Hi friend, I'm Carl Miller and you've tuned to Grace to You, featuring the Bible teaching of John MacArthur. As you've probably heard, John went to heaven two weeks ago. He was the pastor-teacher of the Grace Community Church in Los Angeles for 56 years, and he was also Grace to You's one and only Bible teacher for that entire time. And it's important to say here that Grace to You will always and exclusively feature John MacArthur's Bible teaching.
Now, if you've only recently discovered John's teaching ministry, and even if you've been following John and Grace to You for many years, we thought you would appreciate hearing an interview that John gave a few years ago. The occasion was John's 50th anniversary at the church, Grace Church in Southern California. In that interview, John talks about how God directed him into pastoral ministry, and he recalls some of the defining moments in his life as a pastor and teacher of God's Word. Moderating the interview is Grace to You's own Phil Johnson.
So follow along now. Here's Phil Johnson with Grace to You's Bible Teacher, John MacArthur. I want to ask you questions about 50 years of ministry and your underlying ministry philosophy and the things that you like and don't like about ministry. And so bring us to Grace Church. How did you get connected with this church?
You were in Southern California all that time. When I was in seminary, I would become the seminary representative in this sense that I would kind of be the model of somebody who graduated from that seminary preaching, and they would send me around to preach, and that would kind of demonstrate what the seminary did.
So I did that for I don't know, two and a half or so years, and I I preach about 35 times a month. And I did that month after month after month after month. And I crammed 10 years of preaching experience into a very brief time in all kinds of settings - churches, everything from junior high to older people to a lot of college campuses, a lot of high school Bible club. That was a big thing back then. But I was very frustrated at the end of that two and a half years.
I just couldn't hear myself say the same thing one more time. It doesn't lend itself to the discipline study that I wanted so desperately. I told them, I just need to go pastor a church. That's what I want to do. Two churches talked to me a little bit and said I was too young.
Didn't have enough experience. I was still in my twenties. But this church, I spoke to, this church had a high school camp, and I went to that high school camp and I spoke, and we had a great time. And so the kids came back, and their pastor had died, second one in a row, two pastors in a row here had died. They had two widows to support.
So the only qualification for the next guy was youth. I met the qualification. You were 29 years old. Yeah, the kids came back from camp and said, Can we get that guy that spoke to us at camp? And so they asked me to come here and speak.
I said, well, okay, I'll do that. And I just stood up and went for an hour and 20 minutes. Kind of legendary for those early people and So afterwards they said to me, Would you teach us like that? every week if you were here. And I said, I would, I would.
And so they invited me back the next week, but the next week they had a huge clock on the back. Wall was so big you couldn't miss it.
So they liked that kind of teaching. They just didn't need that much of it at once. Do you know what the vote was when they said, let's vote on whether to call this man or not? Was it Unanimous? Was it no this no Um I don't know what it was.
It was enough. We recently played. You take what you can get. That's right. I have to say this, we recently played your first sermon at Grace Church.
It was taped that very first Sunday. We played it on Grace TU, and we got quite a lot of feedback. We play it occasionally, and we always get good feedback. But the most common comment is: for somebody who's 29 and never been a pastor before, that is an amazing first sermon. It really is.
It's called How to Play Church. Yeah, I mean, why would a guy do that the first Sunday he's here? It was great. It was Matthew 7. Many will say to you, Lord, Lord.
Then I will say, depart from me, I never knew you. I mean, it was blasting that out the first Sunday here. You know what? It did set the tone for your teaching. But you know there was a reason behind that.
Yeah. Um I had become very aware that churches were filled with unconverted people by traveling around all over the place.
So here's something I've always wondered, and I'll ask you: what else do you remember about that very first Sunday? What stands out in your mind about that? It was raining. It rained. It rained really hard.
We were in the chapel. That was the. It was raining and. I was full of passion and zeal. This was what I had longed for.
