Rebuilding Trust in Your Marriage After Infidelity (Part 2 of 2)

Ken spends a lot of time away from home working on the pipeline in Alaska, but our podcast has become his lifeline. Focus on the family has helped my marriage by leaps and bounds. You give us so much meat and potatoes to think about.

It just keeps us grounded, keeps me grounded. I'm Jim Daly. Together we can bring real hope to marriages like Ken's.

Give today at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Real Families. Well, imagine finding out that your spouse has been unfaithful. You just discovered he or she is cheating on you. Here's Jill Savage recalling just such a moment. I was on my living room floor.

I was home alone, just bawling my eyes out, begging God to tell me what to do. And I heard one thing, one thing. I heard him say, I want you to love him.

Well, you can hear the pain and anger and uncertainty. And we have hope for you today because Jill did grab onto God and walk faithfully with him. And she and her husband, Mark, are here today with us on Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller, your host as Focus President and author, Jim Daly. A word of caution for our parents in the audience. If you have young kids, they really probably shouldn't be listening to this program.

We'll be touching on some really tender topics. John, all I can say for those who are joining us today and didn't hear the program last time, get it, because that really sets the emotional credibility for what we're going to talk about today. And Mark and Jill were so open about and transparent about their circumstances back then. I think it's worth going back, get the smartphone app if you haven't already done that and you can listen to the program from last time.

Or you can go to the website and download it that way. But it really was powerful. And in fact, we just didn't cover the content we wanted to cover. So I've asked Mark and Jill to rejoin us for today. So we can talk about the help and the hope for your marriage, especially if you're going through something or suspecting that your spouse may not be honest with you right now and maybe in a relationship with someone else.

It's far more common than we want to admit. And again, we want to give you the hope that is found in Christ. And Jill has captured a lot of the lessons that she and Mark have learned in a little booklet called Your Next Steps, what to do when your spouse is unfaithful.

We have copies of that here. Click the link in the episode notes or call 800 the letter A in the word family. Jill and Mark, welcome back to Focus. Thank you. Thank you. It's so good to have you back.

And I mean that. And thank you for extending our time together on the broadcast. As I mentioned, we spoke last time about that brokenness, what was going on in your relationship. Mark, for those just joining today, you're in and out of this affair seven, eight times over the period of just over six months trying to figure out what to do. You separated.

You were living in an apartment. You had five children. And Jill, you're just hanging on by a thread, I can imagine. And you expressed some of that last time. You began to develop hope, not trust, but you had hope that God could heal your marriage.

And it took Mark a little longer to get there. That's kind of the background as to where we're at now. And I do want to concentrate on those common barriers that couples have to overcome, that you overcame, to fix your marriage and to move in a healthy direction, in a Christ-centered direction. So how can a couple successfully avoid the blame game, which is one of those barriers?

And we were into that a bit last time, but each having a list. And Jill, we can expand on this a little bit. Again, I'm so proud of women. And again, this is a generalization. I know it's not everybody.

Women have this incredible capacity to look at themselves. I mean, as a man, you know, it gives me tears because you're so quick to say, what have I done? Where have I fallen short?

What's my problem? And Mark, you typified the man. Hey, I got a list on you. And it's really your fault that I'm in this mess. I mean, we're like little boys. You made me eat it. You're the one that told me to do it. And I mean, it's who we're made up that way. It goes back to Adam. This woman you gave me.

Right. She's the problem guy. And so, and I'm glad we can laugh about it now, but I know people listening are maybe in that pitch of pain. And you guys can laugh today, but you had to go through a valley, a pit.

So Jill, let me come your way again. Let's frame that a little bit. What are these barriers? One obviously is the blame game. Speak to it.

Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that was so very helpful and I do write about it in your next steps is I was able to look at Mark through eyes of compassion. And that kept me there was plenty of blame at times.

Don't hear me wrong on that. But when I was able to see that he was acting out of his own hurt and his own confusion. That really helped me to resist blaming more than where I already was just naturally going because I realized he was he was personally struggling. You know, this was an identity challenge. This was him feeling lost from leaving ministry for 20 years. And so that was really helpful for me was to see him through eyes of compassion.

And that kept the blame at least at a lower level. OK, I get that. And that's helpful. Some women are saying you're crazy. I mean, seriously, because we're operating out of our flesh, I would say in that moment. And they're justifying their own. UnChristlike responses, right? It's hard.

Oh, I know we're going to get lots of people. And I mean, I will tell you, I can remember one particular night after Mark left the toilet overflowed on the second floor of our home and the water came down onto the main level and down into the basement. I did a lot of blaming that night. I'm sure I wouldn't do that on purpose, did you, Mark? He was gone.

