Welcome to If Not Forgot. Stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. Hey guys, this is If Not For God with Mike Zwick, and I've got an exciting show today. There used to be a song that we would sing, and it was Grace, Grace.
God's grace. And I was telling Manuel and Daniel Pitt Daniel Beryl here a little bit before that my uncle was actually a Presbyterian minister. And whenever we would get together, we would always talk about grace. We talk about a lot of things on this show, and we talk about the goodness of God, and we talk about. You know, that we need to stand up for truth and that we need to repent of our sins and to do evangelism.
But one of the things that I think, as a Christian, that it always starts with is the grace of God. Because when we really understand the grace of God, for me, it makes it easier for me to do evangelism. When I realize how much God has saved me from, then I want to share that good news with other people. But I heard a story about a guy who had died and he was on his way to heaven and he stood before St. Peter.
And St. Peter said, Why should I let you into heaven? And the man said, Well, he said, I never cheated on my taxes. And St. Peter said, Okay, we have a score from zero to 100.
He said, You get five points. And St. Peter said, What else? He said, Well, I never cheated on my wife. He said, That's another two points.
The guy said, Two points. He said, Uh, well, what else have you done? He said, Um, Well, that's about it. He said, you know what? He said, the only way I'm getting into heaven is by the grace of God.
And St. Peter said, well, welcome on in. That's how everybody else gets in as well. But the Bible says in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 through 9, what does it say, guys? For by grace ye have been saved through faith, and then not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not by works.
So no one may boast.
So no one may boast.
And, man, well, you're a Presbyterian. And you're actually in seminary right now, is that right? That is correct.
So you really understand the grace of God. What does God's grace mean to you? God's grace, the idea between grace and mercy is usually sometimes confused. Mercy is withholding justice from a deserving party, but grace is departing favor to an undeserving party. And the radical difference behind that is, is grace, someone that deserves condemnation for something they did wrong.
The most scandalous thing about grace is it's no longer holding that morally accountable to somebody. For example, let's say you stole something. The idea of mercy is you not being put in jail, but grace is reconciliation with the person with whom you have stolen from. That's how radical the idea of grace is. But the grace of God is that you've been accepted into His family, His kingdom, despite every sin you ever committed, made it because He loved you and chose you.
Amen. How about you, Daniel? Yeah, I would say that by definition, grace is unmerited favor. And one of the things that we see throughout Scripture is that. Both in the Old Testament and New Testament, it's not by the works that we do, but God's favor upon his people.
And whether it be in the Old Testament regarding the sacrificial system or in the New Testament regarding Christ as our final sacrifice, ultimately in the Old Testament, the sacrificial system wasn't a means in and of itself that saved the person. It was a visible example or a typology in a way of that which was the final sacrifice, that being Christ. And I would say that we see. Throughout time, everybody has a different view of. what they mean by grace and so many people that we talk to In our evangelism, in our discipleship, see that grace is a little bit of what God does and a little bit of what they do.
And ultimately, throughout the narrative of scripture, it's fully the work of God in someone's life and not by our own merit or by our own working up enough zeal to get us into heaven. It's truly by his mercy that we have that peace. Absolutely. And one of the stories is my favorite story about grace that I can think of. It's Charles Spurgeon used to tell this.
He said that there was a very noble king back in the 1500s or so. And what this king did is he saw this peasant who came up to him and he said, Okay, I'll grant you you can speak in front of me. What do you have to say? And the peasant said, He said, Although I'm very poor, he said, In my garden, I grew a carrot. And this carrot was absolutely huge.
And he said, King, he said, I couldn't even keep this carrot for myself. He said, this carrot, you need to have this. And I said, this is only fit for a king. And so the king said, He was so touched in his heart, And he said, you know what? Because you've done this good thing for me and you've got so little yourself, there's 60 acres of land that's right near you.
I'm going to give you that land. And so one of the king's noblemen thought to himself, he said, Well, if this is what the king will do for a carrot, I wonder what he'll do for a real gift. And so the next day the the the noble one came up to the king and he said, You're not going to believe this. Look what I've got. I gave you the best horse that I've got, and this gift is for you.
And the king said to the nobleman, He said, The carrot that that peasant gave me, he gave that to me. He said, But that horse that you gave me, you gave that to yourself. And so the truth is, even though We may do some good works, even though we may do some good things. The Bible says, Jesus says that many of us do them for the wrong reasons. And so, when I talk to people about the goodness of God, or I ask them, What makes you think you're going to get into heaven?
Or on a scale of 0 to 100, how sure are you that you will get into heaven? And they may say 70% or 90%. But almost every time, and Christians who go to church say this, I say, well, why do you think you would get into heaven?
