Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NCE Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. Parents, please note that this episode touches on some mature content, so please be cautious if you're listening with young children. And now, here's the host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy DeVett Griggs.
Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters. Today's show is a continuation of a discussion we began last week with attorney and former North Carolina Representative Paul Stam. We mostly know him as Skip Stam, who served 16 years in the North Carolina House, including a decade as Republican leader and Speaker pro tem. Over the years, he's been a prominent voice in state policy debates, especially on the issue of abortion. In a recent series of articles, Skip Stam examines what he calls the propaganda surrounding abortion, how we can recognize it, and how we can respond.
Skip Stam, thanks for joining us again today. Thanks, Tracy. All right, so in your first article, you argued that pro-abortion propaganda often begins with the absence of any reference to the unborn child. In this second article, you argue that calling North Carolina's 2023 abortion law a ban is Actually, propaganda.
So, why is that term misleading, and why do you think that it gets used so often? It's not nowhere near a ban because 95% of all pregnancies are not affected by the North Carolina law.
So it's the farthest thing from a ban.
So why do you suppose that people use this kind of language? I mean, is it all about emotion? It's a motive term, ban, where a carefully nuanced explanation of the law takes more time. And because it takes more time, people, they don't look at the nuances. But the nuances are very important.
You say that you have never seen a true abortion ban. Even the strictest laws, which we hear about usually in other states, are not actual bans. Right. Everywhere, the mother's life being preserved is the law, whether it's in the statute or not. And of course, that's been in North Carolina law since the Revolution in 1776.
Now, there have been proposals in some other states that would truly be a ban, but they've not ever been adopted. And also, the mother who does an abortion on herself has never been prosecuted and has almost never been against the law.
So there has been no ban. Right. Now, you mentioned in your article too that only one-tenth of 1% of abortions actually involves threats to the mother's life. Yes. Is that something that's important for us to be talking about out there?
Yes. And I talked with a doctor who's an expert in this and who had committed 10,000 abortions in another state, but became pro-life. And he says, really, there are none because it depends on what you mean by an abortion.
So for example, if a doctor treats an ectoptic pregnancy, which we'll come to, the baby can't survive, and a doctor who removes that ectoptic pregnancy, separates the embryo from the mother, is not really committing an abortion at all. But if you consider that an abortion, that's how you get to your 1 tenth of 1%. Oh, interesting.
Okay. You mentioned that there are specific exceptions. Walk us through those. I think that would be important for us to understand those. Sure.
Human development is continuous. There is no point in pregnancy when something really dramatic happens after fertilization. But we like to think. that in terms of a pregnancy, that radical things happen at different ages, first trimester, second trimester.
Well, the supposed ban in North Carolina doesn't even start until below 12 weeks. And therefore, 90% of the pregnancies in North Carolina qualify for an abortion under the law if performed by a doctor and after informed consent and various other requirements.
So 90% is a pretty big hole in the total.
So that's number one. But number two, there's six others. For example, an ectoctic pregnancy, which is in the fallopian tube instead of in the uterus, the child can't survive. That's specifically accepted from the supposed ban. As we said, the abortions to save the life of the mother have never been prohibited.
Also, abortions to preserve the mother's physical health from serious harm are not prohibited. And that's been true for forever, really. Then come the other exceptions that you probably heard of, rape, incest.
Now Rape is one thing. We think of that as a violent act, but it also would be an unviolent act if done on a person below a certain age. But minor.
Well, we also have incest. As an exception, but if you think about it, incest as an exception doesn't make any sense because. In our minds, we're thinking of incest involving children, but if they're children, it's rape.
So as a separate category. Incest is always consensual because if it's not, it's rape. Then abortion for rape is up to 20 weeks, which is You know, almost old enough for the unborn child to be delivered naturally. Be almost old enough to survive. I mean, that's really going long.
And a person who has been raped has had five months to decide it was rape. And usually, not always, usually. A woman who has been raped knows that she has been raped that day. And if not that day, certainly that week. and needs to think about it for another week or two.
You know, five months is really long. And the numbers of those who do abortions for rape or incest is like 1%. And we know that from statistical studies. when abortions were paid for. by the state only for rape or incest, preserve the life of a mother.
