Hi, this is Roy Jones with Man Talk Radio Podcast. Our mission is to break down the walls of race and denomination. Your chosen truth radio broadcast will be starting in just a few seconds. Thank you. This is the Truth Network.
Welcome to If Not Forgot. Stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. Hey, this is Mike Zwick from If Not For God with Mike Zwick. I've got my good friend Jeff Hoover here.
And I've met Jeff several years ago at Wednesday in the Word. But Jeff is a what I call a Bible warrior, which means that he really has studied his Bible. He's gone on mission trips not only in the United States, but he's also gone abroad. And Jeff, you grew up basically going to church, right? Yes.
Yeah, I grew up going to church. And so you've kind of always been in the church. You've never, you know, you've never really fallen away. You've never become an atheist or you've never attacked Christianity or anything like that. You grew up in a good Christian home.
Was your dad a deacon or?
Well, he was a licensed minister, yes. He was a licensed minister, so he did supply pastoring and stuff like this, you know, and then he also did Bible studies and stuff. Did Bible studies as well. But then, when you were, and I'm trying to think of how old you were, but you felt the calling to actually do ministry or missionary work overseas. How old were you when that happened?
Hmm. Probably around, uh Seventeen uh When I uh went to a Christian uh Uh youth camp.
Okay. But you you actually did you go to Bible school or Piedmont? What what did you do?
Well, y yeah, later I went to uh I went to uh well, then it was Piedmont Bible College. And uh uh felt like God wanted me to uh enroll in the uh ba uh bachelor Uh Bachelor's of Theology, uh Missionary Aviation. uh program.
Okay, but you really got to study the Bible a lot, and you really got to know the Bible, and you got to know different positions as well.
So, you know, one person says, Hey, once saved, always saved. Another person says, You can actually lose your salvation. But today, I wanted to talk about what it means to actually endure until the end. And that's from Matthew 24. But I'm actually, Jeff, I'm actually going to start off with James chapter 2.
And it says in verse 16, I'll start there. And it says, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well. The devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O man, O vain man, that faith without works is dead. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only. Likewise, also was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And so, you know, I grew up saying, Hey, all you have to do, Jeff, is say a prayer. All you have to do is believe. And it is important to believe. And even in this chapter right here, in James chapter 2, I think it's in verse 19, it says that you believe that there is one God. He says you do well.
It says the devils believe and also tremble.
So it's not a matter of just believing, but that when you become a Christian, there needs to be a change in your life. Is that right? Yes, uh I mean, you you need to believe, but that belief has to be uh you have to show that you believe you know and uh If you believe. you're going to do things Like you're supposed to. You know, if you believe that Jesus is Lord, And not just saying that Jesus is my Lord.
Then you're going to follow him because that means something. You know, that means that you serve him. and you want to do what he wants you to do. You know? Um.
And uh that's what it's uh That's what it's about. It's not that in a relationship. The thing is that when you Uh you prove your love. By Works by doing something. You know, you don't just say the words, I love you.
You don't just say the words, you know. Yes, those are important. But if you say the words, I love you, and that's not followed by some other ways of showing her. your your love? then she's going to say, Oh, that's just words.
Right. She wants to see that you actually love her by the way that you treat her. And, you know, there's plenty of scripture that I can go to back this up. In Matthew 25, in verse 34, it says, Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom of heaven prepared for you in the foundation of the world. He goes on to say, He said, For I was hungry and ye gave me meat.
I was thirsty and ye gave me drink. I was a stranger and ye took me in, naked and ye clothed me. I was sick and ye visited me in prison. And when I was in prison, you came to me. Then shall the righteous answer, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty and we gave you drink?
And he said, When did we see you a stranger and took you in, or naked and clothed you? Or when we saw you sick or in prison, and we came unto you. And the king will say, That's King Jesus. He said, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me. Then he goes on to say, in the end of Matthew chapter 25, he says, You didn't do those things to me.
You didn't feed me when I was sick. You didn't give me something to drink when I was hungry. You did not visit me in prison. And he says, when did we do this? Or when did we not do this?
