Sharing Your Faith with Grace and Purpose

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For more details, visit focusonthefamily.com slash see life. Jesus very rarely got to the so-called gospel. You know, he didn't get out the steps and then invite people to receive Christ. A lot of what he did was get to the bad news and he didn't get to the good news. What was he doing? He was getting people thinking about the things they needed to be thinking about.

He was what I call putting a stone in their shoe, annoying them in a good way. Well, Greg Kochel joins us today on Focus on the Family to give you some practical ideas for how to share your faith with pretty much anybody you run into. Your host is Focus President and author Jim Daly and I'm John Fuller. You know, John, we don't mention it very often, but we have five strategic areas in mind at Focus on the Family. The first is evangelism and discipleship. Today's program fits into that. Of course, second would be marriage and then third parenting and advocacy for children. That's our ultrasound machine project, our foster adoption efforts, and then engaging the culture.

So if you wonder how we decide shows and what we want to do, typically it's going to fit into those five areas. And today I'm really happy to say we are concentrating on evangelism and discipleship with our guests. When you look at the culture today, there's so often this angst about sharing faith. Should I do it? Should I not? I might be embarrassed.

I might be called a name. And I think at the end of today's program and with the resource we're going to talk about, you will be fully equipped to engage somebody in a discussion about eternity, about their relationship or non-relationship with God and what they can do to remedy that. Yeah, and Greg Kochel is an apologist for the faith. He's founder and president of Stand to Reason Ministries. He's the host of a talk show and he's written a number of books, including one that we're talking about today, Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions. And we have copies of that here at the ministry.

Give us a call, 800-AFAMILY, or click the link in the show notes. Greg, welcome to Focus on the Family. Thank you, fellas.

It's a real treat to be with you today. Now, I want to start in an interesting spot. When you were younger and you, like many people in your 20s it feels like, you were smarter than the average guy and you thought, I don't need to be a Christian.

I mean, I'm smarter than these guys and they're not that smart. Why did you have that feeling? Well, I was raised in a Christian environment and it was very perfunctory, you know. You just kind of go to church on Sundays. You do the basic things, but there was nothing else in our life really that was deeply informed by but our spiritual convictions. We lived a secular life most of the time.

It's like a lot of people. And so, when I was about 17 years old, maybe 18, I was challenged to buy my own convictions and somebody asked me, do you really believe that? And I thought to myself, no, I guess I don't really believe it. And then I walked away. Now, this was mid-60s and so there were lots of distractions that were entering the culture at that time that were a lot more appealing than religion. And so, I went that way and I left religion behind me.

And then I got, I was at Michigan State University and an honors program there, honors college there and a pre-law program. And I just, like you mentioned, I thought I was too smart to be a Christian. I thought it was for people who needed to have other people do their thinking for them basically. And I just didn't want any of that. So, I just walked away from that. And for about six years, I totally embraced a secular culture.

Yeah. And in some ways that gives such validity to your conversion. And the other aspect I like about it that you wrote about in Tactics is just the slow process it was. It wasn't this instantaneous blinding of a light that, you know, there was only yes or no. I mean, it, and that truly is how most people come to faith is over time. That's a really good observation that's pertinent to our discussion today, because very few people nowadays, when they hear the gospel for the first time, or even the second time, or maybe the third time, say, all right, I get it. I'm in.

Where do I sign up? You know, there's lots and lots of resistance to the gospel. And so, when we have an evangelism technique that is focused on harvesting, okay, let's pray with the person. Let's give them a sign on the dotted line.

Let's close the deal. Man, that really puts a lot of Christians off, because that seems like fighting words for a lot of folks. And in our culture, with the hostility that seems is building more and more, okay, this just scares people away, Christians. And I understand that completely.

And so, they're sitting on the bench rather than being engaged. And over the years, I have come to understand that before there can be a harvest, there has always got to be a season of, let's just call it, gardening, all right? It's that period of time that we experience, if we become Christians as adults, that we've been thinking over, mulling over, listening, pushing away from the table, coming back to the table, asking questions, that long period of time that usually has multiple people involved in our lives doing a little here, doing a little there before the harvest is ready. And that's the thing that I focus on in my approach. And the point is, it's always in the back of your mind, that should be, is this person ready?

