Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NC Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. I'm Adam O'Manforah in place of Tracy this week.
So, thank you, Winston, for joining us on Family Policy Matters to discuss this serious current topic in education. Given your role and experience with EdTech at Thales Academies, we're grateful to hear your perspective on this issue.
So, when Thales was first began, I believe in about 2007, you've been there for 15 years, or longer, I think. Yeah, 2011. The school has a great founding story. Bob Luddy founded the schools and the corporate office. Offices of Captive Air.
So he donated a number of what is essentially like office space for kindergarten and first grade classrooms. And so that was the first Thales Academy campus.
So back in 2007, when that was first started, EdTech really meant like a computer lab with awkward, probably Apple computers and projectors in the classroom. Obviously, that is not what EdTech means today. What began the interest in exploring what we now think of as EdTech at Thales?
So what were sort of the promises and the hopes and the visions and what was even that technology?
Sometimes it's hard to think back to even what the iPhone 7 seemed like, much less what EdTech might have been 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah, the iPad came out in 2010 and then we started bringing iPads into the classroom around 2013, 2014. And that started initially with an iPad cart.
So it was something just to enrich instruction on very select topics, very intentional topics. Because as a history teacher and as a science teacher, there are certain things that you're covering in class that you can't really replicate in the classroom. Like if you're talking about A supernova, or you know, the Battle of Gettysburg, or something like that. You can't necessarily recreate that, even in the most dynamic and inspiring lecture. And so, maybe a short video, or you know, there are some interactive tours websites that will allow you to like walk through the streets of Rome or of Paris.
Like, those things are really great to try to bring certain subjects alive. And we incorporated an iPad cart really to do that. Then, as our high school program was built up, we brought about a one-to-one iPad initiative. And as time went on, we brought that iPad initiative to lower and lower grade levels.
So, by the time we ended our one-to-one iPad initiative, it was six through 12. And every student received an iPad to facilitate their learning and instruction throughout the day. It was closely monitored by the administrators and teachers at every Thales Academy campus. We had a really good security system put together by Cisco called Meraki that allowed administrators and teachers to monitor just about everything that was being done on the iPad.
So, we did. Like everything we could to try to ensure that this tool was being used for the best possible purposes.
So it sounds like, at least to a certain degree, it wasn't a throw a switch and go straight from projectors to one-to-one. There was sort of a gradual, this seems to be maybe showing some sort of fruits, or at least teachers were feeling like they were able to use them in a productive, maybe fruitful way. And then you grew into the one-to-one? Yeah, so the high school students got the iPads initially, and that allowed us to test out certain things for best practices.
So Apple has a lot of really good tools, but in using those things, that takes a lot of time. It causes a lot of friction. It wastes a lot of time in the classroom that you could otherwise be spent learning and teaching.
So as time went on, it's like, yeah, this is a really good tool if you're like 25. You know, this is a really good tool for efficiencies if you've already developed like the self-discipline and the self-mastery needed to like use this particular tool well. I mean, I think you and I and just about all of our listeners, like everybody, have struggled at one time or another with like putting our phones down, not checking social media, not checking our email. We can really connect with our families and stuff like that. Just take that scenario and multiply it by 20 to 30 as far as like students in a room and just see what good educational outcomes you can really get there.
So, as time went on, it became just way too much time spent to ensure that the tool is being used well.
So, what's the point of the tool? Because it doesn't really seem to be helping us achieve better outcomes for our kids.
So, disclosure: I used to teach at SCMA, which is a sister school of the Bailey system. Even as a math teacher, I used and I've had to put things on the screen, but the kids didn't have them. But even with their scientific calculators, I would, for exams, have to plug them into my computer to deactivate everything to be sure that they didn't have some app on their just scientific calculator that could solve equations for them. And it was, it was a little extra headache before every exam that I had to deactivate all the stuff on the calculator.
So, I can definitely appreciate that struggle.
So, when you initially started rolling these out, particularly in the high school, moving towards one-to-one, and then even the middle school to one-to-one, what was sort of the initial response to changes? Parents, teachers, students, was everybody like Like, gung-ho, this is exciting. Or were there people hesitant, Luddites that were resistant to the change initially? Most people were overwhelmingly happy. I mean, as a student, how could you not be happy hearing that you're getting an iPad?
Like, that to them, it doesn't matter that there are security restrictions on it, that they don't have control of the app store, that they're not allowed to download, they can't even download apps onto their own device, and that it's strictly monitored by faculty and staff. Like, that doesn't matter. Like, we're getting an iPad that seems to be Christmas come early. Parents likewise felt assured that their students would have a means to access content at home. Like, that can be kind of a struggle.
You know, you've got textbooks for a math class, a textbook for science, a textbook for Latin. That ends up being like really, really, you know, heavy as far as carrying those materials home. And so, the iPad could seemingly take the place of a textbook. It can make it easier for students to turn in assignments. If they forget something, like, there's just this really nice, you know, supply line connecting the students.
To the school via the iPad.
So parents were reassured that their students were going to succeed. Students were happy because there just seemed to be something, you know, very bright and shiny about an iPad. Teachers were a little bit more hesitant because, one, they're the people who are using the tools in the classroom and they could see that this really isn't working out as people are promising us because it takes so much to police students with the iPads and that sort of time can be better spent doing a wide variety of other things. It did make certain tasks easier, like especially assessments. You didn't have to be at the photocopier printing out like your test or quiz for that particular day.
You didn't have to grade that test physically yourself. Like there was a certain efficiency aspect that you might get as the teacher, but you also lose a lot of stuff too. Like if you're grading the test physically yourself, you're really seeing student performance and how they're doing. And you're putting in some of the connections there perhaps better than the machine does. You know, that efficiency or that lack of efficiency can also really help you improve.
