What is My Suffering Producing?

This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. I am your host, Emily Curtis, and today we're talking about a really important topic.

We're talking about what is my suffering producing.

So often, when we are in the midst of suffering, we feel like it's unrelenting and unproductive.

So, joining me today is one of our shepherds in the valleys, John Cox. And we have put together this group of pastors that know God's word, love God's word, but they know how to apply God's word with compassion. And oftentimes, they know how to apply that because they themselves have been called to several hard trials. And so they can speak with Authority on the topics, but they do so with compassion and with an understanding of God's word.

So, John, thank you for joining me today. Oh, it's a privilege to be here. Thank you so much, Emily. I'm so grateful for your faithfulness to the Lord and all us. I think this is such an important topic because We've all been there.

If you've been through suffering, you've asked yourself: what's the purpose of this, right? Our suffering can have such a wide variety and wide range. And it might be something that in the moment feels. nearly inconvenient or it might be something that's life-shattering.

So when someone asks you, what is my suffering producing? Where do you start that conversation?

Well, I think that's such a critical perspective because. because it really shows what's in the heart. I think that's one of the most important things to realize. Is that like, and why would a good God allow something like this. Because God first needs to show us what's going on inside of us.

And God's not afraid of our fears, of our doubts, of any of those things. That's what He wants to pull out, that's what He wants to strengthen. And so that's where I think it begins with understanding not who I am, but who God is. Like that, that's really what the Lord is doing. He wants us to see these things.

Like he is not sending us things to destroy us. He's actually sending things to build a relationship. with him. And that's where suffering is never just about what we're going through. It's about what God is doing in you.

for you, and then after that, through you. And so that is again, that's where I believe it begins. And ends with Who is the God who loves me? And what is God doing in me? None of it is wasted.

Like, there's not a moment of suffering that is wasted. Jesus navigated through every aspect of suffering that a human can go through, apart from dealing with the collateral damage of our own sin, right? He never did that. But what he knows is every aspect of it. And he went through that so that, again, he can form us into his likeness.

How important do you think the role of our own theology? is to the way that we handle our suffering.

Well, I think that's a fantastic question. Again, I think it begins with a theology of who God is. Not in a deistic structure that I just believe in a God. But the God of the Bible. You know, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

No man can come to the Father but through me. And that is a declaration that leads to hope in life. Like, that's the answer. And so, when we're looking at our suffering, we need to know, like, we're, because there's so many times when we're suffering, we're just filled with confusion. And we don't know why, like that.

Why would you allow this or what's going on? Because we're looking at it on a very horizontal plane. But having a right theology about who God is, but a right theology of who Jesus is. That changes everything. Because Jesus never intended for us to remain in this dusty, crusty ball of earth, right?

Jesus intended to prepare us for something eternal. And that's what he's building in us is something eternal. I was reading an article the other day. And it was an interview of evangelical Christians. And the question was: what's your biblical worldview?

How many of these Christians have a biblical worldview? 10% of these people interviewed, evangelical Christians, said, said, we have a. biblical worldview. We will live according to the word of God. 90%.

We're not basing their life off of scripture. Rather, they would approach church more as a community environment as opposed. to theology. And that's the thing is like theology means life. Theology means protection.

But I think the key is this: even when we look at the resurrection of Christ, looking this last weekend at Easter, the goal of the Bible, the goal of God is not simply to give more information. The goal of it is to give information that leads to transformation. And so that's what God is doing.

So, having a right understanding of the word, of who Christ is, why he came, and what eternity is, is so critical. Going off of what you just said, because I've never heard those statistics before, but it made me think about the fact: like, what? What do you think the role of the church is, specifically pastors, or as we would call you guys within our ministry, shepherds? And I believe the best pastors function as shepherds, actually guiding the flock.

So, what is the role of those shepherds to make sure that the sheep not only understand truth, not only are sitting there in the pews listening to your sermons, but that we actually know how to apply truth? When suffering hits. Yeah, I think that that's I when you're when as a pastor. I think first off you have to ask why am I there? And it's not.

to be opportunistic. It's not a matter of like, oh, I'm at church on Sunday, so you need to hear me. No, we all need to hear the Lord. I mean, I love how Paul Tripps just does it. He just says, you know, Jesus is the head, we're all just body.