Do you think this person's there? But a good approach is to consider yourself the gardener and to water and to till and to pick out a couple of weeds. And those weeds, in my mind, would be people that have errant beliefs about Christianity, about Christians, who Christ was. I mean, that's the weeding of the spiritual garden in that person's heart.

That's right. In fact, I'll put it more strongly than that, I have been a Christian for 47 years. Most of that time I've been in active ministry.

Stand to Reason is 28 years old, so I've spoken to more than 80 college and university campuses around the country and other places in the world. But I never have it as my goal to get somebody to sign on the dotted line when I engage in a conversation with them about Christ. And the reason I don't do that is because I have a plan that I've found to be much more effective to making a difference, especially in the gardening thing. I learned a long time ago that I wasn't really a good harvester, even though I'd prayed during the Jesus movement with people to receive Christ.

I realized that what I do when I speak at events, when I write books, when I'm on shows and in my own radio show, what am I doing? I'm just gardening. I'm tilling. I'm planting.

I'm pulling weeds here and there. And in the process of gardening over time, people get ready for the harvest. And when the harvest is ready, when the fruit is ripe, it just falls into the basket. It's easy when the fruit is ripe. And this is why I think most people are not harvesters, but they've been forced into a harvest mode.

I think most people are gardeners. No, that's good. And we're going to unpack that and explore that over the next few minutes. Let me start with a phrase that I've used, which is something like this. You can't argue someone into the kingdom.

I may say that slightly differently. It's more like the finger wagging, because what I have found is that when you are arguing with somebody vehemently, with emotion, if I could say it that way, people's hearts tend to close down. I mean, how many people do you respond to that are in your face arguing with emotion? But you do say there's a way to argue lovingly.

And I would accept that, but I just think the finger wagging argument, I mean, my own spirit closes down to somebody who's rushing me emotionally. Well, my approach to that is if anybody gets mad, I lose, all right? If I get mad, I lose. If they get mad, I lose. Okay, and a lot of times people get mad because of the style. Now, my response to that comment that you can't argue anyone into the kingdom is maybe a little different, because I'm thinking of arguing as making a case as opposed to getting into a quarrel.

If you're getting a quarrel, people get mad, they're blocked off. But if you're making the case, offering reasons for it, that's powerful when used by the Holy Spirit. Let me ask you in that context, though, how do you refrain from the emotion of making the case? And I think that's key, because unlike the maybe detached attorney who's pleading with the judge or the jury, that seems very applicable. But when you're in it going, listen, that is stupid what you're thinking.

I mean, that's not going to work. Listen, I'm chuckling now because I'm at focus of the family, and in families you have discussions that sometimes are tense, and that's like asking a husband, how do you keep from getting emotional when you're arguing with your wife? And the answer to that, of course, is practice. You have failures, you come back to the table, you work it out, you reflect on how you did, because it's not easy. But I've found, though, the more confidence a person has in their view, all right, the more courage they're going to have in addressing issues and the more grace they're going to have in engaging people. And this is why apologetics, the art of giving answers for challenges or making a case for your view, this is why it's so important for the rank-and-file Christian to be able to traffic in in some degree, because this gives them the confidence. And when you're confident of your view, you don't have to raise your voice, you don't have to shake your finger at people. You can just slowly, carefully, graciously offer something like using the game plan that I discuss in the book Tactics, and in a few simple steps, get into a conversation that doesn't cause you to get so angry. I've had so many people have said, thank you for this book, because it's changed my life. And this is the phrase I get most often, gentlemen, from those who have talked to me about the book, it's changed my life, because it's given them a tool that allows them to do the very thing that you're talking about, Jim. And that is to have a conversation without having a fight.

And we're going to touch on some of those, but I'm kind of knocking the arguments out of the way here in the beginning. And so temperament's another one for me, because I tend to be more extroverted, so I can be on an airplane and have a discussion with somebody. And, you know, sometimes I feel for the more introverted person, who starts with just speaking to a stranger can be intimidating. So it doesn't have to do with their position in Christ or anything like that, it's the way God has made them. They're more introverted.

I mean, is it their fault? I mean, how does that more introverted person take on the challenge and talk to somebody? No, this is such a good question, because it fits perfectly into the first step of the game plan that I discuss in the book. What I want to encourage people to do is to just think about getting into the shallow end of the pool.

