How to Overcome Shame: Esther Liu

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So again, you're going to text FLT plus where you're listening from to 80542. He's not always looking at me with this low grade disappointment and disdain. He looks at me with compassion. He sees the weakness. He sees my dust-ness quality. He sees that. He knows that.

And his response is not, what's wrong with you? Get it together. It's not, oh, there she is.

Like, I'll just kind of put her on the sidelines. It's, I have compassion for you. My heart moves towards you. I want to help you. I want to come alongside of you.

His heart is moved for me in the midst of weakness. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

You know, Esther Liu is back with us. We've been talking about shame. Here's a question I have for you. And I know you're not a parent, but shame often feels like it's generational. And so, you know, when we as parents, and we may not even know it, but we were shamed as children when we grew up. And so now we're adults. And we carry a level of shame that we may not even be able to identify, but it's there. Now we have children. And so there's almost like this generational curse that sort of was given to us. You know, the Bible says the sins of the father, they're going to go into the family. Unless you're intentionally going to change it, they're going to just pass on.

It's like DNA is going to go through. So if I'm a parent that hasn't really dealt well with my own shame, next thing you know, other people can see it, but I can't see it. I am now passing that shame on. I'm shaming my kids.

I'm demanding performance. I'm saying you're not worthy unless you get A's or you're the starting quarterback, whatever it is. How does a parent break that? Because even when you were talking about your mom, I thought, I bet there was something that she got that now she's passing on and you're experiencing. And I did the same thing. I did it.

I got it. I gave it and I don't want to. So it's like the question would be help a parent go, I got to stop this. I want to stop this.

How do I stop this? Yeah. I mean, back to the comment about my mom, I've come to terms with like, that's all she knew. It's the sense of you give what you receive and how much of my parenting is just going to be informed by what I experienced growing up.

Like, what else do I know in terms of like a default framework. And if you ask them, they're going to say, I did the best I can. Which is true. And they did, you know, but they didn't know. There's like a, there's like a, I got to break this somehow. So we've got the counselor in the room, Esther Liu, to say, okay, how do, what would you, what would your wisdom be? How do we break the shame?

I mean, I alluded to this in day one. One of the biggest things that can be done is just to even identify my tendency. Like I have a tendency to shame my children in a way that they're going to grow up living like they need to perform or meet certain standards in order to be pleasing, in order to be worthy of love, in order to be worthy of favor.

And so one, on one level, even just being able to say that and identify that and say, I do this, or I think I might be doing this, that is a spirit wrought miracle in and of itself. Because shame so often lives in the darkness, it lives under cover. Not many of us, including myself, lived with the sense of constantly thinking about shame growing up. And so the fact that it could be the entire framework of parenting and of raising our kids without that word shame, even entering into our vocabulary just shows how much it can lurk in the shadows. And maybe even to have another friend or another parent. I mean, it's hard to say, but hey, if you see something in the way I parent, would you call it out? You know, to have other eyes go, hey, I don't know if you know this, but you treat your one child totally different than your other. You had that happen.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to hear, but man, is that helpful. Because first of all, you're going to go, at least I did, no, I don't. What are you talking about?

You're wrong. And then it's like, get in the mirror and go, hmm, there's got to be some truth in what he said. So what's that mean? So either you identify it or somebody else helps you identify it. Well, I even like this question that you share, Esther, what are some present day struggles you have a hard time sharing with others? Like, because we tend to hide the pieces of ourselves that we're ashamed of. We hide those things. So I think that that'd be a good question with the spouse. What are the areas of shame?

I'm thinking a lot of marriages, there's porn in a marriage. And so you hide it because you're so ashamed of it. But what would it be like to bring those areas that we hide into the light?

Scary. You go show a new level of intimacy if you can share those things and still be loved and accepted. But they're really, it's risky because you don't know if you'll be loved and accepted when you bring the areas into the light.

Absolutely. And that's probably part of, you know, Dave, your question about how to parent differently is what is off limits or not off limits for your children to come to speak to you about? When they come and confess their sin or they open up or even if you catch them in something, what is that response going to be? That either says this is a safe place where not that there won't be consequences to things that need consequences in order to be in order for me to parent well. It's not the mitigation or the elimination of consequences, but it's saying like you are known now in some of these dark places of your life. And there are going to be consequences, but those consequences are given out of love.