Right. And we are to function within that. And that's where it leads into us understanding that people are walking through difficulties and challenges. But we have to understand that we're seeking to get them not somewhere, but to someone. And understanding that we're doing that with them.

Right. And also as a pastor too, it's understanding like, I don't have authority. I don't have the authority as a father. I don't have authority as a dad. I don't have authority as a husband, I mean, or as a pastor.

I am called to steward. the authority. That God is placed. And Jesus used that to shepherd people. Meaning to shepherd them to what?

To guide them to what? To living waters, to life. And so what did Jesus do? He entered into. the suffering with us.

So what does a good shepherd do? We enter into it. It's not just saying, hey, I'm going to counsel you and I'm going to meet you once a week. to go through it.

So I am going to walk with you through it. I'm going to hurt when you hurt. I'm going to cry when you cry. And I am going to rejoice when you rejoice, you know? And so, and so we.

We seek to do it as the great shepherd has revealed to it. But the beauty of it is too: we don't do it in our strength. We don't do it for our glory. We have been given the power of the Spirit to be able to see what only God can do. And so we can't take the authority, but we also can't take the.

The the uh uh the thought that I'm going to Make this happen. Only God can make it happen. Yeah. Only God can make things new. We get to point, we get to just be living, breathing sign posts that point to the one who makes all things new.

John, do you think that it's a greater challenge for pastors that have really big churches? I think, especially in America, that seems to be. People really, these pastors almost put the value and the success of their church on numbers. A lot of pastors do. And yet, I would assume that it's harder to shepherd effectively when you have larger numbers of flocks.

So, how can churches that are larger in number, what kind of things can they put in place to make sure that the sheep are being trained to apply the truth?

So that when the suffering hits, they're prepared, even though they may be a little bit more distanced. the the head pastor may be a little bit more distanced from each individual. Flock. Yeah, I think it begins going back to the theology, it's a right theology of what the purpose of the church is. And that leads into what is God calling us to, and it's to make disciples.

You know, Colossians 1.28. Paul says, which is again, this is in my heart all the time, is we are here to what present every man mature in Christ. That's what we're called to do. And that sounds awesome. And like we get into ministry and we're all fired up and we're like, we're going to take the hill, we're going to build this sucker and it's going to be amazing.

And we're going to write books and have TV shows made about us and action figures. It's like, we get the wrong perspective, right? But then he says this. For this, I toil, struggling with all of his energy as he powerfully works within me. Like, what is Paul saying?

Paul is saying, I'm going to present people mature in Christ, but I need the full power of God within me. He provides the power, he provides everything to me. But you want to know what? It's still hard. Mm-hmm.

It's still difficult. And so we have to understand that. We have to understand the difficulty is real. And there, understand that we ourselves cannot bear that weight of difficulty, nor should we excuse and pretend that it doesn't exist. The biggest, the answer is in discipleship.

I believe that the biggest key Is how are we making disciples? I think the most effective disciple can answer this question: who are you discipling and who's discipling you? And when we're able to answer that, that to me is an effective church. Part of the things like we do here. At Redemption, we train not just our elders, not just our pastors, but we seek to train every single small group leader in an element of how are you to be a shepherd.

So, we train them in ways of biblical counseling.

So, and also how to assess: can they handle the situation, or do they need to get a pastor involved? And so that's where I think that the biggest key isn't just found in what Christ called us to do: to equip the saints for the work of ministry. What does that mean? Equip people to be shepherds. And so constantly training them, constantly going.

Like, I went to seminary and I learned a lot of stuff great, but being in ministry for 20 years, I learned a lot. a lot in that. It's the same thing of people in the church. They're going to grow. And that's where, as a pastor, our aim needs to be pouring into the blessing of the leaders that we have, not just on staff, but the people in the church to equip them to love, to shepherd, and to endure and walk with one another and not just keep that on a professional level.

Yeah, I would encourage those that are listening that aren't pastors as well. If you're just a layman or laywoman in church, Pray for your pastors. I don't think we do that enough. I think that we kind of assume that our pastors have it all together. And that's one of the reasons why I love the story that you wrote of your own testimony, John, when you and your wife, which we're going to talk about after the break, but when you and your wife went through some very difficult trials and you say, you say flat out in your story, I wish I could tell you as a pastor that I had all the answers, that I had it all figured out.

