Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally.
So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor, wherever you get your podcasts. Help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain because sometimes our culture teaches them it's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain. They stay immature. Actually embrace it, make it your ally. That's Dr.
John Townsend, and he's back with us again today on Focus on the Family, talking about how you can implement healthy boundaries with your children. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. You know, yesterday we talked about teaching kids to accept the consequences of their actions. I think most parents struggle with that.
Then we covered the strengths and weaknesses of gentle parenting and really defining boundaries and how we get on to a healthy Regular reinforced boundary approach to really help your child to mature and grow in the healthiest way possible. Today, we're going to talk about some key concepts, including the steps to helping kids develop their own sense of right and wrong, which, as we talked about yesterday with Dr. Townsend, no is actually a good thing for a child to learn. It starts to develop their identity, and you want that child in later teen years to be able to say no. And so, that's a good thing.
It's not an error if they're pushing back a little. But how do we do this constructively? It's going to be a great conversation. And I hope if you missed last time, get the Focus on the Family app so you can hear it and hear all the inventory here at Focus on the Family. Yeah, that app is available and free to you, and we hope you'll get that.
Dr. Townsend has co-written a book with Dr. Henry Cloud. It really is a classic. It's called Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children.
And we'll encourage you to get a copy when you contact us. John, welcome back to the program. Thanks, guys. You know, I was thinking when you read that. Part about Henry and I writing this, John.
It came about because all the boundaries work was working, and then people came along. A parent said, We'd like to help our kids with this boundary thing before they have the train wrecks and the pain that we had in our adult life.
So, can you write it in a more preventive level? But thank you to the parents who were asking for that. Yeah, that's so, so good. Let me start here. What does it look like for kids to learn to respect the boundaries of others?
Well, they don't start off that way because their life is, you know, it's about me, and mom and dad exist to serve me, and that's okay for a while. But sooner or later, you're going to be in a world of relationships, and they have to learn this. And there are some relational no's they have to learn. As young children, don't hurt someone. I mean, it's fundamental.
Don't trespass on someone's things, and especially don't punish another kid's no. If a kid disagrees, don't make them bad because they've got to have a choice. How do you do that?
Well, you have empathy for it because it's hard. Hard for them, but you correct them and you give them consequences where there's disrespect. Even if they don't like it, they have to learn that mom and dad don't like disrespect of themselves and other people. But here's another really important part. They'll learn to respect other people's boundaries when you Establish your own separateness as a parent.
For example, the child wants to do something and you've already played with them for a long time and now you want to, I don't know, do a crossroad puzzle. And the child comes up again and says, play with me. And sometimes the parent's tempted to say, well, I've got to be a good parent, even though I spent two hours here. I'll put my puzzle aside. The best thing to say is, No, I'm going to do a puzzle right now.
That's what I need to do. But you can play. And all of a sudden, the child's in a world where, oh, you're not always available when I always need you. I've got to respect that.
So insist on your own separateness as well as the child's. You know, we've had Dr. Ken Wilgus here. You might know Dr. Ken Wilgus, great guy.
He wrote the funniest book title, which was Feeding the Mouth That Bites You, How to Emancipate Your Teenagers into Adulthood. And it really is in this area that I'm about to ask you, and that's giving kids some age-appropriate freedom to help them separate themselves in a healthy way from the parent. For example, he would say, at some point, you let your 13, 14-year-old own their room. Yep. And his rules were you just don't have nothing can be stinky or rotting.
Hopefully we've taught you how to keep your room nicely, but that's it. And you hand it over and you don't take it back. Is that a good thing? That is so wise. It comes down to what in the book we call it, The Law of Sowing and Reaping.
Think about how we all learn as humans, not just kids. We learn when we reap what we sow. Look at freedom. How can they sow when they don't have a choice? You've got to have freedom to make a bad choice to sow so you can reap.
They have to be free to sow positive things or negative things, otherwise, there's no reaping and no learning and no growing. That's so amazing. Let's talk about unconditional love. You know, this one, I have this. banter in my own head when you're saying, I love you.