Well, I'm not a bad person. Or, well, I've done a lot of good works. Manuel, I don't think those people really understand the grace of God. Not at all. If you think it's by works, that's literally every single other religion and philosophy that teaches the same exact thing.
And that's the greatest thing that sets Christianity completely apart from every other religion. If you think you're a good person, you've done enough good things, if you've checked every single box in the religious category, every single box in the good works category, in Christianity, that's not how you're accepted. In fact, in Christianity, it teaches that every single one of your good works, if it's not done in faith, it is actually sinful. It's you're heaping even more sin upon yourself. God Himself is so holy that He cannot look at anything injust and evil.
He hates evil that much. And that should first give us some comfort that God's going to stop all evil, but that puts God's justice right back at us. And no matter how many good works we do, the Bible calls them filthy rags. We can scrub and scrub and scrub, and you just have filthy rags for all you work. That you've done, and that's why you need Jesus Himself to take that pain and all of it away to be fully wiped away, and therefore you're completely accepted by God because of His work for you.
Yeah, I think it's 2 Corinthians 5:21. It says that God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. And one of the stories that I often think of when I think about God's grace is that there was a guy named George Wilson, and he was around during the time that Andrew Jackson was president. And this guy, I think he had killed somebody, he had done some terrible things, and he was going to get the death penalty. They were going to hang him.
And finally, some friends of Andrew Jackson who knew this guy. got into Andrew Jackson's ear and Andrew Jackson came down and he gave this guy a pardon. He said, whatever you've done, you're free. You can go, you can leave, you can do whatever you want. I have pardoned you, you do not have to be killed.
George Wilson did something that was very strange and it was very funny. George Wilson refused the pardon. He said, I don't want your pardon. He said, I want to die for what I've done. And it actually went to the Supreme Court because there was an argument about it.
They said, you know, should this guy, does he have to take the pardon because the president said so, or can he refuse the pardon? And the Supreme Court said, this guy can, in fact, refuse the pardon. That the president has given him. And George Wilson ended up dying because he refused the pardon. And we look at that.
Many people who are non-Christians look at that and say, why would that guy do this, Daniel, if he had a free pardon to where he didn't die? Let me tell you something, if you're not a Christian. If you haven't received the free grace of Jesus Christ of salvation, you've done something that's a lot worse than what George Wilson did back in the 1800s. Would you agree, Daniel? Yeah, I would agree.
I mean, I'm not actually not, that's the first time I'm hearing that account and that story, but I think it. Pivotally shows the importance and the gravity, the weight of the matter of our sin to a holy God, as Manuel was sharing. And also Um Every time that We sin, even as believers, it puts a A barrier in our ability to discern the truth and discern the voice of God. It's an open door for Satan and the spiritual realm to have more influence in our lives, whether you're a believer or unbeliever. Every time, even for believers, every time we don't Feel the weight of the beauty of the grace of God, and we allow the, as it says in scripture, not to take the grace of God in vain.
I think about how many times my own self has. Yeah. in my past and even now at times like not Not taking the weight of the beauty of the grace of God. And one of the things like Manuel was sharing about other faiths out there, other worldviews. I remember in many instances talking to different people about grace and whether it's Islam or Buddhism or other religions, they all have a works-based idea of salvation.
And Just one example. Taking the passage in Ephesians, the Book of Mormon actually twists that passage, and it says, in the Book of Mormon. It says, by grace you have been saved after all you can do. That's a direct quote. And the weight of that.
For every individual who would hold to that, it is very serious because it's basically saying, do all you can, and then if. The God that they believe in so chooses, he may or may not, but if he so chooses, he will extend a little bit of mercy on you to hopefully balance out the scales. But when you speak to a Mormon, when you speak to a Muslim, or others, they have no assurance of salvation. It's a, I hope so, but not I know so. And so that's one of the things I would say about the importance and the beauty and the weight, because there is a, it's not just a, Huh uh A sad weight.
There's a rejoicing, a beautiful weight in the glory. I think it was C.S. Lewis, I think it was, that says he wrote a book called The Weight of Glory. And I think that's an important thing to think about in regards to God's mercy and God's grace. Yeah, and I just heard about C.S.
Lewis. I was actually listening to J.D. Greer on the way over here, and that's why we're doing the show. But what he said was that there were all of these different scholars who had come around the table, and they had written the differences between the different religions, and they saw C.S. Lewis come in, and they called him Jack.
And he came in and they said, see, Jack, he said, look, you know, there's all these different religions. What's the difference between your religion and all of the other religions out there? And he said very simply, it's grace. It's grace. You know, in all of the other religions of the world, It's do this, do that, do the other.
You do enough good, and you don't do enough bad, and maybe, maybe you'll get into heaven. With Jesus Christ, it's D-O-N-E. It's done. The work on the cross is finished, it's already done. And by putting our faith and our trust in Him.