I knew just what to do, but I didn't. And that doesn't mean that you didn't know how to apply God's word. It just means that not everything has an answer right there in the moment. Many times you have to just say, Lord, I don't know. I will surrender.

To you and to your will, but I don't know what this next step is. And so, when we come back from the break, what we're going to talk about is why. We struggle. To allow ourselves to wrestle with God. Why does that seem like such a faux pas thing for us to do?

And can it actually be a good, healthy thing for our spiritual life?

So, join us again in a moment on Hope in the Morning. Do you have a testimony of hope? Perhaps you've walked through depression or addiction. Maybe you were diagnosed with a serious illness or have suffered the life-altering death of a loved one. If you want to encourage others with your testimony and share the light of Jesus, visit hopeinthemorning.org and submit your story.

Your story might be just what someone else needs to hear to find hope in their mourning. If you have a desire to encourage the hurting with the hope of Jesus, we invite you to join our ministry by giving a donation at hopeinthemorning.org. Episodes like the one you're listening to are only made possible by your donations.

Now, if you've lost a loved one, you can donate in their honor. Simply put their name in the memo portion of your donation. And we'll read these names on future episodes of Hope in the Morning. And may you be reminded of the goodness and faithfulness of God as you continue this episode of Hope in the Morning. John thirteen, thirty five says.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Do you know how to best love and serve your hurting brother or sister in Christ? Listen to Hope in the Morning and be equipped to offer the hope of Jesus to every hurting heart. To learn more or to partner with our ministry, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. Welcome back to Hope in the Morning.

I am joined today with John Cox, and he is one of our shepherds in the valleys. And again, we have asked each of these men. We have nine men as ministry pastors with Hope in the Morning. We've asked each of them very intentionally to join this aspect of our ministry because we firmly believe that these nine men are men who know God's word thoroughly. And love God's word and live by it, but they also are humble men, they're men of high character and humble men who have learned to apply God's word through their own various trials.

So, John, one of the things that you and I had talked about, even just in preparing for this episode before, is. For some reason, believers feel like it is wrong to ask God. Why? Why is this going on? Why are you calling me to this suffering?

What is the purpose? Why is there this stigma? That we can't wrestle with God, that we can't take our questions to the Lord and be very honest and transparent about all the different feelings that we're having. Yeah, I think again, what we do is it goes back to what we were talking about earlier: having a right theology of who God is. And we can approach it.

Coldly, right? We can, you know, like in Deuteronomy 29, 29, it says, the secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever. And the point is, this is that God has a will. He has a plan. And he has a secret will, which we don't know.

And that secret will is: I don't know what I'm having for dinner tonight. Like, you know, there's elements that come out. And then there's a revealed will, which is like, God, who do you want me to be?

Sometimes we find ourselves wanting to know what God will unveil tomorrow.

Sometimes we're looking for horizontal answers.

Sometimes we don't understand what that is. But it doesn't mean if we don't know that we cannot wrestle with God. And to know. And I think that wrestling with God is so key because it's not a detour from our faith. It's often the very place where faith becomes real.

And when you look throughout scripture, it doesn't sanitize the struggles of God's people, right? You see Jacob, you know, wrestling with God in Genesis 32. You see Job when he says, he says, though you slay me, still I will praise you. But then he says, but I will argue my case before you. You see Hannah, like crying out to the Lord over and over and over.

And I think that there's this point where it's almost as though we can't go before the Lord real and raw. Like almost as though we just can't bear our hearts before him. If you look at Psalm 88, I mean, Psalm 88 ends in darkness. It says, darkness is my closest friend, right? And you're like, where's the life in that?

The point is: this is like wrestling with God is not only. welcomed, right? It's where faith begins to grow. God allows us to enter into that wrestle. And there's times where in that wrestling, we're saying, God, why?

But this is, and I knew, even I was sharing this with you yesterday. You know, I lost my, we went through the loss of our daughter at the stillbirth. Went through cancer. By God's grace, I'm still here. But then a year ago, I lost my dad to a brain disease that takes eight out of 60 million people.

Like, it's so rare. Yeah. And he's the last, we the last family member, right, we have. My son was sitting in his room. And he's crying, and he's just like, God, why?

Why would you take my papa? Why would you do this? I'll give anything. And I'm standing outside his door, and I'm just crying. And I go in and I comfort him.