And Jesus said, what you did not do unto the least of these my brethren, you didn't do it unto me. And, you know, Hebrews 13, chapter 2, it says, be careful when you entertain strangers because you may be entertaining angels unaware. You know, and so again and again and again, you know, if I say that I'm a bodybuilder, Jeff, if I say that I go every day and I work out and it's really important for me to work out, but you say, well, when do you go to the gym?
Well, I don't do that. But I'm a bodybuilder.
Well, when are you lifting weights? I don't do that, but I'm a bodybuilder. At some point, you're either going to think I'm a liar. Or, I'm insane and I've lost my mind, and I'm seeing things, and I'm hearing things that I'm not really seeing, and I'm not really hearing. And Jesus says the same thing as well.
You know, and people like to point to the verse: it's Romans chapter 10, verse 9. It says, If you believe in your heart and you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you will be saved. But the truth is, is that if you really believe in your heart, then you're going to have a lifestyle change. There is going to be something within you that is going to change. And I think you've actually had this discussion with your pastor about the whole once saved, always saved versus can you lose your salvation, Jeff?
And I think that you and I would both say that it's not like you just wake up one morning and oops, I don't know what happened, my salvation is lost. But no, what it is, is it's a conscious decision to not follow Jesus anymore, to not put him first place in your life, because Jesus demands first place in your life. There's a verse, there's a Bible verse, and You know, there's a man who wants to follow Jesus, and he says, Well, first, let me go bury my father, or first, let me go do this, first, let me go do that. And Jesus said it like this: He said, Whoever puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. This, when we decide to serve Jesus Christ, it is a lifelong commitment.
Jesus put it like this: He said, Whoever follows me must take up his cross daily and come after me, or daily and follow me.
Now, what was the little bit of a difference that you had with your pastor? But I think you guys said that you were both essentially saying the same thing. What were you talking about?
Well, uh when I was talking with my pastor, the thing is that w uh You know, if somebody Can uh can live in sin consistently You know? Any of us can fall. Right. But if somebody can really just Consistently Live in sin. and not be convicted of that Um then the thing is Then He would say If they were saved That they lost their salvation.
They turned away from God and all. Or they walked away. They walked away, yeah.
So that's how he would say it. Where I would say possibly that they never really They never really made a commitment, a true commitment, to. To the Lord. And so we're basically. looking at the same thing.
You know I would say they never made that commitment strong enough. You know? And he would say, Well, they might have made that commitment, but But now they're turning from it. Uh and so um Uh either way They are not saved any more. And They either lost their salvation or they never had it to begin with.
That's right. And I wanted to point in right here: it's 1 John chapter 3. In verse 6, it says, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Now, let me stop right there. It's not talking about if you mess up. It's not talking about, hey, I sinned, or once in a while, I really. What it's talking about is somebody who habitually and continually lives a lifestyle of sin and disobedience to God, really on purpose, I guess you could say. And it goes on to say, little children, let no man deceive you.
He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin, which means continue to sin, is of the devil. For the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.
Jeff, I mean, you know, I think it was Mark Twain one time who said, you know, it's not the things in the Bible that I understand that bother me, that I don't understand that bother me. He said, it's the things in the Bible that I do understand and I just wish that they weren't so. And I think a lot of times, especially throughout Africa or throughout other countries in the world, where they're really followers of Jesus Christ, they realize that if you're a Christian, you're going to act like a Christian. Like I said, you're not perfect or anything like that. But if you're living the same as the world, if your life is indistinguishable from the world, if you're living in habitual sin, whether it's, you know, it can be being stingy, not giving money to the poor, wanting to, you know, being selfish in your lifestyle, you know, part of being a Christian, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
If people look at you and they don't see that stuff, you know, for me, I'd be concerned. How about you? Yes, I mean, the thing is that the answer for both these people. Is that they need Jesus. They need to come to the Lord.