OK, I just had a trap there. Yeah, he had left. And I was home with, you know, two teenage boys and I don't know how to fix, you know, plumbing. And I was really angry. And there was a lot of blame that went on that night. So without a doubt, you know, there was a fair share of me throwing blame his way, him throwing blame my way.

Let me ask Mark to jump in on that. I mean, your perspective on the blame game. Well, my reality was I was led by my flesh and I didn't understand that then. I totally get that now. But I was led by my flesh. I was following my flesh. And what was powerful from Jill is I saw a it was not an easy transformation for her, but it was an intentional decision on her part to love me well and to love me in a way that she had never done so.

And that was spirit led. And that kind of leads to the mismatched emotions, I think. And let me set it up this way. Once the affair is confessed, the guilty spouse begins to feel better. You know, you've got it off your chest, so to speak.

It's out in the open. That part of the hard road is done and you're feeling lighter, if I can say it that way. But the victim, the spouse that's been betrayed, they're just starting into that mess of how do I figure this out and what do I do and where do I go? Did you experience that dynamic in your relationship, the messy part? Like you were feeling better and you're feeling like, I don't know what I should do with you at this moment.

My arrogance and confidence rose off the charts. Yeah, I would agree with that, which was I'd never really seen that side of you, because I think the other dynamic that happened was you were passive, passive, passive, passive, passive until you said, I'm done and I'm out of here. And then I saw this side where there was no more passivity and I didn't even know what to do with that, which we see that in a lot of the couples that we coach and that we encourage and that we help in what we do now. Let me, because I understand that. Describe that though, Mark.

Why do men behave that way? We cocoon, we hide emotionally and we just let everything kind of go, okay, that's fine. And then the monster comes out, the confident monster. Right.

I think it does. I think that goes back to Genesis that we, when a man doesn't know what to do, he does nothing and that's not a good decision on his part. And so we coward and we hide and we think that we need to be silent. And it's really important that a man find his voice and not wait until that blow up. And it's a dynamic I've seen in couples where there is a strong woman.

Jill, you are a strong woman. Yes. Does that make it harder for a guy to express his voice? Yes, absolutely. Right.

It's kind of a rhetorical question, I guess. Absolutely. And that was... Is that because you would try and she would shoot you down or shut you off?

Absolutely. I would try to voice my thoughts or my opinions and then finally you go, ah, forget it. And so that was a place where I had to focus on my own growth.

I realized I had misused my strength and I needed to learn how to leverage it in a way that honored my husband in a way that didn't minimize his voice. And remember when we talked yesterday about that we went to lunches together? Right. Well, I was beginning to change the way that I was using my voice at those lunches. How so?

I mean, practically. He would make a statement and instead of squashing that statement and telling him what I would think, I would ask a question and ask further. And so I was drawing him out. I was using reflective listening. So what I hear you saying is this.

Did you know to do that? Was that formulaic or was it coming naturally? I had actually read a book that was very powerful for me. It was called The God-Empowered Wife. And it was a book for strong women and how strong women can. The funny thing is the subtitle, I think, is How Strong Women Can Help Their Husbands Become Godly Leaders, which is really.

It infuriated me. It's up to her to help you. But it was written to draw that strong woman in and want to read the book. Right. She addresses that.

She totally does. So I'm reading it and I'm applying it and I'm going I'm starting to use my strength in a different way. And so week after week, I'm making changes, which at first he goes, you're manipulating me. But I'm really I'm realizing, no, I have to change this again, whether our marriage makes it or not. I have to change this.

I have misused my strength. And that is so good for people to hear. And I think, again, today we want to concentrate on equipping the people that are kind of where you used to be. And in that context, Mark, yesterday you mentioned kind of your mentality at the moment was let's just get over. Let's get this done with. Let's keep moving. Let's get the divorce. Let's figure out what we're going to do with the kids. Now it's almost like typical male problem solving. You know, we've got to figure out who gets the kids when. But something pulled you back from that.

I'd say it was the Lord. Right. But explain why couples who have gone through this and are willing at least to have hope. Maybe again, we know trust is broken. But for that guilty spouse to commit to a long term recovery and not just go into problem solving mode and to relieve the pain by going through a divorce. You know, so often the data shows that when a divorce occurs, especially I'd see this data in light of men, you know, they then remarry and the very same problems crop up again because you're not dealing with the core issues.

It's you. It wasn't your first spouse. And now you've got the same problems in your second marriage or your third marriage.

And those typically don't go well either. So speak to that long term commitment. That's really the question. That transition that you made from let's just end this, end the pain. I've got this other thing going.

