh that that they may uh they may use military force to uh preserve order. to restrain evil.
and to protect their citizens. And our involvement in Iran, I think you can make the case that the restraint of evil. is a a motivation there. That regime is an evil regime. They've killed thirty six thousand of their own people, or something like that?
Did you see the reactions, the different reactions to what happened in Iran? The people of Iran versus the left in the world. Unbelievable. Yeah. It's like how tone-deaf.
are the left when there's weeping for joy uh that the Ayatollah was gone. Um You know, I mean that they thought this never day this day would never come. To see that, and then to see the demonstrations and the histrionics over here about. You know, what have we done? How dare we go in there?
I mean, that's a sovereign nation, and yada, yada, yada. The notion that. we have no interests. As a nation in that regime being taken out. Uh They hate us as much if not more.
Than they do Israel. Israel's the little Satan. We're the great Satan. Yeah. Yeah.
According to the Ayatollah. Yeah. They hate America, and they have for 47 years. Yeah. Um, you know, and we we've lost lives to Iran.
Yeah. Via their proxies. They're the number one sponsor of terror worldwide. A Hezbollah would not exist without Iran. And they've killed our Marines.
And uh this has happened for decades. Yeah. And most recently, there's strong evidence that they were behind an assassination attempt on our president. And so, you know, even if you put all that on the shelf, however, the restraint of evil is at least a biblical. Justification for war.
The preservation of order is a biblical justification for war. And yeah, I think to come to Israel's aid, you can add that to that as well. But I also think. All of that aside, America does have interest in this. This is transformative as far as how we function.
in the Middle East. And it's a very strategic move. And those kind of get into your geopolitical and foreign policy questions. That I'm certainly not an expert on all of that, but just from a biblical standpoint and what God mandates for nations. I think we've met some criteria that are important.
I agree. And I did say the left. But I also want to say it's not just the left anymore. No, you're right. We we mentioned Tucker Carlson, we mentioned Candice.
Yeah. And that you even mentioned Matt Walsh, is that right? Yeah, and I love Matt Walsh and I love Michael Knowles. I think that they have a lot of good things to say. But again, this kind of brings us back to your kind of theological underpinnings.
You've got a variety of people that agree on very little. but they they can they can come together in opposition. Uh to any sort of Kind of throwing in with Israel. Yeah. And I would submit that for the people on the right that we've just mentioned, for a lot of them, It's their religious background that has informed some things consciously or unconsciously.
that if there is a replacement theology, that is that is ingrained in them somewhere. I think they are inclined to say you know, we need not have anything to do with Israel at all. Yeah, and there was a post that I just made the other day, and it was a picture of President Obama, and it said, Obama is surprised when Trump drops bombs on Iran instead of pallets of cash. This sounds like a Babylon B headline to me. Yeah.
But, anyways, so there, I mean, so if you're in the United States and people say, well, I hear all of this, they said, but, you know, but I'm just a regular guy working a regular job. What can I do to support Israel? Pray.
Okay. Pray for the peace of Israel. Pray, and I would say the number one thing you pray for. Listen. Military peace, economic peace.
They're always fleeting because we live in a fallen world. Um they need to know A peace of the soul. and that can only be provided by the Prince of Peace.
So they need to know their Messiah.
So you need to pray that eyes are opened among the Jewish people. And uh and we're always, you know, as Christians uh There is a crown awaiting the one who loves His appearing those who have loved his appearing meaning we need to pray for the Lord's return And that's if the Lord would come back today, today, then that would set in motion. uh the events that will bring Israel to her knees and to her Messiah. I really believe that. Yeah.
And so getting Jamal to close the door, Jamal. Jamal's a big help with the local conservative movement. But, you know, one of the things, and we were going to talk about this a little bit more, but I wanted to get this in before the end because you mentioned abortion over in Israel and there's abortion in the United States. My dad, my dad may have become a Christian on his deathbed, but he wanted my mom to get an abortion. And my mom said no.
So that's the reason that I'm here. And you talked about that you're over a Christian school, but I'm pro-life because I believe that every life has meaning. And you're pro-life as well. Is that right? Oh, staunchly pro-life.
