Sharing Your Pro-Life Views Post-Roe (Part 2 of 2)

I think they're looking to our churches going, do you have something relevant to say on this preeminent moral crisis or are you going to be silent like everybody else?

And when we demonstrate that we have good arguments, we draw people. That's Scott Klusendorf helping us better understand the value of human life and how to share that value with others, particularly those who are abortion minded. Stay tuned for an encouraging, informative conversation on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller. John, we heard some powerful statements last time from Scott Klusendorf from the Life Training Institute and our very own Robin Chambers, Vice President of Advocacy for Children. Always puts a smile on my face. What a title.

She's back in studio with us today and we'll hear more from her later on. These are two people who are on the front lines working tirelessly every day to protect preborn babies and to compassionately help women in need, which is what it's all about. Women who have an unplanned pregnancy and are scared and don't know what to do, where to turn for help.

And they, therefore, are considering abortion because it eliminates the issue. There's no greater love that can be shown to others than to tell them about God's love for every human being, everyone in the womb, outside of the womb. He formed us and knew us when we were in that mother's womb. That's right in scripture from David, right? So we have hope in Christ and we know that every person is valuable to Him.

Let me just quote something that has caught my attention because so many Christians are saying, well, you know, maybe abortion, the Lord didn't talk about it specifically. But you know, one of the things that's so true, look at the first century church and what were they doing because they were taught by the disciples and by what we call the fathers of the faith, those that the disciples taught. Those people wrote it down for us. They went through the commandments and clarified what Christians should be about. And this is in like 100 AD. And what they said was, thou shalt not procure abortion nor commit infanticide. They wrote it down. So if you're relying on that perspective, there is plenty of early writings about our attitude toward abortion as Christians.

Indeed. And there are lots of good solid believers who are talking about this issue in ways that are compelling and equipping for us. Scott Klusendorf is one of those people and his book, The Case for Life, Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture, is really a wonderful comprehensive guide to help you really influence others for life. Get a copy of that and find details about Scott and his ministry on our website. The link is in the show notes. Now, recently Jim had a conversation with Scott on the podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. It's a great show, Jim, and you really go deep in these conversations. We're taking just a portion of the conversation that they had about engaging others respectfully on this abortion issue. And Scott was tremendously encouraging.

Let's go ahead and hear that now. Let's talk about engaging abortion folks. One thing that I've decided, Scott, is I'm not talking about them as being pro-choice anymore because that's not their goal. Abortion people, the abortion industry, they're about abortion. They financially benefit from abortion. They nullify the humanity of the baby in the womb because of the other objectives that they have. And I don't think, you show up at a clinic, we have enough testimonies from women who talk about, it was cold, it was sterile, it was all about one thing, it wasn't about choice. So I'm done referring to them as pro-choice people. We have sounded pretty upset as we talk through the logic, but I do want to get to how you engage those pro-abortion people. You have three important questions that you suggest we should use in conversation.

Let's go through those. Well, part of that is compassion, right? I think we need to ask the question, what is the unborn? And that is vitally important because we need to know honestly what abortion is killing.

Intellectual honesty requires that. Then we want to ask the question, what makes humans valuable? And then the third question I always ask is, what's the fix for abortion for that man or woman who's participated in an abortion?

What's the fix for it? We need to know what that is and be able to offer compassionate care. I think a lot of our churches think that if they're silent on abortion, they'll spare post-abortion men and women guilt. In reality, they're sparing them healing because Unconfessed Sin has them out of full fellowship with Christ. So we want to tell the truth about abortion, but then compassionately point them to the Savior who can heal it. Let me ask you this, and you don't hear it as much anymore, but for a long time you heard senators, some predominantly from one party and even some within the other party that would use this, what I would call a get out of jail free card. Personally, I oppose abortion, but who am I to legislate what a woman should do to regulate her reproductive choices? That's kind of how it goes, right?

The 90s and the early 2000s, that was dominant. That's what every person that had a microphone in the Senate would say. But personally, I oppose it. So now we're checking that box.

I want abortion to be safe, legal and rare. Yeah, that was the follow-up comment. But in that regard, speak to that silliness of that response and what that really is saying. Well imagine if I said to you, Jim, I'm personally against spousal abuse, but I'll never pass a law about what you do with your own wife. Or engage you if you are beating your wife.