Desired, and I knew I was embarking upon the desire of my heart, which was to. week in and week out, sequentially go through the Word of God. That's what I'd always wanted to do. And it wasn't because I wanted to preach it, it was because I wanted to study it so that I would understand it. I think It was hard for me to just read the Bible and then close it and not know what I what I What I read, I was frustrated.
People would say, you know, spend 15 minutes a day reading the Bible. I was very frustrated by that if I didn't know what it meant. It was for me the incredible opportunity. To Just spend the time I was trying to understand the scripture. Trying to understand accurate theology.
I was being kind of Reshaped. in my theological thinking in those early years and I knew that everything was at stake.
So back to the beginning at Grace Church. Describe some of the changes that you realized immediately were going to have to be made. This was a church that had come from a pastor who'd come out of Methodism and Arminianism, and I think the second pastor was a Baptist, right?
So it had. Shifted a little bit theologically, but really wasn't anchored in any identifiable doctrinal stance.
So doctrinally and even ecclesiologically, some significant changes needed to be made. I want you to talk about that, and then I then I have a specific question about it. There were people here who had Bible background. Bible background and They were really warm and receptive to me. But they had no sense of biblical ecclesiology.
They had all kinds of crazy structures and organizations and a lot of unconverted people on boards and in the choir and It was just it was a mess. Which is why I preach on Matthew 7 right out of the gate. I think You know, I was... You know, in my mind, I had, you know, I may never preach again. I got to do this this time.
That's why it was the first one. There was a ton of work to do.
So I knew I needed to preach, but I also knew. That if I tried to preach Through texts of scripture to build a systematic theology would take forever. And it would take too long. Uh so what I what I did was I started, first of all, I want to start basically in the Gospel of John because nobody can argue with Christ. And he's such a compelling person, and so the first two years was just a The Gospel of John.
But every Saturday for seven or eight years, I had all the men of the church together and took them through systematic theology. I started with Prolagamina, theology proper, and Everything. Just your own notes, or did you use a textbook? Yeah, a combination of my seminary notes and my notes.
So, I would encourage them along that line, but they really weren't ready for that book kind of thing. I had to kind of walk them through that, and that's how we developed the leadership of the church.
So, the leadership was being sort of. uh taught theology behind the scenes. And that went on for many, many years while we were expositing the scripture together. And exercise, I have to exercise, like Paul says, preach the word, but do it with patience.
So you have to be very patient for all these changes to take place. That's what I wanted to ask you, too. I've heard you say, and I think it's a profound observation, that. The number one mistake a lot of young pastors make when they go into a church is they're impatient in making the changes that need to be made. People are where they are because somebody they trusted brought them there.
Might have been their parents, might have been their grandparents, might have been a pastor that led them to the Lord, friend that led them to the Lord. They've sat in a Sunday school class, Sunday school teacher. You can't walk in and Just by the sheer force of your own personality or authority, make them throw away all those influences. It is a long process. of loving them.
being patient with them. Instructing them carefully. in the Word of God and not only telling them what it means but showing them why it has to mean that. Really good Bible exposition does not tell the people what this text means. It shows them what it must mean.
And the best way to show them what it must mean is to use other scriptures that elucidate on that. And that's how you preach expositionally with with the process exposed. And over time, over time, they begin to let go of things that and I think happily so as the light begins to dawn. I mean, you come into there's nothing more offensive to Arminians than the sovereignty of God in everything. They hate that.
But once they see it, they see it everywhere because it is everywhere. Then they can't avoid it, it's on every page of the Bible. And then they're different people. Worship is dramatically changed when people understand the doctrines of grace. Worship is revolutionized.
All right, let me get back to the question I asked earlier about changes that needed to be made. What were some of those changes? We needed to put spiritual leadership in the in the hands of the right godly men. That was the number one issue. It's really hard for someone with your depth of conviction to be patient when changes like that need to be made.