And overarchingly, what we want is for your good and we are going to love you through this. And so for parents, it's interesting, like what is our response to failures and what is our response to our children's shortcomings, weaknesses, et cetera? I think that is a huge step into finding a different way to parent where shame doesn't have such a loud presence. Boy, you know, as you say that, I think that also applies to your spouse. When your spouse lets you down, what you were just saying, maybe they confess a secret, what's your response?

I mean, that's going to determine the future of your marriage. I can remember when our kids were little, I would go to bed at night and I was bombarded with shame. I felt like I was a bad parent. I felt like I had overreacted. I felt like I had yelled. I felt like I was always out of control. And every night when I put my head on the pillow, I felt like I am a failure as a mom. I am messing my kids up. I am horrible.

I'd always go, we're great. You did a great job. Not realizing she really was carrying that heavy. Not only are we carrying things from the past, maybe things from our parents or the weight that we felt of performance, but there's also an enemy of our soul who is the word Satan means accuser, who's continually accusing us. And man, I felt that. And so to take those thoughts captive, like I'm not a failure as a mom. And I can remember one night I went through a list. Okay, here's the things I did wrong. What are the things that I did right today?

I fed my children. You know, we laughed and we played because so often we can look at all the negative instead of like, no, there was some great success today in how we parented. We can do that in our marriage too, but we don't tend to look at ourselves as much as how our spouse failed us. Yeah, I would, you know, as I'm listening to this conversation, I'm thinking, what would it be like to be known as a joy bringer? Life speaker. You know, a life giver to people, our kids, our marriage.

I was just thinking, you know, because so often we bring shame into other people's lives by measuring them and putting burdens on them that they weren't designed to carry. What would it be like if you walked in a room and people are like, I love this guy. I love this gal.

I don't know why. I just feel like I'm a better person when I'm around them. I'm a good person.

They think I'm a good person. You know, that's, that's, I think that's what people felt when Jesus walked in the room. I don't know all about this man, but they're, I mean, sinners are drawn to having a meal with him. I thought, how many sinners want to be with us?

You know, because we're so judgmental and we put shame on people rather than I see greatness in you. Do you see it? You know, that's being known and fully loved. Totally. Your book is loaded with scripture. Are there any scriptures that have just really helped you through? And as you've been dealing with shame and looking into it, into your own self and with others, what are some of the scriptures that just come alive to you?

Yeah. So I think, um, Psalm 103 is one that I will always go to. Verses 13 and 14, as a father has compassion for his child, so the Lord has compassion for you, for he knows your frame, he remembers at your dust. And yeah, I think probably that aspect of shame and the mist of weakness gets to me still a lot.

It's not necessarily sin, but it's weakness. I can't quite measure up to the standard. It's not a category of moral failure, but it's just, I wish I could do better here. I wish I could be better here. And so often my posture towards myself in the midst of weakness is disdain and contempt. Like, why don't you get it together? Why can't you do better? The self-borating, self-condemnation type of feeling and thoughts that enter into my mind. And even easy to imagine God's posture in the midst of that. Like, you know, as I'm engaging in ministry opportunities, I think, like, if only I could do better and perform better in ministry, how much more fruitful would this be for God's kingdom?

It's not just for my own ego to feel better about myself. It's, God, like, you can use me, I can reach people, I can do all this stuff for you and for good and for Christ. But because I'm like this, you're so limited in, you know, what you can do. And so even in that sense, I feel like I can picture God being like, if only you could get it together, if only you could be a little better at this, if only you could be a little bit better at that, like, think of how I could use you for my kingdom. I just imagine his posture being one of, like, even low-grade disappointment and disdain.

Like, oh, this is you. And so Psalm 103, I revisit that often because it's such a corrective that I need for my soul that it's not, he's not always looking at me with this low-grade disappointment and disdain. He looks at me with compassion. He sees the weakness. He sees my dust-ness quality, which there's nothing impressive about dust. He sees that. He knows that.

And his response is not, what's wrong with you? Get it together. It's not, oh, there she is.

Like, I'll just kind of put her on the sidelines. It's, I have compassion for you. My heart moves towards you. I want to help you.

I want to come alongside of you. His heart is moved for me in the midst of weakness. And so I feel like I've revisited that passage so many times when I've needed that reminder. He's not just scolding me and berating me.

He has compassion, and I'm not alone in this. Yeah, I even wonder if there's phrases that we should say or should not say as parents or as spouses or even as friends to people that could be unintentionally shaming people. We don't realize it, but like I was thinking when Anne, and she said this many times early in our marriage, I'm not pretty. I don't look good. And I was so shocked because I thought she was the most beautiful woman in the world.