That's how we receive forgiveness. One of the things that's sad to me, though, is because, like I said, I go out and I interview people and I talk to people on the streets who are Christians. They kind of have the same belief. As a lot of these other religions, when I ask them why would you go to heaven, and they say, Well, I hope I can get it because I'm doing enough good. To me, I don't know if we haven't done a good enough job explaining grace, or I don't know what it is.
But I've got some Bible verses for you right here. John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 5:8, But God commendeth His love toward us, and that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 3:23, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death.
But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I understand why people who aren't Christians, manual, may believe that they have to do a certain number of works to get into heaven. But why do you think there's so many Christians out there who believe the same thing? Yeah, the part of this is in the nature of evangelism. When we share the good news of Christ, you want to jump right to the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
But the thing about it is the question we're trying to address is who is man? Who is God? And how can I be right with God? That's how we must begin the conversation. And the thing about it is when people, a lot of Christians in different churches, they don't understand and not been taught what did Jesus theologically accomplish on the cross.
I think about the movie American Gospel. There was this one individual. He's a... But he claimed to be a pastor. And he was talking about how he talked to a bunch of college students and other parents that were in the same room.
And he asked that question, very question, of okay, I want you to explain to your college student. About the death of Jesus, and by what cosmic mechanism does the death of Jesus do anything for you? And no one could answer that question. What did Jesus theologically do on the cross? We could talk about the pain, the suffering, the blood, the life that Jesus lived, but the thing about the cross, it is penal substitutionary atonement.
He paid the penalty, which is the wrath of God against evil. He took that upon himself. Penal substitutionary. He is the substitute. I deserve that wrath.
We deserve that wrath. He took our place. Penal substitutionary atonement. And he satisfied the wrath of God. Because the cross is where God's justice and mercy meet to become grace.
And people have missed that so much. They sometimes want to focus so much on the love of God, they forget that God's just at all. And that's the problem. The cross is supposed to show how God is perfect in everything that He does. He is.
Perfectly just that he will stop all evil, and he does it by him taking all that punishment upon himself. And we trust in this. Why? Because our Savior had power over death. He conquered death itself in resurrection power.
And that is how we know that the substitute, the penal substitutionary atonement that Christ satisfied on the cross, was complete with resurrection power and giving us everlasting life. Yeah, absolutely. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 says, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? And so as Christians, We can have assurance.
There's some Christians out there who really, Daniel, they don't know where they go, where they're going when they die. Because when I talk to somebody and I ask them, if you're a Christian, how sure are you that you're going to heaven when you die? And they say anywhere between a one and a 99, I don't think they get it. Yeah, no, I would totally agree. I mean, one of the things that I think is important, just like Manuel was talking about.
If we go on either side of the ditch, focusing only on the wrath of God and this overbearing, almost God in the sky with a big sledgehammer false concept, which is a false narrative of God, that that side is one ditch, or just the progressive concept of that God is accepting of everything and everyone, that God just focusing on God's love, we miss who the true God is, the God of scripture. And one of the things that some of the listeners on this program may or may not be familiar with is within historic Christianity, there's a doctrine that it's been a blessing to me to really think about on the idea of grace and God's mercy, but also his holiness, is what's known as the doctrine of divine simplicity. God is not made up of parts. It's not God's justice is one part and God's holiness or God's glory is in another. It's that God's justice and God's mercy is synonymous with one another.
That God, when you take out love, you don't take out God. That God is not made up of parts. That His essence and His attributes are the same. His essence are His attributes and His attributes, His essence. And so understanding that.
God Himself is in Christ. He is the incarnate one, the one made, the One in flesh, and that when God came down to earth, that He was the one that was the one that, as Manuel talked about in the term penal substitutionary atonement, he is the one that took the penalty and the wrath for our sins. And that is the basis of how we understand mercy, grace, and salvation. But also what's sometimes referred to as Christus Victor, that Christ rose and came and battled over the enemies of darkness and had victory over death, hell, and the grave.
So we would come from the perspective of saying that the foundation of the work that Christ did would be from a more penal substitutionary atonement understanding as the foundation, but also not negating that he also had victory over the evil works of darkness and the victory to come. And so understanding both of those aspects, I think, are important as we're discipling people and ministering to people in this world, whether outside the church or inside the church, and not limiting one aspect and negating the other. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I thought of when I think about the grace of God is Isaiah chapter 53. And it says, Who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
And in verse 3, it says, He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from him. He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
And here it is: it says, But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was on him, and with his stripes we are healed. And then, one of the things that I think of. Is that when it comes to the grace of God? If we think, as Christians, if we think that there's somehow some way that we can get in on our own merit or by our own good works, to me, it's a slap in the face of Jesus Christ.
