What happened to the man that I married? He was so affectionate. We talked for hours and he loved to make me laugh. I wish he were a better father and spiritual leader. He never listens to me.
It's hard for me to respect my husband right now. It's not unusual to feel disappointed or let down by your spouse, but how does that color your daily interactions? We're going to talk about that today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller. You know, John, when Gene and I did our premarital counseling, which is a good thing to do, by the way, if you're in that spot, do premarital counseling. But we were like so in love.
And we were saying, we're so much alike. Isn't it crazy how much alike we are? And then, of course, we got married. And then like 18 months in, we're going, we're not very much alike, are we? And what happens as an illustration with our marriages is we learn that those different things begin to irritate us.
And whether it's the proverbial toothpaste squeeze at the middle rather than the end, or night owl, morning person, or whatever it might be, these things. can grow into irritants.
Now, those are the lighthearted ones, but then you add the emotional disconnection with some couples and you just stall and you decide not to put the effort in anymore. Even for us as believers, and we should know better, but we're human and we fail at that at times. And we just stop tending the garden and the weeds grow. And today we're going to talk about some really important things of tending that garden of your marriage and making sure that both husband and wife are pouring in so that. You can have an amazing marriage in Christ.
Well, we're glad to have Dave and Ann Wilson with us to unpack this topic and go deep on the importance of that communication and keeping it good. Dave and Ann were the founders and pastors at Kennington Community Church, and Dave was chaplain for the Detroit Lions football team. In the past several years, they've been hosting Family Life Today, a fellow sister, I guess, radio show and podcast to help families. We're going to hear about a book that Ann has written and Dave has contributed to called How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. I want to say, Dave, what did you contribute?
Go ahead. Not much, I'll tell you that. Yeah, well, before we get going, let me just say we've got copies of the book here at the ministry, and you'll find the details in the show notes. Ann and Dave, welcome back to Focus. It's so good to be here.
Yeah, it's good to have you here. You guys are in Orlando now, right? Yeah, Family Life moved. Last time we were here, we were in Little Rock.
Now we're in Orlando. It's pretty nice. It was so funny. Bob LePine, who co-hosted with Dennis Ray. I remember you came up with somebody came up with that idea on April Fool's Day that we opened your show and they opened our show.
And people, I mean, people were like, what? I thought I got focused on it. We had a lot of radio operators thinking I got the wrong show loaded. I thought that was a great trick. It was fun.
That was a lot of fun. And let me start with you. This, you know, this book title could be very intimidating for wives, particularly. I mean, when you look at it, how to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. And let me just see the hands of the women listening or watching on YouTube.
Raise your hand. And, you know, I think you're aiming this, obviously, at wives, but it really applies to both husbands and wives and how we treat each other. Exactly. And that's what it gets down to. In that context, when you're looking at it, what do you think that overarching theme is?
I got to be very careful here. My experience has been. I know. You know, wives tend to want to make us the best husbands we could be. That's it.
Yeah. Husbands are probably feeling like, why do you keep tinkering with me? Love me the way I am. But you fill in the blanks. Is that kind of the battle?
That is exactly. I think when we get married, it's exactly what you said, Jim. Like, he's amazing. I love him. I love everything about him.
That lasted about a week. No, it lasted about six months. And then you're like, oh, there's things in him that I could help. Make him better.
So this becomes a project. I'm like, oh, he's better. Picks her up for. And so I would see these things in Dave and think, oh, you don't realize this, but you do X, Y, Z, and you could do it better like this, not even thinking. I'm disappointed.
I want to change you. I'm thinking I'm helping you. Let me ask you that, and I'll refer to it. I don't mean to offend any wife, obviously, but that blind spot, if I could call it that, not hearing the way that you're coming across, thinking this is productive, when in fact, you know, most of us husbands, we're little boys at heart. And if we feel shamed, We kind of pull back.
Yeah. You know, we go into our cocoon. Yeah. Because we don't like shame. Right.
We're doing the best we can, and it's not measuring up. I'm not good enough for you. All those things that trickle through our mind. Like, you know, the easiest thing here to do is just not talk. Because every time I say something, I'm getting it wrong.
That's exactly what I did. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure I realized it, but I withdrew. And some of that withdrawal was I poured into my ministry. I was gone a lot more than I probably should have because out there I felt like they thought I was good.
I come home. I thought she doesn't think I'm good. I'll see you later. I'll go back there where they think I'm pretty good. I think a way to take us into that is a story because I thought I was helping Dave.