Your craft, improve your teaching, because it gives you time to reflect.
So, comparing sort of the reasons and the hopes and the promises of what all this tech was supposed to be, but what were some of the long-term effects and impacts comparing what one might have hoped? Compare that to what you actually saw over 10-15 years of gradual increase in various sort of on-the-ground experimentation with EdTech?
Well, it made it a lot harder for students to remember the information that was covered in class.
So, in the iPad, you are able to read your textbook on it, you are able to read certain primary sources on it, but students generally do not comprehend or retain the information that they've read on a screen with the same sort of deeper understanding that you get from reading a physical book or a physical textbook. And there's a number of reasons for that, and there's also a lot of scientific studies done across the field of educational practice that supports that screens are just not as good for reading comprehension. And understanding as a physical paperback book or a hardcover textbook, something like that. It became a lot harder for students to develop the sort of self-discipline needed to use the tool well because you have so many factors that are really weakening a student's ability to use the tool well.
So, YouTube is probably the prime example. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal that one parent found that their student had accessed like 13,000 hours of YouTube on a school-issued iPad. It's really hard for students to learn self-discipline if they have a number of things like engaging them, tempting them to use their time really poorly. It really sets in a number of bad habits, honestly. And then, lastly, was just handwriting.
So, students became so acclimated to taking notes on the iPad, completing their papers on the iPad, that they really didn't write things down physically with a pencil on paper anymore.
So, handwriting just dropped calamitously.
Now, at Thales, we were doing an awful lot to make sure that handwriting is not only supported in kindergarten. Fifth grade, which is pretty normal. Likewise, six through twelve, you know, students need to be taking good notes on paper.
So, those would be the three big areas: reading, comprehension, and retention, self-discipline, and there's just practically handwriting. And so, what steps did you take? You've started to roll back, but tell us what steps you've taken and are maybe looking at taking in the near future.
Well, I think we've repented. Like, in the best sense of the word, we've repented. Like, the word in Greek means like metanoia, like turn to the back, march. Like, once you recognize that you're doing something wrong, like, hey, you acknowledge it, you own it, and you just stop doing it.
So, this past year at Thales, we ended our one-to-one iPad initiative. The cost savings that we've generated by not buying an iPad for each student, we've used to buying just way more physical paperback books for students to write in. We've already seen advantages, you know, comprehension, retention, better handwriting, because now they have a vehicle to be practicing those sorts of skills every day.
Next year, we'll end our iPad initiative in high school, so students likewise will just like. They go back to pen and paper and physical books, which I think is a really beautiful thing. That's really key to encouraging better, like honestly, like college success rates and things like that, that students are reading physical materials. It's a lot better for reading comprehension and memory and the like. But those are the big things that we've done, it's just ending the iPad program.
So this last year you took the one-to-one iPad program out of the middle school. What effects have you seen so far from that?
Well, we didn't just remove the iPads from students. Instead, we tried to fill the school day with as much good opportunities for like physical movement and independent play.
So we brought back recess. Students haven't had, like they've had PE, they've had sports after school, but there wasn't this dedicated and honestly relatively unstructured time where students can just play basketball or play volleyball or hang out with their friends either outside or like in our gym space.
So we removed the iPads, but we brought in a lot of time where students can develop those meaningful relationships but also independent play like getting a lot of exercise out and the like. I think a lot of these technological tools end up encouraging like poor behavior because students are confined to a desk but they still have all this energy that they need to get out and so that shows itself in you know poor behavior management.
So we did get rid of the iPads but we brought back things like those sorts of times where students can really be kids again but it's those sorts of things right they're glued to their device they're not like deepening friendship engaging in conversation, the sorts of things that we associate with like being a kid. Technology does tend to drain those opportunities for those meaningful engagements. And so removing the tool and then bringing back some really good things like recess has been unbelievably good for our students. That's great.
So what's next for Thales with tech going forward?
So that was sort of a middle school experiment. Will that affect the high school going forward or what's next?
Well next year we will remove our iPad program and high school as well. And we're just continuing to double down on those very old timey, you know, instruments like pen and paper, pencils and physical books. The cost savings that we've generated removing iPads from the classroom, we're providing students with copies of the books that really they should use to build up their libraries.
So like a seventh grade student, you know, by the end of next year is going to have physical copies of a number of the Chronicles of Narnia. A high school student is going to have a physical copy of Homer's Iliad to take with them, physical copies of the Bible that they can annotate and mark up in and underline passages and write questions to themselves. Like really building the sort of classical library that a classical education is really meant to produce.
So that's something that I'm personally looking forward to is just we're doubling down on the things that really help students in their learning. And then also there's more vocational arts classes.
So more opportunities for kids to get outside and like learn how to garden, you know, take care of the environment, more opportunities for kids to like learn some practical skills that are also kind of fun and hands-on and involve a lot of movement and things like that.
Well, that's great. Unfortunately, we are just about out of time for this interview. Before we go, Winston, where can our listeners learn more about Thales Academy and find some of the articles and work that you and your team are putting out?
Well, and thank you so much again for having me on your program. This is a huge honor. You can find more about Thales Academy at our website, www.thalesacademy.org. And on that website, there's a lot of information about our policies and our approach to classical education, as well as a host of articles written by our faculty on various topics like poetry memorization or the dangers of AI or what a vocational arts program really looks like.
Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights and giving us a closer look at the changes happening at Thales. Winston Brady, Director of Curriculum at Thales Academy, thank you for being with us on family policy matters. If you'd like to hear the rest of our conversation where we explore social and philosophical implications of the use of technology in the classroom and how this can inform policy, you can find the rest of this conversation on all major streaming platforms. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review.
To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org. That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