And then I go back out, and then he keeps doing it. And I'm sitting there thinking, you're wrestling with God. And he's wrestling with God. Why is it so important to wrestle with God? Why was it that Job, who was considered a righteous man?

Did not fail, even though he could say, Well, look at his prayers. Why is it Psalm 88? You can cry out to the Lord and lay everything down before him. Why is it that we can wrestle, Jacob can wrestle with God and not be put aside, ready? Because you haven't turned your face from him.

Mm-hmm. When you are wrestling with God, you are looking upon God. Mm-hmm. When you are wrestling with God, you have not turned to other things, but rather you're questioning God: why are you doing this? And what God is doing.

might not be beautiful for the temporal. But it's gorgeous. and radiant for the eternal. Hmm. And we can't see it.

And we have to understand that with our finite minds and our finite eyes. That we serve a God who is greater, where I can't understand. Why would he take my daughter's life? I can't understand. those things and I'm not meant to.

But we must go before the law. And even with what we can go before the Lord and argue those things. I even think one of the most important things for us to do. Is this, you know, there was a season where I walked through in my life and I believed, oh my God, I believe that you're sovereign. I believe that you're powerful.

But I'm really struggling to believe. Is that you're good? And that you're wise. dot dot dot but i know i'm wrong Mm-hmm. I know I'm wrong.

And it's like, God, I don't, even the moments where God go before him saying, God, I don't even desire you right now in the way I should, but I know I should. Like, Lord, help my unbelief. And so we need to be so raw and real with God, even in our absence of the desire for him. And to say, God, increase my desire. It's not coming to a cold union.

with a static God. It is being drawn into a living relationship. with a loving God. Where he is not allowing us to walk through things. You know, in our testing, just because he's upset with us, no.

You know, I think even in our testing at times, there's testing and there's discipline. You know, there's testing at which is the challenges that can be poured upon us, and discipline can come upon us where it's the collateral damage of our failure. But you want to know what? God doesn't waste any of it. Yeah.

He doesn't waste a moment of it either way. Because he's drawing us into his character, and that's what we have to pursue. is not the circumstantial Um alleviation. Of a temporal moment. but to know that God is working all things together for good.

Not just now, but for eternity.

Well, when we're rooted in the character of God, as you said, John, at the beginning. It takes, it makes it more like what David did in the Psalms. I recently heard somebody talk about lament in the Psalms, and I couldn't help, and I did not, I didn't. verbalize this, but I couldn't help. thinking in my heart, you only have half of it.

And it's because this person had said, you know, look at David in the Psalms. He just poured out his anger and his, you know, dejectedness before God. And that is part of it. That's part of it. But that's not full circle.

The full, the Psalms and the Psalms of Lament that David did. He Poured out so much sorrow before the Lord. And as you mentioned before, some of that was discipline, right? He lost his son as a result of his sin, but some of it were his circumstances that God brought in to test him. And God, I mean, David did pour all of that out very honestly and vulnerably in the Psalms.

But almost every psalm that he does that, that is a psalm of lament. you see a turning point where he reminds himself. Who God is. And that leads to praise and leads to worship. And That's how we want to encourage one another in humility to respond to suffering.

I mean, it talks about in Ephesians 4:2, it talks about with all humility and gentleness, with patience. bear with one another in love. And we're not always great at that, especially when you're not the one suffering. It's really easy to point the finger and be like, I would never suffer like that. I would never question, you don't know.

God has not called you to that trial in that moment. And so, how would you say, as a pastor and as someone who has lost a baby and you've gone through cancer and you've lost your dad and you've had various trials within churches over the years, how would you say, how can we handle each other's suffering with humility and gentleness and patience? How can we do that? Yeah, no, I I think again, it's understanding, I think, first. Um One and our futility.

We can't do it. of ourselves. Oh, God can. And I think, again, it's our own personal pursuit of God. That enables us to have a heart for those people.

And the right words for those people. And so, for one, it's just faithful pursuing of the Lord in our daily lives, I think, is so.

So key. But also understanding that as we grow, God purposely grows us to use us. God doesn't like to save us to put us in some spiritual curio cabinet, right? Say, look what I did. It's like, no, he's saying, no, I, I.

I saved you. to use you. And to show my glory through you. And so I think it begins with understanding that I can't do this, but he can. And then it's also understanding: well, what do I need to do?