If you would have asked me, are you critiquing Dave? Like, no. I don't yell at him really. Right, it's in a calm voice I say these things. Yes, exactly.
And so, well, not always. We were asked to speak at a mom's a preschooler group at our church. It was when our kids were all in elementary school.
So I'm like, oh, Dave, you should go. You're the pastor. They're going to love it if you come.
So Dave's like, yeah, I would totally do that. And then I said, what do you want to talk about? He goes, I don't know. Let's just wing it. Which I'm like, okay.
I like your style, Dave.
Okay. That means I wasn't prepared.
So we get up there. We're sitting on stools, and Dave gets super animated. He starts standing up, he's pacing, and he goes, Women, I don't even get, I don't think you know what it's like for us as guys. Because as little boys, we usually have someone cheering for us, saying, You're great, you're good at this. He said, And then we get older, and we have a coach or a teacher that are saying, Oh, you're really good at this, and they're cheering for us.
And he said, I played college football, so I've got fans like Dave Wilson, you're the man. I'm sitting on this chair thinking, Huh, I've never thought of that. And I've never said it quite like this. It's coming out, and I'm like, oh, this is exactly how it feels. And then I said, and so then I meet Ann, and basically she says, of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson, you're the man.
And now I'm like, This is cool. Oh yes, I do think The man, that is, this is really good. And so then I said, so she's cheering for me. And then I said, so then we get married. And after a few years, I find I walk in the door and all I hear is boo.
And I did just like that. I go, boo, boo. And she's on stage. Yeah. And I look over because I'm at the front of the stage.
She's sitting back there. I go, boo. And I turn. I look. And she, I mean, I've never said this in our home.
I've never said it out loud. I actually was like, this is exactly how it feels. This is exactly. And so I thought, this is good. I'm helping these women.
And I saw her face. I'm like, I am a dead man. When we get this car, this is not going to be good. And I was, man. We got the car.
Yeah. And let me interject here for, you know, that wife that is thinking. Wow, what did What was the revelation when you're hearing that? What were you feeling? I'm thinking he's out of his mind.
It's crazy. I'm like, I don't do that. And so we get in the car, and I don't even know how we ended, but I got in the car, I looked at him and said, What was that? And he goes, I don't know. It just came out.
I was like, that came from God. That's what that was. Ooh, that was even bold. No, he didn't say that. I didn't say that.
I felt like it finally came out exactly how men. And I was talking for men, not just this guy. I was talking about a lot of high school. And so I leaned in and I said, You think I boo you? I am helping you.
And he said then. And I said, I literally looked at it and said, is it working? I'm like, no. Ooh. No, it's not.
And that's why I have to say it more often and sometimes louder because you obviously aren't hearing what I'm saying.
So that was a long drive home. No, but you're touching on something that's so true. And, you know, Gene and I experienced this too. And I think most couples, if we're honest, I want to speak for you, John and Dina, but I'm just sitting here listening. This is such an interesting dynamic that it's funny because it's that.
You know normal.
Well, what ended up happening is I asked God, I vented to God, first of all, can you believe that, Lord? Like, how terrible is that? And then, after the end of that venting session, I said to God, I prayed after I got home, by myself on my knees, and I asked God the question: God, do you think I boo, Dave? I'm downstairs praying at this moment. But I felt in my heart that conviction of the Holy Spirit of.
I felt like he was saying, start paying attention to what you think about him and start paying attention to the words that you're saying. And that was a big revelation for me because I did start keeping track. Like, I am continually negative about him with my thoughts. I think it starts there. And then, and I started, I realized I'm seeing all the negative in him.
And I'm not saying the good. And here's what I thought. When I felt like God said, I want you to cheer for him. This is so prideful, but I thought. If I cheer for him, he'll think I'm happy and satisfied.
And then it will enable him to stay in this kind of not great place, which sounds so messed up, but that's why I didn't cheer for him. And I also thought everybody's cheering for him. He doesn't need that from me. He thinks he's great anyway, which is another thing that's really messed up. I had no idea the power that I carried as a wife.
He needs it from me more than anybody else. And I had no idea. That is really well said. And I think that's the, yeah, if you were to look at our emotional gas tank, I don't know about you, Dave, or John, but I mean, your wife is the one that gives you nine-tenths of the gas in that tank. It's not, it's not the stage accolades.