What did you do? You're never going to get them anywhere if you don't love them in the process. Right. You confront them with truth, but you have to love people in the process. The potential to make enemies over a half a century in the same church is massive.
It is massive. Yeah. Who doesn't offend with his tongue is a perfect man. That's not me. And how many other offenses have I laid down in the half a century?
How do you overcome that? I'm more concerned about me than I am about somebody else's issues with me. Take heed to yourself and your doctrine. And you exhibit patience, and in the process, you've got to reprove, rebuke. Probably the biggest.
The most dramatic change that we made in the church was to introduce church discipline. How far into your ministry? Oh, you know, just a few months. Really? Yeah.
And I didn't know any church anywhere, any time that I'd ever heard of that did church discipline. And I asked a few pastors and they said, you'll empty the place. You cannot do that. You mean you're going to stand up in a church service and give somebody's name? And tell their sin and put them out.
Say, well, that's what it says. It's not difficult. Yeah. Well, we have to do it. We have to do this.
This is what Scripture says. And it was a few months. There was a guy in the church who was an elder, a piano. Player and teacher of a Sunday school class.
So he came to me. and his wife and said We have a daughter who's going to get married, and she's going to marry this divorced guy from Las Vegas, and he's not a Christian, but we're praying for him, and she's going to marry this guy, and we want to have the wedding at the church. And we'd like you to do it.
Okay. That's not going to happen.
So I went to the elders and I told them what the story was, and they said, well, we've got to do it. He's involved in the church. Um We will violate The clear instruction of Scripture: if we marry a believer and an unbeliever. What Concord has Christ with Belial and went through all that. I can't do that.
I cannot do that. I cannot flagrantly disobey such a clear Uh command. Is it okay? We'll have it in the church and somebody else will do it. This was a moment.
This is a moment in history in which this church turned. I said, whose church is this? Is this your church? Is this my church or is this the church of the Lord Jesus Christ? And one guy said, we can't do it.
We can't do it. That whole family left this church. The price was high, but the moment transformed this church. Yeah. And that was And I'm thankful for that because that was so clear-cut.
It wasn't. It wasn't like, you know, Solomon cutting the baby in half. Did it cause you any angst at the time? No, no. No, right never calls me ang causes me angst.
Not even when you were younger. No, I don't know. You mean like I worried about what would happen? No, just, I mean, that's a difficult situation to go through, right?
Well, I felt bad for the people, and I tried to be kind to them and just let them know that I can't do this. This is not going to honor the Lord. You would have been probably the youngest of the elders at that time, right? Yeah. Was there anyone else?
I mean, you mentioned the guy that said he was a- Well, there was one other story you need to know. I came I came. In 1968, on December 21st, 1968, Um Three astronauts. Apollo eight, went around the moon and came back. This is massive.
I mean, this is the moment, right, of all moments. An American exploration history.
So this is 68. in December 21. Four weeks before that, there was a guest preacher here. I won't give his name. who preached the sermon on why God will never allow man to reach the moon.
Excellent.
Okay. So He had biblical reasons for that. Yeah, he tried. I wasn't here then, so I don't know, but it was kind of a. Interesting tale.
Six months later, or so, I think it was July 21st. of 1969 Uh they're walking on the moon. And so everybody kind of associated my coming here With all that moon stuff. Because I came in the middle between the two moon deals. Yeah.
But Just to show you They actually had a preacher who said something the Lord wouldn't do, and it happened immediately.
So they were. They saw the foolishness of that. And I think they they wanted some more seriousness. I think they were ready for the teaching of the Word of God. Right, right.
So the more you're teaching them, the more Yeah, and they never resisted it. There there were questions always, but They never resisted the teaching, particularly, I think, because I was teaching John in the morning. It's Sunday morning, and you just can't improve on the person of Christ.