Well, I need to listen. And I need to hear where this person is at. Just let them talk. Let them get through there. and then as you're going through it's like god what do you say to this Dad, what is your...

Your word speak to these things. Because Again, I'm going back to that raw and real place. You know, I look at Lamentations 3. I think a lot of the times we say, you know, your mercies are new every morning. Great is thy faithfulness.

And we're like, okay, well, let's just put it on a, we'll knit it on a pillow, you know, put it on a coffee mug. It's all wonderful. But when that was written. Moments before, he said, hope is dead. Mm-hmm.

Life is gone. The life is gone from my bones. But then he says this: this is a key phrase: but this I call to mind. Your mercies are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness, right?

There's that, what is he doing? He's going back to God's word. He's saying, I'm struggling to believe this right now.

So I need to speak. This is to myself. And if you're one who's watching someone to go through it, one of the reasons why we don't enter is we're afraid to enter. We don't think that we have the ability or the experience to do it. But when we have the Lord, we can say, we can say, no, hope is not dead.

So, what I need to do, I need to call to mind what God's word is speaking, and that is true. You know, God, there's times where God, God will only use us about as deep as we go. And the deeper we go. More God, the more God can use, right? Even in even in churches, so goes the leaders, so goes the church, right?

And so the more we pursue Him, the more God will use us. And I'll tell you what, there is nothing More glorious than watching eyes open with hope when it's just the two of you in a room. And they're able to see that, yes, God is doing something new. I don't, and that my feeling of this moment is not going to dictate truth. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we've got so much more to cover in this episode. If you're listening on the radio, I strongly encourage you to not only listen to our podcast, but go follow us on YouTube as well. Subscribe so that you don't miss an episode because these are so important. We are guaranteed that we will face suffering of many kinds.

So, how do we face it? How do we face it in a way that both encourages others and glorifies God? When we come back on the podcast portion, we're going to talk a little bit about how we can trust that God is working even when we don't feel that growth or change, even when it doesn't seem like our suffering is doing anything but breaking us.

So join us on the podcast or join us on YouTube at Hope in the Morning Backstage for the important conclusion of this episode. Thank you for joining us today on Hope in the Morning.

So, going forward with that, I think people do get discouraged when they don't see.

some sort of immediate connection with how God could possibly be working. In their suffering, you know, it feels pointless. And I think, I think, even to people that have lost a child, like you have, or people that have lost a child to miscarriage. They feel like, what? What's the point?

I've heard many times where parents will express. this feeling of why were we allowed to even Conceive that child or have that child. just for the Lord to take them. And so they feel like their suffering is meaningless in that point because they can't see. The outworkings of the Lord.

What do we say to people that are struggling to trust God because they don't see that immediate growth or how God could be working in it? Yeah. I think first and foremost is you have to, again, going back to what is God's view of that? Yeah. God does not take Delight.

And the death of a child. He does not take the light. And when a person has cancer, I talk to people all the time. One person says to me, I'm so thankful for the cancer because, God, I'm like, dude, you don't need to be thankful for the cancer. Yeah.

Be thankful that God is working in it. And there's moments where we need to understand that God's intention for us was never death. Mm-hmm. was never hurt. That's why he's in the business of redemption.

And so the first thing we have to do is we have to understand, like, God, what are you doing in this and who are you? Because the problem is, is like, you know, we can start. Treating God as though he's kind of like some, you know, he's just upset with us and he's angry with us. And the challenge is that what can happen is we start growing a resentment. And a bitterness to God.

Yeah. Bitterness grows when you interpret your pain without God. Mm-hmm. But hope rises when you see that even in the hardest moments, you're being shaped by his hands. And we have to ask the question, is it worth it?

God, the shaping that you did within me when I'm on the bathroom floor and I'm crying and I don't know what to do because my wife is giving birth to my daughter. that I can see, but I'll never hear.

Well, walk down the aisle, God, what are you doing within that? I need to understand that God's heart breaks for that moment. more than mine even breaks. And that he sent his son Jesus to redeem that moment, and it will not be wasted. And in what way?

Is it just for the reasons? No, it's for the redemption. And God is doing something in me. And sometimes I've even been in a place where I'm like, God, I'd rather have my daughter than the transformation. Yeah.