The simplest way to do that is to ask questions of people. Kind of like what Jesus did. There's what Jesus did like 360-some times in the Gospels. I mean, he used questions all the time. But I call this the Columbo approach, or the Columbo tactic, after Lieutenant Columbo from 1960s TV fame. And he would solve the crime by coming in low-key, under the radar, scratching his head, mumbling, you know, and then, do you mind if I ask you a question, kind of thing. And then he asked a question.

So if we are Christians who want to make a difference for Christ, but we really don't know how to navigate, why don't we just take a few moments—and this is the very first step of the game plan—not worried about getting them to sign on the dotted line, not even worried about getting to the Gospel yet. That might not happen in this conversation. This might be a simple gardening conversation.

Okay, well, you just put a stone in someone's shoe. You just get them thinking. Why don't you start gathering some information? And sometimes it's general information about the person. You mentioned something about relationship earlier, Jim.

Sometimes a relationship that's congenial for sharing the Gospel can happen in just a few minutes if we are gracious and show interest in the other person. And so the more information we can gather from that person, not only about themselves, but if we start moving in spiritual topics or they come up about their ideas, the better. And so this is why I encourage people to use a question like, what do you mean by that? When somebody brings something up that has a spiritual context or a challenge, well, all Christians are hypocrites or the Bible's been changed or, well, Jesus never really existed. Now, some of these seems to be straightforward claims, but if you ask the question, what do you mean by that?

Now the ball is back in their court. You're showing interest in their point of view, and you let them talk. And the more they talk, the better it is for you because you're getting more information that you might be able to use in a moment. Yeah, and these kinds of questions disarm the person and give a little bit less oxygen to that emotion.

So yes, that's right. We want you to get a copy of this book by Greg Kokol. It's called Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions.

We've got it here at Focus on the Family, and our number is 800, the letter A and the word family, or click the link in the episode notes. Greg, in fact, that Colombo approach, I love it. And I've used that term in the past not even knowing this is something that you coined. But you use that Colombo approach with a woman who declared herself as a Wiccan witch on the issue of abortion. Talk us through that because, again, it's another great illustration of how to engage in a conversation.

Give us the setup, what you said, and how you got into the issue of abortion. This was in northern Wisconsin where we have a place, and I know, John, you're from Wisconsin. It's a wonderful state. I love it there. And so I go fishing when I go up there. I did as a kid.

And here I caught this big smallmouth bass. I got a picture of it. I wanted to get it digitized. And so this young lady was helping with the process, okay? And I noticed that she had a five-pointed star around her neck. That's a pentagram.

That's often an occultic symbol. So I asked her, does the jewelry have religious significance for her? And she said, yes, I'm a pagan. And then she began to talk a little bit about it. And I realized, as I'm asking her more questions, notice the questions, getting more information, I realized that I'm talking to a witch.

And so I just asked her, are you Wiccan? And then she said, yes, and explained her view. We respect all life, is what she said.

And I said, oh, that's great. If you respect all life, that would probably make you pro-life with regards to the abortion question. And she said, no, I'm actually pro-choice. I said, isn't that strange for a witch to be pro-choice? And she said, well, because most of them are pro-life, as it turns out. And so she said, it is a little bit odd.

And then she says the strange thing. She said, I know I could never do that, referring to abortion. I could never kill a baby. It's so odd that she's identifying abortion as baby killing, even though she's in favor of it. And so I said, well, maybe you wouldn't want to kill babies, but maybe we should stop other people from killing babies.

And she said, I think everything should be taken into consideration. I said, okay, what would make it legitimate to be able to kill a baby? And she said, incest.

So it's a standard kind of slogan from pro-choicers. And so then I said, if I had a two-year-old standing next to me who had been conceived by incest, then in your view, I should be allowed to kill this child. And that stopped her in her tracks because it was a fair application of her view, but she didn't know how to respond to it. Now, notice that in every step of the way, I am using questions to either gather more information or, in this point, to exploit a weakness in her view.

And she didn't know how to respond to it, okay? Now, I did notice at this point that the line was growing behind me, okay? So I needed to stop my conversation. Now, I hadn't got to the gospel yet, all right? But notice I wasn't on that train, you know? I wasn't pursuing that approach.

Instead, I was gardening. And so I was free to do what I could in the circumstance I had and leave it there and let the Holy Spirit work with it. And Greg, what's so important with that and for all of us to think about is that you're helping them kind of unshackle their philosophy. That's right.