I mean, for me, like that, people will say, oh, Jim, that was a great speech. That was so insightful. It just bounces off of me. And what matters the most to me is what does Gene think about it? You know, and that's the right thing, but it's also a very cutting thing.
That's not wielded. I came home one night on a fall weekend for me back in the day when I was the Lions chaplain. I would preach twice on a Saturday night and go down to the team hotel down in Detroit, do chapel for the team.
So give another sermon, basically, come home, sleep, do three more preaches Sunday morning, and then go to the game and be on the sideline. And we probably lost. And so then I come home. A different era for the different era.
Now it's awesome. Why am I not the chaplain? I guess the new chaplain did it. But I'll never forget this one night. I crawl into bed at like 11:30 and I just make this comment to Ann, and I'm exhausted.
All I want to do is go to sleep. And I said, Man, I'm getting a lot of critiques lately on my sermons. And back then, we had these little cards that people were supposed to write prayer requests on. They wrote critiques on, you know, in pencil and no name.
So they're anonymous. But I was getting some negatives. And so I just say that as I'm crawling into bed. And her response was... This isn't power.
It's just what you said, Jim.
Well, what had happened was I felt like God was starting to give control of my life, my thoughts, my words. And so I felt like God was saying, pay attention to your words. And I started asking myself the question: Should I say this? Whatever comes to my head. That was the first question.
Yes, should I say it? Because I'm a verbal processor. Should I say it? Asking God, should I say this? And then if He gives me the green light, When should I say it and how should I say it?
So Dave made that comment as I was getting into bed. I asked, and here's what I thought. This is what I thought, and I would have said it generally. I thought, Well, if you had spend more time on your sermon prep and being in the word, your sermons would be way better. I would have said that naturally.
And so I asked God, God, should I say that? No. No. And then I prayed this prayer. God should I say anything.
And then this thought came to my mind and I said it I can't imagine what it's like to be you. Like you have thousands of people depending on your walk with God. What a weighty thing to carry. And then there was silence, and then Dave leaned in, hugged me, and whispered in my ear You are my life. Wow.
But I put a plant on the stage because I thought I need women to understand the power that we carry and how this affects our men. And so I had a plant on the stage. I said, This plant is like our men. You know, we're like, This is the one I want to marry. Look at him.
He's green and lush. But then we're married a while and we say, Oh, look, he's got a brown leaf. And it's my job to get rid of that brown leaf.
So we get our little scissors and we prune it a little bit. And then we're married even longer, like, there's all kinds of leaves. And it's my job to fix him.
So we see all those flaws and we get the hedge clippers out now. And we're just cutting down everything because you're not romantic. You don't talk anymore. All you want to do is watch ESPN.
So we're telling them and our kids, we're just chopping away to the point where there's a stump of a man left because we've cut all of these great leaves off of him. And the first time I did that, it was at our church at a thing that we were doing. And there was this couple sitting in the auditorium. Everyone had left. Except for this couple, probably in their 80s.
Oh my. You guys, it makes me. Teary thinking of it, because there's a man who's sitting there leaned over. He's crying and the tears are just plopping on the floor and his wife's beside him. I walk up to them.
I said, what's going on? And she said, I don't know. Ever since you did that plant chopping thing, he's been crying. And he lifted his head and he points to the stump of the plant. He said, that is me.
Wow. And she said, I had no idea. I really thought I've been helping him all these years. Wow. Wow.
And let me ask you at this point, because that is a super tender point. Think of that marriage. They probably were married 50 years. Yes. They were.
Chop, chop, chop. I can only imagine there's one million women listening right now that are saying, yeah, you don't know my husband. I know. He deserves that pruning. And there is a justification.
And there may be a line at which there's things that need to be talked about. How do you counsel somebody, a woman, a wife, who's saying, but Anne, Bob is a horrible person? Just speak to that reality as well, because I want to give some relief, some oxygen to women who are really struggling in their marriage because their husbands are terrible. And I would say too. If you're in an abusive situation, if your husband is abusive and it's not a safe place to live, you need to get yourself safe, get out of the home with your children.
It's the most loving thing you can do. I'm talking about a generally good-willed guy. You know, he wants to have a good marriage, he's just not sure how to go about it. And so, but what I've had so many women come up to me because we've been talking on this for years, and they'll come up and say, You don't understand. There is nothing to cheer.
There is nothing that I can see that I can say, hey, good job. Right. And I get it. I said, I know that that's how it feels right now. And I've been to that place where all I can see is the negative.