I would rather have her in my life than this person that you're creating. But The things that we do for him because of those things bring him glory. And I praise the Lord because, you know, my daughter. He's been with the Lord. for over a decade.

Hmm, Dad. Has looked into the eyes of Jesus. I know someone. Who's talked to Jesus? Yeah.

My dad has talked to Jesus. My daughter walks with Jesus. They're in the best place ever. And what God is doing is, He's not holding anything back from us. He's bringing us to something far more glorious.

And He's turning us into His likeness to do it. Because, again, the depth of the pain. Reveals the depth of his glory. And it is worth it. The people that we say, I know Daisy, my wife has shared this with you, but a pastor said to us when we.

Lost our daughter. I said, you know, you don't need to know a reason. He prayed. He says, Lord, I pray that you give him a thousand reasons. She started keeping note.

She's up to 1800. Really? I said, this is what God just done. And so you see, and it's all. Eternal.

Lives changed, hearts mended. Again, God takes us through the crucible of suffering. To do something in and through us that is eternal. There are people, like if you're listening, there are people that you have yet to meet that God will bring to you. There's a divine appointment that He's preparing that person.

to meet you with.

So that when you meet them. They're meeting Christ. They're meaning the words of Christ.

So that the hope that you found in those moments that you would have never known. They can have. Yeah. John, in what unique way can our suffering knit us to the heart of God more intimately than our comfort ever could? Yeah.

You know, it's interesting because I'm drawn back to the fall. I mean, look how good God is. He creates this world. Beautiful. Perfect.

Good. Curtis Adam. Eve, what a wonderful world. You think what? redeeming quality.

comes out of the fall.

So it's so amazing. These are good guys. Not only Did he send his son to redeem man? But on this side of the fault. We get to see another dimension of God that Adam never did before.

We get to understand his grace. is mercy His forgiveness. There is a relational component that God has given to us. He didn't withhold from us after the fall, he gave more to us after the fall. And that more is the relationship.

that that we have. I think that's probably one of the most. challenging things that we can have in our faith. is again we can look at it as i just need to know more about god No, but the question is, do I love him? Is my heart enraptured with the loveliness of who he is?

And listen, I'm a pastor. And I'm a guy. And there are times where I do not love Jesus the way I should love him. There are moments where I'm like, it is not. It's not in the right place.

You know what God does? He lovingly brings me back. And it's that constant wrestle. And I love what Peter says: though you haven't seen him, you love him and you rejoice with the joy inexpressible and full of glory. Like, we can't even begin to explain what this is.

But that is only found in the presence of Christ. And there are moments. That you can only have with Jesus. Mm-hmm. You know, hearing Hearing you express your heart on that is Just a reminder to myself and to those listening of exactly why we picked each of you pastors.

And it's not to your own praise and glory, but it's to who God has created each of you to be. And again, what He's produced in each of you. through your suffering and the fact that that has made you guys Humble. I mean, I've heard you, and I mean, you know, I love you and Daisy. I mean, Daisy is one of my favorite people in all the world.

And One of the things I just love about you guys and the way that That you guys love other people is that there is such a genuine humility. to it. And that is what we need more of that. In the church, we need more of that as believers to one another to not put up these pretenses that we have it all together. And it makes other people who are suffering feel like, what's wrong with me?

Why am I struggling to accept what God is bringing my way? And it doesn't mean that we shake our fist at God because I love what you said. There's a distinction between shaking our fist at God and saying, What do you think you're doing? And turning our eyes upon him, saying, Lord, what are you doing? And it's a heart of humility.

That's the difference. Yeah. One of the things, Emily, with that humility, I think this is so important to note. Is when you look biblically, humility isn't something we do, it's something that's produced. Mm-hmm.

And when you look at Romans 5. How is hu how do we get more people that are humble? Suffering produces endurance. Endurance produces character. It's like the road to humility.

It's a humility before the Lord, like, you are God, and I am not. And that's where we find that rest. Yeah, and the more that's taken from our hands, I've learned. the looser our hands become. the more we're able to raise our hands and worship and say, like Job did.

Naked I came and naked I will return, dust to dust. Understanding that at its truest depth, We own nothing. We are in control of nothing. And if we cling so tightly to these things, We're going to be miserable believers because the Lord is going to have to pry our hands open. And so they're just offering it to him.

