Gearing Up for a Post-Roe America

Welcome to Family Policy Matters, an engaging and informative weekly radio show and podcast produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, this is John Rustin, president of NC Family, and we're grateful to have you with us for this week's program. It's our prayer that you will be informed, encouraged and inspired by what you hear on Family Policy Matters. And that you will feel better equipped to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state and nation. And now here is our host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy Devitt Griggs. Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters. For nearly a half a century, tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of Americans have peacefully come together in our nation's capital every January to stand up for life.

This January, the mood at the annual March for Life was markedly more upbeat and for good reason. The U.S. Supreme Court is currently considering a case that could potentially be a major turning point in abortion policy here in the U.S. Sue Lieble serves as state policy director for the Susan B. Anthony list. Sue Lieble, welcome to Family Policy Matters.

Hello, thanks for having me. Well, the U.S. Supreme Court is considering a potentially landmark pro-life case. What is the question being considered in the Dobbs case and what's at stake?

This is a great question because I think for some it may be it may seem confusing on its face. The case is out of Mississippi in 2018. The state of Mississippi passed a bill that would limit abortion at 15 weeks, something we've been waiting for really since Roe was decided in 1973. And the question is, can a state limit abortion?

Does it have the jurisdiction? To limit abortion prior to when a baby is viable, which means a baby can live outside the womb. Now you have seen a lot of states pass heartbeat bills or even the 15 week bill or 12 week bill or whatever. All of those on their face have never been upheld in court because the baby is not viable at six weeks or 10 weeks or 15.

So the question really is it's a much broader question than the case itself. And the question is, can a state limit abortion prior to viability? And if the answer is yes, it will just destroy Roe versus Wade. So what this will also mean is it will return it back to the people of the state, which is where it came from before the United States Supreme Court overreached in 1973. And so for the first time in almost 50 years, we'll have the opportunity to pass ambitious laws at the state level. It's possible that they'll overturn Roe.

It's possible. That bill upholds 15 weeks, it's possible they'll do something else. But this is the key question on the table.

And why now? Why is this a time that they would potentially consider this? Well, that is a great question. And actually, you know, the court can be very unpredictable. And so we're not sure why they do what they do. But what is extremely obvious is that since 1973, we have not gone along graciously to this states are still in fact, it's heating up even more lately in the last few years, heartbeat bills, 15 week bills, discrimination against babies with Down syndrome and things like that.

That's before viability. All of these things states, states are doubling down and pushing and pushing. So it's not going to get settled anytime soon. So they're going to have to take something because all of our courts are getting globbed up with all these cases and states just aren't backing down. The other thing we know and of course, we're very excited about it's no secret that that under President Trump, he was able to appoint three conservative Supreme Court justices.

And so we feel like this is the best shot we've we've had in quite some time. It's the best court we can we could go to in quite a long time, if ever since Roe. So we don't know how the court will rule. Did we get some indication, though, of what the justices may be thinking during oral arguments that were given back in December? It's still possible for justices to change their mind.

We know that they take pre votes just secretly amongst themselves and they get to lobby each other and and go back and forth. But on December 1st, we felt that those oral arguments went very well. And we were we're cautiously optimistic, even even the Chief Justice noted how extreme our US abortion laws are. So a lot of good information came out. The questioning was good and solid. And even like I said, the Chief Justice mentioned how extreme our laws are. So I think we got the point across pretty well.

And so that gives us a lot of hope. When do we expect a ruling? Probably this summer. In the past, the court has tended to issue some of its biggest or most controversial opinions in late June. So we're we've kind of got June on our calendar.

This is before they leave for their summer break, right as they walk out the door. So we're all kind of looking at late June. So what can states be doing in the meantime to prepare for that ruling, no matter which way it goes? So we're doing the research, we're communicating with our allies and legislators around the country about what laws they already have on the books. Some states already have a pre Roe ban. It was banned before Roe vs. Wade, which if those laws weren't removed, then theoretically, it's going to be banned after Roe vs. Wade. Or they have what we call a trigger law that says if the Supreme Court ever reverses Roe, then our state will make abortions.

illegal. And by the way, a couple of those states that make it legal. And so we're talking with them about their laws already on the books and whether they need to be updated, and what new legislation they should consider immediately now before they adjourn before June. Okay, so have you looked at North Carolina?

And how are we looking? In North Carolina, you have abortion is illegal after viability. So in the state of North Carolina, abortions can happen up until viability, which is generally considered, let's just say in the courts at around 24 weeks. You did pass a 20 week ban, because a baby can feel pain at that time. Now, this is quite some time ago. Now we know that a baby can feel pain.

Now we know that a baby can feel pain at 15, maybe even as early as 12 weeks. North Carolina did that, but it was enjoined in the court and still is there's still an injunction for that. So you're still at viability. You did pass a law to prohibit discriminatory abortions, like a baby has Down syndrome, for example, or because of the baby sex the sex election. But we know that your governor vetoed that last year.