But you married him because you saw something. And so ask God to show you what is that something. And God sees something great in your husband. He does. He's made in the image of God.
And so call out the things. Ask God, God, show me the greatness because I'm not seeing it. Show me anything. And when we started this, I couldn't just start this new path. Like, oh, Dave, you're amazing.
I thought, Lord, I, I. I can't lie. I'm not going to lie.
So, how can I start small? And I started small by saying, Thank you. Hey, hun, thanks for bringing in the garbage cans.
Now, this is, and I think so much a part of me has been pride. Here's why I didn't thank him before.
Well, I do everything around here. Who thanks me for that? You know? Yeah. And so it just started out small.
Thanks for hey, thanks for doing whatever. That's a good way to start.
So I gotta say, when she first started doing it, I thought she was lying. Yeah, I look at her like, because I mean, one day at the dinner table, we had three sons, they're all married now, but they were maybe middle schoolers at the time. She said, Hey, before we eat, I just want to say something to dad. She just turns to me and goes, Hey, thanks for working so hard. You provide for this family this meal.
I really appreciate it. And the boys are like, Can we eat? You know, it's like, and she only did that. But you're looking for the things that are true. Yeah, you're a good man, you're a good husband, you're a good provider.
I really appreciate that. And I remember looking at her, and I knew right behind her on the kitchen hutch was, you know, love and respect. And, you know, all the books that tell this, and I'm like, she's doing what's in the book, but guess what? And men know this. My chest was like starting to pop.
Pop out like, I am a good man. I didn't say anything, but it felt so life-giving. I was like, wow, look how that makes me feel. And here's what I realized. And this is true for women as well.
Men are not motivated by critique. Either are women. They're motivated by affirmation. You affirm your man. He's gonna become a better man.
One guy said you put a crown on him, he becomes a king. I feel that same passion. Part of it is I have three sons and I have four grandsons. And I'm watching the culture. And I'm thinking, our great men are losing their voices now.
It's a sad day when we don't want these good men. And I'm looking at our grandsons thinking, who are the examples? I want him to rise up and to be the man God has called him to be. Not realizing back in the day, is part of that. Being called up into the man that God wants him to be is our job as women.
I'm a strong leader, strong woman. Yes, she is. Yes, she is. And so, when Dave and I started speaking for the weekend to remember for family life, I remember getting to Genesis 2 when it talks about how God made Eve to be a helper suitable for Adam. And I was like, oh, see, I was a new follower of Christ.
Why do I have to be the helper? Why, you know, why don't I get a little, why don't I get a helper? I thought the little helper. And so it took me a while, but I love Christy McClellan's teaching on the helper suitable. She's gone into the Hebrew of what that looks like.
That word helper, it felt like this menial task, or we're helping to complete our husbands. But it also is this word, it's a powerful word. It's that word is Azer. Which, when it comes back to the scripture of even Deuteronomy 33:7, Psalm 20, when it, like, listen to this, this is Moses' verse, his Psalm. It says, Hear, O Lord, the voice of Judah, and bring him into his people.
With your hands, contend for him, and be a help, a help. That's the word, Azer, against his adversaries. That word, help, is the word referred to God coming to help the people of Israel. That's a word that's powerful. But that word Kenedgo actually means helper suitable.
Kenedgo means toe to toe. That the woman was designed to stand toe to toe. And I remember Christy McClellan saying, she's a Hebrew culturalist, so she knows the culture. And she was in Israel and she asked a rabbi who was in his 70s, Rabbi, what do you think that word Kenedgo means? Because it's never used in scripture again.
And he said, Christy, I think that God knew that there was an enemy in the garden, and it would take the man and the woman, linking arms, standing toe-to-toe, side to side, back to back, to defeat the enemy. That they couldn't defeat him apart or alone. They would need each other to defeat the enemy. And it's exactly what you're saying. And so then when we were doing a broadcast with Family Life Today, and we had a bunch of scholars in the room, a lot of people, theologians with doctorates, and I asked them the same question.
You know, those conversations. Yeah, those guys. We don't know those guys. Guys, what do you think it means to be the helper suitable? And they're very fluid.
Dr. Jeff Myers, I don't know if you're in the room. Yeah, Jeff, we know Jeff. He's in the room and he makes this comment that Ann ended up putting in the book. And I never heard a guy say this like this.