Listen, there are times. Where God and His grace, and I don't like him. I'm just being honest, I don't like when He does this. But there are times where God, or I've clung to something, clung to something so tight. God had to break my fingers so he could open my hand.

Hmm. And That is his love. Yeah. And I think I think those of us that have been believers for any length of time We've had moments like that. You know, I've talked a couple times on this about this, but When my husband and I lost our last baby, when we had that miscarriage, and it was after my dad had died.

And, you know, here we had purposed in our heart why, like all the reasons why God would be giving us this baby and He's redeeming the suffering we've had. And we thought we knew it all. We didn't, we didn't know what God was calling us to or why. And I had that moment. I remember getting back in the car with my husband.

We had just been told that although the baby had a heartbeat. It was very likely that this baby would die in the womb, along with the other four that we've had die in the womb. And I remember getting in the car with my husband and just crying and saying, This feels so mean. It feels like God is being so mean. And that was, that was a very honest outpouring of where I felt.

With the Lord, and yet in that moment, and again, it's so important. It's important who you marry, it's important the friends that you surround yourself, it's important the church that you go to. Because Right in that moment, my husband was like, we have to speak and think on what is true. And we know that that's not true of the character of God. And so whatever he is doing.

is going to produce something good. in us and We name all of our miscarried babies. We ended up naming that baby Kina, which in Hebrew means to lament. And I remember as we're looking through, my husband loves to get the concordance out when we're going to name a baby. I'm thinking, I can just stick to the Psalms.

But anyway, Looking through that, I had told my husband before we found the name, I said it has to have something to do with. With sadness and mourning. And because that's what my soul felt is just this deep lament over this child. Because I thought I knew what the future held, and I was holding so tightly to. If I'm being honest, like what I felt I was owed.

After we had been through a large season of suffering, I felt like, okay, this is the Lord giving us the beauty for the ashes. You know, one of the things that I think is so Beautiful in my heart now is the fact that you know what I see as. the Lord exchanging beauty for our ashes. Is this ministry? Is the ministry of hope in the morning?

And You know, if the Lord had not seen fit to take those things from our hand. he would not have equipped us the way that he has to do this ministry. Not the least of which is that I have four other children. I would not have the time for this ministry right now. Just as you had said, my heart loved each one of those babies.

Mm-hmm. God is good. And God was faithful, and God has intended purposes. But I've learned so much more. Not only through going through that experience, but through the testimony of yours, the testimony of Daisy, the other testimonies that are in our book, Hope in the Morning, that.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. his character does not waver.

So, when we can share testimonies, honestly. About what we've been through, what our wrestling with God looked like in our suffering. It serves as this pillar. You know, when the Israelites would put a rock of remembrance, remembering what God had done in their suffering, that's what these testimonies are. When you guys are willing to come on here and say, This is honestly what I went through.

This is the wrestling that I went through. This is how it challenged my faith. And in some ways, I'm not proud of. But look what God has done. Look who my Savior is.

What a beautiful testimony. we can have with one another and encourage one another. And that's where, that's where, again. I'm so love what you're saying because Our view of God again is so critical. I'll just put it this way: there's so many times when we're suffering, we just see what God's removing.

God is compassionate. He is full of compassion. And God's compassion is not always seen in what he removes, but in what he is determined. to redeem. God is determined.

To use every moment. He's not gonna waste it. yeah determine to turn all measure of suffering into eternal glory Which I think is such a great thing for us to remind each other of when you're in that season of suffering. Do what Romans talks about. Rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn.

You know, one of the poems in the book was written because of your beautiful wife, Daisy, who spoke to me. Words that I will never forget. And she said, sometimes people need you to walk side by side with them.

Sometimes they need you just to sit in the ashes with them and wait until they're ready to get up.

So sometimes we we need to remind one another what our suffering. Is producing, and you know, that's the other side of hope in the morning: is equipping to. believers to more closely mirror Christ. What does that look like? What does it look like to say, you're not alone?

Remember, you're not alone, you're not forsaken. And to remember that God is knitting everything. Together. He has a purpose in everything. And to be willing to just sit there and say, you know what?

This is terrible. I'm so sorry. that you got diagnosed with cancer. This is terrible. Can I sit with you and just.

have a meal with you and pray with you and cry with you. That To enter into somebody's suffering is to be Christ-like. Mm-hmm. and to remind them that it has purpose. is to be Christ-like.