So so you're still at viability. If the Supreme Court does return the power to the state to ban pre viability abortion, it'll stay legal in North Carolina until your legislature and your governor does something about that. So, so the suggestion for North Carolina would be to go for a more comprehensive ban on abortion. If your legislature is not in session at that time, you know, a couple other legislatures around the country are saying that they're going to call a special session, they're going to the governor or in some cases, the legislature can call itself back into session to deal with that.

It'll be a huge issue, you it'll just rock the country, you know, it'll just be a rock and roll kind of day or month. In North Carolina, though, you're going to have to be, I think, realistic and careful about what you can do, given the fact that your governor is not pro life and or any any hesitation within your legislature. So it's going to come down to your legislature to pass the laws and it'll come down to your governor to find them and or the legislature to override them. So elections matter. They do matter and mattering more and more on the state level these days. But it's not just all about laws, is it? I mean, we really need to persuade the hearts and minds of people. Yes, that's so true. It really is true.

And it's the same way with a lot of things. You know, we can pass laws, but what we really want to do is make abortion not just illegal, but unthinkable. So this is also a cultural or a moral or ethical kind of issue as well to change hearts and minds of people in our communities. And so we need to continue to do even even if Roe is overturned completely, there will still be states that will make it legal, really, what's going to happen in the Dobbs case, is that if they overturn Roe, they'll give it back to the states. So states like New York and New Jersey and Illinois and others, they're going to keep it legal. And so you're going to see just like before Roe, you'll see women traveling to go get an abortion and a little bit different day and age we have since 1973.

We know that in some of those states where it would be legal, they're making it a tourist destination, they're putting incentives on hotel and travel. I mean, it's all for abortion. But really talking to your neighbors, our church communities, our civic communities, really just talking about, you know, the scourge that is abortion, it doesn't just kill babies, it kills the souls of women. We see so so many times women and their regret. We have millions of women in this country. And, and frankly, when they hear these debates on TV or on the evening news, and they see they're rioting or whatever, it's very hurtful as well. But the other side just doesn't care about that.

They just want to keep it. legal. But we need to make abortion unthinkable. We need to also help women heal and help families move forward. How do the United States abortion laws compare to other countries around the world?

That's a great question. And I think shocking to a lot of people to learn that we're just one of seven countries around the world, including China and North Korea, that allow late term abortion on demand after five months or more than halfway through a pregnancy. Well, after science shows that that baby can feel that abortion. They're just one of seven nations. And those aren't the kind of nations we really want to be in the same company with anyway, with their civil rights problems and things like that.

So we're not in good company. Also, we know some newer research just came out a few few months ago that 47 out of 50 47 out of 50 European nations limit elective abortion even before 15 weeks, like the Mississippi law, which is at the center of the dobs case. So even if the Supreme Court comes down on 15 weeks, which they don't have to, but that's what's on the table, then we're still behind Europe, as most of Europe limits it before that anyway. So we are really extreme. People may not realize either how aggressive Planned Parenthood and other abortion advocates are to exporting this view of abortion on demand.

Oh, my goodness, yes. In fact, it depends on the president. So under Democratic presidents, we started sending money overseas for abortion. And then when Trump came in, we call that the Mexico City policy on his first day in office.

He stopped that. And then literally President Biden on his first day in office opened the spigots again for money overseas. There are global abortion providers sending the abortion pills either by mail or on ships going from shore to shore. I mean, it's just kind of crazy, but the abortion industry, it has truly become a business model and an industry, you know, follow the money, that kind of thing. It is not unlike what some people say, call big pharma or things like that of things that we use every day. So this has become big business, a big industry, it's a big moneymaker.

Well, thank you so much. We're just about out of time. Where can our listeners go to learn more about your work there at the Susan B. Anthony list? Our website is sbalist.org. We have a lot of scientific and pro-life facts and medical facts like fetal pain and other things at our Charlotte Lozier Institute website. And then also Charlotte Lozier has launched a beautiful new website, excuse me, website called voyageoflife.com. Voyage, V-O-Y-A-G-E, of life dot com, which shows the development of a baby from conception and on into viability and birth. And at the 15 week mark, what happens is that's the big case.

You know, when pain starts and recognition and things, it's just absolutely, absolutely stunning. That's voyage of life dot com. But our overall umbrella organization is S-B-A stands for Susan B. Anthony List L-A-S-T dot org. Sue Liebel, state policy director for the Susan B. Anthony list. Thanks so much for being with us on Family Policy Matters. You've been listening to Family Policy Matters. We hope you enjoyed the program and plan to tune in again next week to listen to the show online and to learn more about NC Families work to inform, encourage and inspire families across North Carolina. Go to our website at NC family dot org. That's NC family dot o-r-g. Thanks again for listening and may God bless you and your family.