Now, whether you say they need to come back to the Lord or whether they need to come to the Lord for the first time, what does that matter? That really doesn't matter. You're not, you, when you. Draw a line there and make it a big problem, but you don't want to make it a problem in, you want. Both People to come to know Jesus.
That's the thing. And that's the answer for both. No matter what you, how you believe in that way, the answer is that that person needs to come to know Jesus. That person needs to draw closer to Jesus. And they need to repent.
Yes. They need to repent. They need to repent and turn around. That's what repentance means: to turn around and go another direction. The thing is that in Islam, Muslims can actually change in order to get something or to, you know, they can change their religion for a short period of time.
But once a Muslim changes their I mean, says that Jesus is their Lord and has really changed their heart, they will follow in believers' baptism. Yes. A person who has, and I say Muslim because they wouldn't be Muslim then, but the thing is that. Uh If the They were born. A Muslim Then, and they've accepted Jesus as their Lord.
Then they will follow in believers' baptism, and that's when they make the major change. That's because it's a and it's not that baptism is needed in that way for salvation, it's that that baptism. Is a step of obedience to the word of God that when they do that, it becomes solid in their heart. And their lives, and that means that they have repented, they have left their sin behind, and they are trying to now serve Jesus as their Lord. Amen.
Well, here's another one: Hebrews chapter 10, and I'm going to start in verse 23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another. And so much more, and so much the more as ye see the day approaching. Man, I tell you what, Jeff, as I look around, man, I see the day approaching.
I believe Jesus is coming back soon, but I'm going to continue. For if we sin willfully, After that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Man, Jeff, there are some scary verses in the Bible. There's another part where Jesus said, Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not heal the sick?
Did we not raise the dead? And remember what Jesus said. Mm-hmm. What did he say?
Well, he said, uh depart from me. You who work iniquity. You who work iniquity. And in one case, he said, I never knew you. Yeah.
I never knew you. I never knew you. And see, sometimes, Jeff, and I, you know, that you and I both believe in the gifts of the Spirit. We believe in speaking in tongues, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. And all of that stuff is great.
And what it does is it's something that actually points people to Jesus. It shows, okay, somebody got healed, and therefore, okay, I guess Jesus is real because this person was clenched over. They could hardly work. They had arthritis in their back, their side, everywhere else. And now Jesus just healed their back like that.
This God thing must be real. And that's true. But you know, the Bible also says. That the gifts of God are without repentance, which means you can have the gifts. Because as a Christian, if you have faith, as a follower of Jesus Christ, he said, Jesus said in his word, he said, These things that I do, he said, greater things will you do.
So you're able to do that stuff. But if I'm cheating on my wife, cheating on my taxes, if I'm living in a same-sex marriage, if I'm doing all this stuff, if I'm not helping the poor, if I'm not visiting those in prison, and by the way, I'm not saying that you have to do all this stuff. We can't do it all, but we should be doing something. As a Christian, we should be doing something. You know, the Bible says, it says, if anybody comes to you and asks you for a reason for the hope that you have within you, always be willing to give an answer.
Always be willing to give. See, the problem is, Jeff, is that for some people, They don't have an answer. They're going to say, Well, what are you talking about?
Well, what is something that's different about you? The problem is, is that people aren't asking them those questions. What's different about you? Because they're just like the world. And here's one of the saddest things and one of the scariest parts about that passage where I was telling you before, where Jesus said, Depart from me.
Jesus did not say when they said, Didn't we cast out demons? Didn't we heal the sick? Didn't we do that? Jesus doesn't say, No, you didn't do those things. He didn't say, No, I didn't see you do those things.
He doesn't argue with them at all.
So I'm assuming they did those things. But the way that they live their life, you see, Man looks at the outward appearance, Jeff, but God searches the heart. Yeah. You can do. Yeah.
I mean, the thing is that. You know, it's about relationship. And God wants to have a relationship with us. That's why Jesus came. Jesus came to build a relationship back that we lost with Adam.