So compelling, so magnificent, so glorious in the Gospel of John. I just wanted them to. I wanted them to, the ones that weren't converted to come to Christ, and I wanted the rest to love him more. And I think going two years through the Gospel of John, focused the whole church on. on the on the Lord himself and Then we did a lot of teaching about spiritual gifts because I believe that the body of Christ, the first book I wrote, The Church, the Body of Christ.
That was early in the ministry here. That was, I don't remember what the year was, but. But um Then that guy came to write an article about the church, and we had 900 people then, and he had titled the article Lowell Saunders from Moody. And he wrote the article title was Church with 900 ministers. And that was his observation that people were busy ministering.
And those were the two early focusing on Christ and seeing the church as the body of Christ where everyone is gifted and everyone serves. And those were transformative years for our church. Right. I was talking earlier with Sinclair Ferguson. He said that, I think he said it was a pastor who mentored him who celebrated 50 years in the same ministry.
And he was asking him about, he said, how did you do it? What was the secret to the longevity of your ministry and all? And that pastor told him. It was more like multiple ministry, seasons of ministry that things pass, and you realize, and I know you've had this experience, you realize you're actually ministering to a group of people who weren't there at the beginning. You almost have to go back and redo some of them.
You could go a lot of places and minister to different churches, or you can stay in the same place and minister to different churches. Right. You have not only an ebb and flow of people seasons. But churches have seasons. There's winters, and there's summer, and there's spring.
Churches go through. Seasons of trial and seasons of joy and seasons of challenging seasons of flourishing But There's an ebb and flow. You know, if you go back to the beginning, there's still charter members here. They're still, I mean, I'm, but I'm in, and I'm also ministering to the fourth generation. Right.
to the great-grandchildren of the people who were here at the beginning. But in the process, this church This church has absorbed the city of Los Angeles, and it looks like LA as it should, because this is the Lord's church in Los Angeles.
So it's changed as the city has changed. This was originally a Jewish community, totally Jewish community, all around this thing. That's why the synagogue is down on the block. It has morphed, and there's, we think there's about 11 languages within five-mile radius of here. And there's a Buddhist temple on the other end.
Yeah, so it's a Thai community now. And then there's a lot of Arabic people. You know, I said this through the years. If you tried to follow the church growth experts and find some target culture. We wouldn't know which one to pick.
We were always diverse and continue to be diverse, which is absolutely wonderful. There are lots of ways that you don't fit the narrative, and I get the feeling you like that. No, it's not a matter of like it. I don't really, I just want to be biblical. Right.
I don't hear. Here you are. Five miles north, maybe nine miles north of Hollywood, like the entertainment capital of the world, really. And yet, of all of the pastors I know in large churches and influential ministries, you are the least interested in trying to connect with the culture or whatever. It's like That to you is a...
We have a culture. It's called the Kingdom of God. Right. Talk about that. Because Because in a way, it is the secret, I think, to the future longevity of your ministry and the far-reaching aspect of it that because you're not into cultural issues, but you're teaching Scripture and explaining Scripture with Scripture and illustrating Scripture with biblical anecdotes.
It translates into any culture. And any time. Yeah, it's it's um I don't really care what the culture is doing. I mean, it ebbs and flows and shifts and changes. What does it have to do with the kingdom of God?
It has nothing to do with the kingdom of God. My kingdom is not of this world. They don't offer me anything. I don't need to understand anything about them other than what the Bible tells me about them. I'm not looking for cultural cues.
I don't want to be insensitive, but that I have. I have just watched the nations of the world. Come to Grace Church. And culture is Part of their A heritage. But doesn't intrude into the kingdom of God.
In any sense.
So, I'm not looking for anything for the world to give me any clues or any cues. Or any uh supposed access to hearts. The Word of God is alive and powerful. It's sharper than any weapon. The Spirit saves through the Word.
By the Word of truth, you're begotten again.
So I have never thought about culture. In fact, I think. When you do that, you inevitably get too close to it. And then it's hard to draw the line for your people. One last question.