Which is a good thing to do. You're not there to win. And I think so often, even Jesus demonstrated that. Of course, he's the winner of all times, right? He wins. But whether he encountered the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, or all of his engagements, he doesn't display kind of this, I must win the argument mentality. He does exactly what you're saying. He leads the person to a conclusion, which is a righteous conclusion.

That's what you're talking about. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you mentioned Jesus here, because Jesus very rarely got to the so-called gospel, you know? He didn't get out the steps and then invite people to receive Christ. A lot of what he did was get to the bad news, and he didn't get to the good news. What was he doing? He was getting people thinking about the things they needed to be thinking about.

He was what I call putting a stone in their shoe, annoying them in a good way. Yeah. Greg, we're running out of time, and there's so many great questions here. Probably the biggest question in the world, the number one search on social media.

If God is so good, why is there evil in the world? I mean, it's the question. And you consider it a self-defeating argument.

Why? Well, I have a way of putting this, and this is one of the more complex issues, and it's hard for people to get it sometimes. But let me just put it this way, all right?

This is dealing with the argument I'm not bringing tactics in at this particular point, okay? Everybody in the world, doesn't matter when they lived or where they lived, know one thing's true, that something's wrong with the world, that the world is not the way it's supposed to be, all right? But think about it. There can't be a way that it's not supposed to be right now, problem of evil, unless there is a way that it is supposed to be. And there can't be a way the world's supposed to be without a sposer. So if there is no God, there is no way for the world is supposed to be.

There is no right and wrong. There is just what people want, or maybe what their evolution has tricked them into believing, but there is no right and wrong to be violated for the problem of evil. What this means is—and I've gone a little quickly here, and I go in more detail in the book on this—what this means is the problem of evil is not a good argument against God, it is a good argument against atheism. It is one of the best arguments for the existence of God, and that's called the moral argument for the existence of God. Well, and I want to tease that out just a little bit, because in the book you equate that to the score of a bowling match, or probably any game, that if we didn't have the score, we wouldn't know who's winning.

Describe that, because I think that was a good way to apply that to the existence of God. You don't know a good bowler from a bad bowler unless you have a way of keeping score, or golfer, or anything else for that matter. Football, you have a way of keeping score. So when we say there's bad in the world, we're saying that something has happened that gets a low score when it should be scoring high. But my question is, where does the scoring system come from? Well, the scoring system can only come from someone who has the authority to make the rules for the whole world, and that's God. If there is no God, there's no scoring system, and if there's no scoring system, there is no absolute good or bad. There is just personal feelings and personal beliefs and opinions, and that's all you can say, you can say moral relativism, okay? But there is really a problem of evil.

Everybody knows that. Therefore, there must really be a scoring system, therefore there must really be a God. Well, and another way of saying that too is, you always draw the line somewhere depending upon your moral compass, right?

Whether you're a believer or non-believer. There's always something going on in the world, sex trafficking, exploitation of children, that everybody is going to agree upon generally, and that's your point. Those are the current hot buttons too, and that's a place to go when people are trying to deny objective morality, start pushing their hot buttons. Because the fact is, Jim, everybody is made in the image of God, and they have a moral machine built in whether they like it or not. This is part of the inside out tactic that's in the book.

It's going to come out. They're going to talk in objective moral terms even when they try to deny objective morality. You've hit that inside out.

Go ahead and describe it since we've touched it so often. It simply means that since everybody is made in the image of God and they must live in the world that God has made, that means there is truth inside them. We read about this in Romans 1. Whether or not they acknowledge it. Well, they do acknowledge it.

This is the point, but they don't do it consciously. It's what God put on the inside is going to come out on the outside. That's the inside out, and all we have to do is listen for it. And pretty soon people start saying things that are fully consistent with the Christian worldview, but they are not at all consistent with the worldview they say they espouse.

And that's the inside out factor. And if you're alert for it, you can then ask questions about the contradiction that you hear. One of the examples you use in that is in the area of same-sex marriage, if that's a natural function that some have claimed, that this is the way we're wired, this is what God has done.

They'll even claim that. But then you talk about same-sex adoption. Now, these are really touchy subjects. I get that.

People are listening right now going, I can't believe Jim's talking about that. But it's a real formidable argument that you make. Go through that idea of same-sex marriage and then parenting within same-sex adoptive couples. Think of the argument that is offered oftentimes in favor of homosexuality and therefore justifies same-sex marriage. And that is, homosexuality is natural for me and therefore you can't object to it. Now, the equation there is, if it's natural, then it's moral. If it's not natural, then it's not moral, okay? But when you think about that line of thinking that they're holding, if homosexuality is natural for them, that makes it good, then having homosexual couples having children is not natural for them. So therefore, on the same standard they're offering, then having children or adopting children is not right, it's wrong.