Our family has a long history supporting pro-life causes. My wife worked for a pro-life/slash abstinence education foundation up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota when we lived there. My mother worked for that organization as well all through college. I went to Liberty University. Had a group that traveled and did music, and we sang at the Concerned Women for America with Beverly LaHaye and the March for Life, and things like that, the American Life League.
So, yeah, I believe in it with all my heart.
So, why are you pro-life? I'm pro-life because I believe that life is precious, human life is precious, and I believe that God knew us. Jeremiah says, you knew me as I was being knit together in my mother's womb. Actually, long before that would be, we often hear the phrase, life begins at conception.
Well, Jeremiah indicates that God values life even prior to conception. Like, he goes back as far as one could possibly go. And so God values human life because He made it. He created it. And uh it is it is just tossed aside uh in the interest of convenience.
Today. Vanity. opportunity I saw an actress on an award show a few years ago and she won an award for out of some movie or whatever. She got up there. And you know how they always thank some a lot of actors will thank God.
She thanked her abortion doctor. Jeez. for giving her the opportunity to have a career. Yeah. I think that is the very definition of what the proverbs says when it says, the fool flaunts his folly.
Yeah. What a fool And we live in a world of fools who don't value that which God says is precious. And so that's why I'm pro-life is because God is pro-life. God is 100% pro-life. And you actually said you went to go visit Sarah this week, or you're going to.
I don't know if that's this week. I think that's sometime this month. Yeah, there's Arms of Grace. Yeah, I've interviewed her before. I have not met her yet.
I'm looking forward to meeting her and she actually had two abortions. Yeah, I've heard so I want to tell people before we go is that if you've had an abortion, it's not the unpardonable sin. It is absolutely true. God can forgive you for that. No, absolutely.
He can restore the years that the locusts have taken. Scripture says, and he can heal and he can restore.
So many beautiful stories of grace. The lady that founded the pro-life organization that our family was involved with, same story. She'd had an abortion, and God redeemed her. And uh he's using her to fight for the unborn. She's saved countless babies.
And so it and that's a ministry, that's a Christian ministry. And I believe the Christian organizations are the most effective pro-life organizations because they offer real hope. That's right. You know? Not just saving the life of a child, but introducing people to Jesus.
Yeah, and you mentioned Molech before. You said back in the day they would sacrifice their children to Molech or whatever. Yeah. To me, having an abortion is not very different than that. Isn't it interesting that it's Jeremiah who talks about, you knew me before I was born, you knew me before conception, even in the same book.
He details. this idolatry where people offer up their children to a false god. People are still offering up their children to false gods. On the altar of fame, on the altar of opportunity, on the altar of money, on the altar of sex, you know, we're going to sacrifice human life. to have what we want.
It's all about what we want. That's that's what sin is. It is idolatry. It's it's sacrificing on the altar of self. And uh there's no more ugly presentation of that than abortion, it's hideous.
It is. God hates it. He does. And so we got a pro-life, pro-Israel pastor, and he's right here in your home state of North Carolina. The name of the church is the Lamb's Chapel.
If people want to get involved in the Lamb's Chapel or if they want to learn more about it or want to visit it, what's the best way to get involved? Our website is tlcalive.com. We have services on Sunday morning, 9 o'clock, 11 o'clock. We're on Alamance Road in Burlington. Um you can catch us on Facebook, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
We're all over the place. Just search the Lamb's Chapel and you'll see my ugly mug. And you're preaching tonight? I'm preaching tonight. Yeah, we have a Wednesday night service.
So you can come at 5:30. We'll feed you for what they're charging. $5, $6, $7. I don't know. Inflation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a good meal there in the gym, and then you can come on in. We have about 500 people that come out on Wednesdays. And right now I'm doing a series called Hot Potatoes. And the subtitle is The Bible Speaks to Controversial Subjects.
Which is kind of what we're talking about today. And I will be there tonight. The show's got to end, Scott. All right. Thank you, buddy.
Appreciate it. Thank you. If Not for God. All right, for my YouTube channel. If not for God with mighty's wick Just like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell.
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