I still do. And I thought I was helping her. And here's what I'd say, Esther. I'd go, what are you talking about? You're gorgeous. You know that.

How can you not see that? And she'd be like, no, I don't. I'm like, yes, you do. So instead of helping her, I added on.

It didn't help at all. I literally thought she doesn't believe this. She just wants a compliment. So she's saying this. Like, you know, she's fishing, right? And I realized, I don't know, it was at least a decade. I'm like, she really doesn't think.

She's gorgeous like I do. And so I realized I'm not helping by saying, come on. I need a reminder. Let me tell you, you are. And another thing, physical beauty isn't the end all.

That isn't the most important thing. But just to make sure you understand, you are physically beautiful, but even spiritually and soul and emotionally. I didn't realize I was heaping shame by my comments rather than empathetically going, oh, I just, that was a sign, a symptom that she's feeling some shame. I want to come alongside and remind her. I want to be Psalm 103 to her.

I want to be the voice of God as a dad now to my sons and my daughters, as a grandparent, as a husband or wife, even as a friend, I want to be that voice that says, no, no, no, let me tell you the truth. That what you're saying right there, that's a lie. And again, the way you do that, because I could do it in a harsh way. Come on.

Or I could do this. I need to be gentle because they really believe it. So I want to say it in a way that brings life out of the pit of shame.

What are some of the other phrases or words we can say to our kids? I mean, I'm thinking you're the you're the pro, but like you can do better than that. Come on, you can do better than that. In one sense, you're encouraging them because you believe they do have better. But the other sense, you just feel like you just said to them, your effort there wasn't good enough. You can do better rather than that was great. Let's try it again. I don't know. Well, I mean, there has to be a healthy way to say it.

What do you think? The line is so fine, right? Like you can say it in a totally different tone. And it's like, this is such an empowering statement to be like, I believe in you. Or it could turn into like, I'm disappointed in your effort and that wasn't good enough and you're not good enough. And so tone is huge. Rather than the content, sometimes it's the way we say it and our posture and the way we say it. And do they know in that moment that we are for them?

And are we rushing through it of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, you know, I've told you before, I've already told you, you know, you're pretty. I think you're beautiful. Like you said, saying it, it's not like that much changed in what you were saying to her about her physical attractiveness. But the way you were saying it and understanding, she's struggling with this. Like, she really believes this about herself.

And so how can I be a conduit of how God sees her and how can I communicate it in a way that reflects God's heart for her? Rather than like, oh yeah, just like fishing for a compliment. And you know, here it is, you know, a little bit flippantly and tritely. So, so much of that depends on how we say it and our intention behind those words. And are we really intending for this to be a reflection of God's heart for them? Or are we intending to kind of just finish the conversation and move on to the next topic?

It would be like to almost set a goal to say every day, I want to make sure I say three, five, one, I don't know, positive life-giving statements to my spouse, to my child. You know what I mean? Not that it's a game you play. I mean, it's interesting because with your kids, you're still training them too. And so you're helping them to, I'm thinking about when we were working out with our kids, like they were all football players. And I think Cody was the youngest. He was probably in fifth grade and our other kids were older. And so we're running the stairs at this stadium.

Did you get this image here? My wife is running stairs with three middle school boys and yelling at them to give it all. The two older ones are great, but the younger one is so, and he's complaining the whole time. And so after a while, like, dude, you're complaining. Like, come on, just work hard. So it's not like I was always like, and I had, like, you're awesome. You're the best. You're good at this. But there are times I think we have to speak encouraging words without shame. It's that tricky part that we just said, there's a fine line between you're awful or you're lazy or you're, but there's also that part of like, okay, come on. Let's go. Yeah.

I don't know. I've probably failed a lot at that because I can tend to be performance driven. And that probably seeped into them a little bit anyway, more so than now. But even our one son got a puppy. And so this is awful. So the puppy was terrible at times and I needed a word just for him to know he was bad. And so my word was shame.

So he's like biting somebody. I go, shame. So what happened is their four and two year old are constantly like, shame. And our son is so mad at me like, Mom, couldn't you have picked a better word than shame? Like, the dog doesn't know.

You know, it's a dog. But now my kids are like, shame. Oh, it's so hard as parents.

I know. But what you were saying earlier, I think dovetails well with what we're saying here. At one point you were talking about, like, why do I fixate more on my failures and my successes and how much at the end of the day as a parent. I'm like, I'm such a bad parent.