What do you think? Absolutely. The idea that somehow that I am the arbiter of my destiny, that is completely a pagan idea. It's either some, because even the idea of secularism and atheism don't have a context of no eternal destiny. Nothing really matters.
But if I say that I can navigate my destiny, then I have become the God. I have become the one who is my own sovereign. And that is a very dangerous thought. I do not have any control over that. I am completely a creator, a creature to my creator.
And my creator has given me his predestined destiny for his own glory. And he's made me to be what? To be. Created in his image to do his will. And my works and all the things that I do, I can give no credit to him because my will wants to be self-satisfied.
My will wants to sin. My will wants to do what it wants to do and it needs redemption. My reasoning, my thinking, my desires, all of that was fallen. And the grace of God, by the pouring out of God's Spirit, as prophesied in Joel 2, made manifest in Acts 2. It's that spirit that changes my heart.
Yeah, and you're a Calvinist, and so you said at the beginning, how does this relate to Calvinism? Yeah. The grace of God. Yeah. So it's interesting.
We mentioned Calvin, and we'll talk about John Calvin in a moment, but. Martin Luther is considered the, I guess you could say, disciple of faith, because he talked about you're saved by faith alone. But the five solas is that we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to scripture alone, for the glory of God alone. And even though Luther gets accredited for talking about faith, it's John Calvin that gets accredited for talking about. Grace.
That's the idea that John Calvin, one of the great expositors of the church of Geneva, and he really focused on this idea of grace. What exactly is God doing in reconciling fallen men to himself? And so we could talk about the other things that might come along with that. But the main focus that John Calvin wanted to focus on was how are we made right with God? And how is that grace merited through the work of Jesus?
Not me. And Daniel, one of the things I think with Calvinism, and we're not saying you're a Calvinist or not, just one of the things is that it's not that we chose God, but that God literally chose us. You know, that we don't have the option or we don't wake up one day and say, hey, I think I want to follow Jesus because I'm a great guy or whatever. But it's literally that we were chosen and God pulled us out of the muck and the mire that we were in. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Sure.
Well, one of the things that I think, whether you're on the Calvinist or Arminian side, I think needs to always be important to point out is. It's a process, I think, is important to understand salvation or what's in the older term as the order salutus, the order of salvation, is a process. It's not like just one day someone wakes up and they think, oh, I'm chosen, therefore I am going to be a Christian and I'm good to go. It's God. Drawing himself, drawing us, drawing that individual to himself.
It's God calling that person. It's sometimes referred to as the term, the total inability, but also the divine persuasion, you could say, the drawing of the spirit of the Lord of that person to God. And I would say, whether you're on the Armenian Calvinist discussion there, I would say it's important to think about that. It's not grace is something that's not just immediate. I know it, therefore I'm good to go.
It's something I've experienced, I'll say individually in my own life, that. Was God working in my heart over time, drawing me to Himself? And Christ talks about in the Gospels that the sheep that God has given me, the children that God has given me, that the Father has given me, not one will be lost. And so, however, you want to nuance that in the Calvinist-Arminian discussion, understanding that. When God's mercy is given, that his promises do not return void, and that he is faithful to his promises.
And I would just say that it's important to see that. The process of salvation, the process of someone being Reached, discipled, evangelized to, and coming to the Lord and then walking that faith out in the process of sanctification is a process. It's not a one-time deal, as Mike and I have talked about. It's not, you can just say, oh, I believe in Jesus, and then go about your merry way thinking because I'm changing. Or something to that nature, therefore, that gives me the liberty to sin.
As Mike and I have talked about, the reformers, even Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others like him, like Zwingli and others, would actually be against that same principle that was known as antinomianism or against the law, nomos meaning law. And they would say that's actually unbiblical.
So I think that's what I would say: having that fair balance of saying that. It's the work that God did through Christ in one's life, and it's a process. It's that God drawing that person to Himself. Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of the Calvinist manual would point to not only this, but I would say Romans chapter 9.
Is that right? Yeah, Romans chapter 9 is a very clear one that when God is talking about his people, he's called a people unto himself. In fact, I think it's interesting Romans chapter 9 actually riffs off Exodus, talking about how God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the purposes of him making his power shown. Because I found that always a powerful idea that God wanted to show off the 10 plagues over all creation. And I think it's also important to note if you read the book of Exodus, he was actually fighting demons.
Like God himself was fighting the gods of Egypt. That's what he was doing. He hardened Pharaoh's heart to defeat these demonic powers, which I think that's a side note, but I want to point that out there. But in Denmark chapter 9, it's important that God is calling a family to himself. And we do not choose who our family is.
I do not choose who my father is. Is, but I thank God that my father loves me and cares for me. Amen. And thank you guys for coming on. It's www.crosschange.org.
God bless you.
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Mm-hmm.
