Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rustin, president of NCE Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. And now here's the host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy DeVett-Griggs. Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters.
Even before the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022, leaders in the pro-life movement were warning that such a ruling would not end the abortion battle. But no one knew exactly what that was going to look like until we began walking down that road. David Klausen is director of the Center for Biblical Worldview at Family Research Council, and he's author of a new book, Life After Row, which seeks to clarify the Bible's teachings on the unborn and empower Christians to confidently advocate for life.
David Klausen, welcome to Family Policy Matters. Tracy, it's a joy to be on the program again. Thanks so much for having me.
Well, the first chapter of your book gives some surprising information gleaned from a Barna poll about what churchgoers believe about abortion.
So what was most surprising to you about that? It's so interesting, Tracy, when you look at polls and surveys, because so often, whether it's Gallup or Pew, it's based on kind of self-identification.
So, you know, you might be asked several questions, and then at the end of the conversation you have with the pollster, if you identify as a Christian, they mark you down as a Christian, even if, you know, you haven't been to church since your mom dropped you off at a wanna, maybe, you know, in the 1980s. And so what we have the privilege of doing at FRC. Few years ago with George Barna, is do a major survey with regular churchgoers, people who consistently attend church. In fact, to even be eligible, you had to be a monthly churchgoer. And in the survey you're talking about, Tracy, it was 72% were weekly churchgoers.
So we really think these are the most devout. And what we found was just amazing. Just on self-identification, we found that 63% of regular churchgoers identify as pro-life, although 37% do not even identify as pro-life. What was interesting to me was specifically when we asked about basic kind of theological beliefs, we found, for example, 65% of regular churchgoers told us they think the Bible identifies a point when life begins. Only 65%.
We ask a follow-up question to that 65%. We said, okay, 65% of you think the Bible identifies a point when life begins. What is that point? And of those 65%, it was only 52% that says the Bible teaches that life begins at conception. And to really make it simple, of about the thousand and nine people who took the survey, Tracy, it was only 300 of them basically who said the Bible teaches life begins at conception.
It shows a real lack of biblical literacy. But I think I'll give you one more stat that stood out to me because we did this survey again the summer of 2023, one year after the Roe v. Wade decision had been overturned. We asked these churchgoers, how often have you heard a teaching on abortion and the value of human life? Only 44% told us that in the last 12 months, they had heard a teaching or preaching on the question of abortion.
Now, again, Tracy, I'll remind you, these are the 12 months after Roe v. Wade, when pretty much everybody was speaking about the issue. You had professional sports teams and the business bureau speaking out about this. And yet, when everyone had an opinion, only 44% of pastors preached a sermon or provided a teaching on abortion or the value of human life. I found that very surprising.
Can you speculate why? Why do you think so few pastors are speaking out? I always say. This is never a cudgel to be wielded at pastors. I want to come alongside pastors.
But I do think that there is some reluctance, especially around some of these issues that are deemed more political, to speak clearly on it. Too many pastors, I think, do preach topical messages rather than expositional.
Now, again, when you preach expositionally through books of the Bible, you're kind of forced to talk about whatever the text of the day is. And so I love it when pastors will do an expositional sermon series through the book of Luke. Because when you get to Luke chapter one, verses 39 through 45, I think that's one of the most profound pro-life texts in the Bible. And you're kind of forced to apply the text. And so I do think there's a desire not to be too political amongst others.
I know my generation, so I'm a millennial, someone who went through seminary, you know, about a decade ago. And I know there were some guys that I went to seminary with who kind of looked at the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwell's kind of the culture warriors and said, well, I don't want to be too much identified with that. And so I think the pendulum has kind of swung maybe a little too far in the other direction. And so I think there's probably a lot of reasons, but those are a couple of things. That I think the research at least points to.
Well, your book, Life After Row, has an entire chapter dealing with the theological and biblical arguments for what you call a pro-life ethic.