That's right. I'm not going to impose It sounds abhorrent. Yeah. And you know, you think about that bumper sticker, don't like abortion.

Well, don't have one. What's the key word in there? Like.

Notice what that does. When pro-lifers argue that abortion is wrong because it intentionally kills an innocent human being, we are making an objective truth claim. We are claiming it's wrong objectively. We're not saying we dislike it.

In fact, it's possible to like something and still say it's wrong. My 90 year old father-in-law still buys new Corvettes. I know where the keys are to his Corvette. I'll be out there in a few weeks.

I could take that thing on a joy ride up PCH Pass Malibu up to Santa Barbara. He'd never know. But though I would like to do it, Jim, I'm not going to do it because it would be wrong. Morality is about what's right or wrong, regardless of our likes or dislikes. And when people say, if you don't like abortion, don't have one, they've reduced our claim to a mere preference claim as if we're talking about ice cream flavors, not objective right and wrong. And we need to correct them on that and make sure they understand the kind of claim we're making rather than distorting it and changing it to a preference one they like better. Let me let me go back to something you were talking about a little while ago, this attachment to if then and one of the things that adamant pro abortion people say, well, if if you're not willing to adopt a child or if you haven't adopted a child from a woman who was in trouble, then again, you're the oppressor.

You have no right to talk about this to a degree. I think the church should be super involved in this. Oh, of course.

So I think it's actually it's not a bad thing, but it breaks down. If that's a bad or if you say I can't speak to it because I'm doing other things to feed the poor through my church or, you know, doing other activity, somehow you're disqualified. Just re-energize the people that have a passion here. Here's the question to ask your critic when your critic says, how many kids have you adopted? Oh, none. There goes your whole argument.

I want that. I want your listeners to look at their critic, not be snarky, but be very firm and say, help me out here. How does my alleged unwillingness to adopt a child justify an abortionist killing one? The pro-life argument is that it's wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings. Abortion does that. Therefore, it's wrong.

Let me plug in here, though, and I'd love your response to what we should be and can be doing as the community of believers. I mean, this goes back right to the beginning of the church in Rome. And I mentioned this quite often because I had read a great resource, a great book from a historian, secular school professor Christian, but he documented what was going on in the first century church and the practice in Rome, believe it or not, they had unwanted pregnancies then and women would go and unfortunately in Rome, this was acceptable.

If you had an unwanted child, you could leave it, expose it usually at the dumps of Rome where it could be eaten, mauled, die of exposure, what have you, but it was discarded like it was not human because it wasn't wanted. Now that shows a couple of things. One, nothing new under the sun. I mean, the same thing is happening today that was happening then.

Today it's just a little more sophisticated, they might say. In that regard, the church stepped up and went to those dumps and when those children were left to exposure, our forefathers and mothers would gather those children up, take them home and raise them as their own. And it gave great moral clarity to the church and convicted the Roman Empire over time. Obviously, 300 years later, the Roman Empire becomes Christian.

But speak to the impact and the need for us to be engaged. Oh, there's no doubt we as Christians ought to be leading the charge on things like adoption and foster care. And you know what? Christians are. And always have. And always have.

There's a myth out there. In fact, one commentator, Helen Avari at Harvard University calls the lazy slander of the pro-life cause where critics say, oh, you don't adopt any children, you just care about them before they're born. When in reality, when you look at the data, who are the people giving the most to charity? Who are the people stepping up wanting to adopt? You know why more of us don't adopt? The red tape is horrendous. I mean, the state is terrible.

Now the state interrogates you on your worldview. If you won't let this child become trans, we're not going to let you adopt him. I mean, whose fault is that? That kids are not finding homes. That's not our fault.

That's the state's fault. So this idea that Christians don't care is false, but we should care. And you know, you think about it, how this relates to the gospel.

The gospel is the story of God the Father declaring us sinners righteous in virtue of Jesus. And how can a holy God declare us righteous? Only because he sent his son to be the payment for sin that we need. We didn't have it in ourselves to atone for sin. God provides it through Jesus.

And then it gets even better. Those of us who have been redeemed by Jesus get adopted into God's family. Even though we're rebels against our maker, God, because of Jesus, adopts us into his family. So it's natural for us as pro life Christians, to want to be involved in adoption, and we should be. Yeah, it's so good.