You're not only pastor of Grace Community Church, but you head a number of very large and complex organizations. How do you do that and manage your time? What's the secret to that? And in the midst of all that, how much sleep do you get every night on average? It depends on how much my wife wants to talk to me.
And I love talking to her, but Uh no, I Well, you know the answer to that, Phil. Because you are one of those people that make it. possible for me to stand here and preach Because I don't have to manage grace to you, which I don't I ca I I'm I'm not Wired to do that anyway. It's just the still lead us, you know. How do I do that?
Just by example and precept and but I don't tell you what to do. Not unless we do something wrong and then you There is some truth in that. Yeah. There's a lot of truth in that. Yeah.
I just think the Lord surrounds you with people. I mean, you could ask the same thing about anybody in a corporate situation. There's a certain... There's certain leadership that you provide. And I provide that not so much in a personal way, although for some people.
That's true, but primarily in articulating The with clarity the message and the mission. from the pulpit and other whatever other books or whatever. But it's just the Lord has just collected people around us. It's just amazing. Um how Many incredibly gifted people the Lord has brought to Grace Church through the years.
And then gone through here and gone out. And, you know, we have what 100 missionaries now out in TMAI training. thousands of uh pastors and church leaders around the world. And um And this is just guys. training the next generation of pastors and leaders and yeah just this It's just amazing to and I'm a spectator.
I need to say this. This is not my vision. I've never had a vision. The only vision I ever had, I married. Yeah.
So I don't I Nobody knows the future. No one knows the future. All I can do is teach the Word of God, live a faithful life, disciple the people that God gives me, and only He knows the future. And I think you have to be very careful. The most The most popular con in the evangelical world is for some guy to say, The Lord gave me the vision of this, we need to do all the, we need to plant ten churches here and five over here and build this and do that and do that.
When you start hearing that, it's a good time to go out the back door because somebody's about to steal your wallet. And what's going to drive that is personal ambition, not any word from heaven, because God's not giving that kind of revelation. Right. Well, John. I want to say this, and I know I speak for multitudes.
Thank you for your faithfulness because there is no more profound influence in my life. No better example I've ever seen in the flesh. Just grateful for your faithfulness over all these years. And I know I speak for all of us just to say thank you for what you teach us. Thank you, Phil.
You're listening to Grace to You with John MacArthur. I'm Carl Miller.
Well, friend, as we remember the life and legacy of John MacArthur, we continue to find comfort and strength in the knowledge that John is now rejoicing in the presence of his Savior. And hopefully, you'll be encouraged to know that for however long God sustains grace to you through the support of His people, We'll be here, unleashing God's truth one verse at a time. And this ministry will always and only feature the Bible teaching of John MacArthur.
Well, speaking of being encouraged, we've been so encouraged by the notes that we've received from friends like you. And if you have a story about how God has used grace to you in your life, we would love to hear it. It doesn't have to be anything too long. If John's Bible teaching has made a difference in your life, let us know as you drop us a note today. Send it by email to letters at gty.org.
That address one more time, letters at gty.org. Or use the regular mail and reach us at GracetU, Post Office Box 4000. Panorama City, California, 91412. Or if you prefer, call our special remembrance phone line at 661-295-6288. You can record a message letting us know how John's teaching has strengthened your walk with Christ.
And you can also express your condolences to the MacArthur family. Leave your message at the remembrance phone line. Call 661-252-1. Again, if you've benefited from John's verse-by-verse Bible teaching, do let us know when you write. And thank you for your prayers for John's family, for the congregation of the Grace Community Church, for the team at this radio station, and for the staff of Grace to You.
Your prayers are crucial. In fact, taking us before the throne of grace really is the most important way you can support us. Thank you for your prayers. And now, on behalf of the entire Grace to You staff, I'm your host, Carl Miller, inviting you to join us for another half hour of Unleashing God's Truth, one verse at a time, on the next Grace to You.