So do you hope that this will in some way sway some of those in the church who don't consider themselves pro-life? Tracy, if that happened, I'd be the happiest person in Washington, D.C. right now because my heart, you know, I got to get into these issues, not primarily because I love policy and public policy, but because I love the Bible. I love God's people. I want to equip God's people to understand the issues through the lens of a biblical worldview.
And I'm convinced the Bible is profoundly pro-life from cover to cover. The Bible gives us a pro-life ethic from conception to natural death. And so I do, as you said, have a whole chapter that kind of unpacks the Bible's teaching on abortion and the value of human life. I provide extensive exegetical engagement with texts such as Psalm 139 and Luke 1, which I already mentioned. Other passages in Isaiah, Jeremiah, of course, and Exodus 20, even in the.
The Ten Commandments, grounding all of this in Genesis 1 and 2. Of course, our creation in the Imago Day. And so, to answer the question directly, Tracy, I'd be the happiest person in the world if people walked away from reading my book with an understanding that the Bible, that God's heart, is pro-life, and that therefore we should be the people who are also pro-life and value everyone as fellow image bearers. But do you really think the problem is that they don't know what the Bible says? Or are we just, as a kind of culture of Christians, not willing to do what we find the Bible tells us to do in regard to a lot of these social issues?
Absolutely, Tracy. And so again, again, I'm not laying most of the blame at the pastor's feet. What you just said, our culture is a pro-death culture. And a pastor has maybe an hour on a Sunday morning, maybe an hour Sunday night. And some churches still have Wednesday prayer meetings.
But, you know, the vast majority of the time, people are spending time on their phones, on social media, consuming media. And the vast majority of those cultural institutions are not pro-life and they mitigate against a pro-life ethic. Even if you think about the education system, one of the things I often cite is if you're a student, you will spend 16,000 hours in a classroom from kindergarten through 12th grade, 16,000 hours. And how can you possibly hope to counteract that? With a one-hour message on a Sunday morning.
And so I think, Tracy, you have your thumb on an important point, which is that those of us who are pro-life Christians and in our convictions, we are a minority. And we are swimming upstream when it comes not just to the life issue, but to issues of family and sexuality. We are a minority. And I think with the overturning of Roe v. Wade and how our culture has responded, I think that is really underscoring that point.
Okay.
So if we are swimming upstream, certainly in our culture, it sounds like if 37% of our regular churchgoers don't claim to be pro-life, we may be swimming upstream sometimes, even in our churches.
So have you looked at how those churchgoers, those regular churchgoers, justify not being pro-life? Do we know what those arguments are? Yes, we do. And a couple of things, very succinctly I can say, is we know that a large percentage of these church goers actually tell us, we ask the question, that they're kind of marching order, so to speak, their impulse. Are being formed by public policy or social media rather than the Word of God.
It's over 50%. I don't remember the exact number, but we asked, what is the primary disciple-making or instruction as far as your opinion on the life issue? And it was public polls, public perception, all of those were outpacing what you find people looking to hear from the pulpit.
So I think that's an important part of the conversation. Again, I don't want to beat up on pastors because it's hard when we're swimming upstream against the culture. But even in our churches, and one argument, Tracy, that I just think is super important for people to understand is: you know, when I was growing up in the 90s, I remember a lot of folks, we would go to the abortion clinic on Saturday and pray outside of it. And I remember a lot of people kind of on the pro-abortion, pro-choice side, would say, well, it's just a clump of cells. It's just a clump of cells.
That was kind of a big argument that they used. I don't know, you know, again, people watching this program, Tracy, let me ask you guys as a question. When was the last time you actually heard someone make that argument? Argument. And I would bet it's been a while.
And why is that?
Well, because the pro-abortion side doesn't really use that argument anymore. And why is that?
Well, we're two to three generations into ultrasound technology. We've all grown up with seeing the pictures of our little brothers or sisters or cousins on the refrigerator. And so the real argument that they're now making is what's called as the personhood theory argument. And the argument that the pro-abortion groups will make was: well, you know what? There's something different between being biologically human and being a person.