Like I feel so guilty. This is how I fall short and how easy it is to fixate on the things that we could have done better or didn't do and should have done. That's there's like a selective attention, selective memory that shame Strugglers can experience that even though they did a hundred things right and maybe one thing wrong. The one thing that they replay in their head is the one thing they did wrong instead of the hundred things. So even the exercise that you did there, like, well, I fed the kids, you know, I played with them.

I laughed with them. That can get lost in the equation when we retell our day and reflect on our day. And so I think there is something beautiful about what are ways that I can affirm the people around me, too, if they're living that way. Because chances are there are other people in my life who are only paying attention to the ways they fall short and are only noticing the ways that they fail to perform or fail to measure up.

And that's what they're thinking about and replaying when they put their head to the pillow. And so there is something about people in our lives and us feeling the calling towards other people to say, if this is the way you live, like, I want to make explicit, like, this is how I saw you today. This is how I saw Christ in you today.

This is how I experienced, you know, the love of Christ in your heart towards me and your actions and your serving, etc. People need to hear that way more than maybe we even recognize as, you know, internally they're just ruminating on, I messed up. I failed. This thing that I did, you know, I said I wouldn't do it again and I did it again.

You know, I set out to do this and I didn't do it again. Like, there's just so much of Satan in our minds. And how can we be conduits of encouragement in the midst of that? I like that. And Dave, like what you said, to give your spouse or your kids or friends a couple compliments or things that you see in them. Oh, she does this all the time.

Strangers in an airport. You are the most life-giving, encouraging person. When I'm free, when I don't have my eyes on myself. But I think what, Esther, what you just said is so true. Because in a sense, there's like this shame-based sin DNA in every human soul. Most people, I'd say, and again, I'm not a researcher, psychologist, I would say nine out of ten people walk around thinking I'm worthless.

I messed up today many times and nobody knows, but I know. And so there's, it's part of the sin nature is I'm a wretch. And the truth is, we are. The Bible says we are wretched men and women, so that's true, but we never get past that.

It's like we live there and stay there. But in Christ, he says, you're my daughter, you're a son of the king of kings, a daughter of the king of kings. That's who you are now. Yes, you're a wretch, but you are redeemed. And so we need people around us, like you said, to walk up and say, here's what I see in you.

Do you see this greatness in you? Those people are going to follow you around like a puppy dog, because nobody's saying that to them. They're, you know, highlighting what they already believe about themselves.

Yeah, you really messed up there. But when somebody comes in and speaks the words of life, I think the words of God to them to say, here's what I see greatness in you, we follow them. We're drawn to that like a man. And I think that's why Jesus had sinners around him, is he knew they were sinners, and he called that out, but he also said, do you realize what's available to you?

I am available to you, and I can transform that heart to a heart of gold. As we finish, Esther, like what are the spiritual disciplines that you've put in place in your life or that we can put in that really we're taking those thoughts captive and we remember who we are in Christ? Yeah, so I think scripture reading is huge. I don't necessarily walk away from every Bible reading devotional time feeling wowed and like my whole life and heart is reoriented.

I don't. What I'm realizing now as I grow older is if I'm not spending time in scripture, how much I slip back into a default mode of thinking and seeing of myself and other people. And when I am in scripture, even if I'm not walking away with huge revelations of like my life has changed because of it, there's still this like daily dosage of reorientation that I need to be like, this isn't how God sees me.

This isn't his posture. I'm not alone. I'm not walking through this wilderness by myself. There's someone with me. There is someone who invites me to himself.

And so it's crazy. I think, you know, even the illusion earlier to spiritual warfare, how much does he get a voice in my mind? And if I know that he is always coming with lies and deception about who I am, about my life, how much more do I need even that snippet of truth to correct that and reorient that? And so scripture reading, whether it's life transformative or feels like that or not, I feel like that's been a huge means of grace in my own life.

That's good. And I think, you know, not a lot of people are going to be fans, but I will certainly say that journaling or taking any time for self-reflection, whatever that looks like, whether it's writing it, you know, handwritten in a journal or it's digital journaling or even a conversation with a friend. But building in times for reflection because shame so often takes root and runs our lives without us even realizing it. So for us to take a step back and be like, why was I so angry in that moment? Like, why did I was clearly losing my temper during that meeting?

Like, what was that? And being able to sometimes say like, wow, they were hitting at something that matters to me. Like they were like, I value myself being competent. And when they said that in the meeting, I felt like my competence was attacked.