And that's what we want to be. I want to ask you one more question before we have to wrap up here, but I wanted to ask you: what are some of the common wrong conclusions that you think people draw in suffering? You touched on one of them as far as is God punishing me or has God abandoned me? What are some of those common things as a pastor that you see people really struggle within the midst of suffering. Yeah.

Well, I think that You know, one of them is like, if God is for us, who can be against us? You're like, well, God doesn't really seem for me right now. And I think it definitely begins with with not just what is God's character, but what's God's agenda. And it's understanding, like when people come in, it's... There's a confusion about that.

And we can't just come in and be like, well, this is what God wants from you. God's agenda begins with compassion. Mm-hmm. loving them, walking with them. And I think if we come in and we're just kind of like hard-nosed, you know, take two of these verses and call me in the morning.

It's like, it's like, are we walking with them? I also think that, again, we do have to discern. I think this is just the real raw thing, especially living in an age where we live in this victimization mindset. Is this collateral damage of my decision. Or is this a testing from the Lord?

And there's times where people say, I'm being, it's like saying, yeah, I got in a car accident and I was hit, and now I'm struggling. Or I was drinking and driving and I hit a tree. It's like, well, there's a difference between those two things. And We have to take ownership for where we fail. And how does it push us away for those things?

And neither should we push people away from that. God doesn't have a shame culture. And to where we're not bringing those things up. And that's why I think a lot of the times people are just ashamed to bring things up. And to confess, but like, no, man, you're healed, dude.

You're dead to that. Like, you could be, that's not identifying who you are, you're dead to that. Um But I think also on the other side, too, it's. It's it's it's Is understanding the care of who God is, but then it's also understanding the people of God. We need to be people.

That joyfully and willingly enter into one another's hardship. and and and and guide them to The right again, the right thing. A lot of the times, people, we just want to talk. Like, we just get in there and be like, we need to say all these things, and we're going to, you know, AI, you know, tell me how to counsel this situation. Yeah.

Like, okay, great. And But at the end of it, it's like: no, you know, the compassion of the Lord is seeing through you. You don't need to figure things out. If you don't know what to say, don't say anything. If you do know what to say, say it gently.

Yeah. And be patient. We need to exercise patience with one another. You talk about love of my wife. She is the most patient person on the planet with me.

I thank God for her. But as I look at people, it's understanding. God's hearing your prayer now. But he might not be answering it right now. Mm-hmm.

In the way that you think. Right? He's going to answer it. And so, again, I think as we're armed with the Word of God and we know the truth, we need to use the Word of God as a gentle scalpel to pull away the things that are hurting a person. and for them to be able to see that oh man no my god is good my god is compassionate And to not believe the things they tell themselves about God, but what believing and trusting of things of who what God has said.

about himself. Yeah. You know, if you're listening to this right now and you are in a season of suffering, I hope that this has been encouraging to you to realize that God wastes nothing. He will produce something in you, and he will not only do that, but he will also use your suffering down the road in the lives of others. He uses us to take the comfort that we've been given in Christ and comfort others and remind them who our God is.

So, as we close out today, I'm gonna read a poem that I wrote that's called Sweet Suffering. It says this. It says. It is not thine comforts which quickly fade upon which a foundation of character is laid. Each brick of suffering securely lands in its intended place in the builder's hands.

Find strength in the sorrow, for suffering is sweet. when it leads you to fall at the Saviour's feet. Cling not tightly to the gifts you lay claim Offer them freely, find peace in His name. Know the hand of the Lord is kind, He hems you in both before and behind. Find strength in the sorrow, for suffering is sweet when it leads you to surrender at the Savior's feet.

Remember the example of the Lord Jesus Christ as He submitted to the Father and poured out His life. May we count it joy to suffer for his name and never forget that he died for our shame. Amen. Find strength in the sorrow, for suffering is sweet. when we know we'll soon be in glory at the Savior's feet.

John, thank you for joining me today for this very important conversation. My privilege. Thank you, Emily, and may God continue just to bless what you're doing. Love it. Join us next week on Hope in the Morning.

Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting. Equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. To partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved ones' honor, please visit hope in the morning.org. Your donation helps keep these stories of hope on the air and helps tangibly meet the needs of the hurting.