I want to stress toward the end here, this idea of graciously, lovingly, giving the argument, because what you're really hoping for is not to win an argument, but to change a person's heart. And I think you're in Minnesota, you had a story that that happened. Yeah, it did. In fact, two weeks ago, at this church in Minneapolis, that's gargantuan, they have 12,000 people a Sunday. So you get 6000 a service, roughly, a guy came in first time visitor to that church. And I preached on the sin of abortion that day. And I had three main points, Jim, that doesn't happen in many churches. No, the way point number one, the sin of abortion is a preeminent moral crisis, because it involves the shedding of innocent blood. And the Bible is very clear that the shedding of innocent blood is particularly egregious to God. And I gave biblical support for that. Then I gave my second point that the shedding of innocent blood requires for forgiveness, the shedding of innocent blood through our Savior Jesus, and I preach gospel there. And then the third point was we have to respond to the shedding of innocent blood.

But I laid out a case biblically and logically for the pro life view using science and philosophy and Scripture. Now, keep in mind, this is a guy who's coming to church for the first time, he seeks out a staff member to tell that staff member, this was my first Sunday, and I walked in here believing abortion was okay, I have totally changed my mind. And I think this is important because a lot of Christian leaders think, Jim, that if we talk truthfully about abortion, we're going to drive people away.

Far from it. I think they're looking to our churches going, Do you have something relevant to say on this preeminent moral crisis? Or are you going to be silent like everybody else? And when we demonstrate that we have good arguments, we draw people, and it does take courage.

Yeah. And what's the old quote, you know, when, when one man stands with courage, the spines of others are strengthened, stiffened, which is so true. And I think this culture, I think Gen Z'ers, we're finding, they want some absolute truth. They're looking, they're hungry. It's like God's pendulum in a generation is beginning to shift back to what his truth is.

I think so. And I'll say one thing to your viewers here that I think is will make them feel better because they might have listened to everything you and I have talked about and thought, okay, those are two smart guys talking, but I'm, you know, I'm working a job. I'm raising kids in the home. How can I expect to persuade anybody? And I want, I want your listeners to understand this.

Our job is not to close the deal on the spot. Our job is to do what my colleague Greg Kogel says, put a pebble in their shoe, give them something to think about, love the people we're talking to, give them something to think about. And maybe two to three weeks later, when they're alone with their thoughts, driving through the Starbucks drive-through, they'll admit that you made some really good points that they need to reconsider. That's when you've won the argument.

And that's a good frame of mind actually. Scott, one thing that I love, I love speaking at the Pregnancy Resource Centers and you know, so many people in opposition to the PRCs, as we call them, you know, they'll say they're not real clinics. They're not true clinics.

They're really not there to help women. That is such an archaic argument. I will tell opponents of the pro-life movement when they say those things, they're dating themselves.

Cause that's like a 1972 argument. The Christian community through the Pregnancy Resource Centers have become very sophisticated in helping women make a choice for life and to then surround her with the practical materials to do that. Cribs, diapers, formula, job training, medical services. I mean, they are robust, far more robust than a Planned Parenthood clinic. Well, imagine this, a woman goes to Planned Parenthood and says, I'm going to keep my child. I don't want an abortion. What will you do for me? Bye-bye.

Yeah, bye-bye. Yet, if she comes to a pregnancy center, they offer her medical services. They offer her supplies that she might need. Baby formula, diapers, counseling. They help her boyfriend come to terms with the pregnancy. They'll help that client talk to her parents if she needs to. And all of this is being done with private funding.

The pregnancy centers are funding this. Yeah, they don't get a billion dollars of tax revenue. No, they don't.

They don't. So that's a good reminder. And, and to be engaged. That's one thing you can do. Go to church on Sunday.

That's awesome. But then volunteer at the local pregnancy center. Volunteer at the pregnancy center. And I will encourage parents, get your students pro-life apologetics training. They need to get that training because here's what's going to happen. You take them to church week after week, and then they're going to turn 18, and they're going to be sent off to college. And there's going to be people there for the next four years that are going to work overtime to talk them out of their faith.