You're totally triggered. Yeah. And to realize like, wow, there's something deeper going on in me rather than rushing past it and just, you know, zooming past it and busy-ness. There's something about taking that time to be like, what was it about that? Or that, yeah, that argument with my husband, with my wife, why did I lose it there? Why was that conversation so hard for me? And oftentimes being able to identify the shame that was underlying it.

It's because this is a standard that I feel like I'm meeting successfully and now they're threatening that perceived success that I have. So journaling any opportunities for self-reflection. And I do feel like, you know, what we've talked about here as well. Shame at the end of the day, there's a relational aspect to it. And so the more we can be in community with people who can speak truth into our lives, which doesn't necessarily mean they're just going to feed us with compliments and affirmation all the time. But people who can say, I know you, there's space for you here, and I'm still going to love you, essentially reflecting the heart of Christ who's saying there's a place for you, for people like you in my kingdom.

You might feel disqualified, you might feel unworthy to be accepted and loved, and you might not feel good enough, but there's a place for you here. And His earthly ministry and all of His ministry encapsulates that heart. A disqualified people realizing that they are accepted and loved, chosen and received and invited in by a Savior. And so the more that we can be with people and prize that when shame tempts us to isolation and shame tempts us to hide and cover up and pretend instead of bringing our true selves, our broken yet glorious, you know, treasured selves to one another. I do feel like there's something beautiful that God can do in the context of community. Individually reading scripture and engaging with God can only take us so far, but if there are people in our lives who can reflect the heart of Christ, and maybe that starts with us being someone who reflects the heart of Christ to others. It's not that easy to find a community like this, but maybe you knowing that you are loved and treasured by God can be the first one to be that person to create space for other strugglers, to be that person who says there's a place for you here.

Maybe that can expand into a greater community that can do the same for you as well. So three days with Esther Liu. What do you think about shame? Oh, I think that it's good to talk about it. I think it's good to figure out how we're dealing with it, but I'm kind of excited right now because we have a couple guests in the studio.

We have our audio engineer, Bruce Goff. Have you ever been on air? Not on Family Life today. No?

No, I don't think so. This is pretty cool. You're in there doing the sliders and making us sound better than we really are. And Jim Mitchell, our producer, you guys are both sitting in here. I'm so quiet in here. I'm used to you so much louder. These guys are so good.

They could be on our radio podcast every day and it would be phenomenal. I feel like we're good in that room. I don't know that we're good in this room. No, you guys are going to be great in this room. Bruce was on real life loading, though. You should check out. We can arm, what is it, armchair quarterback?

So good in that other room. Most people can. They don't know what it's like in the middle of the parade.

It's a different deal. But I always wonder when I look through the glass, like they're in there talking about us. I wonder what they're saying.

And today we're going to sort of find out. You had some comments based on what Esther was saying. I guess you have a story? About one of your daughters. Yeah, our five-year-old daughter's kind of dealing with some shame. Well, how old are your girls? Eight, five, and two. Yeah.

And so our middle girl, Glow, she just broke down and confessed to my wife, Maria, the other day. I wasn't there. Hey, Bruce, just in case you're wondering, you need to have your voice on the mic.

Is this good? Yeah, this is not to help you out. You know sort of what our audio engineer usually does? I think he kind of knows more than we do. Where was I?

Go back. As a good host, you just got me totally off my train of thought. Let me just say, can I just add real quick that when we sit in there and listen to these programs, the best programs are the ones that get us talking in the other room, and they get us like pressure testing it and pushing back and asking questions. And this three-day series on shame really intrigued us. And Bruce had told me this story about Glow coming in and talking to Maria. And I thought, you need to tell the audience about this.

You need to tell Dave and Ann in the audience about this little exchange he had with Glow. So, Gloria goes in. She's talking to your wife, Maria. Yeah, and she's just overwhelmed with guilt and saying, I should get spankings because I lied to my friends.

I lied to Estelle, my older sister. And then she's like, she had more to say, and she didn't want to say it. And she was so scared. And Maria was like, you can tell me what is it?

And all those times when I come in in the middle of the night and say that I had a bad dream, I didn't have a bad dream. I just wanted to snuggle. And she's in tears. She's in tears? In tears. And she's like, so I need a spanking now, right? And just like so ashamed of herself. He got me in tears. But Maria just knocked it out of the park from what she was telling me and just said, it's so good that you told me this.

I'm so glad you told me because if we keep it inside, it just rots and it's terrible. And I'm not going to spank you. I'm so glad you told me that was so brave of you.

Way to go. And just hugged her. And it was awesome.