He said, I really believe Azer Conegdo means when the man looks in his wife's eyes, he sees the man he can become. And the room just got quiet because it's almost like often we look in her, like I felt for many years, I look in her eyes and I see disappointment. I'm not the man she thought I was going to be and I'm letting her down. And I sort of pulled back. I look in her eyes now and we've been on a journey over decades.
She is, she makes me, I see how great I can be through and now. She's not disappointed. She's cheering. And again, it didn't take place in a week or a month or even a year. It took place over years, but she affirms and believes me and I'm a better man.
And that, I think, God said, this is what can happen. Both ways, by the way. You know, it isn't just the woman to the man. It's both ways. You're both cheering for you.
If you understand the power God's put in your thoughts and your words, you can literally bring life to your man and to your woman. I think you're right. Women, if we go ahead. Of our men, and just like, yeah, they're, you know, they're losers, they can't, they're not doing anything. We're gonna lose these great men.
And I look at Dave like he's one of the most gifted, he's amazing. But when I'm constantly saying the negative, he's gonna stay at that level. But when I call him and say, this is who you are, these are your gifts, I think he's wondering. Really? 'Cause I don't feel bad.
Yeah. No, it's so true. That intentionality is so critical, and we're right at the end of day one. But let's come back next time, we're going to pick up. But let's end for.
That wife that needs like a one, two, three step process.
So she's going, wow, that's been me. I haven't been intentional about doing that work. And for the wife that's saying, Jim, why is it all on my shoulders? I'm not saying that. It's that sensitive, isn't it?
I know. Men have plenty of work to do, we get that. But for right now, hearing from Ann, who's written the book, I mean, give us those insights to that intentionality, the need to think like you did. Don't say that until I think about it. What are the two or three things that that wife could do today that'll be different and start to make that turn for their marriage?
I think the greatest thing that I did Is that I got on my knees and said, God. I can't do this. Evidently, I've been failing at how I'm trying to love Dave. I thought I was doing a good job, but I'm not. And so, God, I give you my life again.
I just re-surrender all of myself to you. It's Romans 12:1. You know, to lay your life down as a living sacrifice.
So, that's the first step. God, I give you my life. I don't know how to do this, I don't know where to go with it, but I know that you do. And so, I'm going to follow you. Teach me.
And then I know this sounds crazy, but the thing that's changed me the most is being in God's Word. It reminds me who God is and who I am in Christ. I don't have to prove it to Dave, I don't have to get my satisfaction from him. I already have it from our loving Father. And so, it's kind of a renewal of your own faith because you're not going to find life through your husband.
It's not going to happen, and you will be dissatisfied. But through Jesus, I know it sounds so pat answer-ish, but it's not. It brings us life. And then I would say just that prayer: God, it's Romans 12:2. Don't be conformed by this world.
Be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
So the next step would be: God, start renewing my mind and show me the greatness in my husband.
Well, great steps. And what a great book: How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell At Him. I love the title. Most women, hey, let me just say to the guys, don't lay this on your wife's pillow. You know, just a little coaching advice there.
Don't pick it up. I'm getting this book for my wife. Find a better avenue to do that. But maybe listen to this broadcast together as a way of starting to our podcast. But thank you for that vulnerability.
Thanks for being with us. I love it. You guys, I think that honesty is so refreshing coming from people that are kind of in the business, right? Thank you. That we should know better.
But we don't. We're all doing this together. And I so I'm so refreshed by that. Thanks for being with us. We'll come back.
We'll pick it up there. And in the meantime, get a copy of this book. And as we often say, for a gift of any amount, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you. You for making a monthly pledge and a one-time gift, same thing. According to our research, approximately 1% of our listeners and viewers contribute financially to focus.
Imagine how much more impact we could have together if that simply went to 2%.
So, if you're capable of skipping that latte today, send us that $5 or $10 and help transform people's lives. Yeah, we really need to hear from you, especially during the summer months here where giving tends to be down a bit.
So, call today, especially if you've never contributed to the work of Focus on the Family. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family: 800-232-6459. Of course, online, you can donate and request Ann's book. We'll have the links in the show notes. And by the way, get in touch with us if we've touched on something that is really kind of sensitive for you.
If you're struggling in your marriage, we do have caring Christian counselors, and it'd be a privilege for us to give you. you a call back and have one of them offer you a free over-the-phone consultation to kind of figure out where things are at and what are some positive steps moving forward. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with David Ann Wilson and, once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your marriage can be redeemed even if the fights seem constant, even if there's been an affair, even if you haven't felt close in years.
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