Right. And if our kids aren't equipped to engage, they could be at risk. Well, and that's why this book is such a great resource. I wrote the book thinking, what can I write in a post-war world to help Christians engage rather than retreat? I realize these are dark days for us, but quitting is not an option. You know, I think about the prophet Jeremiah, God told him to stand in the city square and prophesy and testify against child sacrifice. And then God gave him this alarming news.

No one is going to listen to you. Our job description isn't that bad. So we've got to be faithful to testify to what's true, even though the culture wants to look the other way. Let's end here. That woman who had an abortion, who is in Christ, she's found forgiveness in Christ.

Let's speak to that one who may struggle or maybe has not made that commitment to the Lord. What a perfect time they're listening. They might be really upset at us right now.

They can't, we can't hear them obviously, but they're not happy that we're talking about this because we're not in a position as two white men to be talking about this. Let's just use that argument. But what can we convey about the heart of God to them and his mercy toward us? I mean, this is true for every one of us.

It is. It's the heart of the gospel. You and I are rebels, as is everybody else on this planet. By default, we are not good people. We are part of a race that rebelled against its creator. And the only hope for any of us, whether we've had abortions or not, is not found in us. In fact, the Protestant reformers spoke of what they called an alien righteousness.

They weren't talking about monsters. They were talking about a righteousness outside of us that Paul speaks of in Romans three. Paul in Romans one and two, indicts the entire human race. The pagan world knows the truth, but suppresses it.

The religious world knows it, but doesn't behave it. And Paul comes along and says, there's nobody righteous, all are guilty. And then he says this, but now a righteousness from God apart from our works has been revealed. And that righteousness is found in his son, Jesus, who came to earth and lived the perfect life of obedience we have not lived and who paid for our sins by dying on a cross. And for that post-abortion man and woman, here's what I say to them. You don't need an excuse for what you did.

You need an exchange. You need Christ's righteousness for your sinfulness. And if you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ in virtue of believing in him for salvation, God, the father no longer judges you on your merits. You're judged on Christ's perfect righteousness.

Guess what you're in, you're into God's family because you're now your legal representative is Jesus, not yourself. And that's why we call it the good news. It's good news.

I'd say the great news. I don't know who got it to good, but yep. This has been so good, Scott, really. I just love the articulation that you bring to it. You have spent a lifetime form formulating arguments, talking with people. I really want to hit that reminder of when you're talking with somebody who is pro-abortion, use questions, engage it, be kind overall.

Plant that pebble. You're not looking at a zero, not a zero sum game. You can be firm, but don't be mean. Yeah.

Somebody once said to me that regardless of where we're encountering the culture on LGBT issues, on the abortion issue, do not go out of your way to be hated. Let the gospel do that. The gospel will create division.

Yeah. But Jim, these people are no more lost than you were. You and I were before God found us. So talk about arrogance. That is spiritual arrogance. When we think the apostle Paul was saved in spite of the fact he was killing Christians.

I think there's hope for anyone who trusts in Jesus alone for salvation. And we're swinging away in this debate. We have our sea life event coming up June 15th. We're excited about that event always does well. And it is a good reminder for the church and for the unchurched to better understand this issue of abortion and hopefully to sprinkle heavy doses of truth.

Focus on the family for decades has been a very good mix of grace and truth, presenting the truth about what's going on in culture, but encouraging your listeners to act Christ-like toward those who are lost. So appreciate it, Scott. Thanks for being with us.

Thank you for having me. What a great conversation. That was Scott Klusendorf on a recent episode of Refocus with Jim Daly, Jim's new podcast, which goes deep and really covers a lot of great issues.

We'll link over to the full episode in the show notes. And right now we've got Robin Chambers, our vice president of advocacy for children here in the studio with us. Robin, there was so much there in that discussion. You heard Scott talking about pregnancy resource centers and other ways we can support life. Focus on the Family and Pregnancy Resource Centers have made great strides moving into high abortion communities, targeting areas where we know many, many abortions are occurring. And we know that roughly 60% of abortion minded women keep their baby if they had support.

And if they had, I think it's one person in their corner. What would you add to Scott's comments to encourage the everyday person to get involved? First and foremost, pray. Pray for those people on the front lines.

They are in tough, tough situations, life and death situations every day. Find a way to volunteer, do their gala, do their walk, go to their material resources closet, help with diapers and formula and sorting all of that. Take action, just get involved.