We know the numbers that were done. Then the final seventh exceptions. is through 24 weeks of gestation, which is old enough for the child to be born and to survive. If there's a life-limiting anomaly, now that does not include Down syndrome, but it does include some serious health problems, that as part of that exception, they do have to get counseling on what the real effect of that anomaly would be. Like Tay-Sachs disease, things like that.
So, all of these exceptions together. They cover about 95% of all pregnancies.
So the idea that this is really a ban on abortion is propaganda. It's rather absurd. But people believe it because they don't look at the actual details. You're listening to Family Policy Matters, a weekly radio show and podcast produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. This is just one of the many ways NC Family works to educate and inform citizens about issues that impact faith and family here in North Carolina.
Our vision is to create a state and nation where God is honored, religious freedom flourishes, families thrive, and life is cherished. For more information about NC Family and how you can partner with us in pursuit of this vision, visit our website at ncfamily.org and be sure to sign up to receive our email updates, action alerts, and Family North Carolina magazine. You can also follow us on social media at NC Family Policy. That's at NC Family Policy. Right.
So just to be clear, you're presenting this as information for us. You're not saying that these are good or bad. You're not making a judgment on whether these are good or bad rules, right? Right. And I think that last one's pretty sorry, but the others are common.
Well, several of them are common in legislation because you have to have them to pass the bill. But the one that accepts 90% of pregnancies by making it legal up to 12 weeks is not necessary to get a bill passed because a couple of dozen states don't have that and they go along just fine. As a matter of fact, every state to the south and west of North Carolina is much more protective of the unborn child than North Carolina is.
South Carolina, for example, only allows abortion up to the time when the embryonic heart can be shown to be beating. Tennessee prohibits abortion. From conception, but with some of these very minor exceptions. When I say minor, I mean very infrequently used. Florida, you know, huge population down there again is much more protective.
You know, all the states to the south and west, at least as far west as Texas, are much more protective of unborn children.
So, is that where you would start then? If you had to start chipping away at some of these exceptions that you think would be the best ones to address first, is that what you would start with? Oh, sure. The exception that makes the least sense is the one allowing. abortions up to 12 weeks of gestation.
Nothing happens at 12 weeks. Long before 12 weeks, the The embryo, the fetus, looks exactly like the child who's born, just smaller, just smaller. And nothing happens around 12 weeks of any significance to the child. Right. We have heard in the past that North Carolina was basically a destination state for people that needed an abortion because of the tougher laws that are in surrounding states.
Is that still the case? Very much so. There are many more abortions now committed in North Carolina than before the supposed ban. And the reason is people are coming from all over the South and farther west. to come to North Carolina.
Now, if they want to have a really late-term abortion, you know, third trimester, they've got to go to Virginia, you know, or District of Columbia or New York City. But we are by far the least protective. And so we have about, I'm going to say 50% more abortions.
Now, than what we had before the so-called pro-life law. which was passed in 2023.
Now I say I say so-called. It did improve the situation in North Carolina. But it certainly did not. Limit the number of abortions to any degree. What do we need to do?
If somebody hears this and they're like, I had no idea. You know, I thought Roe v. Wade, once that was overturned, hey, things were going to get a lot better. And now I hear this, that our state was responsible for so many more abortions. What could the everyday person who may not be a North Carolina lawmaker or involved in politics, what can they do?
Well, certainly they should start reading more carefully what they get from Family Policy Council because Family Policy Council has been telling the truth about this for a couple of years. Then they, you know, need to get out more, you know, talk to their friends, talk to their. Family certainly You know, in their circle of friends, they need to be more accurate and active. But the General Assembly. needs to hear from them.
And contrary to common understanding, representatives want to hear from their constituents. They really do listen. And even if that person in your district representing you. is firmly committed to reproductive rights or abortion as health care. Knowing that there is opposition in the district to their position will slow them down.
turn down the volume on their rhetoric. and has an effect. And what it Most will do. If you have a Pro-life. House member or Senate member.
It might inspire them to action as opposed to just words.
Well, you have written a series of articles on this, especially the propaganda issue. Where can people go to read all of those articles and the other good work that you have? There's my website. PaulStam, one word, one M at the end of stam, PaulStam at.info, I-N-F-O. We don't usually use that domain, but that's where it is.
And there's hundreds of articles. And the ones in 2025 include a lot of the articles that would be most helpful in this.
Okay, sounds good. Paul, Skip, Stam, thank you so much for joining us today on Family Policy Matters. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review. To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org.
That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