I love you so much. You're never going to know how much I love you. Put that down. If you don't respond, and it like totally communicates, my love is conditional. And I think, parents, we have this inner struggle going, Am I loving this child unconditionally, or am I putting all the conditions on it because they're not performing or behaving the way that I want them to?
Speak to that dilemma, and then what is healthy, real, unconditional love look like? Yeah, let's start with what that really is. Think about God. He doesn't, I don't know about you guys, but he hasn't answered all my prayers this year, but I know he loves me all the time. And so it doesn't.
Some people think that unconditional love is always feeling good feelings toward and Always gratifying the child. I feel good towards you. I'm always, that's love.
Well, that can be hate. You can make a drug act out of that.
So, love is really a stance of: I'm for you, and I want your best. And if we can change it from the feeling and gratification to it's a mental state that makes me want to do the very best for you, even if it's uncomfortable, that's unconditional love. I don't have to feel good feelings when my kid's screaming and yelling and causing a mess, but I shouldn't be harsh, but I should be direct, but I know I'm doing the surgery that's needed right now. Trevor Burrus: So unconditional love is: hey, I didn't kick you out of the house. And hate might be, I did kick out of the house too early.
Yeah. Instead of waiting for that. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole balancing feature of parenting. Let's hear a clip like we did yesterday. Let's hear a clip from a dad on setting boundaries.
My two sons are twenty four and twenty six years old, and they don't really help out with the bills or rent, and what little money they make is spent on drugs. My younger son is trying, but he sees his older brother getting away with stuff and he just follows in his footsteps. I don't believe it. My heart just sank to hear this man. Whoever you are, man, I'm so sorry.
I'll say a prayer. Let me provide a sort of a path here for this gentleman. who's kind of living a nightmare. Um you're going to need support. Whatever's going on in the house with two grown young men who were doing drugs and It's not spending it on the right things and that sort of thing.
You're going to need to get external support.
So don't do this on your own. Get a good church, a good Christian therapist. Get people around you who have the same values because for you to change this is going to take some time.
Now, number one, I think you're going to have to get, once you've got the support systems in, you're going to have to insist on a drug-free home. I mean, that's just you can't compromise on that. And there are going to have to be some rules that you'll probably need help with in constructing, such as: here's what will keep you in the house. For as long as Until you're ready to launch, because they do need to launch sooner or later. And here's what won't.
There are good counselors and therapists that can help you make a plan. You're going to need to chart a path for autonomy that your sons are not ready for.
So, I want you to start as. Stephen Covey says, with the end in mind. The end in mind is that they're out of your house. They can't be happy with that or fulfilled with that. Out of the house, autonomous, free, working somewhere, drug-free.
And so, what does it take to create that, get the long run in mind? That means some of them may need a coach or a counselor. They also may need to know some house rules that you're going to enforce, and they may need to have the consequences of you can stay here if you don't do drugs. If you can't, I'm sorry, you're going to be out of the house. And I've had to do that with many parents who said, well, what will they do?
Well, they'll probably sleep on a friend's couch for a while and eat pizza and then find out, gosh, it's better being at home like the prodigal son. But you're going to have to have the rules and enforce those. And all the same time, letting these young men know. that you love them even though they will say that you hate them, you're providing, you're providing experts, you're providing structure, you're providing a way and a path for autonomy and leaving and cleaving that they don't possess. John, you encourage parents in the book to consider pain a good experience.
It can be a good experience. For them to know the bottom. And you know, we all say this in the Christian community. You know, it's important for your children to go to a valley if that's where God needs to meet them. And, you know, one of the most...
I think challenging questions I ever received is Would you be willing to let God take your kids through that valley? I think that's the hardest prayer any of us can pray, but it's a good one. Yeah, and tell us why. Why is pain helpful?
Well, let's start with Hebrews 12. Where it says, all discipline seems painful, but it brings the peaceable fruit of righteousness. God's very clear and he's the being that created neuroscience and parenting in the first place. And we want our kids to live a life of being right, living the right life. And so pain teaches us things.