So, sure, the unborn entity in the womb might be biologically alive, but it's not a person that has moral standing and therefore has legal rights. Nancy Piercy has written a marvelous book about this issue called Love Thy Body. But Tracy, I would say that, and in my research, I found this in the pro-abortion literature. That is kind of the main argument that the pro-abortion side is trying to use, trying to catechize and disciple.
Okay, we know the entity in the womb is alive, but it's only biologically alive. It's not a person. That's the difference they bring. And for those of us, who are Christians, Tracy, we need to say that that's an artificial distinction. As Christians, we understand the Bible to teach if you are biologically alive, you are a person, you have moral worth, therefore you have dignity and therefore merit legal protection as well.
Can you just give us, I mean there's no place in the Bible that says don't have an abortion. Where do you get your information? Like how do you look at the Bible and say that the Bible clearly from front to end is pro-life? Just give us two examples, if you would. What a wonderful question, Tracy.
Yeah, let me give you the two most famous passages. I think most folks would probably be familiar with Psalm 139, verses 13 through 16. This is where David, as the adult king of Israel, is reflecting. He reflects on being put together in his mother's womb, intricately woven together. What's amazing about that passage, Tracy, is in the context, this is David's actual meditation on God's presence.
Earlier in the chapter, he says, If I ascend to heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. Kind of the whole context of the passage is David's reflection on God's presence. As he thinks about God's presence with him today, as an adult human being, king of Israel, writing the psalm, he can't help but realize, wow, God's presence has always been with me from my very earliest moments of existence when he was weaving me together in my mother's womb. Even the language of weaving together, that's the language of needlework.
That's the language that you find used to describe the tabernacle when it's being put together by those men who are filled with the Holy Spirit.
So it's this language of intention and purpose. And then, Tracy, the other text is Luke. Luke chapter 1, verses 39 through 45. This is where Mary is informed by the angel that she's going to be pregnant. And of course, she's understandably just trying to process all of this.
She runs to her relative Elizabeth's house. And there's three details about that passage very briefly. Number one, when she walks in the house, what does Elizabeth do? She greets her and says, Why is the mother of my Lord coming to visit me? Referring to Mary as a mother at a point when most women don't even know they're pregnant, and referring to the unborn Jesus, who's just a couple weeks in utero at most, using that Christological title of Lord.
Oh, also, John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth's womb. And what's remarkable about that, Tracy? We know from Isaiah 700 years earlier that there was going to be a forerunner of the Messiah. We know that's John the Baptist. I like to say, John the Baptist's ministry of preparation for Jesus has begun in utero.
And then, oh, by the way, Luke tells us that both Elizabeth and John the Baptist are filled with the Holy Spirit in this moment, which means that their responses and their reactions are both. Both appropriate and fitting.
So, texts like this, Tracy, I think, are texts that show us God's heart is pro-life. And I think, therefore, as followers of Jesus, we should be too. Yeah. And I think that's a really good point. I think sometimes we think that we have to read the Bible and find specific statements, but really, we're reading the Bible to see the heart of God, as you mentioned.
And clearly, if we care about learning the heart of God, we can see that he is pro-life throughout.
So, great examples. Thank you for sharing those with us. As we wrap up, David Klausen, where can our listeners go to learn more about your work, but also pick up a copy of your new book, Life After Row? Pick up the book on Amazon. Again, Life After Row, Equipping Christians in the Fight for Life Today.
It's wherever books are sold. And then for the rest of the work, including a lot of this research, if you're someone interested in this, you can go to frc.org slash worldview and download our research. It's there for free. Use it in your teaching, your preaching, your discipleship ministries. frc.org slash worldview.
All right, David Klausen, director of the Center for Biblical Worldview at Family Research Council. Thank you so much for being with us today on Family Policy Matters. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review. To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org.
That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