It's far better right now. Right. Right. But you pulled back and I give you, you know, kudos for that.

You did pull back and say, I'm going to commit to a long term process. Obviously, if I could say it eyeball to you, Jill deserves a lot of credit in this whole thing. Oh, absolutely. Because she was faithful. She was faithful. And then she stayed faithful to you. So man to man, I mean, that's part of it. But you deserve credit for pulling back.

And a lot of men wouldn't do that. No, they keep going. For me, the process of a long term commitment was more one foot in front of the other commitment. One day at a time.

One day at a time. And my first huge decision was surrender. I had made such a mess.

And as a man, we're fixers. And I realized there was not one thing I could do to fix this, which was a beautiful moment for me. Because it was the moment that God became so real that the only hope I had, which was abundant, was that God would fix this. That was his promise to me. And then the picture I had, in fact, on my phone, I have a picture of a road with a yellow line down the middle that I would take the hand of God, my dad, and walk on that yellow line. Dad, where are we going?

What do you want me to do? And part of my commitment to my family and to Jill was I met with every person who I knew I had hurt. I asked forgiveness. And I worked to make it right with my family.

Being in ministry, hundreds of people, I spent the whole next year just really working to clean up the mess that I had made as God led me into that situation. That's powerful. It really is. Yeah. And one thing I would add, you know, back to your question a little bit ago about the affair is now out in the open. It's off his chest, but the other spouse is now like reeling. You're just beginning to process.

Totally. And I think that is something that's not understood in affair recovery all the time. And that is that he knew what was going on for. In essence, it was a year total because so much of it started even before the physical affair. I didn't. And so what happens is now you have to go back and you have to relive and you have to reframe it.

So I'll give you a specific example. The summer that he started the emotional affair was my parents 50th wedding anniversary. And they wanted to gather the entire family at a beautiful place up in the Wisconsin Dells.

So we're all there and we're all enjoying this time. And he excuses himself every once in a while. And I think that he is taking care of his construction business back home. But I later learn he's having conversations with this person. And I learned that nine months later.

Right now, I have to go back and I have to go, wait, wait a minute. And I have to recognize you mean this is what was happening. So that happens over and over again when you're recovering from infidelity.

And to Mark's credit, he stayed steady through that. Yeah, because that is a lot to have to wade through. Well, this is your turn.

It is, if I could say it that way, it feels dark, but it's your turn to start. Yes. Your emotional response.

And I had to be steady and stable and not reactive. It does lead to the next question I had, which are the questions that the offended spouse needs answers to. Right.

How do you determine where to go with that? Because that can be a bottomless pit. It can be a arming up of the offended spouse so they can, you know, wail back at the one who had the affair. And, you know, again, we're always balancing our fleshly response from our spiritual response. We're at war within ourselves. But how did you guys manage the questions? You're touching on that, Jill. Yeah.

When was enough enough? Well, and I think I get asked that question a lot. I think it depends on your personal wiring. One of the things I talked about in the last program is that I'm a thinker. That means I deal in facts, I deal in data. I can gather data and not get as emotional about it.

If there is a woman who is a feeler, she's got to be careful about how much she asks. Oh, yeah. Because that's going to really, that can cause her... There's wisdom in that.

That's, I guess, the key point. You've got to be wise enough to know you need some reconciliation on data. You need some reconciliation, but there may come a point where you need to feel, I know enough, I don't need to know more. And I actually would say to myself, do I really need to know this question?

Like, I would think about it. And sometimes you ask questions from slightly different angles, too. You have to understand that. And that's where I think some couples go wrong in rebuilding trust is the offending spouse will go, when are you going to stop asking me?

You've already asked me that question. Well, you're on trial constantly. So let's figure this out.

Are we going to stay in court or are we going to move along? And that sounds horrible. I mean, you were the offender. Right. But I think as a surrendered man, you don't. My commitment as a surrendered man was to answer every question and to stay steady and to learn to love Jill through my answers and responses and not to get angry.

Yeah. I mean, you guys are both growing in this. That's what's so amazing spiritually. And isn't that the awesome gift of God that you're going to leave this earth so much better off than where you used to be?

In your relationship with Christ, in your relationship with each other. That's the beauty of this portrait. It's not the offense. That's ugly. That's horrible. Right. But God picks up the pieces and creates a masterpiece in your marriage.

I mean, it's awesome. You speak to this idea of the gift of accountability. So let's move through that.

You guys, you know, you're in a better place. What is the gift of accountability now? Well, I think an unhealthy view of accountability is that someone is there to police another person's life. And that's incredibly unhealthy. The gift of accountability is that I would stay. I would push information to Jill about where I was going, what I was doing, not out of defensiveness, but out of love. That is big. That's huge.