Call and say, what can I do to help? Absolutely. That's a good way to do it. I want to share a story that illustrates the impact of placing ultrasound machines in pregnancy resource centers and all that goes along with that. We have an amazing story from a couple named David and Justine that reminds people of what we've been talking about.

Let's listen. Dave and I had just met. I didn't know him at all. She was an alcoholic. I was a drug addict eight, nine years ago now. You wouldn't have let me in your house. I was in and out of prison, miserable, upset. I didn't want to make it past 35.

I had no purpose in life. Very shortly after we met, we found out we were pregnant. I literally moved away from Dave and I stared out a window and just, I went numb.

It was the longest night of my life. All I kept thinking was, what am I going to do? I couldn't even take care of myself and I was supposed to start this journey with a man that I didn't even know. I was told I would never have kids. When Justine got pregnant, there was no words to describe the joy that I had from that news.

The fact that she wanted to have an abortion, I couldn't handle it. I searched online for free pregnancy tests and the pregnancy clinic is the first thing that popped up. Planned Parenthood was directly across the street and I thought to myself how convenient. We got the ultrasound. I had said to Dave, I don't want anything to do with the heartbeat and thank God they didn't ask. They just flipped a switch and there was the heartbeat.

I looked at Dave and I said, that's our baby. Life refocused when I heard the heartbeat and it just changed everything. When my daughter smiled at me for the first time, it couldn't have been more perfect. Life now, it's miraculous.

We chose life and that life led us to Christ and so we started going to church and due to the love being poured into us at church, we decided to get married and because of that marriage we have three beautiful babies and we're so blessed. The ultrasound machine that saved my baby's life, my family's life, was donated by Focus on a Family. I am forever grateful.

If my daughter had never come into my life, I would be dead. That ripple effect rescued the future. That is a tremendous story and I use that not in the way that we throw it around every day. That was a tremendous story. When that couple said, Focus on the family provided that, we didn't. We were the conduit. You provided it and certainly Gene and I support the ministry.

I know Rob and you and your husband do and you and Dina do. We're just all in this together. Can you be a part of it? If you haven't done this, join us. Let's do this in all these states that are struggling. Let's be a part of a solution as the Christian community.

We know the metric. We've been doing it for 20 years. We know it's $60 to save a baby's life through Option Ultrasound and I want to extend an invitation to have you join us and if you can, that gift will be doubled right now so your $60 becomes $120 and that's because of some friends at Focus that believe so strongly in what we're doing. They're putting a bunch of money up to incentivize you to do it and it's a fun way to do it.

Don't be upset about it. They're just wanting to say, hey, we're in. We want you to be in too so let's do this together. If you've never given to Focus, what a great opportunity to come in and be part of the solution with us.

Man, I'm looking forward to what we'll get to see in heaven when we get there. Robin and her team's hard work, you hearing us today, supplying the fuel to actually go out there and save a baby's life, save a family in this case. Wow, won't you join us? Yeah, make a difference today when you donate to Focus on the Family.

It's 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459 or stop by the show notes. And for a gift of any amount today, we'll say thank you for stepping up and being a part of the support team by sending a copy of the terrific book by Scott Klusendorf called The Case for Life, Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture. And then let us tell you about Sea Life 2024. We've mentioned it a few times here. It's a big event coming up in just a couple of weeks on the Focus on the Family campus, Saturday, June 15th.

It's an opportunity for you to get engaged and to be encouraged and to be better equipped to stand for life. The event is here on campus in Colorado Springs. We also have a simulcast and we hope you can join us.

Look for all the information about Sea Life 2024 on our website. Robin, again, so good to have you with us. Thanks for what you're doing each and every day. Thanks so much for having me on, Jim.

We're so glad you joined us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller encouraging you to be with us next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Are you a pastor? Then you know ministry is full of challenges, but those challenges sometimes come from lies that you believe about your role and expectations of you. As a pastor, you and your spouse need to be refreshed and encouraged. And that's why Focus on the Family presents the Focused Pastor Couples Conference. Join us as we hear from Paul David Tripp, Dr. Greg Smalley, Ted Cunningham, and more. Mark your calendar to join us on October 28th through 30th right here at Focus on the Family in Colorado Springs. Visit thefocusedpastor.com slash refresh for more details.