The thing is that When we walk Our daily life. When we come across anything That We should be asking God to say that what do you, how do you, God, how do you want to touch this person? How do you want to touch this person at this particular time? And God will work through your hands, your feet, your money, your whatever, you know, to Touch that person, and then that opens the door to show them that Jesus is real and that God wants to have a relationship with them, also. And that is what it's all about.
You have that relationship. But we also don't want to be judging people And saying, well, because you're not doing this and you're not doing that. Maybe they have not been taught that. You know, they need to be taught how to walk. That's what we, how to walk.
In that relationship with the Lord because Many people don't know. They know how to do things. But they don't know how to be in relationship. You know, the relationship is just speaking to God throughout the day. He wants to help us throughout the day.
He wants to help other people. He wants to touch people. We are His hands. We are His feet. We are His mouth.
We are. And God wants to touch people. And that's the thing. And. We Have to be careful how we also judge other people.
And try to pray for them and help them. We, as Christians, many times, We want to shoot our wounded people, you know, instead, you know, to kill them, instead of helping them, restoring them and helping them have a better relationship and to try to draw them in. I have found, you know, across seas that many people don't have the lifestyle that we would call Christian. necessarily overseas.
However, These people I've seen People that Would give their lives.
Now we say we would give our lives. I'll just use my own self as an example. I've always said, you know, that I would give my life for the Lord. But these people have had their heads cut off and they did not deny Christ. That's right.
In 2 Peter chapter 2 in verse 20, it says, For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, not just you mess up one day, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. It says, For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb: the dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the so that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
So, if you're a Christian, you're gonna act like a Christian. You're not perfect, you're gonna mess up and all of that. I'm not saying that. But you're going to live a life that is in submission to Jesus Christ. And this is, you know, when I became a Christian, this was one of the scariest verses as well, is Matthew 7, 13 through 14 in the King James.
It says, Enter ye in at the straight gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction. And many there be which go thereat. Because straight is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life. And few there be that find it.
And I've actually gone back and looked at near-death experiences. If you ever look at, there was a guy 23 minutes in hell, Bill Weiss. And I don't know if you've ever heard of that, Jeff, or not, but he said from when he got to meet Jesus, he had his thing, that not only he said, do you have to believe, he said, but you have to repent of your sins. And for me, when I read in the Bible again and again and again, there's two things, really. I mean, there's a lot more in this, but number one, and even Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 and 8.
And nine, it says that we're saved by grace through faith, you know, but then it goes on right in the next verse, verse 10. It says, For we were created for God, for good works. And so, because we're a Christian, we're going to feed the sick, help the poor, we're going to help the homeless person. If we can help somebody out, we're going to help them out. You know, at one point, Jesus said, If some, if anybody asks of you, be willing to give them.
And, like we said before, Jeff, in Hebrews 13:2, when you give to that person who is needy, when you give to that person who is homeless, you never know, you might be entertaining an angel. Yeah, you're helping others, but the thing is that, you know, we also realize that we can't help everybody, but you ask God. And let God tell you what He wants to do for that person. And then So we can we can't help everybody, but we can all help somebody. Right, we can all help somebody.
And the thing is, then we need to use our faith to believe God To Give us what we need because that's what He says in His Word: that He will supply our need according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus.
So when we give others, when we give, we are also at the same time believing God to restore us. We're using our faith. To give and then also to receive.
So the thing is that you're expecting, you know, sometimes we say to people, okay, I'll pray for you that God will touch you, you know? Yeah. And sometimes that might be what God said to you that you can't do anything for that person at that time. But other times God may have said to you to help that person and then, and you didn't. Or God may have said for you to help that person and then you would say, well, I don't have this, but I'm going to give this and believe God for my need to be met.
That's right. And we only have 27 minutes, so there's not a lot that we can share. But I will say this: don't take Jeff's word, don't take my word. Read the word of God. Psalm 119:105 says that thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.
I realized I'm stopping. I'm not going to listen to what everybody else has to say. I'm going to listen to what the Word of God has to say, if not for God. Thanks, Jeff.
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