Now, we're not talking about the wrong kind of pain. We don't want to damage the child. We don't mind them being uncomfortable. Discomfort is very different than damage.
So evaluate if it's the right kind of pain that will help them mature and thrive. But yes, help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain because sometimes our culture teaches them. It's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain. They stay immature. Actually, embrace it.
Make it your ally. Learn to deal with a difficult teacher. Learn to deal with that bully. Learn to deal with a sport you haven't done or a course you haven't taken. And look what happens on the other end when you succeeded.
And so all of a sudden they realize pain is my friend, is my ally. Yeah, but it's again hard to. Stand there as a parent and allow that to happen. But you got to do your best to let God do His best. Yeah.
Right. And that's when we need community. Those parents who are like-minded, and you can call them and say, I'm so sad. My child's crying and they're discouraged, but it was a legitimate boundary and a consequence. And the parent goes, Stick with it, stick with it.
And if you tell your child, stick with it. That child takes that in, and when they're 30, they'll go, I've got a hard job, I've got a hard marriage. I can stick with it because I've done it before. It's good. It's the internalization.
John, let's play another question about boundaries. Hi, I have a question. My son is very energetic. likes to be active. like play sports and all these things, but I find it hard to get him to actually sit and listen.
He's six years old. And I was wondering what would be a good way to teach him the importance of listening and having. good listening skills. Yeah, and you're addressing this at the right time, too. Six is a great age to learn that.
And at six, especially boys, a lot of times girls, too. You're interested more in your activities, and you're interested more in what you have to say, and not what anybody else has to say. I would address this very directly with your son, just like any parent does. Here's how you clean your room. Here's how you set it for the table.
And I would say, I want to help you learn to listen because this is something that I think you're kind of challenged in, is it's going to be very important to you. And so you just tell them: this is how you have great relationships. This is how people like you better. This is where you learn things.
Now, Sometimes a six-year-old who's really into activities will just blow that off. But it's in there somewhere because you have to give them the framework first of why this is important. And the second thing is, you give them examples and say, When I was trying to tell you something about X, a movie we saw or something we did at church, and you kept changing the subject and talking about yourself, it didn't work between you and me, and you and I weren't that close. And all of a sudden, they realized, oh, this affects my relationships. And then.
Sometimes a child will say, Well, what do I do?
Well, teach them the basics of asking questions. Stop talking and then say, How are you doing? What did you think? How was your day? And teach them those basic questions that everybody's got to learn.
Three or four of them that can get somebody to open up. And then have them practice that with their friends. And all of a sudden, now they're the captain of the team.
Now, if none of that is working, that's when you have to say, In our home, we're going to need to have you talk and then listen, and talk and then listen. And if you can't stop talking, Sweetheart, we don't want to do it, but there might be a consequence for that because you talking all the time and not listening is kind of hard on the whole family. It's not good for you. But hopefully, it'll be done before you have to go to the consequence. But I've had parents have to do that: say, it's your turn to stop talking and start listening and make that a norm so they do it in the real life.
It's so funny. I'm laughing because when I was a child, my mom's best friend, and we considered her family part of our family, my mom's best friend. Penny. And I think I was just talking way too much. Heaven knew that I would be sitting behind a microphone someday.
But she said to me, she just turned to me. And she said, Jimmy? You've got diarrhea of the mouth. Talk about making an impact on a child. I still remember that.
I know where I was standing. Word pictures were helpful. When she said it, I was, and you know, my immediate response, I just went quiet. 'Cause I thought, oh, I didn't know. But I, I mean, to this day, I think it centered me on being able to be quieter so I can actually hear the person across the table from you.
Wasn't that something? But it. You know, somebody might look at that and say, that was harsh. But it did have a positive impact in my life. Let's change that word from harsh to direct.
Yeah, okay. Because every time.
Sometimes in our culture it's sort of like if someone's direct they're mean and harsh.
Well, it feels harsh because you've never heard that before. But it's just direct by a caringwarm person. That's less baptism. Because our culture is all about tolerance of everything, even parenting. Like, you got to tolerate your child's behavior.