And then Jim was pointing out, like, the bigger picture there is not just that, I mean, it's great that she confessed her sin, but just the love that Maria and I have for her as our daughter. It was, we want to snuggle with you. You don't have to lie to us to get us to snuggle with you. Maybe at three in the morning you do. You don't have any idea how much we want to snuggle with you.

And let's make sure we're getting enough of those during the day. And so this doesn't diminish my love for you at all. And I don't know, you summed it up better than I did. I think there is, as we think about shame, there is some truth there to you did lie to us. So you don't want to discount that. Every instinct I can see your face in, every instinct is to snatch that little glow up in your arms and say it's okay. There's nothing to think about.

But there is something there that she's convicted by. But that is such, I think about God and you and Bruce, you're a father of, you're a girl dad, you're a father of three. You're learning about your relationship with God by raising these girls. And I feel like raising my kids, you get these moments where you realize that is such a small part, the confession of I lied to you about having a bad dream. The bigger picture, and I got chill bumps when you told me the story, is thinking about a God who, yes, I'll deal with that, but you have no idea how much I want to cuddle with you too. And I built that into you.

Come anytime and snuggle with me. I think the whole idea of telling the truth, God wants us to tell the truth. That's confession. It is confession. And His grace is overwhelming.

Like, great job, Maria. Yes. On, you heard the confession, she told the truth, and then you thanked her for it, told her how brave she was, but then the grace just envelops. And that, isn't it beautiful? That even if we have shame, God's grace envelops us. Yes.

Draws us in. Give Him the shame. Yeah. He will take it. Yeah. So don't act like it's not there. Give it to Him. And she told Gloria, and the Bible says, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

We confess it, we turn from it, and we trust in Jesus. Thank you, Glo. That's so good. And so, yeah, I was so proud of Maria as well as Glo. Now go back to your room and go to sleep.

Yeah, now what are you doing? I mean, here's one last thought from me is, like, that's a masterclass in parenting. But I also think there's some parents listening that didn't do a good job with that moment, and they feel beat up.

Do they carry shame? And I just want to say, yeah, I want to say, just go back to your son or daughter and say, hey, I messed up that moment. Here's what I wanted, and I should say, you know, grace is all over you as well. Because I think sometimes we hear stories about great parenting moments, like, I'm such a loser. It's like, yeah, we all make mistakes. I guarantee, you know, you have, she has, but, you know, there's grace that covers those mistakes.

Yeah, I share our one success story. But it's so tempting to parent with shame instead of that. Isn't it? You know, it's so much easier to say, why did you do that? And shame them and think that that's going to produce the right change. So, yeah, we've made many mistakes.

And you're right, though, same thing, though, for parents. Give that shame to Jesus. Tell the truth. Confess it.

God will meet you right there. You know, I love hearing the quote unquote real life responses from others just like you and me after the professional has been in the room. This kind of stuff related to shame is something all of us have come eye to eye with in our lives, and particularly in our parenting.

So what Dave was saying there at the end, just own it. Confess it to God and to any family members you need to, and then live in the grace that Jesus offers to us by his blood, by his sacrifice. We experience that grace, so let's live in it.

I love that. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Esther Liu on Family Life Today. Esther's written a book called Shame, Being Known and Loved. And don't we all want to be known and loved? We want to be known to our depths, and God knows us to our depths, and he loves us to the stars at the same time.

Esther's written a book about that, and so there's no room for shame, and she'll help us to flesh that out of what that looks like, not only living in the boundless grace that God offers us, but practical advice and wisdom as well. So you can request your copy by going online right now to familylifetoday.com, where you can find it in our show notes. Or give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. We're winding down here at the end of the month of May, and it is a special month for us here at Family Life Today because thanks to some generous donors, every gift that you give will be matched dollar for dollar up to, get this, $550,000. So yes, any gift that you give right now is going to be doubled all month long up to $550,000. If you want to learn a little bit more about what that looks like, you can go online to familylifetoday.com and click on the donate now button at the top of the page. And when you do give as our thank you, we're going to send you a copy of Chris and Elizabeth McKinney's book called Neighborhoods Reimagined. In addition to that, if you become a monthly partner, you'll get to participate in our new online community and be part of the conversation here at Family Life, including a live Facebook event that's going to be happening with me and the Wilsons on June the 5th. Again, all the details of that are going to be found at familylifetoday.com. Now coming up next week, the one and only Phillip Yancey is going to be joining Dave and Ann Wilson in the studio to talk about what's so amazing about Grace. Looking forward to hearing from him for sure. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.