It was totally a brain changer for me. I had to make trips back to our home where both of our families lived and where this person that I had the affair with lived. And I would first ask Jill to go with me. Like, if I had to help my mom on the house, would you go with me? And if she couldn't go, then I always had in my back pocket somebody who would go with me.

And Carl, he was my go-to guy. Just a good friend. Good friend. Good for him. I did that so that for my family security, but also for myself, that I didn't want to have to answer questions about where I was.

I wanted to create a safety for my family and for me. I never had to ask him to do that. Right. And another good sign of change. And that's good.

Jill, speak to that. It was huge because he opened his phone up. He said, here's my phone. You have access to it. And that was different.

Yeah. Well, yeah, because it was locked down, especially after I found the first test. Computers were locked down.

Everything was locked down. And he gave me a master key to his life and said, I have no more secrets. That was very trust building.

Yes. It takes time because to rebuild trust, it's changed behavior over time. And so it was a consistent opening and that made all the difference in the world. Jill, you know, we've got only a few minutes left and I want to come back to both of you on some really important aspects of this. And that is forgiveness. I mean, we've touched on it, but we really got to hear from you particularly, Jill, obviously, the depth of that forgiveness. How do you find it?

Where did you go? And is it deep and real? Are you trying to just live, you know, what you're supposed to do? Here's what I learned, Jim, about forgiveness.

And I think it is something that is not as widely understood as it needs to be. Forgiveness isn't once and done. I didn't just forgive the affair. And then we moved on. I had to forgive dozens, hundreds of things.

I'll give you an example. I drove by a hotel that I learned that they had met at. OK, I drive by that hotel and I am grieved dagger.

Yeah. And I'm grieved. I'm grieved at the deception.

I'm grieved at the betrayal. And that day, as I drive by there, I have to go. I need to deal with this in my heart and I have to forgive the deception and the betrayal as it relates to that hotel.

But the next day, I drive by the hotel again. And that day, I am grieved at the financial mess that this made in our lives. And so I have to forgive the financial mess.

And so I think a lot of times we think that it's just this one time thing. It is you have to forgive layers and layers and layers and layers. So when those things raise up, you've got to deal with them in your heart then and there. And sometimes I would communicate that forgiveness to Mark. And sometimes that was just between me and God.

Sure, of course. Mark, let me ask you to pray for those couples right here at the end. Give that word to the Lord to use this program, to use the story God has given you and Jill to touch lives. Father, I pray right now on my heart is the couple that aren't even together.

And maybe they're hearing this program and they're weeping and angry and confused. Father, reach into their mess and the hand of a loving Father and just help lead them out of that mess. And Lord, pour out hope. Use this program to breathe life, redemption, direction. God, you, your grace, your love is abundant. Your mercy is endless. Lord, pour it out today. In Jesus name.

Amen. Mark and Jill, again, thank you for laying it out there. I mean, this is hard to do and you're moving down the road and the Lord's giving you this message now. You've got to keep coming back to the biggest trauma you've ever experienced and talking about it. So thank you for doing it.

Thank you for helping others see the better way to go. And Jill, thanks for capturing it in this little book, Your Next Steps. If you need a copy, get a hold of us. We'll get it to you. If you can help support the ministry so we can touch more lives, do that.

But we don't want, you know, a gift to be in the way. Just get a hold of us so we can get this booklet into your hands to help save your marriage. If you're at the end of your rope and you can say from your heart that you do believe God can work a miracle in your marriage, give us a call. There's a place that we can begin to restore it together.

Yeah. And last time we mentioned Hope Restored, where we provide intensive counseling over several days to hurting couples. Maybe there's been infidelity or so much conflict you just can't handle it anymore.

Or maybe you've just drifted apart. Learn how Hope Restored can transform your relationship and get in touch. And if you do, we'll also tell you about Jill's book, Next Steps, What to Do When Your Spouse is Unfaithful. Our number here, 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459.

Or stop by the episode notes and you'll find the links there. And coming up next time, Deborah Pigay offers some great encouragement to women in leadership. I want to encourage women who are already in the culture, who are already excelling, don't let the culture dictate your values and your priorities. You can have a career. You can have it all.

But I say all is what God wants. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. When a woman discovers her husband's struggle with pornography, she needs a practical plan. The latest book from Focus on the Family, Aftershock, by professional counselor Joanne Condy, will help you through the seven steps of self-care. And you'll learn how to deal with the emotions involved in the discovery of your husband's addiction. Let Joanne Condy's timeless wisdom give you hope even while you're in your own season of Aftershock. Learn more about Aftershock at focusonthefamily.com slash store.