No, you don't.
So I don't know. I think back on it now, I laugh because, you know, who would have known I would end up in communication? It's richly ironic, isn't it? But anyway, so let me ask you this. In the book, you describe three realities.
Let's spend a little time here and speak to the three realities of setting boundaries. Yeah, it's very simple. And sometimes since parenting is so complicated, we get. into details that we don't need to get to. Yeah.
If you can remember these three things that'll really help, is first, There's a problem and your child's not perfect. Your child's not perfect. And it's just the way it is. And if you can say that and realize, you know, we're born into the world in an imperfect world, and my child needs training, and my child needs growth, you're okay. That makes us all relaxed to know my child's not perfect.
They're just a work in progress. But next, it's. Plug in. You need relationships. It takes a church.
It takes families. It takes neighbors. Don't do this alone. Not even with a great spouse. We need other people's perspective and strength.
And then the big one, I think, besides that, is grow in your own character and your own boundaries. When you have your own boundaries, your child's living around a grown up who can make hard decisions, do the right thing and succeed, and they see that and they want that. Connecting that one to the first one, I think one of the things I think I did well was to show my boys that I'm not perfect. You know, we know the child isn't perfect, and sometimes in parenting, we can reinforce that all day long, you know. But what helps, I think, what really helped for my sons was when I could confess that I'm not perfect.
I made that, I blew that. I remember one time saying to Trent after. You know, I think I disciplined him for something, and it was probably too much energy. And I said to him, I'm sorry, I really reacted to that in a way that I shouldn't have reacted. And he had the biggest smile on his face.
He was probably eight. And I said, Why are you smiling like that? He goes, I didn't know parents had to apologize. Wow. Wasn't that a light bulb moment?
What a light bulb. And it was a good thing. And I think maybe, you know, you see these. Lessons that you lay down for your kids. That was probably one of the brighter lessons that I was able to get to.
Well, the funny thing about that, Jim, is we think it's a big deal that we let them know we're not perfect. They know. That's true. They've been watching. They've just been watching.
They're just joining my therapy today with doctor John Townsend. They're just waiting to see you. Are they going to ever admit what I already know? And that's and what you did I love that rupture and repair dynamic of once you know you've screwed up, how fast can you repair it? And kids do get that eight-year-old smile like, okay, things are okay.
Don't wait. Do it quickly. Yeah, that's so, so good. In that context of the third of the realities, there's a concept in there. You said time does not heal all.
We tend to use that so freely in our culture. Time will take care of it. We lose a loved one. Time will heal that. It's partially true, isn't it?
It may not be all the way true, but we'll look at it like this. When you go to your doctor with a bacterial infection, does she say, well, time's going to heal this? No. She says it's going to take time. Time is a necessary but insufficient condition.
You must have it. It's not enough, because there's two other elements. It's time plus grace plus truth will do anything. Grace is the love of God, the love of other people, the support, and information, truth, principles, structures, these sorts of things. Time will do it as long as there's grace and truth involved.
Yeah. You know, for our parents that are in the middle of work and life and orchestrating all of that, and let's not talk about the in-laws and Christmas and Thanksgiving and all the stuff that happens throughout the year. You want me to do what? Doctor Townsend? Teach boundaries to our kids.
Make the pitch for why doing this actually saves you so much work later. There's a why here. And the why is because it's not now, it's about the future. The family, and you guys know this better than anybody, the family is an oven. Where you take this little bitty being and then you take it through all these experiences and these growth things, and then they come out, hopefully, a functional, loving adult.
They can love, they can work, their life is in place. And that's what our job is about. And so, if you can tolerate the tough thing about the. Attitude problem now, or the disrespect, or the chaos, and think I'm making something later that'll be good for her and good for me. The parent's job is to bring the future into the present.
And say, We're doing these things because we want you to be a strong person, a happy person, and in control person. You know, one of the things, and we've talked with Dr. Kevin Lehman, and you know him well as a friend. You know, the birth order, personality, temperament must play into this a bit. And we saw that in our own children.