Now, notice I'm not imposing— Because it wouldn't be natural. Yes. Notice I'm not imposing my own standard. I'm just applying their standard consistently. And asking them to live by that. Yes. If we're going to be honest about this, if this is really the moral standard you're living by, then this is what results.

This is another tactic called taking the roof off. And it can be very, very powerful in different circumstances. This is an example of one of them. No, and again, I think one of the core things there in my coaching or my leadership in this area is to always remember that God's heart is for everybody, regardless of where they're at in life. And I don't care if you're same-sex attracted or a Pharisee within the church who looks down on other people who don't live according to your standard.

It's equally wrong. And I just want to make sure that people understand that. Well, your mission statement, I read it outside, it says, partnering with the Holy Spirit to spread the gospel. And boy, that's my spirit as well.

That's my project. That's what I want people to see. You can use reasons, arguments, a technique like the tactical game plan, but we want to partner with the Holy Spirit when we do it. Now, Greg, we're right at the end.

We have stuffed this half hour with as much. I mean, people are probably scribbling notes. Guess what?

You don't have to get a copy of the book, and we'll explain how to do that in a minute. But speak to the person who is starting to feel like, okay, maybe I can do this. They've been reserved in their faith. But God says to us to go out and proclaim the good news to the whole world so that we don't get a get out of jail free card here. Well, part of the expectation is we've become part of the family of God, that we will share that with others appropriately.

And that's what I love about what you're doing. But how can they know when it's the right opportunity to start a faith discussion? This is probably the core question.

Yeah. Well, this is where I think the gardening concept comes in. And I mentioned earlier, switching metaphors here, getting into the shallow end of the pool. If you use the tactical game plan, even the first two steps, and just start asking questions of people, drawing them out in a personal way, asking, what do you mean by that? If they raise a spiritual issue, a point of view, ask them the second question, how did you come to that conclusion? Now, notice this puts no Christian at any risk of any kind, because we're not putting anything on the table. We are just drawing the other person out. But I promise you, Jim, and I promise your audience, they will be amazed just by these first two steps, not even trying to make a case, how powerfully the Holy Spirit will use those first two questions of the game plan to get them moving forward and to put a stone in someone's shoe.

It's amazing. Stone in their shoe, not in their forehead. I mean, seriously, that's really important. I never thought of it that way. It's a good contrast.

You can take it with you. But Greg, man, this has been so good. And I get excited about this. It's probably the Spirit in me. I love these discussions. And I love the thoughtfulness in which you've done this. I mean, you have taught this at Biola.

You're just living it. And I so appreciate that example. Some of us, you know, we're trying to keep marriages together and help parents be better parents. But when you get right down to it, this is a critical part of our lives.

It's absolutely teaching people about who Jesus is and helping them better understand in a gracious way. So thank you again for being with us. Now, listen, again, we can't cover everything in the book tactics, but we've given you a solid sense of the great content that's in it. So get a hold of us here at Focus on the Family to get your copy. If you can partner with us, that's a great way to do it. For a gift of any amount, we will send you a copy of Greg's book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.

And you get a great book. I'm really excited to get this information into your hands. And I can't think of anything more important than being equipped to talk to another human being about Jesus Christ. And I'm also excited about our upcoming event, the Celebrate Life Live experience that's coming up in Dallas Fort Worth on Saturday, August 28. So mark your calendar and make plans to join us in person. The lineup of pro-life speakers and musicians is just outstanding. And I can't wait to see how God is going to use this event to inspire multiple generations to step up and take a stand for life. Yeah, and you can find out more about the Celebrate Life Live experience in Dallas Fort Worth on the 28th. And you can also donate and get your copy of the book by our guest, Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions.

All the details are in the episode notes. Well, join us again tomorrow, please, as we help you better understand the different seasons in your marriage. It's the season of planting good seeds and uprooting weeds, the things that we don't want to see in our relationship.

So in nature and in relationships, the season of spring is really important. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Help families thrive for generations to come. Find out more at FocusLegacyCommunity.com. That's FocusLegacyCommunity.com.