You know, you think you're the same family, but each child is unique. And so we had the strong-willed child, then we had the more passive child. And you do have to, I would think, and maybe you disagree with this, I would think you have to kind of adjust these approaches. Of boundaries to the temperament of your child a bit. Not in the concreteness of them, but maybe in the way they're delivered.
Or how would you answer that question about how I deal with the type of child I have, the strong-willed child and the passive child, just as an example? Absolutely, I totally agree with that. The basics are the basics. There are house rules that we will always keep, and we will. Stick to, but you have to customize it according to the temperament of the child, which was just built in and baked in from the DNA.
And when you do that, everybody wins.
So it's the communication style, is how direct you are, is how much you listen. As long as the basics are working and you're doing it their way, everything works. And I think it's so good because, again, with my oldest son, it's very linear for him, very logic-driven. He just wants to know. I remember saying to him, once he had his license, we had a midnight curfew, and I said to him, You know, be home by midnight.
And he said, Why? And I said, one, it's the time limit. And two, nothing good happens with teenagers after midnight. And he said to me, Do you have empirical data to support that? That was exactly what he said.
And my other son, who's much more feeler. I had the same chat with him two years later and he said, okay, Dad, I think you're right. Very different responses, right? But that's the point: that you have to know your child, which takes a bit of work, and then apply those principles accordingly. Just like you'd like to be treated.
Yeah, well, there you go. I think that's in scripture, isn't it? Treat others. Yeah, we get it. John, this has been great.
Thank you so much for a lifetime of learning when it comes to neuroscience and therapy and psychology, but mostly the biblical application of this. And you've said it a couple of times here: that the Lord is the creator of neuropathways, and we're finding that more and more. And I just love the way you blend that, first as a Christian, but secondly, as a professional who works on the mind. I mean, these are important things to know, and that's the goal of us as parents: to, I hope, to create the healthiest adult children that we can, because in that, we're honoring the Lord with our responsibility. Responsibility as the parent, right?
Aaron Ross Powell, yes, that's true, Jim. And I've just got to thank you for all the years of keeping the mission and vision straight. I can't tell you how many parents I have referred to you whose lives in parenting were saved over the years because. There was a message, there were skills, there was help that nobody else is putting out.
So, thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Townsend. It really helps when people like you sit at the microphone here and we can talk about it together. And that's the invitation.
If this has sparked awareness for you or you know somebody that needs this book, get a hold of us. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry. And together, we're helping more people. Your donations allow us to serve parents who are struggling. One listener said this: I have learned so much from you and love the biblical parenting truths you encourage us with.
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Donate today, get a copy of Dr. Townsend's book, Boundaries with Kids, when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, or you'll find the links in the show notes. While you're at our website, be sure to sign up for our age and stage newsletters. You'll get a free weekly newsletter straight to your inbox, specifically geared for the age and stage each of your children are in as they grow. It's incredible information.
It's free, and you'll find the link on our website. And, Dr. Townsend, you're involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Well, it's the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California.
So, for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We're a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We've got three programs: you can get a master's or certificate in counseling, or in organizational leadership, or an executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a PhD in counseling. And actually, Forbes magazine made us the number one remote PhD in counseling.
So, we're real happy about that. Yeah, it's great. Hundreds of students. They're getting great jobs. We're at the bottom third of expensive schools like ours, and we have these great guest experts, people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lincione.
There's a person named Jim Daly who speaks with our students who's very well. It's always fun to talk to the students.
So, yeah, we're at TownsendInstitute.com.
Well, it's so fun to hear what God's doing, John, and plan to join us next time as we hear from Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He'll be sharing how we can trust God even when he doesn't seem to be answering our prayers. It's because the Father said no to the Son, you have to drink the cup. That is the basis of our salvation.
And if I could shout this to everyone who is listening, I would say this, that God may be doing greater things through unanswered prayer. Than he is through Answer. The entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup.
But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally.
So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pasture to Pasture, wherever you get your podcasts. Mm-hmm.
